Par times are very interesting. Seems easier than multiple targets(sizes at the same distances) for an MD, just a bit of a learning curve to setup the scoring. We have been looking how to get a better product for new shooters, yet still have a challenge for the standard competitors.
Rifle Competition Events What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?
- Thread starter THEIS
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Exactly
Not had a chance to shoot PRS over here but done plenty clays up to European and World Champs. Fitasc is kinda similar idea to PRS but with flying targets.
Classifications give everybody a competition. They also let you work out which targets are for the big boys and are a "bonus" for you so you can manage your game/expectations and work out the development plan afterwards. BUT there have to be targets for everybody. Nobody likes a zero on a layout.
Nothing is perfect though and we need a central system to manage classifications, not that hard but it is some effort as, guess what, shooters try to game the system to shoot in B when really A and preserve their ego by hanging onto an A when its not really deserved.
They get 800 guys going to the Worlds and there are only 20 guys that can realistically win it but the classes mean we don't feel like we are just there to make the shoot commercially viable.
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Personally, I'd like to see the elimination in the use of electronics of any kind on the range. Range finders and ballistic calculators are cool and all, but it seems to me that technology is replacing talent to a large degree.
Guys who live where its convenient to calibrate, validate and re-validate Kestrels have a clear advantage over those that don't. Working off paper, visual clues and experience are cheated out by these devices.
I understand it is counter to technological progress, but it places an emphasis on real talent and punishes mimicry.
Guys who live where its convenient to calibrate, validate and re-validate Kestrels have a clear advantage over those that don't. Working off paper, visual clues and experience are cheated out by these devices.
I understand it is counter to technological progress, but it places an emphasis on real talent and punishes mimicry.
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Welcome to 15 years ago. Find a time machine. Once the cats out of the bag it’s not going back in. Lol
I agree. Also eliminate those pesky scopes and use only irons and black powder weapon systems. Anything else is just cheating.
One of the ranges by me that does PRS Rimfire competitions has a 'Yankee Squirrel Gun' division for dudes with irons and 3x scopes on lever guns and shit. It looks like a blast
Hit factor scoring fixes all those issues with simpler calculation as a bonus since Practicescore does it automatically. Or you can do one simple division operation with a calculator.
I know all the guys that win the matches I have shot in actually suck behind the rifle but technology is the reason they win...LMFAO! These are all different tools that go into the toolbox and they all need to be learned before they are of any use.
Not su
sure if your being sarcastic or not, but if the guys behind the gun suck at shooting, your going to the wrong matches. Guys or gals that win consistently don't suck at shooting, and spend alot of time practicing and yes using the tools they have to help them, smart
A bunch of years ago, I went and did a Badlands 44 hour match where you were out for 44 hours straight, moving, land nav, OPFOR, etc, (before you say it's cool, it was a clusterfuck designed to cheat by their preferred team)
Anyway, Bobby knowing I would be coming with "electronics" was just at Rifles Only running the Horus software, and what he did was claim an EMP hit Okie and no electronics would work -- completely designed to limit me as the only one with software at the time, you had two choices, Horus or ExBal
Anyway, it made no difference, electronics do nothing for the shooter but manage their dope, especially if they travel which people are not traveling as they used to. We have plenty of matches where guys are not constantly getting on planes like before.
Software is not a divider but it can hurt people who rely on it and don't have it set up correctly
Anyway, Bobby knowing I would be coming with "electronics" was just at Rifles Only running the Horus software, and what he did was claim an EMP hit Okie and no electronics would work -- completely designed to limit me as the only one with software at the time, you had two choices, Horus or ExBal
Anyway, it made no difference, electronics do nothing for the shooter but manage their dope, especially if they travel which people are not traveling as they used to. We have plenty of matches where guys are not constantly getting on planes like before.
Software is not a divider but it can hurt people who rely on it and don't have it set up correctly
Frank or others, do you know if this scoring system can be used with PractiScore or any other app based programs? I would like to try this scoring system at a match of mine, but I use kindle tablets with PractiScore to make life easier for me and to avoid math mistakes.
