Looking at dipping my toe into a clip on for some longer range shooting 500+ yards. I was looking at either a pvs-24lr wp high fom or pvs-30 wp high fom. I can get the 30s for about 500 more than the 24lr. Anyone have any advise?
Night Vision Nightvision for long range
- Thread starter Raptorman2014
- Start date
You really can't go wrong with either. Both are superb optics.
PVS-30 - Heavier, 50bmg rated, focus is way out front
24LR - Lighter, 7.62 rated, better focus nob location
Preston
PVS-30 - Heavier, 50bmg rated, focus is way out front
24LR - Lighter, 7.62 rated, better focus nob location
Preston
Curious on the current generation of thermals for this application? Seems like you still have to heat steel in some instances to shoot with thermal even at night. I now resolution is getting pretty good but FOV is the sacrifice there
The PVS-30 and PVS-24LR have approximately the same overall performance. Each has its tradeoffs; there are more lenses in the optical path of PVS-30, so more light is lost going through the layers of glass than with the mirror system (catadioptric lens) in the 24LR, but the catadioptric lens on the 24LR is smaller, so less overall light can enter. This tradeoff results in the image intensification being about equal between the two. Refurb 30s are less expensive, but typically have older, lower spec tubes - ~1800 FOM GP for the 30 vs ~2400 FOM WP for the 24LR.
Practically, the darkest dark nights require supplemental IR illumination for both clip-ons in order to see long distance. On a moonless, cloudless night with some sky glow, I've been able to just barely make out an IPSC target at 400 meters against a high contrast background with a PVS-30. Moonlight significantly improves the performance, with 1000 meter shots being possible under a full moon. As an aside, supplemental IR is not a bad thing to have, since it enables you to see mirage and trace in total darkness.
Each clip-on can potentially be retubed - Jay at Sure Shot Night Vision has the knowledge and tooling to do both the 30s (extremely tricky) and the 24LRs (less tricky).
One significant difference is in the tail end of the optics, where the Risley prism sits. The 30 has a shorter tail section, which translates to a larger tolerance for angular misalignment with the day scope. That is, if your scope is on a 20 MOA rail, but the clip-on is mounted to a flat front rail, then the 30 experiences less POI shift (in my experience, none) due to the difference in angle between it and the day scope. The 24LR, on the other hand, has a long tail section, which makes it more sensitive to angular misalignment, so it should be mounted in the same plane as the day scope - either on a continuous rail, or one which is at least parallel to the day scope rail. Both clip-ons tolerate being offset horizontally and vertically.
The difference in the lengths of the tails can also make a difference in whether the clip-on fits a specific rifle. A long objective bell scope combined with a short chassis can leave too little space to fit the 24LR.
Finally, it is technically possible to adjust the 24LR's collimation, since a Risley prism adjustment mechanism is accessible by removing a small rubber plug on the tail end. Do not try this if you don't have the correct optical equipment to check the collimation - that's a great way to void the warranty on a very expensive piece of gear. Conversely, the Risley prism of the 30 is epoxied in place.
Practically, the darkest dark nights require supplemental IR illumination for both clip-ons in order to see long distance. On a moonless, cloudless night with some sky glow, I've been able to just barely make out an IPSC target at 400 meters against a high contrast background with a PVS-30. Moonlight significantly improves the performance, with 1000 meter shots being possible under a full moon. As an aside, supplemental IR is not a bad thing to have, since it enables you to see mirage and trace in total darkness.
Each clip-on can potentially be retubed - Jay at Sure Shot Night Vision has the knowledge and tooling to do both the 30s (extremely tricky) and the 24LRs (less tricky).
One significant difference is in the tail end of the optics, where the Risley prism sits. The 30 has a shorter tail section, which translates to a larger tolerance for angular misalignment with the day scope. That is, if your scope is on a 20 MOA rail, but the clip-on is mounted to a flat front rail, then the 30 experiences less POI shift (in my experience, none) due to the difference in angle between it and the day scope. The 24LR, on the other hand, has a long tail section, which makes it more sensitive to angular misalignment, so it should be mounted in the same plane as the day scope - either on a continuous rail, or one which is at least parallel to the day scope rail. Both clip-ons tolerate being offset horizontally and vertically.
The difference in the lengths of the tails can also make a difference in whether the clip-on fits a specific rifle. A long objective bell scope combined with a short chassis can leave too little space to fit the 24LR.
