Optic for Ar-15 "SPR/DMR" build

[beetroot]

I admit, Nightforce is a marketing genius. I wonder if that ad about warranty was from the Jeff Huber days? Anyone out there with a boatload of cash wanting to do some torture tests to about $50k worth of scopes I've seen the NF videos of hammering a spike and it still shoots straight, another frozen in an ice block and shot with a shotgun and it shoots straight. Like I said, marketing genius, but I wonder how much more "durable" or "virtually indestructible" NF scopes are compared to the competition, I'd venture to think some of the competition could not stand up, while some others may hold up even better.

That meme with the NF and Berger's made me snort

Sorry to digress from the thread. OP, I see the LRHS/LRTS didn't make your cut, I do think you should give it some consideration
View attachment 7623539

I'm surprised that you speak so highly of the LRHS considering how much you value having a wide FOV.
Everytime I start think about buy a 4.5-18 I look at the FOV specs and can't help but think 18x on the top end is a little lacking and the FOV at 4.5x is very lacking.

 

[beetroot]

This is my list right now in no particular order:

•Tract Toric 2.5-15(out in December, hopefully they shave some weight from the rest of the toric line)
•NF 2.5-10x42(Hopefully on sale or used)
•Vortex viper pst gen 2 3-15(my "budget buy")
•Trijicon Credo® HX 2.5-15x42(For some reason I just don't want to buy this one but it seems to check a lot of boxes)

There are others that look great but just don't have illumination that I've eliminated. Such as the Burris XTR III 3.3-18. I like the Brownells 3-18 MPO but at 33 ounces seems to be a bit heavier than I would like. How does my list look?

Btw everyone's advice and opinions are invaluable. I'm learning a lot by reading this forum from you guys who have a lot more experience than me

I'd go for the 3-15 PST, either used or one of the discounted EBR-2D reticle ones.
That will be you shooting for now and you should be able to sell again for pretty much the same money.

They you can wait until the end of the year and see what new scopes have been released.
You'll also have the benefit of having used the PST and know what you like/dislike about it, which should help you make a decision for your next purchase.

 

[beetroot]

I run a Viper PST II 5-25 on my 20" AR. Only 1.2 oz heavier than the XTR III 3.3-18, but the PST has illumination. My eyes aren't the best, so I'm happy to run a little heavier scope for more magnification.

Have taken it to 800 yards with no problem. Tracks great, glass is good. Tough to beat for the price IMO.

What do you think of the PST vs the XTR 3? By all accounts the XTR3 should be better in every way.

How do you find the reticle on the XTR3 vs PST?
Do you find the reticle is noticeably thinner on the Burris?
I'm assuming you have the SCR2 reticle?

 

[supercorndogs]

The PSTII 3-15 is one of the biggest scopes mentioned so far. The 4.5-18 LRHS/LRTS is right in line with scopes with the same mag range as far as FOV. Yes the XTRIII is better in every way than the PST-II, so is the LRTS. The PSTII is ok at 600, but there is a reason they sell under 600.

 

[Bevo]

What do you think of the PST vs the XTR 3? By all accounts the XTR3 should be better in every way.

How do you find the reticle on the XTR3 vs PST?
Do you find the reticle is noticeably thinner on the Burris?
I'm assuming you have the SCR2 reticle?

I don't know if it's better in every way, but for the price difference it should be.

Glass was clearer on the XTR. Reticle is very thin, almost non-existent at low power.

I had them on different guns...sold my XTR 3 and replaced it with a Cronus. Still not 100% sure that was a wise decision but now I have illum and up to 29x power with the Cronus. Glass is same (to me). Still have the PST II on my 20" 5.56 gasser...no reason for me to replace it as I shot out to 800 yards with zero issues making consistent hits.

 

[JDB55]

I admit, Nightforce is a marketing genius. I wonder if that ad about warranty was from the Jeff Huber days? Anyone out there with a boatload of cash wanting to do some torture tests to about $50k worth of scopes I've seen the NF videos of hammering a spike and it still shoots straight, another frozen in an ice block and shot with a shotgun and it shoots straight. Like I said, marketing genius, but I wonder how much more "durable" or "virtually indestructible" NF scopes are compared to the competition, I'd venture to think some of the competition could not stand up, while some others may hold up even better.

