Rifle Competition Events  What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?

THEIS

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  • Nov 27, 2017
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    Hi,

    So in light of some of the other threads in regards to discussions of the precision shooting organizations, rules, procedures, methods, etc etc that are clearly NOT sitting well within the community members here.

    I would like to task this thread to be a community talent pool to discuss the real importance of growing the sport.

    My opinion is that we must put the growth of the sport over the growth of the industry. My thought process behind that is with growth of the sport the industry grows organically as to organizations pushing for growth of the industry without providing a way to grow the sport actually can cause the growth to become stagnant.

    DISCLAIMER: I do not have the answers to some of the recently discussed issues but I am here to say that even though my livelihood is the industry....we need growth of the sport first and foremost.

    Individual match participants must be increased in a manner to tap into the common man, woman, girl, transgender, etc etc without them being 1 match and out participants because of perceived equipment cost, perceived "I do not fit in", perceived "it doesn't make me a better shooter/hunter", etc etc.

    It may come off as kind of opposite mentality and business model as some of my other discussions on my Hoplite Arms thread in which that business model is to go straight to the top in regards to top tier price and market but that really is different than what IMO needs to be done in regards to growing the precision rifle competition base. By growing that precision rifle competition base the law of numbers will grow some of them into big dollar purchasers.

    From my side of the house I am requesting us industry folks get behind growing the sports base ahead of growing our industry market.
    Not everyone is going to afford a Hoplite Arms rifle and that is ok with me but that does not mean I do not want to support growing the number of shooters that partake in a precision rifle match.
    Not everyone is going to afford a RRS Tripod and head but that does not mean they should be discarded in regards to their importance of overall firearm ownership.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
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    THEIS

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    Run what you brung, and learn where you want to go as you make your way there. I like to shoot with anyone that has common sense and a passion for the sport.

    Hi,

    I started my shooting career out in the old "Any/Any" competitions for the USN...Was some of the best times ever had on the range.

    Some people will be drawn to precision rifle competition with the goal of being a better hunter.
    Some people will be drawn to precision rifle competition to just be able to spend a day or two with friends.
    List goes on and on as long as the organizations due not hinder it.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    Dthomas3523

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  • Jan 31, 2018
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    10-20% of shooters will always adapt and rise to the top.

    10-20% will always be at the bottom no matter how much you try. And they will keep shooting.

    It’s the 60-80% average/middle of the road shooters you should be looking at and taking care of. I don’t mean to offend, but if you lost the top 10% of shooters, the rest wouldn’t stop showing up. There is too much focus on the small % at the top and not enough on the real population that’s keeping matches/ranges in business.

    We need to find a productive way to have the average shooter walk away feeling like they learned or gain something other than “well....definitely need to work on some things.” Let’s give them more for their $250-$300.

    Yes yes, I know “it’s a two day national match, you should either be skilled enough or willing to take the beating.”

    Thats perfect world PGA tour type thinking. We ain’t there yet. The top 10% needs the other 90%
    much more than the 90% needs the 10%. And matches should reflect that until we have a different dynamic.

    Let the top guys focus on the AG cup(or something equivalent) and the rest on the “normal” two day matches
     

    THEIS

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  • Nov 27, 2017
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    Hi,

    @Dthomas3523
    So lets take that middle 80% in discussion.
    What would you say their top 3 reasons are for participating in a precision rifle match?
    What would say you their top 3 reasons for NEVER coming back to a precision rifle match?
    At what point are those 80% feeling "left out"?

    In what ways are the current organizations not catering to that 80%?

    Do the current organizations give the MDs' the leadway to cater to that 80%

    In general:
    What are the current organizations doing to help the MDs not only keep those 80% but actually grow the numbers within that 80%?

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Hi,

    @Dthomas3523
    So lets take that middle 80% in discussion.
    What would you say their top 3 reasons are for participating in a precision rifle match?
    What would say you their top 3 reasons for NEVER coming back to a precision rifle match?
    At what point are those 80% feeling "left out"?

    In what ways are the current organizations not catering to that 80%?

    Do the current organizations give the MDs' the leadway to cater to that 80%

    In general:
    What are the current organizations doing to help the MDs not only keep those 80% but actually grow the numbers within that 80%?

    Sincerely,
    Theis

    Top reasons to shoot:

    1: No other options. They don’t have the luxury of club matches. This ties into what @lowlight has mentioned about finding clubs to do lots of 1 day matches. I hear it all the time, “I wish there were club matches, but the closes thing is these 2 day matches.”

