First Time Shooting ELR

RandoPracticalShooting · Sunday at 3:50 PM

Hey everyone, just wanted to share some of the experience I had while setting my own personal record for farthest hit this weekend.

I had the opportunity to go out to a range while visiting some family and I brought the MRAD with 300 PRC barrel. I had the personal goal of 2500 yards as that’s the max for the range, but only was able to make it happen at 2158 yards.

I wanted to ask a question or two to those of yall with more experience regarding wind and ELR shooting all together.

-Wind calls from AB Quantum were accurate out to a mile (round was still supersonic) then at the 2k mark I found myself holding a ridiculous and inconsistent amount to get impacts. Input? I’m pretty confident I was putting the right data in, and wind was generally consistent from me to the target with what I was seeing at my own location.

-Elevation data, again between AB Quantum and a kestrel which is still just AB vs AB. What are you guys doing to true up at distance? I’m familiar with MV truing, CDF, and DSF, but what are y’all doing for those longer distances to increase first round hit probability?

Pictures for your time! Picture with red square is the shooting platform as viewed from the target.

Taylorbok · 2025-07-21T12:04:55-0400

That CDF is pretty new. My understanding is CDF should be used to true supersonic and DSF is for subsonic.

I had a chance to true DSF about a month ago, my data was good out to about 2400 then it seemed to fall apart. With 400gr CE Lazers I had over 1mil of discrepancy at 3000 Yards

RandoPracticalShooting · 2025-07-21T12:08:42-0400

Taylorbok said:
That CDF is pretty new. My understanding is CDF should be used to true supersonic and DSF is for subsonic.

I had a chance to true DSF about a month ago, my data was good out to about 2400 then it seemed to fall apart. With 400gr CE Lazers I had over 1mil of discrepancy at 3000 Yards

Yeah I guess that’s kinda what I was experiencing was just a lack of fidelity in the subsonic area.

Taylorbok · 2025-07-21T12:14:12-0400

RandoPracticalShooting said:
Yeah I guess that’s kinda what I was experiencing was just a lack of fidelity in the subsonic area.

what bullet are you shooting? what distance is it going subsonic?

The only way to really tell what the wind is doing between you and the target is base it off where the last bullet went.
Headwinds and tail winds cause insane hold changes at ELR distances.
At KRG match they had a target at 2500 yards and we had a shifty tail wind, IIRC the wind holds were varying over 4 mils during a string of fire.

RandoPracticalShooting · 2025-07-21T12:16:49-0400

Taylorbok said:
what bullet are you shooting? what distance is it going subsonic?

Hornady 225gr ELD-M
1380fps @1600yds
1050fps @2200yds

Taylorbok · 2025-07-21T12:52:29-0400

Ya true your DSF in the subsonic area then.
Be aware that wind will affect your elevation, so make sure your kestrel wind hold matches to the actual shot before you true your DSF.

RandoPracticalShooting · 2025-07-21T12:53:26-0400

100%, that’s why I didn’t bother trying it that day because I’d rather wait for a day with less wind to try and remove more variation as I was shooting in some 17-20mph gusts.

Taylorbok · 2025-07-21T13:40:37-0400

RandoPracticalShooting said:
100%, that’s why I didn’t bother trying it that day because I’d rather wait for a day with less wind to try and remove more variation as I was shooting in some 17-20mph gusts.

Ya gusting or shifting winds will make it harder

SIDS01 · 2025-07-21T14:22:42-0400

RandoPracticalShooting said:
Hornady 225gr ELD-M
1380fps @1600yds
1050fps @2200yds

What was your muzzle velocity? Avg, SD, ES

Factory ammo?

RandoPracticalShooting · 2025-07-21T14:50:39-0400

SIDS01 said:
What was you muzzle velocity? Avg, SD, ES

Factory ammo?

2880fps avg
11fps SD
can’t remember ES off the top of my head but it was around 60fps
Yes, Hornady 225gr ELDM

Taylorbok · 2025-07-21T14:58:04-0400

I just assumed it was handloads. There's almost no sense even bothering with that big of ES. With a spread like that, at that distance you're looking over a mil of elevation , I'm not sure how big your target is but that's bigger than most targets I've ever seen. You will have an insanely hard time properly truing that load.