I have only shot in one match. It was a Texas carbine match in Corpus Christi Texas. A buddy and I went and helped set up the day before. We got to see the 5 stages before hand. Because we helped we paid $10 instead of $20. We squaded up with a guy we worked with who used to shoot real heavy. He used to be on here years ago. Had a good time and learned a ton. We set up Saturday afternoon and shot on Sunday. Started around 10 and got done around 2.
It might have been cool if all the guys who helped set up got to shoot it Sunday. There were 5 stages and it took us 4 hours to hit them all. I think there were probably 15 guys who set up. We could have all run through the stages had a little extra shooting time after setup on Sunday. I understand that shooting the stages before hand could be "gaming" the match, but we werent there to be competitive, just to try it out, learn and have fun.
When I lived in upstate NY I went to the dragstrip on Wednesday night for "test and tune night". We paid to get on the drag strip and ran 3-5 runs for $20. We got a slip with our reaction times, MPH 60 foot 1/8 and 1/4 mile times and speeds. Maybe have a class that you could get in and shoot and have a score but not be competing for money and prizes?
Maybe the guys who are legit badasses and are going to win the match could get split up and each have a squad that they run and mentor? I would be willing to pay some type of instruction fee to have someone walk through a stage and tell me how and why they would shoot it the way they do.
Ive never been to a PRS match. I think I'd really like it, but it seems from the match that I did go to that you spend a lot of time not shooting. I liked helping set up and pasting targets and that stuff too. But I'd like to shoot more.
Maybe I would help setup the day before, and then shoot with the guys who run the match, and then do a job all day of the match, then shoot again after people shoot for money and prizes?
It might have been cool if all the guys who helped set up got to shoot it Sunday. There were 5 stages and it took us 4 hours to hit them all. I think there were probably 15 guys who set up. We could have all run through the stages had a little extra shooting time after setup on Sunday. I understand that shooting the stages before hand could be "gaming" the match, but we werent there to be competitive, just to try it out, learn and have fun.
When I lived in upstate NY I went to the dragstrip on Wednesday night for "test and tune night". We paid to get on the drag strip and ran 3-5 runs for $20. We got a slip with our reaction times, MPH 60 foot 1/8 and 1/4 mile times and speeds. Maybe have a class that you could get in and shoot and have a score but not be competing for money and prizes?
Maybe the guys who are legit badasses and are going to win the match could get split up and each have a squad that they run and mentor? I would be willing to pay some type of instruction fee to have someone walk through a stage and tell me how and why they would shoot it the way they do.
Ive never been to a PRS match. I think I'd really like it, but it seems from the match that I did go to that you spend a lot of time not shooting. I liked helping set up and pasting targets and that stuff too. But I'd like to shoot more.
Maybe I would help setup the day before, and then shoot with the guys who run the match, and then do a job all day of the match, then shoot again after people shoot for money and prizes?
So IDK PRS. I have never heard of any events around me. There is a range that opened up in the area a couple years ago but I never hear of matches. I would love to participate in local matches, but again just dont hear of them. There needs to be more recruiting.
I think you could run a "handicap" system like the do in roping. Your a #1 roper to a #10 roper. Prizes are given to the top 3 in each division they increase or decrease in value by division. Could be 5 divisions or 8 or 3 it doesnt matter. If the top shooters want cash you can offer a side pot paid into at entry or charge more entry as the divisions get more talented and do an entry payout system. It doesn't matter if a 1 shooter is in the same squad as a 10 as long as the scores can be separated. Everybody is vetted into their division from previous experience or they start at a low-mid division. A certain amount of points scored at a match can move you up or down a division.
The lower divisions have extra time on the same targets, or have 2 targets hanging side by side larger for low divisions smaller for high divisions.
Have a reduced match for new shooters. Let them watch for half a day as a group, offer a group instructor, and have them shoot 5 easy stages at some point during the match just for fun. Alot of guys on here are told just to show up and watch a match, let them show up and shoot a few targets for 20 bucks.