    2: Destination experience. They want something different. Self explanatory

    3: Shoot against the best. Yes this is contradictory to my previous statement. But it is a small reason. The difference is, if the current top % disappeared, there would be shooters who take their place immediately as the top. So, no matter what, that 80% shoots against the top.

    Reasons they don’t come back:

    1: Was their first match experience and got crushed

    2: Some sort of bad experience like prize table shenanigans, “pro” shooter acting like an elitist, etc etc.

    3: Only match within what they consider reasonable distance. So it’s either the only match they shoot once a year, or that location doesn’t get another match in future seasons.

    Current organizations are set up to reward the top. Everyone shoots the same pro skill time, pro skill targets, and pro skill props. So only the top contenders + shooters that had a lucky/good day walk away feeling good.
     

    Dthomas3523

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  • Jan 31, 2018
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    It’s a big logistical pull, but there needs to be a tier level at these matches. In a perfect world, these would be the pro matches and should be run as such. And maybe one day we’ll have 80+ pro level shooters showing up to a match. Then you can have make actual matches the tiers like you do with minor league sports teams.

    Until then, you need (IMO) three tiers. These tiers need to be selected by the shooter. The difficulty level should be increased or decreased based on time, positions, and target size.

    For example:

    Tier 3: 2.5moa targets and 2min
    Tier 2: 2moa and 1.45min
    Tier 1: 1.75 or 1.5moa and 1:30min

    Shooters select the cof they desire.

    You could also just do a time and position tier. Then keep all the targets the same size.

    Tier 3: 2min and less positions
    Tier 2: 1:45min and same as pro positions
    Tier 1: 1:30min and all positions
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Here’s an idea.

    Dedicate one stage per day as the “pro evaluation stage.”

    Have a trusted and knowledgeable shooter assigned to that stage. Have him do nothing but watch and evaluate the shooters on that stage all day for two days.

    Make it an optional fee, like a mulligan. For $10 or $20, you get this ticket or chip. Give it to the pro shooter at the evaluation stage. The will make notes on the things he/she sees you need to work on.

    Or, have video running. For $50, you get a pro evaluation that will be sent to you within 2 weeks.

    So, with your $300 match purchase, you get to leave with something concrete to think about or work on.
     

    Lil Casino

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    As a new to precision rifle shooter I would offer this, and it may seem crazy but here goes:

    Disclaimer: I have no idea the cost or how much of a logistical nightmare it would be to run a match.

    Why not run a simple handicap system? Similar to bowling or golf leagues. Impacts vs Attempts. Pay an association fee for your locality and the series. say...$40.00 per shooter per year. (Spitballing numbers here) $15 goes to the regional association and $25 to the national series. Have 1 a month matches/league at an affordable price...say $25 or $40 paid directly to the range per shooter and a 5 stage 50 round count match. Bring whatever equipment you want without a $ limitation on that equipment. Keep rules to a minimum and simplify them such as barrel length, mv, mag capacity....etc, then use a handicap system to level the playing field based on match results "Shooters Average" There would be "scratch" shooters at the top but let's the novice be competitive. Keep a few simple metrics to let them track their progress. Keep season averages and offer up a yearbook at the end of the season for a few bucks. Keep things simple, affordable and within a family's budget and allowable free time. This way, the family with true factory equipment shooting factory ammo might actually be able to compete, have fun, grow and feel included in the series?
     

    THEIS

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  • Nov 27, 2017
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    Hi,

    So building off the middle 80% because I think there is a LOT to that!!
    What is the downside to something like this (Goes right inline with local club style match conversations)?

    We take somewhere like 7FoxTrot, Rifles Only, and some of the other facilities (Not the pick a field type venues).
    Once a quarter a 1 or 2 day precision rifle competition for ONLY people with less than 3 matches under their belt.
    No series points, No prize table pressures...just pure learning under competition disguise.

    Would it get the same number of competitors as a "Sanctioned" match?
    Would it get enough competitors to make it worthwhile for the facilities?

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
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    lash

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    I certainly do not have the answers that are best for all, but I have observations and opinions based upon more than a few years of involvement in club matches and also major 1 and 2 day matches.

    A barrier to new shooters is often cost and the perceived intimidation of the bigger matches. Many are not ready to spend $80 for a one day PRS match as their first match. Especially if they are concerned about the unknowns of what they are getting involved in. As different from the expectation as this sounds, I really think that non-sponsored, non-sanctioned club level matches provide a much more accessible format and approach to precision rifle shooting (or any type of shooting actually).

