338 action
- Thread starter Crs89
- Start date
Well after looking them up and reviewing their info ( I had never heard of them). I would say I dont like the non-integrated recoil lug and optic rail. I myself have a 300 Norma built on a Defiance Deviant so I am biased. I have several other Defiance action guns as well. I would also look at Terminus or possibly Impact, I really like their actions as well. I just dont know if a Impact is available in the right bolt face for a 338 build.
I built my .300NM (same bolt face size) on a Defiance Deviant that I had polished and DLC'ed.
It's been a great action for this purpose. Certainly an option worth considering.
The Surgeon 1581XL is a great action, but it does require a larger shank size for barrels, limiting your barrel blank options. The inlet is proprietary, so it limits chassis/stock options as well. Lone Peak Fuzion is worth considering - my wife has the short action version, and it's an excellent action. ARC Mausingfield is another contender - the short action version is the action on my main rifle, also excellent.
I believe BAT Machine also makes some .338 bolt face actions - more popular amongst the benchrest crowd, probably won't hear much about them on here. Can't say I know much about BAT, except I know their quality is supposed to be top notch.
It's been a great action for this purpose. Certainly an option worth considering.
The Surgeon 1581XL is a great action, but it does require a larger shank size for barrels, limiting your barrel blank options. The inlet is proprietary, so it limits chassis/stock options as well. Lone Peak Fuzion is worth considering - my wife has the short action version, and it's an excellent action. ARC Mausingfield is another contender - the short action version is the action on my main rifle, also excellent.
I believe BAT Machine also makes some .338 bolt face actions - more popular amongst the benchrest crowd, probably won't hear much about them on here. Can't say I know much about BAT, except I know their quality is supposed to be top notch.
I'll let you know when I get mine for my new 37XC build - it's getting coated now, and I should have it in another month and change.
BAT M is a fine action. Single shot, but rigid as hell. Makes a great platform for 338 Improved and a long barrel.
I’ve always wanted a surgeon 1581XL or badger 2013.
If your really wanting push it hard a bigger diameter tenon is a plus.
Mausingfield is another I’d like to get.
Plenty have good luck with the defiance and stiller.
I went with a 338 edge instead of lapua or Norma so I could use my nucleus action but your not going to run it as a repeater unless you have a 4.15-4.25+“ oal capacity.
Hands down Surgeon XL. Try to stay with a action body of 1.450. I had the start of bolt lug setback on one of the above mentioned actions w 1.350 action body in 338 AI.
I've heard that the smaller lug abutments on some actions (say Defiance) can cause you to pressure out earlier with these more stout cartridges (.300NM+).
I personally don't understand why that's the case, or if it really is an actual issue over a theoretical one. I've talked to more then a few people on this subject, and all opinions vary. I do know that my .300NM pressures out earlier then some other people's .300NM rifles, but I also know that every rifle and barrel is different.
However, I certainly can see how the higher bolt thrust on these smaller actions could potentially cause issues with lug setback, as you've experienced.
No doubt, the Surgeon XL seems like a fine action for this purpose. However, there are constraints on barrel blanks (require a larger then normal shank OD) and stocks/chassis (proprietary inlet).
I just checked out the stiller shop. I have 2 of their actions and appreciated the craftsmanship and tolerances before. Now that I saw how much individual attention each receiver is given, that appreciation is a lot deeper. I'm sure all of the companies do the same or close to it, but to see it in person was amazing.
Interesting.
It's been a while since I've handled a Stiller, but was never impressed with them. Rough machining and pretty course/gritty feeling actions.
Perhaps they've improved in quality.
Legit watched the guy who finishes the action/bolt fitting use a finger to work the action open and close. There's a joke in there somewhere, but the action ran insanely smooth.
My .300NM is built on a Stiller Tac 338 action and I have nothing bad to say about it. Runs great.
I ordered a Mausingfield M7 for a .338 Norma Build I am doing, everyone says they are indestructible. Hoping to have it by Jan!
They are really nice.
You’ll like 338 Norma as well, not the fastest but super easy to load for.
I went with a Borden Denali (single shot version of his Bigfoot action). I chose this action because the lugs are bigger and it has a bigger action diameter. To withstand the pressure associated with the larger rounds.
Take a look into the Kelbly Atlas 338 action, my Atlas Tacticals feed rocks and spit lighting!
That said, my Defiance and Stiller actions are sweet pieces of kit too!
That said, my Defiance and Stiller actions are sweet pieces of kit too!
It’s my friends.
300 Berger or ATip
2550 with a 20” barrel and 2825 with a 32” with H1000.
Fairly mild as it’s on a 700 action and the 32” is brand new.
Something to consider...
Lug engagement area is important but almost all of the actions normally used have more than enough including the actions with 1.350" diameter receivers.
Look at the bolt lug engagement on the iconic TRG-42. The engagement is tiny yet this rifle has a long history of excellent service in harsh use.