If you want new shooters in the sport make it okay to come with 500 dollar rifles and 500 dollar scopes and compete against people with the same skills. They will want to improve to get to better payouts or prizes and have the opportunity to be competitive against people of their own skill level.
I think you could run a "handicap" system like the do in roping. Your a #1 roper to a #10 roper. Prizes are given to the top 3 in each division they increase or decrease in value by division. Could be 5 divisions or 8 or 3 it doesnt matter. If the top shooters want cash you can offer a side pot paid into at entry or charge more entry as the divisions get more talented and do an entry payout system. It doesn't matter if a 1 shooter is in the same squad as a 10 as long as the scores can be separated. Everybody is vetted into their division from previous experience or they start at a low-mid division. A certain amount of points scored at a match can move you up or down a division.
The lower divisions have extra time on the same targets, or have 2 targets hanging side by side larger for low divisions smaller for high divisions.
Have a reduced match for new shooters. Let them watch for half a day as a group, offer a group instructor, and have them shoot 5 easy stages at some point during the match just for fun. Alot of guys on here are told just to show up and watch a match, let them show up and shoot a few targets for 20 bucks.
If you want new shooters in the sport make it okay to come with 500 dollar rifles and 500 dollar scopes and compete against people with the same skills. They will want to improve to get to better payouts or prizes and have the opportunity to be competitive against people of their own skill level.
I think the sport will live or die with one day club matches. For most people, starting off at a two day match is a lot to ask. Especially considering that when you are new you will not do well and will have to show up on day two knowing you will get hammered for a second day. Local one day matches are great for learning with a lot less investment in travel, hotels, time etc. I don’t think we need a bunch of handicaps and categories to cater to new shooters. I think most people know that this is a demanding, complex sport and the veteran shooters are pretty good and therefore new shooters don’t get heart broken if they don’t make the podium. The same thing that makes people dislike anything or any organization is how they feel. Were they treated like crap, ignored, were the clicks of pros unwelcoming? I see it all the time. Newer shooters show up and no one takes them under their wing. People are too busy concentrating on their own match. It is frequently a lot worse if you have a couple pro or nearly pro level shooters in your squad. I think the only accommodation that should/could be incorporated is every match could have a newbie squad led by an experienced shooter. This squad would allow each shooter to take a second to set up on a position before the clock for learning purposes, then after time runs out the shooter can finish the string, also for learning purposes. Coaching on the clock would be allowed, giving wind call and elevation corrections on the clock would be allowed also. The “newbie” sqaud shooters are not eligible for podium since thwy are not shooting with the same rules as everyone else, but there could be a “winner” for that squad so they could get some recognition. After X number of matches shooters would have to shoot the rest of their matches on regular squads with normal rules etc.. Here is the kicker, who ever leads the newbie squad needs to be willing to be nice and a good coach, not some grumpy old creep looking to make people feel like crap. Thats it, people would learn and have fun and come back.
Exactly. Whos want to show up and get "hammered"? You let these guys compete against people at about their level and all of a sudden you dont have the segregation between pros and new guys, rec shooters, up and coming shooters. Would your 16 year old high school football player want to go get smashed by college or pro teams? Shoots can be limitted to people below mid grade, or people at a pro level. Nobody wants to show up spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to get their ass beat.
I ran a few Marathons when I was in my late 50s and expected to get "hammered." My first high power match 1970 or so... I had a rack grade M1-Garand, No dope, 100 rounds of brown box ball ammo, a cotton zippered jacket and some work gloves. It was at Cherry Point NC, it was a 1000 agg. The other shooters on the line all helped me out. I expected to get "hammered." The Navy team even gave me 6 boxes of of Match ammo and helped me get on target for each distance. All new shooters should be welcomed and made to feel at home. If they don't have any dope - help them as best as you can. Share the joy of the sport for the sake of the sport. Celebrate with the new guy - even if it is just the first time he got in the black or got contact, maybe with your help on the dope... In 1970 at Cherry Point I think I shot something in the 500s - Now after lots of help and a sense of belonging to the shooting family, I still have the M1 and (with thousands of dollars and years of practice and competition) a bunch of medals, trophies, and one National Civilian Record all because the shooting family made me feel like one of them. If your in a club - ask the leadership if you can organize something to help teach others how to get involved in your favorite shooting venue. Oh, yea... I got my ass beat often, and still do, but I still smile when I put 24 clicks of wind on or hold off in the 7 ring and then the spotter comes back up in the X ring! Oh yea.