    I’m not saying that the PRS one-day club matches are a bad format or a wrong format though. I’m not even sure how one could create a formalized format that accomplishes everything and attracts all as an all-in-one format. I just think that, like some others, the real growth has to start somewhat informally at the local level. A lower tier, if you will.

    Prior to the most recent growth of the PRS and NRL, there were more local club matches that tended to be less formal and provided a good bit more variety in styles and formats / stages. These had a more “welcoming” feel to them, if that is indeed does convey what I’m trying to say. I think that many here that are familiar with what I’m saying will agree.

    The difficulty in making this happen, is inherent with the actual issue of it being small local efforts, compounded by the lack of enough local places to shoot precision matches. Then, once you consider the problem of making this a concerted effort nationally, it must be an organized effort. This almost always negates and confounds the freedom and differences that make these small local matches attractive for what they are.

    So, after all of those words, was I as clear as mud?
     

    W54/XM-388

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    If you want to grow the sport, perhaps some of the matches can be setup where it's an easy, low cost, one day event where pretty much anybody interested who has a basic setup and idea of their dope and such can come up and have a fun enjoyable low pressure match with a really friendly atmosphere where folks can enjoy hanging out with others while getting to see how they can do and where in the pack they wind up being when the scores are handed out.
    Maybe just a trophy and certificate instead of some big prize and then have like a drawing for various small prizes like boxes of ammo or rear bags or such?
     

    lowlight

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    I would have to take a few extra minutes to read through this, but initially:

    The simple way I looked at a newer shooter vs a more seasoned shooter in terms of match course of fire was two ways, time and target size.

    If the Pro Level shooter is doing 90 seconds, the new shooter should start about 2 to 3 minutes depending on the amount of movement from prop to prop. Speed can and does cause NDs with shooters, so slowing them down is a good thing. Maybe mix in 2 out of 20 stages that are 90 seconds, but that is a different animal, that is in regards to MD and Design. The Series and MD should be working hand in glove on the COF. The MD is representing the series, so helping and brainstorming to mix it up would be key in my mind.

    Next is the easy way I see to fix this, Target size, if you do a 45% IPSC for a pro-sized target, do a 66% for the AM. If the target is 66% for the Pro do Full Sized for the AM. You basically have two targets at the stage, one big, one small. Mark them different and let the newer shooter use those. Part of the complaint is, Targets are expensive, if you want to host a match, there has to be certain sacrifices, like paying for a proper target package, if you can't afford it and the Series wants you to participate, they need to ship the targets to you. There should be certain standards with the COF, but also you want to give the MD the ability to highlight their skills. We always had 2 Highlight Stages, maybe it was the Helicopter, maybe it was a long stage that combined a bunch of movement with every element mixed in, the Handgun Drag. Then you look at staple stages, etc.

    Growing the sport is about opening the door, we grew the sport, fast too. We did it with 2 matches a year and made those matches a destination. We were sold out in 1 Minute, we had waiting lists, and people attended for a full week in order to get training too. I set the $300 standard for match fees, I was the first to go over $250, because I could. Now that model has changed it should be lower cost.

    Even like I mentioned in the podcast, Shadow Competitors, charge them 1/2 the price with no score. Show up, pay 1/2 learn something, no risk, no score sheet, keep your own score, but you can learn.

    It's not hard, but you have to be willing to make sacrifices too. That is the missing element, someone asked in the other thread are these problems Ego or Lazy, to me, it's both. They are equally egotistical and lazy, when you consider what we "don't" see from them, it's total laziness.
     

    lash

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    If you want to grow the sport, perhaps some of the matches can be setup where it's an easy, low cost, one day event where pretty much anybody interested who has a basic setup and idea of their dope and such can come up and have a fun enjoyable low pressure match with a really friendly atmosphere where folks can enjoy hanging out with others while getting to see how they can do and where in the pack they wind up being when the scores are handed out.
    Maybe just a trophy and certificate instead of some big prize and then have like a drawing for various small prizes like boxes of ammo or rear bags or such?
    Our small matches had no prizes and no trophies to keep costs down. Just pride in a good finish, for whatever your expectations were.
     

    lowlight

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    The thing with these posts is,

    it's all academic, unless a new series starts and uses some of the ideas put forth, the PRS will never change like this. They despise the idea we are talking about them in this way. They know best who are you to say, none of you understand, etc.

    They won't consider a single new idea, it goes against everything they stand for. In a word, expect no changes.