Finally, it is technically possible to adjust the 24LR's collimation, since a Risley prism adjustment mechanism is accessible by removing a small rubber plug on the tail end. Do not try this if you don't have the correct optical equipment to check the collimation - that's a great way to void the warranty on a very expensive piece of gear. Conversely, the Risley prism of the 30 is epoxied in place.
Setting the focus in a 24LR is easier than with the 30, for two reasons. First, the focus adjustment on the 24LR is closer and adjustable with your fingers; the PVS-30 was apparently designed for orangutans. The focus adjustment on the 30 is so far out front, and so stiff, that it's not really practical if you're mounting it in front of a long scope. It's really meant to work in conjunction with shorter scopes, like the Leupold Mark 5HD. Second, the catadioptric lens on the 24LR makes point sources of light look like donuts when they're out of focus, so to focus you just dial away the donut.
Since you're looking at a relatively small difference in price and optical performance between the two, I'd consider recoil tolerance first - go with the PVS-30 for a magnum, SCAR, M14, or anything else that beats up optics. Second, I'd consider how each fits your rifle(s). If your intent is to mount it on an AR, you'll have to keep enough real estate clear on the rail to fit the thing, so it can be a game of musical chairs to get the back up iron sights, and illuminator and laser switches, and whatever other bullshit you've decorated your rifle with, to all fit on the rail and still leave space for the clip-on. A bolt rifle in a chassis can also limit mounting space, as I mentioned in my previous post. Third, I'd consider weight and balance. The PVS-30 is significantly heavier than the PVS-24LR, but not so heavy that you'd be stuck shooting from a bipod or tripod. The extra weight of the 30 can also help balance out the weight of the receiver and buttstock when mounted on a tripod.
Since you're looking at a relatively small difference in price and optical performance between the two, I'd consider recoil tolerance first - go with the PVS-30 for a magnum, SCAR, M14, or anything else that beats up optics. Second, I'd consider how each fits your rifle(s). If your intent is to mount it on an AR, you'll have to keep enough real estate clear on the rail to fit the thing, so it can be a game of musical chairs to get the back up iron sights, and illuminator and laser switches, and whatever other bullshit you've decorated your rifle with, to all fit on the rail and still leave space for the clip-on. A bolt rifle in a chassis can also limit mounting space, as I mentioned in my previous post. Third, I'd consider weight and balance. The PVS-30 is significantly heavier than the PVS-24LR, but not so heavy that you'd be stuck shooting from a bipod or tripod. The extra weight of the 30 can also help balance out the weight of the receiver and buttstock when mounted on a tripod.
Might toss a 27 into the mix. Best optics of any clipon when it comes to light gathering. GP factory units are .50 BMG rated as well. Retubed WP units are spectacular, but at the cost of recoil rating.
27 is most difficult to retube of them all.
27 is most difficult to retube of them all.
Your two posts in this thread may very well be some of the most interesting and informative things I've ever read here pertaining to night vision, thank you for taking the time to type all of that.
My experience with in-line I^2 clip-ons is limited to refurb PVS-30s and PVS-27s. I offloaded my 30s after picking up my first of many 27s. The passive performance difference was pretty stark to me. If that is an option for you, do yourself a favor and look into the PVS-27.
The supply of refurb'ed PVS30s has dried up significantly unfortunately.
It's a tank though, drive nails with it, bludgeon people with it, etc. Wouldn't want to carry it on a long patrol.
UNS SR is around the same price range, fits nicely on most carbines and doesn't completely ruin the balance of the rifle.
Our range only goes to 420 yards and I need to do some mowing around the last target there, but I was banging steels at 100, 200 and 300 yards the other night with my UNS SR and ACOG
It's a tank though, drive nails with it, bludgeon people with it, etc. Wouldn't want to carry it on a long patrol.
UNS SR is around the same price range, fits nicely on most carbines and doesn't completely ruin the balance of the rifle.
Our range only goes to 420 yards and I need to do some mowing around the last target there, but I was banging steels at 100, 200 and 300 yards the other night with my UNS SR and ACOG
I heard from a buddy connected to L3 that L3 just officially updated the recoil ratings to 338LM. And that they didn't change the manufacturing process so that is supposed to be for all former units made.
Apparently L3 didn't want to spend the cash to get them recoil rated for the larger caliber. Not sure if this is all official though as I haven't seen updated docs.
I had not heard that but second hand information is all I've got... have heard of an L3 rep with a couple thousand rounds of 338 under his 24LR as well
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