I have not shot a PRS match yet, but am planning on my first in March. I competed in high power and long range for 10+ years, high master in both, and when I first heard about PRS two years ago, I was really excited. This is right up my alley. THEN.....I watched some matches on TV (Shooting USA) and thought.......WTF? These guys are carrying tripods, large backpack with lots of gear, Kestrel's/I Phones, etc./etc. I 'assumed' it was a rifle/bag competition. I was wrong. Now, obviously I'm not a beginner shooter, but my 1 recommendation would be a separate class: rifle/bipod attached, one small carry bag for support and a small backpack for water/snacks/etc. Call it the 'Bob Lee Swagger' class. I believe it might be successful. Am I intimidated by showing up like that? Absolutely not. I'm setting up an old high power rifle (M700 all trued up/Krieger/etc) and am planning on showing up and having fun.
After being new to PRS, and then now having a few matches under my belt, sadly, the main thing I've gleaned is that right now the sport seems to be filled with apologists who'd rather go with the flow and not upset the apple cart, rather than make things better by pointing out the differences between deficiencies that need to be worked on, and things that are just plain part of a larger grift that's taking place.
Thankfully, I found out about the Guardian matches... going forward that is where I'll be spending most my money and time when it comes to rifle matches.
Thankfully, I found out about the Guardian matches... going forward that is where I'll be spending most my money and time when it comes to rifle matches.
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there's also a lot of guys who shoot with 1 bipod and 1 bag (normally a gamechanger) and win matches
the kestrel/phone is kinda necessary for ballistics though
tripod for spotting kinda necessary
not every match has tripod rear support and 4 bags as even a possibility. depends on the MD and the stages
How about shooting a match first and then see what can be changed LOL Seriously you can carry what you want. I don't carry a tripod. I always have my phone anyways so I have it for data if needed but always run paper back ups as I have for almost two decades in matches. Carry my pack with the gear I need for the match as I have also for those years. Don't let what Shooting USA shows as a "has to be like this" test. Only thing I would say is a must is a DBM on the rifle.
Don't know which one you're going to shoot in March but maybe you could try a club series match first, those are 1 day matches. Much more low key than two day and a lot less money also.
where do you live?
Looks like you should get a range going in Red Bluff
Sac Valley. https://www.sacvalley.org/
Here is a link to their site.
ncpprc.com
Here is a link to their site.
NorCal Practical Precision Rifle Club
Welcome to the NorCal Practical Precision Rifle Club (NCPPRC). Our mission is to provide events where the serious practical/tactical precision rifle shooter can test their skills and abilities in a safe and controlled environment. These competitions will give precision rifle shooters an arena to...
ncpprc.com Just visited the site and that is the range I shot at for 10+ years, but....I turned one of my Palma rigs into a 'PRS' rig by a stock swap and adding a scope. It's a 223 and their site says 6mm-30 cal. Guess I'm SOL, or....
If it’s a PRS match then .223 is allowed in Tac Division. Might want to check before you change anything.
Email Jason
[email protected]
Or look up them on PractiScore.
Tehama, NorNev, SLO snd Avenal all have the lowest key 1 days. NorCal is cool but a bit tighter wound. Camping is available at Avenal so that can be a value on a long drive.
Edited to add - NorNev has BLM camping just a 1 mile or so on the same road. Just use OnX or something to ensure your not on the Res.
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I would eliminate the prize table.