    So while this is fun, and we have done this several times over the years, it never goes anywhere unless someone is willing to invest the time and energy into a new series. I can't I have neither, so for me, it's just talking, and these conversations I have had already, been there done this, got the T Shirts,
     

    W54/XM-388

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    So while this is fun, and we have done this several times over the years, it never goes anywhere unless someone is willing to invest the time and energy into a new series. I can't I have neither, so for me, it's just talking, and these conversations I have had already, been there done this, got the T Shirts,

    Maybe @THEIS is looking for another part of the industry to take over......
    :unsure:
     

    Blutroop

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    I’ve never shot any match. I hunt and I prepare to honor my oath. I’m a poor and have been to embarrassed to ask some questions mostly cause better to be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    Local meet ups. I’m the type that would be intimidated to show up and try a match but would drive far for a “area meetup” with some chili and some cool stuff to look at and meet and greet.
    As I mingled and found like minded people and browse some of the rifles I could never afford I’d start to feel comfortable around like minded people. If someone offered to let me shoot one at the right time I’d be hooked. I’m a hands on learner so can read and read and might not ever get it but someone showing me is usually all it takes.
    I’m still using Kentucky windage because some of my scopes say barska and tasco. Don’t know if your even wanting my kind but I hope this helps.
     

    theLBC

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    how much does speed between targets matter (if at all)?
    with my bad knees, i am not running, even if tsunami is coming.
    bench rest shooting doesn't particularly appeal to me as i only shoot a gas gun.
    i would be interested in a timed competition where .5 moa isn't as important as speed.
    also, the idea of "competing" with a 7.62 against pea shooters isn't all that great either.
     
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    lowlight

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    You don't put a price on speed,

    Broken people have problems, there is no way around that, I am not technically broken, just older and worn out from pushing over the years, and it bothers me. You either suck it up, drive on, or practice a different way to address the prop that works with. your injury

    You can't start cutting out physical exceptions
     

    brianf

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    Some said it before, use golf as a example

    think about it, prob the only sport that pro
    amateurs can play at the same time,in the same group and still have “fun”

    handicap like suggested (not sure how it would work)

    different Tee locations to make the course longer or shorter.

    maybe larger targets but a bullseye scoring system, so a noob can still get hits but the pros get “x” ring points

    I think new shooters don’t mind “loosing” but they will be discouraged if the hit 5 out of 40 shots for example.

    25 hits on 40 shots even though it was the size of a barn will keep them coming because there isn’t any embarrassment even though it’s self imposed.

    Course of fire given to new shooters so they dont need a LRF, tripod supplied at stage so noob only needs a rrs rail things like that, to lessen $ first time out.

    Ro at stage gives the noob a quick wind call from last shooter, or a large range so they don’t miss by 20 feet

    just spit balling.
     

    W54/XM-388

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    I’ve never shot any match. I hunt and I prepare to honor my oath. I’m a poor and have been to embarrassed to ask some questions mostly cause better to be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    Local meet ups. I’m the type that would be intimidated to show up and try a match but would drive far for a “area meetup” with some chili and some cool stuff to look at and meet and greet.
    As I mingled and found like minded people and browse some of the rifles I could never afford I’d start to feel comfortable around like minded people. If someone offered to let me shoot one at the right time I’d be hooked. I’m a hands on learner so can read and read and might not ever get it but someone showing me is usually all it takes.
    I’m still using Kentucky windage because some of my scopes say barska and tasco. Don’t know if your even wanting my kind but I hope this helps.

    You might look around and see if someone is running some low pressure fun matches.

    Around here, TacPro used to run a really fun 400yard benchrest match that had everyone from folks showing up with their jackets covered in brand sponsor patches, winching custom shooting benches up to the line, to folks in plain clothes with a harris bipod shooting prone off the dirt.
    Entry price included barbecue lunch.

    Before the local police department bought out the range, APG was another nearby place that had a fun simple match with rifle & pistol that anybody could show up and shoot, and was great fun. Show up and share a rifle with your buddy if you had to.
     
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    lowlight

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    Guys,

    None of this is new, we had Series before, long before, they failed, we tried handicapping, we tried balancing ranges putting a figure on that ... if you shot a match with an 800 yard Range you get X, if you shoot a comp with 1000 yards you get Y, tried it

    Only one thing works, Simplicity, you have to make it bone simple to work. Less is better

    Easier is better,
     

    theLBC

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    You might look around and see if someone is running some low pressure fun matches.