That meme with the NF and Berger's made me snort

Sorry to digress from the thread. OP, I see the LRHS/LRTS didn't make your cut, I do think you should give it some consideration
View attachment 7623539

I will look again, would you mind sending me a link or model number? Is it illuminated? Ive looked at so many and Bushnell has several and some are discontinued I may have gotten confused and overlooked it, haha

 

[Joeg26er]

What about The Razor HD LHT?
19.1oz

 

[Glassaholic]

I'm surprised that you speak so highly of the LRHS considering how much you value having a wide FOV.
Everytime I start think about buy a 4.5-18 I look at the FOV specs and can't help but think 18x on the top end is a little lacking and the FOV at 4.5x is very lacking.

There are numerous factors that come into place for choosing a particular scope for a particular rifle. For SPR/DMR long range work, I have somewhat different requirements than I do my dedicated long range and/or competition style rifles.

Yes, there are two drawbacks to the LRHS/LRTS series and that is the limited FOV and the length of the scope. The factors that are in favor of the LRHSi is the weight, the reticle and the price. Used LRHSi scopes as well as GAP's new LRHS2 go for under $1k making them a veritable bargain especially since they have optical performance that is unmatched at this price. The G2H reticle is a brilliant design for SPR/DMR use as the circle of death makes it very easy to pick up center even at lowest magnification, while the reticle was designed for the "hunting" crowd (hence the "H" in G2H) I think it works very well for SPR/DMR type use and quick acquisition.

When compared to the PST II 3-15x44, the LRHS is lighter and offers slightly higher magnification, but it's really the G2H reticle that makes it stand out for me, I wish more manufacturers would offer an "H" reticle with a similar circle/quadrant to their FFP designs for better low magnification use. I normally gravitate to scopes with wide FOV specs like the XTR III, but if I'm going to be using the scope at lower magnifications then I have to consider the reticle. As previously mentioned the XTR III 3.3-18 with SCR2 is just too thin for my taste and would benefit greatly from a thicker and illuminated design. The PST II has illumination, but when push comes to shove, I'd rather have the G2H reticle vs the wider FOV of the PST II and while I think the PST II glass is impressive for its price, I do think the LRHS/LRTS glass has an edge.

 

[Glassaholic]

What about The Razor HD LHT?
19.1oz

For a SFP scope these are quite nice. The turrets are a bit mushy and to be honest I think the PST II series turrets are better, but glass is better than PST II series. Some give and take there.

 

[supercorndogs]

Tango 6 might be tops in FOV sub 2k.

 

[BCP]

The 3-12 lrts bushnell I had with the gap reticule was a good all around scope just kinda unremarkable if that makes sense. I would absolutely buy another one.

 

[Glassaholic]

Tango 6 might be tops in FOV sub 2k.

If only they were lighter... @koshkin believes the Trijicon TenMile 3-18x44 is the reincarnation of the original Tango 6 3-18, my only reservation is the length, but it's just over half inch longer and 2 oz lighter than the LRHS/LRTS so who am I to complain

 

[JDB55]

What about The Razor HD LHT?
19.1oz

I really like this option, the listing on Vortex says Daylight bright? Is this true? Rare to find that in this magnification range. The only question is do I was a 2nd focal plane, I was thinking FFP. Y'all with more experience, how much is a SFP reticle going to obstruct my view at 600-700 yards?

 

[Glassaholic]

I really like this option, the listing on Vortex says Daylight bright? Is this true? Rare to find that in this magnification range. The only question is do I was a 2nd focal plane, I was thinking FFP. Y'all with more experience, how much is a SFP reticle going to obstruct my view at 600-700 yards?

A lot depends on what one considers to be daylight bright. If your idea of daylight bright is Aimpoint then you will be disappointed; however, the illumination on the Razor LHT is comparable to the LRHSi which I consider daylight bright for a long range scope, this means I can see the illumination on bright backdrops during full sun. I would not worry too much with the thickness of the reticle, we are typically shooting 1.5 moa or larger targets and the reticle is no going to obscure that. Scott at Liberty Optics (Snipers Hide Vendor) has the best prices on Vortex for new.