I would make ALL shooting organizations into a corporate structure where every member had a vote. The politics going on in USPSA right now are a really big deal, and I hope we as members will be able to preserve the organization from the few people who seek to run it into the ground.
I would make ALL shooting organizations into a corporate structure where every member had a vote. The politics going on in USPSA right now are a really big deal, and I hope we as members will be able to preserve the organization from the few people who seek to run it into the ground.
The problem with starting a competing series is it just waters down the already sparse regional matches. You will have to choose which series your range will affiliate with, then you lose a fair amount of shooters having to choose between series. Just my opinion.
I agree with this to a point, I dont feel we should reward for participation. You win you get the trophy end of story, one of the biggest failures in our society has been rewarding mediocrity such as giving every little league football player a trophy, the best team should get the trophies everyone else should strive to be better.
With that said, I only belive that should apply to national 2 day Pro matches, if you wanna go hit with the sluggers and you get spanked, well you made that choice. BUT,,, Pros that shoot regional PRS matches should not be able to claim prizes, You dont have Mike Tyson go to the local boxing gym and beat the hell out of everyone and give him a trophy.
Regional matches are for the middle 80 percent, National level matches, well boys better pull up your boots, and be ready to work.
Why not? It’s a sanctioned PRS regional match. Not a kindergarten class. You are rewarding mediocrity by doing that. People pay their money and they should be able to go out on an even field to compete. It’s not like your reference. It’s a competition but yes some people will do well and some won’t. That’s life. My shooting has not been up to par of years past for many reasons and I am down on the board at the end of the day but I wouldn’t want to be higher basing it on a curve. I think I said that earlier in this post.
Honestly, if we just had classes separated just by realistic weight classes like ultralight/hunter under 10lbs, heavy/16lbs and under, and pro/open unlimited weight and all with slightly lower round counts (also were mimicked in the 1-day matches) you'd probably see more people entering the sport.
While you could have a points leader for each class at the end of the year, the Pro/Open could be the only class that had the finals, this would eliminate the silliness and games with the production series and TAC class.
Most production rifles are sold to hunters and are NOT the specialty PRS production rifle builds, the production class is nothing more than a loophole today. As such the barrier to enter would be lower for most folks if the weight was far similar to most starter rifles.
Tac and LEO shooters along with some of the less expensive PRS rifles like the Ruger and Tikka be right at home as is in the 16 and underclass.
The guys like me who have spent gobs on their rifles, that are too heavy, shooting tiny calibers and game-specific, would need to shoot the pro/unlimited class- too bad if Jake is shooting next to you - right? I built the gun for that class, so simple; if I want to win in that class, I need to get better or go back to a less competitive class.
PS every weight class I have seen proposed is massaged around someone's favorite "production" rifle. If you keep doing that, you'd end up defeating the entire point. As an example, an AI might be a "production" rifle, but it is anything but what one might buy at Sportmart or their local gun store. Let the AI use a lighter scope and compete in the same class as the Tikka and Rugger, or load up on weight and go, pro/open class.
While you could have a points leader for each class at the end of the year, the Pro/Open could be the only class that had the finals, this would eliminate the silliness and games with the production series and TAC class.
Most production rifles are sold to hunters and are NOT the specialty PRS production rifle builds, the production class is nothing more than a loophole today. As such the barrier to enter would be lower for most folks if the weight was far similar to most starter rifles.
Tac and LEO shooters along with some of the less expensive PRS rifles like the Ruger and Tikka be right at home as is in the 16 and underclass.
The guys like me who have spent gobs on their rifles, that are too heavy, shooting tiny calibers and game-specific, would need to shoot the pro/unlimited class- too bad if Jake is shooting next to you - right? I built the gun for that class, so simple; if I want to win in that class, I need to get better or go back to a less competitive class.
PS every weight class I have seen proposed is massaged around someone's favorite "production" rifle. If you keep doing that, you'd end up defeating the entire point. As an example, an AI might be a "production" rifle, but it is anything but what one might buy at Sportmart or their local gun store. Let the AI use a lighter scope and compete in the same class as the Tikka and Rugger, or load up on weight and go, pro/open class.