    Around here, TacPro used to run a really fun 400yard benchrest match that had everyone from folks showing up with their jackets covered in brand sponsor patches, winching custom shooting benches up to the line, to folks in plain clothes with a harris bipod shooting prone off the dirt.
    Entry price included barbecue lunch.

    Before the local police department bought out the range, there was another nearby place that had a fun simple match with rifle & pistol that anybody could show up and shoot, and was great fun. Show up and share a rifle with your buddy if you had to.
    i found one within a couple hours and got excited until i found they don't allow muzzle brakes. seems weird but i don't have anything like that except my dad's old lever gun.
     

    lowlight

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    On top that, you have to consider the ranges being used,

    They factor into the equations, how much movement can you suffer, more movement between shooting is more fun, but not all ranges can handle it.

    Really it needs to be a Bottom up thing, Like maybe say, all matches with have 18 stages, 2 will be X, 10 will be Y, 6 will be open to interpretation, whatever but you have to start with that stuff, not trying to figure out how to make broken people happy,

    it's all the other things that matter, a good course of fire is one part of the puzzle, How do you support the members, how will rules be enforced, will you take points away.

    Scoring
    Equipment
    Penalities
    Standardized Stages
    Communication
    Member Incentives

    It's all those logistical things, not the shooting part, registration, squadding, etc,
     

    lowlight

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    Once you have the big picture stuff, you look at recruiting, you need to convince ranges to host your match, Then membership should be tiered as well as a path for entry at the matches.

    In fact, I would even map out a model for prizes and how you handle the reading of the scores. The more consistent, the more upfront, the less drama, no surprises.
     

    Lightning8

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    I am a new PRS competitor. Took a couple of classes to learn - noticed at the two classes that all the "new shooters" had $3000+ rifles and $2000+ scopes etc. so money does not seem to be an issue. Saw the same thing back in my USPSA days - new shooters would quickly move to custom Limited or Open pistols thinking they could buy better skills.

    My local range has 500 yard max right now - I built a 223 trainer and shoot that a lot on practice barricades no reason to wear out my 6XC at 500. I plan on shooting 1 day club type matches - doubt I will ever go to a 2 day event.

    I would like more 1 day events which implies more ranges hosting matches. Could care less about prizes, etc. as like most shooting events - 75% of attendees are there for fun. I have competed in USPSA and Sporting Clays and enjoyed both more when I did the best I could and focused on enjoying myself.
     

    lowlight

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    It's really not so much the competition side to fix, but the management of the shooters and how to support and standardize the matches, not from a course of fire standard, but the format and running of the big level stuff that most competitors overlook

    Once you set the division, you then need a way to place people in those divisions during registration, that is one. So the scoring has to be set up ahead of time.

    I really think the growth will come from a simplifying of the entire process, as well as offer the Shadow Competitors the chance to enter the fray. It has to allow for spontaneous entry, regardless of the equipment run (within reason)

    The reason a lot of matches see new competitors arrive ready to go with $5k equipment is they are

    1. Really into it and studied and have disposable income
    2. A Friend coached them up ahead of time.

    I think 2 is the common path to entry, you telling two friends and getting ready ahead of time. That has to cultivate, there has to be a recruitment incentive, bring in 3 friends we cover your entry fee for the next match. You need a recruiting wing that hits gun shops, big box stores, and levers have to be created to promote the matches.

    Once the match begins it should be simple, Range Officer briefs the squad, Series Members are scored, Shadow Competitors are just run on a clock, no scoring that, its on them, have the RO just say, 4 hits at the end, whatever.

    Every 2-day match should have the ability to provide clinics to new shooters, so they're technically 3-day events. They took the clinics away years ago because Pros were using them to practice, so they made a no practice rule. We always had Train Up, ours were 3-day classes prior to the match.

    Growth is a job, growth takes a plan, growth needs an ambassador or series of them, with incentives. This is where giving back comes into play.
     
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    TJC

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    Next is the easy way I see to fix this, Target size, if you do a 45% IPSC for a pro-sized target, do a 66% for the AM. If the target is 66% for the Pro do Full Sized for the AM. You basically have two targets at the stage, one big, one small. Mark them different and let the newer shooter use those.

    We do this in Europe on some stages. Two targets. One large (1 point) one pretty small (2 points).

    New or experienced you can shoot at whichever you want but once you select the target you can’t change mid-stage. If a top shooter has a really bad stage, he can go small and try to catch-up so it adds risk management to the match for the better shooters and the newer guys still get to hit quite a few plates and have a good day. It works for everyone.
     