 

[supercorndogs]

If only they were lighter... @koshkin believes the Trijicon TenMile 3-18x44 is the reincarnation of the original Tango 6 3-18, my only reservation is the length, but it's just over half inch longer and 2 oz lighter than the LRHS/LRTS so who am I to complain

I never messed with any of the gen 1 Tango 6 scopes. The genII is 12.4 inches, but not lighter. I guess I should have checked the FOV better too. What I saw was a miss listing for the 5-30 having 24ft FOV like the 4-24. The 3-18 is actually 32ft which is run of the mil like the rest of the line. And 23.5 at 4.5 power for the bushnell is right in line with that and most others.

 

[Neurotic]

I never messed with any of the gen 1 Tango 6 scopes. The genII is 12.4 inches, but not lighter. I guess I should have checked the FOV better too. What I saw was a miss listing for the 5-30 having 24ft FOV like the 4-24. The 3-18 is actually 32ft which is run of the mil like the rest of the line. And 23.5 at 4.5 power for the bushnell is right in line with that and most others.

I looked at the Tango 3-18 and really wanted to like it, but I couldn't get over the listed weight of 37.6 oz. That's about 10 oz more beef than the LRTS, which I couldn't justify.

 

[5RWill]

Trijicon 2.5-10 credo

Dave you have the credo? How do you like it? I the lack of parallax adjustment bothers me.

 

[JDB55]

A lot depends on what one considers to be daylight bright. If your idea of daylight bright is Aimpoint then you will be disappointed; however, the illumination on the Razor LHT is comparable to the LRHSi which I consider daylight bright for a long range scope, this means I can see the illumination on bright backdrops during full sun. I would not worry too much with the thickness of the reticle, we are typically shooting 1.5 moa or larger targets and the reticle is no going to obscure that. Scott at Liberty Optics (Snipers Hide Vendor) has the best prices on Vortex for new.

I'm having a hard time finding the LHRSi. Out of my prior list I posted where would you personally rate this? #1 or lower? Discounting the tract considering it's not out. Also wondering about other people's opinions? Paging Koshkin as well

 

[JDB55]

For anyone interested I just got done talking to Jon Allen from tract and while he couldn't give me specifications fully yet, he said the 2.5-15 tract toric coming out at the end of this year will be a 30mm tube, illuminated, capped windage turret, lighter than the 4-20 toric and have a 44mm objective lens. Just thought someone else may like to know.

 

[OkayshooterSK2]

Hello,

I'm looking for opinions on the right optic for a. SPR AR-15 build. It will have a 20" barrel and my expectation is for it to shoot 500-600 yards. I know there are varying thoughts on magnification ranges for this type of rifle and I'm interested in hearing your recommendation s and the why. My price range is $800ish-1300ish dollars. I plan on running a 45 degree offset RDS so I don't need 1x, but don't want to go as high as a 5-25 due to the scope making the rifle to heavy. Also, I don't need daylight bright but illumination would be nice for dusk and morning. Thanks guys

Primary arms GLX series with the acss reticle. 2.5-10 or 6-24. Punches way above its price range in glass, features and reticle is awesome

 

[JDB55]

Primary arms GLX series with the acss reticle. 2.5-10 or 6-24. Punches way above its price range in glass, features and reticle is awesome

Hmm, I have heard the GLx mentioned. The 4-16x looks intriguing...illuminated, lightweight, short, are the made in the Phillipines? Are these going to be similar to the Viper PST gen 2? For anyone whose looked through both.

 

[OkayshooterSK2]

Honestly I think a little better glass then the viper looking through my eyes. I have a glx and had a viper. Viper is great but the glass clarity of the PA glx, weight, reticle, illumination, zero stop and the all steel internals on turrets make it hard to look away from. Watch TiborasaurusRex’s video on YouTube he just did on them. Less then 1% tracking error. That’s up there with night force, Schmitt and bender, tangent theta reliability

 

[JDB55]

Honestly I think a little better glass then the viper looking through my eyes. I have a glx and had a viper. Viper is great but the glass clarity of the PA glx, weight, reticle, illumination, zero stop and the all steel internals on turrets make it hard to look away from. Watch TiborasaurusRex’s video on YouTube he just did on them. Less then 1% tracking error. That’s up there with night force, Schmitt and bender, tangent theta reliability