ALSO, the TRG-42s use barrel contours with the breech diameter WAY smaller than even the average .308s, 6.5CMs and 6Dashers you use every day.
Look at the bolt lug engagement on the A.I. rifles. The surface area is actually small compared to some yet it has a long history of excellent service in harsh use.
Another thing to consider....
Everybody throws out "the pressures of the .338 LM or .300 Norma.
Their standard SAAMI/CIP operating pressures are no higher than most cartridges you see across the board. Some may even surprise you.
EX: 270 Win. @ 65K
300 RUM @ 65K
300 Win Mag @ 64K
338 Lapua Magnum @ 65K
300 Norma Magnum @ 61 to 64K
So using some people's logic, we should all be using huge actions even on the .270 Winchester.
If anyone was getting deformation in the lugs or lug seats, the action had incorrect heat treat or the ammo was way over spec pressure max.
I have quite a few magnum rifles in circulation using the .338LM, 338NM and 300NM with zero issues. Some are on Surgeon XL, a few are on the Badger M2013 and most are on Defiance built actions. No action or headspace issues even after some rotating back in for 2nd or 3rd re-barreling.
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Lug engagement area is important but almost all of the actions normally used have more than enough including the actions with 1.350" diameter receivers.
Look at the bolt lug engagement on the iconic TRG-42. The engagement is tiny yet this rifle has a long history of excellent service in harsh use.
ALSO, the TRG-42s use barrel contours with the breech diameter WAY smaller than even the average .308s, 6.5CMs and 6Dashers you use every day.
Look at the bolt lug engagement on the A.I. rifles. The surface area is actually small compared to some yet it has a long history of excellent service in harsh use.
Another thing to consider....
Everybody throws out "the pressures of the .338 LM or .300 Norma.
Their standard SAAMI/CIP operating pressures are no higher than most cartridges you see across the board. Some may even surprise you.
EX: 270 Win. @ 65K
300 RUM @ 65K
300 Win Mag @ 64K
338 Lapua Magnum @ 65K
300 Norma Magnum @ 61 to 64K
So using some people's logic, we should all be using huge actions even on the .270 Winchester.
If anyone was getting deformation in the lugs or lug seats, the action had incorrect heat treat or the ammo was way over spec pressure max.
I have quite a few magnum rifles in circulation using the .338LM, 338NM and 300NM with zero issues. Some are on Surgeon XL, a few are on the Badger M2013 and most are on Defiance built actions. No action or headspace issues even after some rotating back in for 2nd or 3rd re-barreling.
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LOL......
Unfortunately you are not incorrect sir.
Sometimes I believe Frank should add another Forum section just for links to plastic surgery and facial reconstruction specialists with a sub-section for links to On-Line Wills and Morgues.
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Terry,
what do you think of bore rider throats and there affect on velocity? for 338 norma or any cartridge for that matter!
Thanks,
It's interesting that there's differing opinions from gunsmiths on this topic.
The first time I've heard of issues with the larger cartridges and "standard" lugs is from a gunsmith(?)/cartridge developer(?) (and no, I'm not referencing @THEIS) here on SH in the ELR forum. This individual has even suggested that "regular" sized lugs in cartridges such as .300NM and up will even cause you to pressure out earlier, then say if you had an action with larger lugs such as the Surgeon. I personally don't understand the mechanism that would make this so.
In my own curiosity, I've reached out to gunsmiths and ELR shooters, but haven't received a consensus or even a proper explanation on how this could be. Most have the same position as yourself, that it's a non-issue. And I don't believe I've had anyone besides this one SH member believe that smaller lugs can cause pressure issues. In fact, most I talked to haven't even heard of such a thing. I'm still baffled to this day by the hypothesis of smaller lugs causing you to pressure out earlier then larger lugs, and if or how it could be true.
And you bring up a good point, pressure is pressure. Perhaps the issue is not so much the cartridge itself, but the fact that for ELR for example, people have a propensity to push those cartridges harder and harder to keep pushing the limit. It doesn't really matter in PRS where your projectile ends up transitioning into subsonic, but it very much does so for ELR. An extra ~100 fps will extend that range, and some will certainly be more dismissive of pressure signs to optimize down range performance in such cases.
In the case of pushing a cartridge to its upper limit, I guess having bigger lugs is better then smaller lugs. If you stay within appropriate pressure ranges, I imagine the discussion is much more academic then it is practical. I personally enjoy my face, so I will continue to keep my cartridges below any pressure thresholds.
I’m sure quality and spec of metals used is a big factor.
Then you have the smaller amount of material surrounding the cartridge with a lapua boltface cartridge versus a 308 or magnum boltface cartridge in the common 1.35 action with a 1-1.125 tenon and 1.25 barrel.
I can say a load that ran like butter in my custom action(Nuke) had sticky bolt lift when that barrel was put in my savage with identical headspace.
Lots of people run 585 boltface cartridges in 1.35 actions but if you want to get extra sporty with them a stouter and/or thicker action/barrel shank is certainly something I’d consider