    W54/XM-388

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    We do this in Europe on some stages. Two targets. One large (1 point) one pretty small (2 points).

    New or experienced you can shoot at whichever you want but once you select the target you can’t change mid-stage. If a top shooter has a really bad stage, he can go small and try to catch-up so it adds risk management to the match for the better shooters and the newer guys still get to hit quite a few plates and have a good day. It works for everyone.

    One of the matches I did had a similar thing except you had a 10 round round count maximum (x2 stages) to shoot in 10 minutes.
    There were 9 targets of 3 different sizes the smallest ones were the highest value and the largest ones were the least value.
    There was switching and gusting winds.
    It made for a very interesting head game of what you want to expend rounds on.
     
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    lowlight

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    We have shot every kind of stage,

    300 to 800, 1 shot each, run 10 yards, climb the tower to engage targets, no touching the scope on the tower, no ranging, they are mixed ranges, UKD technically, you have to estimate and hold.

    I cleaned in 54 seconds,

    You have 20+ years of stages, I am sure everything has been shot at least once
     
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    theLBC

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    We have shot every kind of stage,

    300 to 800, 1 shot each, run 10 yards, climb the tower to engage targets, no touching the scope on the tower, no ranging, they are mixed ranges, UKD technically, you have to estimate and hold.

    I cleaned in 54 seconds,

    You have 20+ years of stages, I am sure everything has been shot at least once
    sound like fun, except the running part. i suppose it puts a biathlon element into it, as shooting when out of breath is harder.

    reminds me of the old joke...
    a big bull and his young son are on a hill, looking down at a herd of cows.
    young bull says, "hey dad, how bout we run down there and fuck one of them cows?".
    bull replies, "how bout we walk down there and fuck em all?".
     

    lowlight

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    You use movement as a stressor, time and movement replace being shot at ...

    Back in the day we never stood in front of a prop, you always had to move some distance too it, now they take 3 steps and camp out, we required you to move and shoot, move to shoot some more, scrambles are the best stages
     

    lowlight

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    Here if you want to go back in Time,

    Watch this Burkett video of the SHC from 2008, the best part is around 3:40 mark to 5;00 watch how out of breath Matt is ...

    That was one stage.


    The Culverts near the end are a 300 yard live fire obstacle course, that's how we did matches, with movement.
     

    Cjwise5

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    Don't mean this to be all doom and gloom...
    Everything, every endeavor reaches a peak and then levels off, gradually minimizes, or straight up crashes. Very few things keep growing and improving for the long haul. That's just the way it is.

    I'm not saying there's no point in trying to "grow the sport." It's just that I have an honest question about the motives. Are we just after money? Fame? The feeling that "this sport has changed my life" and I just want others to experience the same thing?? What's the reason for precision rifle shooting to grow? My answer is simply because I want people to have fun while shooting guns. It's really no more complicated than that. The sport, industry, whatever doesn't need to grow for that to happen. It will happen as more new people get invited and have a good time. Like Frank said, simpler is better. Easier is better.

    Where do we go from here? It's kinda all been done. Assassin's Way is the first outside the box competition we've seen in a long time, but so few people will ever get a change to do that one. Similar outcome with AG Cup...so few people will get to experience it. Niches gain in loyalty not necessarily in size. Could be it's just a quality vs. quantity issue.

    If having fun is the ultimate goal then I would say we need to focus on the way people feel at the end of their day of shooting. Unfortunately everyone has a different definition of the word fun. For me personally, I've had fun when the people in my squad were cool and safe, it was a nice warm day, and I hit a majority of the targets. This has nothing to do with time limits, prize tables, cost of equipment, etc.

    I know, I'm probably being all cryptic but hopefully you can get something out of what I'm saying. I need a translator.
     

    kcrippen

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    I’m a bottom 10%’er and I known I’ll never be a top 10%’er. For me I look at my impacts at the end of the match compared to shots fired, if I’m 30% I’m not happy, 40% I’m content, 50% or more I’m getting better. And every match I learn and have gotten better. @lowlight the pod casts have helped on that part, basically making my own AAR. I’ve squaded with the top 10% finishers, and they always there to grow the sport.
    With said random squading could help new shooters, but that’s just me.
     
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    theLBC

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    to be clear, i have no problem finishing poorly as long as i improve, but it is hard to compare my performance to others and be able to rate myself against others if they are shooting rifles with a large advantage in ballistics and recoil. that is all i am saying.
    not whining and i know if is my choice what caliber to run and our fault if enough of us don't compete.
     