Thanks for the heads up, it definitely checks a lot of boxes. I'm going to add it to my list. As I said before, after looking through my brother in law's tract toric 4-20 I'm really interested to see their upcoming 2.5-15 offering, so I probably won't purchase until then. But I'm going to add the GLx PA to it

 

[OkayshooterSK2]

Thanks for the heads up, it definitely checks a lot of boxes. I'm going to add it to my list. As I said before, after looking through my brother in law's tract toric 4-20 I'm really interested to see their upcoming 2.5-15 offering, so I probably won't purchase until then. But I'm going to add the GLx PA to it

Right on. I looked through a tract at a local match. It was their higher magnification one (4.5-30 maybe?) and it was crazy clear. My only thing with it was the turrets seemed a little tall like they’d get caught on a barricade if doing prs style stuff but that’s very very minimal problem ha. So many good options now days! Good luck!

 

[JDB55]

Right on. I looked through a tract at a local match. It was their higher magnification one (4.5-30 maybe?) and it was crazy clear. My only thing with it was the turrets seemed a little tall like they’d get caught on a barricade if doing prs style stuff but that’s very very minimal problem ha. So many good options now days! Good luck!

Yes, that's the exact one I looked through! My hope is they will be shorter, I talked to one of the owners tonight and he said the windage turret will be capped. So I'm hoping they are making these shorter and more for an SPR type application. They are also pretty heavy, so I asked if they would shave weight and he said it would definitely be lighter than the 4-20 which is like 34 ounces. So anyways, I'm having that as an option but thats still in the "unknown" category. I'm really grateful for everyone chiming in, I've got a list going and I'm learning a lot. Thanks to everyone who has and is continuing to give input! When I get this together I'm going to be posting some pics for everyone

 

[JDB55]

Good morning everyone, so yet again I was researching and came across this https://www.opticsplanet.com/u-s-optics-ts-20x-2-5-20x50mm-riflescope.html?_iv_amp=1
The TS20 from US optics. It seems to check almost every box on specs, but I have read a lot of mixed reviews on US optics. Does anyone have any experience with the TS20 specifically or any experience and or caution's about buying a US Optics scope?

What is intriguing for me:
28 ounces, 2.5-20 magnification (though it may not do it well), illumination, Japanese made from my understanding. Does anyone know where the are manufactured in Japan?

 

[Neurotic]

Good morning everyone, so yet again I was researching and came across this https://www.opticsplanet.com/u-s-optics-ts-20x-2-5-20x50mm-riflescope.html?_iv_amp=1
The TS20 from US optics. It seems to check almost every box on specs, but I have read a lot of mixed reviews on US optics. Does anyone have any experience with the TS20 specifically or any experience and or caution's about buying a US Optics scope?

What is intriguing for me:
28 ounces, 2.5-20 magnification (though it may not do it well), illumination, Japanese made from my understanding. Does anyone know where the are manufactured in Japan?

I'm pretty certain all the TS line are Chinese. I've seen a few posts here stating the TS-20 was Japanese, but couldn't find anything to support that claim, and more information to disprove it. The third review on the OP page even states it's made in China.

 

[JDB55]

I'm pretty certain all the TS line are Chinese. I've seen a few posts here stating the TS-20 was Japanese, but couldn't find anything to support that claim, and more information to disprove it. The third review on the OP page even states it's made in China.

Oh really? Wow, thanks for that. Kinda crazy they would charge that for a chinese made scope...

 

[supercorndogs]

PA 2.5-10 GLX only has a 35ft FOV. You can get that FOV in a 3-12 or 3-15 scope.

 

[Neurotic]

Oh really? Wow, thanks for that. Kinda crazy they would charge that for a chinese made scope...

It looks like the TS-20 is available is the $900 range, which isn't unheard of for Chinese scopes. The well received and Chinese manufactured Athlon Ares ETR is typically $1,050 - $1,150, although it has more positive consumer sentiment than th US Optics TS line.

It is an interesting price range with scopes manufactured in China (high end), Philippines, Japan (low end) and Eastern Europe (mid range).

 

[JDB55]

It looks like the TS-20 is available is the $900 range, which isn't unheard of for Chinese scopes. The well received and Chinese manufactured Athlon Ares ETR is typically $1,050 - $1,150, although it has more positive consumer sentiment than th US Optics TS line.