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I have not shot a PRS/NRL match yet (planning too next year...in the process of putting a rifle together), but have competed in high power, long range, and small bore, and all those disciplines have classifications based on your percentage....your score vs perfect score (not high score), e.g. in high power if you shoot a 755 out of 800 gives you a 94% classification, which puts the shooter in 'master' class. 97+% gives you a high master classification (highest) and there are 5 classifications. So, at any high power match, masters shoot against masters, high masters against high masters, and marksmen (lowest classification) shoot against marksmen. And the same classifications are all squaded together so that they shoot in the 'same conditions'....a HUGE deal in this game. Meaning, masters shoot at the same time as all the other masters, so a change in the weather doesn't give one group of masters a advantage. Long range and small bore have a slightly different % classification, but you get the drift. AND....I'm assuming that PRS does not have a classification system, which, quite frankly makes no sense. But then.....I've never fired a PRS match....yet.
But a pro shooting against and in the amateur bracket which is what regional matches should be viewed as isn’t a level playing field. I’m not saying and should get a break in pro matches but I am saying pros shouldn’t be able to benefit with prizes in am matches
So how is high power doing today? Across the West at least, it is almost dead as to what it was like 20 years ago. Show up to many of these disciplines and you only see a few competitors, many are no longer even being offered or at least not nearly as often. Too many classes and not enough shooters for sure. The caveat is in parts of the country where you have huge mil bases (ie Camp Perry, etc).
Not sure why one would want to duplicate this.
Why not? They spent their money to go to the match and practice and spent time getting better. So you saying it’s not fair? Maybe everyone should get a trophy to feel better? Lol sorry that’s BS. Show up and shoot and the chips land where they may.
I listened to the modern day sniper they had on the WyCO and WPR on they have a 3 class system set up that allows like talent to measure against each other. This is where it needs to go, a very simple handicap system.
Do formula 1 drivers race against guys driving a Maveric?
Do pro golfers use a handicap against each other? Can I walk off the street and enter a pro match?
The first thing that needs to happen is to segregate realistically the equipment. No way someone other than a guy with real means is going to start with a full-blown customer or the new 22LBS AI-X with a ZCO. Handicapped or not, the rifle system plays a huge role. Once that gets sorted, sure roll in a club-level ranking system if the club is big enough. I think what you see, is the weight class will solve much of that already.
This is one of the few sports the consumer easily has formula 1 class equipment if they just drop down a couple of $$ and part of the actual issue. A 30lbs rifle with a 6br with another 7lbs sandbag ATTACHED to the rail, doesn't perform even close to the real entry-level system because we've put so much emphasis on speed between shots.
Enter with a formula 1, drive against the best.
PS I am not arguing that some sort of ranking would be bad, especially at the club level, just the equipment categories are a complete cluster how it is today and super easy to clean up as the first step.
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Haha, you are comparing F1 to a weekend hobby sport. The golfing comparison is spot on, weekend club golf and club matches are massive compared to this hobby sport.
And yes pro golfers do use a handicap system against each other, the pro tour has a qualifications system that is a handicap system.
Equipment matters only in like talent, top shooters would still compete and beat mid pack shooters with mid teir gear, and almost all mid-pack shooters with gucci gear still don't win. Hobby sport need to act like it. Plenty of top shooters choose to go hunt over compete in matches.
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Pro golf has a handicap system? Don’t make me laugh. Amateur golf using a ‘handicap’, but never in a major amateur event, e.g. US Amateur. I’m definitely not a beginner shooter and will be showing up, for my first match, w/an ex-course rifle in a PRS style/type stock that is sub 1/2 moa rifle. No ZCO (
), but thats not an issue. And no, it won’t weigh 22 lbs. My point, w/high power, is it makes no sense to have a virgin shoot against a pro.
), but thats not an issue. And no, it won’t weigh 22 lbs. My point, w/high power, is it makes no sense to have a virgin shoot against a pro.Similar threads