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    kriller134

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    I think the most important thing is to have a rules standard. Then have some sort of classification. I think once you have that setup, competitors know who they’re up against. You compete within your class. Just like Uspsa. You have clear cut standards to move up in class. As for prizes, either have a prize table for each class(Uspsa) or random draw. If the “pros” bitch about that, have them put their money where their mouth is and do a cash side pot, since that’s what they’re really there for anyways. A new shooter gets shit stomped, but walks away with a nice prize, that’ll grow the sport tremendously. Think of the word of mouth that person would spread. That is truely giving back to the community.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    Don't mean this to be all doom and gloom...
    Everything, every endeavor reaches a peak and then levels off, gradually minimizes, or straight up crashes. Very few things keep growing and improving for the long haul. That's just the way it is.

    I'm not saying there's no point in trying to "grow the sport." It's just that I have an honest question about the motives. Are we just after money? Fame? The feeling that "this sport has changed my life" and I just want others to experience the same thing?? What's the reason for precision rifle shooting to grow? My answer is simply because I want people to have fun while shooting guns. It's really no more complicated than that. The sport, industry, whatever doesn't need to grow for that to happen. It will happen as more new people get invited and have a good time. Like Frank said, simpler is better. Easier is better.

    Where do we go from here? It's kinda all been done. Assassin's Way is the first outside the box competition we've seen in a long time, but so few people will ever get a change to do that one. Similar outcome with AG Cup...so few people will get to experience it. Niches gain in loyalty not necessarily in size. Could be it's just a quality vs. quantity issue.

    If having fun is the ultimate goal then I would say we need to focus on the way people feel at the end of their day of shooting. Unfortunately everyone has a different definition of the word fun. For me personally, I've had fun when the people in my squad were cool and safe, it was a nice warm day, and I hit a majority of the targets. This has nothing to do with time limits, prize tables, cost of equipment, etc.

    I know, I'm probably being all cryptic but hopefully you can get something out of what I'm saying. I need a translator.

    I agree. Though I think some things can be altered or reversed to move this back into the “for fun” and more for the shooters.

    Without going off on a tangent, I’ll just say that the way the two main organizations are currently structured, it’s all about sponsorship dollars. Now, if they want to say it’s that way so they can pass it down to the shooter, that’s fine and a different discussion. But, regardless how you slice it, that’s always going to put you at the mercy of the sponsors. It’s also always going to put any organization virtually at war with one another.

    The inherent issue with being a slave to sponsor money is there’s only so many “big fish” in this little niche pond. So, you have to use scorched earth tactics in an attempt to get or keep those sponsors as they are so few and far between. This always hurts the shooter. As it invites drama and ridiculousness as we just saw with the production class debacle.

    The only way we move away from this is a completely new business model that works off of revenue generated internally via matches, and then works itself out to sponsors. With the end goal being more mainstream sponsoring. But you need a ton of shooters before someone not in the industry would be willing to jump in (with 2a publicity also hindering many outside sponsor interest).

    As @lowlight has pointed out, to do it right there would need to be some sacrifice and giving back to the shooters/community first without chasing sponsors all scorched earth like.

    More fun + less drama + simple = more shooters.


    That was a lot to type without any answers. But understanding the problem is very important to finding a solution.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    does anyone have a stage like this?

    10 targets, 300-800yrds, timed. 2 hits each, 5 second penalty for misses.

    I have wanted penalty for misses for some time. *But* that seems to turn a lot of shooters off.

    Working on some things now that may still give a consequence for a miss without giving people a bad taste.
     

    TJC

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    .If having fun is the ultimate goal then I would say we need to focus on the way people feel at the end of their day of shooting. Unfortunately everyone has a different definition of the word fun. For me personally, I've had fun when the people in my squad were cool and safe, it was a nice warm day, and I hit a majority of the targets. This has nothing to do with time limits, prize tables, cost of equipment, etc.

    This is the Guardian Series and is why it is so popular. If they had more matches, especially with their day 2 format and approach to the prize table they would take over.

    Good people, good structure, good purpose, no drama and good fun. Go supoort them.
     

    lowlight

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    this thread is the reason it won’t work,

    the discussion always goes to what I can do to have fun, or the Guardian is fun, Guardian is a one off, not a series it’s a single match, every match operates the same, I shot a Guardian its no different on the day than any other match the fun is no consequences, you shoot you go home.

    Always the broken record response, you guys in enjoy, echo chamber dont work because those move nothing, this takes work and effort, not pie in the sky stuff.