It is an interesting price range with scopes manufactured in China (high end), Philippines, Japan (low end) and Eastern Europe (mid range).

While I know good scopes can be made in china, I previously owned the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10 and for $450 I think it is a great scope, for that close to 1k mark I feel like generally speaking it would be better to get Phillipines or Japanese quality over anything in China. Is that how everyone else generally looks at scopes and where things are made?(knowing that it's subjective and dependent on each individual scope or company).

 

[TacticalPlinker]

There are numerous factors that come into place for choosing a particular scope for a particular rifle. For SPR/DMR long range work, I have somewhat different requirements than I do my dedicated long range and/or competition style rifles.

Yes, there are two drawbacks to the LRHS/LRTS series and that is the limited FOV and the length of the scope. The factors that are in favor of the LRHSi is the weight, the reticle and the price. Used LRHSi scopes as well as GAP's new LRHS2 go for under $1k making them a veritable bargain especially since they have optical performance that is unmatched at this price. The G2H reticle is a brilliant design for SPR/DMR use as the circle of death makes it very easy to pick up center even at lowest magnification, while the reticle was designed for the "hunting" crowd (hence the "H" in G2H) I think it works very well for SPR/DMR type use and quick acquisition.

When compared to the PST II 3-15x44, the LRHS is lighter and offers slightly higher magnification, but it's really the G2H reticle that makes it stand out for me, I wish more manufacturers would offer an "H" reticle with a similar circle/quadrant to their FFP designs for better low magnification use. I normally gravitate to scopes with wide FOV specs like the XTR III, but if I'm going to be using the scope at lower magnifications then I have to consider the reticle. As previously mentioned the XTR III 3.3-18 with SCR2 is just too thin for my taste and would benefit greatly from a thicker and illuminated design. The PST II has illumination, but when push comes to shove, I'd rather have the G2H reticle vs the wider FOV of the PST II and while I think the PST II glass is impressive for its price, I do think the LRHS/LRTS glass has an edge.

Agreed ! The LRHSi clearly shows its muscle in real world use. The stats just don't do it justice. Gotta have a mini RDS to cover the bottom end for an SPR as pictured on yours. Its a beast at 100 yrds and out -- especially in a cluttered range.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

I run that scope like a big ACOG. I don't pretend its fast at close range. Its not. Thats why on a semiautomatic you need an RDS. But it really crushes time on target when you push out like a DMR driver. The built in duplex draws your eyes to the donut for the big targets , the drops starting at 1 mil handle the rest at 300 and so on (77 TMK). Its ridiculously fast at 8x + out to 400 (as a precision optic).

I can't tell you how many times I called them asking for an illuminated version in the 3-12. The LRTSi was also fast, but not like the Hunter. As stated - its looong , but it makes up for that ...

 

[JDB55]

I came across the Riton X7 conquer 3-18x50 FFP illuminated, does anyone have any experience with Riton Optics the X7 series or anything at all? Kinda hard to find much about them. Horror stories? Lol. Seems like Athlon or the Brownells 3-18 but a little lighter.

 

[OkayshooterSK2]

I came across the Riton X7 conquer 3-18x50 FFP illuminated, does anyone have any experience with Riton Optics the X7 series or anything at all? Kinda hard to find much about them. Horror stories? Lol. Seems like Athlon or the Brownells 3-18 but a little lighter.

I run the X5 and have ran it through 5 matches with no problems. Great glass for the money, especially if you can get a LE/MIL discount. I’m ordering an X7 soon I think cause I like this one so much

 

[sheepdog697]

3-18 vortex razor gen 2 would be nice in that price range.

 

[OkayshooterSK2]

3-18 vortex razor gen 2 would be nice in that price range.

Yes. Especially if you could find used one.

 

[Nikon147]

I admit, Nightforce is a marketing genius. I wonder if that ad about warranty was from the Jeff Huber days? Anyone out there with a boatload of cash wanting to do some torture tests to about $50k worth of scopes I've seen the NF videos of hammering a spike and it still shoots straight, another frozen in an ice block and shot with a shotgun and it shoots straight. Like I said, marketing genius, but I wonder how much more "durable" or "virtually indestructible" NF scopes are compared to the competition, I'd venture to think some of the competition could not stand up, while some others may hold up even better.