    If you just want to show up and fun shoot for day, create that, a fun shoot, charge 1 day fees like $40 and have a fun shoot, cause that is what everyone wants, all fun, no responsibility. Have the fun shoot coalition that set ups events like a carvinal, you play for pennies, go home when you’re done. Cause that is what i hear.
     

    1moaoff

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    Shooting side
    -the kyl removal amd 1 point only per target is dumb because its a 100% rule you can't loose point
    - let people loose point for shooting too much and missing
    - larger targets for new or lower percentage shooter
    - more time for newer or lower percentage shooter
    Gear side
    - production should be something RPR or Savage price tag
    - ammo (while I dont agree) maybe factory
    - make a box, if your gear bag including bipod won't fit or isn't in it you can't use it.
    Match
    -dont just have Friday open. Have mentors available or something to help new people understand
    - no jersey with company name unless they pay you. This will clarify alot of little things.
    - ND on a target or berm is a miss. All others are forfeit
    - Absolutely NO stage resort because you messed up and whined you didnt understand so you dropped 1 point. If this is supposed to simulate hunting or tactical when do you get a redo. Or figure a way that the PRO can't resort but newer shooter can.
    - shooter number on back or something to make sure scores go where they should
    - sign your score sheet?


    Fix the fucking prize table bullshit and whining.
    Match support personnel should get prizes
    New shooters or needy shooters
    Limit number of prize table walks in a season?
    If people want to pay into a pot they can split the winnings but not mandatory?
    Ask if anyone is willing to mentor a newer shooter in group? And allow the coaching?
    Have a stock gun match or class?. rifle and ammo provided?
    If a pro or high level shooter shooting on home range targets props etc what if anything can be done? So others or new have level field.

    Just items I have heard and thought of. Many sound odd but thats for smarter people to decide.

    ETA: LL just posted whe I was typing. These are items that won't keep me from shooting. But are common themes. It would be great if someone could revise the sport. I understand an organization takes time and resources to run. Should it be profitable? I think so but balancing that is hard. Hell ill pony up to start it for a percentage over time, if it helps. I leafy give to charity so I'm not cutting a check for nothing. But I will cut a check if someone comes up with a better version that has potential.
     
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    1moaoff

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    Do people want to compete.
    Do people want to shoot the match for other reasons.


    If there shooting to compete is it against themselves or to compete against others.

    As low light has said before match surveys for the experience

    In many sports the governing body does not also compete or is not eligible for prizes is this a problem within this type of set up
     

    Long Range 338

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    If you just want to show up and fun shoot for day, create that, a fun shoot, charge 1 day fees like $40 and have a fun shoot, cause that is what everyone wants, all fun, no responsibility. Have the fun shoot coalition that set ups events like a carvinal, you play for pennies, go home when you’re done. Cause that is what i hear.

    While I think you are 100% correct in this statement, I think the fun shoot is the gateway to finding those who would be more interested in pursuing it competitively. The same goes for the field style matches, rimfire comps, and Hunter style matches. In the end people don't know what they don't know and want to experience the rush with the gear they have and without a bunch of hyper competitive high school jock antics. To summarize you're not going to grow the sport without drawing the younger crowd and if it isn't fun, they won't be back.
     

    1moaoff

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    Here is a bad concept but one that needs to be considered.

    leaving what people think of the organizations themselves out just a mental exercise.

    Are we looking at this all wrong?

    Should CMP, NRA, usa shooting or other be the governing body?

    I understand we all want to self govern and I support that but conceptually does it make sense?

    We all want this to be a big sport or bigger? Possibly for different reasons. Maybe until 1 emerges as the king of the hill and has feeder organizations that isn't possible.

    Are we trying to make this something it can't or won't be because we are the minority wanting this type of competition?

    Just food for thought. Im done for now. Going into massage envy to relax my brain and body!
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    While I think you are 100% correct in this statement, I think the fun shoot is the gateway to finding those who would be more interested in pursuing it competitively. The same goes for the field style matches, rimfire comps, and Hunter style matches. In the end people don't know what they don't know and want to experience the rush with the gear they have and without a bunch of hyper competitive high school jock antics. To summarize you're not going to grow the sport without drawing the younger crowd and if it isn't fun, they won't be back.

    NRL22 already showed us that easy matches focused around women and children don’t get the attendance up for young people and such.

    While it does bring in some younger people, it doesn’t bring in enough to matter.

    When .22 matches shot off buckets and easy stuff doesn’t bring in young people by the masses, almost nothing will.