That meme with the NF and Berger's made me snort

Sorry to digress from the thread. OP, I see the LRHS/LRTS didn't make your cut, I do think you should give it some consideration
View attachment 7623539

This man speaks truth.

I have an LRTS on my DMR, and an LHRS2 on order from GA Precision.

Great little scope at a great price.

The LRTS glass quality punches way above its price.

 

[JDB55]

The Vortex Razor gen II would be top of the list if it wasn't for 1. Being a bit out ofy budget range and 2. It's a chunky guy

 

[JDB55]

The Riton is definitely interesting, I was checking out their website today and saw some of their LPVO offerings. Saw they are offering a 28mm objective lens on some, I wonder how that effects the scope on 1x, I know it should help on higher magnification.

 

[mr_fullmetal]

Old setup I keep going back to. Nightforce NXS 2.5-10 Aimpoint T1 offset. But its heavy...

 

[koshkin]

Probably related to the "old ways"...

The epoxy is not as uncommon as you think. For example, every single optical element in March scopes is cemented in the same way, so if you need to take on apart, it has to sit in a temperature chamber for a few days first.

Other manufacturers do similar things as well to varying degrees.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

I never messed with any of the gen 1 Tango 6 scopes. The genII is 12.4 inches, but not lighter. I guess I should have checked the FOV better too. What I saw was a miss listing for the 5-30 having 24ft FOV like the 4-24. The 3-18 is actually 32ft which is run of the mil like the rest of the line. And 23.5 at 4.5 power for the bushnell is right in line with that and most others.

Gen2 Tango 6 3-18x44 is a slot shorter and a lot heavier than Gen1.

ILya

 

[5RWill]

Old setup I keep going back to. Nightforce NXS 2.5-10 Aimpoint T1 offset. But its heavy...

What's the weight like? More pics please? I'm curious as to how the profile of the 2.5-10x42 looks on the mk12. I'm trying to get a Mod H together and want the 2.5-10x42.

 

[JDB55]

Old setup I keep going back to. Nightforce NXS 2.5-10 Aimpoint T1 offset. But its heavy...

Pretty sweet

 

[JDB55]

Just dropping in with another question, found another optic/optic brand I know nothing about. But it's peaked my interest, wondering if anyone has any experience/educated opinions on German precision optics or this optic specifically?

SPECTRA 8X 2-16x44i BRi | GPO USA

Does anyone know where they are manufactured/OEM? Thanks

 

[Neurotic]

I cannot recall where I saw it, but their products are from LOW; at least the higher end ones.

 

[JDB55]

I cannot recall where I saw it, but their products are from LOW; at least the higher end ones.

Really? Thanks. This would take my interest to the next level. The only problem I have with the aforementioned scope is it being SFP. I found this one in their "tactical" branded line- GPOTAC 8X 2.5-20x50i
https://gpo-usa.com/product/gpotac-8x-25-20x50i/
If these are confirmed LOW Japan manufactured this could be my answer. I was just hoping someone had some experience, seems there isnt much on them.

 

[jda2631]

I'm intrigued by the Athlon Helos BTR 2-12x42. released end of last year I'm pretty sure. I like the reticle, FFP (with a donut in the reticle to be seen easily on low power), zero stop, locking turrets, illumination, only 11.8" long and 25 ounces. Not a whole of info out there about it, but it's the perfect DMR scope on paper IMO. Athlon really listened to consumers on this one I think. Wish more manufacturers would release a scope like this, and for athlon to "recreate" this scope in a higher end line with better glass.

ETR 1-10 Also looks great and in your price range.

At the top end of your price range if you can find a used one, I'm a huge fan of the 3.6-18 Mark 5HD. They are great, can find them used under $1500.

 

[deersniper]

Nightforce's marketing department. It's a lifestyle, LOL.

View attachment 7623118

It's really a mixed bag though. They can take a bullet in a location where there are no critical components and keep working. But they don't do so hot when subjected to the rigors of the United States' package delivery system. Maybe MIL is just tougher than MOA

View attachment 7623120

View attachment 7623124

Obviously that bent one is a counterfeit