I'd get into reloading if this is something you want to pursue. The lower you get those numbers the better but most people shoot for single digit SD and ES under 20

EDIT: His post originally said 60 ES

RandoPracticalShooting · 2025-07-21T15:02:49-0400

Taylorbok said:
I just assumed it was handloads. There's almost no sense even bothering with that big of ES. With a spread like that, at that distance you're looking over a mil of elevation , I'm not sure how big your target is but that's bigger than most targets I've ever seen. You will have an insanely hard time properly truing that load.

I'd get into reloading if this is something you want to pursue. The lower you get those numbers the better but most people shoot for single digit SD and ES under 20

Yeah for sure, I plan on getting into it in the future, just haven’t had the spare time to spend loading.

Target was 3ftx3ft I was honestly just happy to have hit it.

SIDS01 · 2025-07-21T16:33:24-0400

That sounds like it was a pretty good first effort.

You may already have figured out that chasing your misses isn't the best strategy. Figuring out where the center of the group is and having the discipline to accept the misses until one lands in the center of the group takes practice. That's the vertical, you have the same problem with the wind, but the center really is moving.

It takes a lot of reloading to even consistently match that factory ammo velocity spread. When you reach the point where 10 shot strings are consistently below 20 fps ES, it'll be time to really bear down on BC spread. Until then, just stay away from the stuff with unusually high advertised BCs or anything with a sharp point.

Before you start truing away, consider that 10 F in air temperature has a similar effect on trajectory as 1% on the BC. The max ordinate of a 2200 yard shot with that bullet is about 70 feet. The temperature can easily be 10-15 F lower than ground level on a clear day. Maybe 10 degrees higher at dawn after a clear night.

The BC will vary a couple/few percent between shots, so even if you correct individual shots for velocity, there is that plus a few tenths of a mil uncertainty from the precision.

None of this makes it impossible but nobody can outrun the bear. As the joke goes, you don't have to. Some will consistently get hits sooner and bleed hits to the conditions slower than others.

RandoPracticalShooting · 2025-07-21T16:36:59-0400

SIDS01 said:
That sounds like it was a pretty good first effort.

You may already have figured out that chasing your misses isn't the best strategy. Figuring out where the center of the group is and having the discipline to accept the misses until one lands in the center of the group takes practice. That's the vertical, you have the same problem with the wind, but the center really is moving.

It takes a lot of reloading to even consistently match that factory ammo velocity spread. When you reach the point where 10 shot strings are consistently below 20 fps ES, it'll be time to really bear down on BC spread. Until then, just stay away from the stuff with unusually high advertised BCs or anything with a sharp point.

Before you start truing away, consider that 10 F in air temperature has a similar effect on trajectory as 1% on the BC. The max ordinate of a 2200 yard shot with that bullet is about 70 feet. The temperature can easily be 10-15 F lower than ground level on a clear day. Maybe 10 degrees higher at dawn after a clear night.

The BC will vary a couple/few percent between shots, so even if you correct individual shots for velocity, there is that plus a few tenths of a mil uncertainty from the precision.

None of this makes it impossible but nobody can outrun the bear. As the joke goes, you don't have to. Some will consistently get hits sooner and bleed hits to the conditions slower than others.

Thanks for the feedback man it’s appreciated!

Definitely my first effort at beyond a mile. Up until this point I’ve done some PRS with .308 and 6.5 along with PRS22 and then just the regular “how far can I hit with this .22” type stuff. Up until now my furthest hit was 1200 yards with a 6.5CM LaRue and realistically it wasn’t very challenging for the gun to do it so this was a great experience and it allowed me to have a lot more confidence in the ranges that I realistically will use the rifle.

Taylorbok · 2025-07-21T17:12:00-0400

SIDS01 said:
You may already have figured out that chasing your misses isn't the best strategy. Figuring out where the center of the group is and having the discipline to accept the misses until one lands in the center of the group takes practice. That's the vertical, you have the same problem with the wind, but the center really is moving.

If you're just out there having fun and hoping to hit steel allowing a group to form and then chasing the center of it works well but if you are shooting matches and trying to win you can't afford that and basically have to chase the miss, you can be a little conservative on corrections if you want but IMO every correction should be at least half the target size. (unless you are trying to correct on plate)

SIDS01 · 2025-07-22T12:32:36-0400

I was trying to draw a hard distinction between ELR and classic target shooting for a new shooter. For the case of a 36" target beyond 2000 yards using factory ammo, it'd become obvious after a few shots. When the group is much larger than the target, chasing the last miss only guarantees that all the outliers will become 2 misses. Forgetting what happened with the shots before the last is only 1 step past a goldfish. Starting out, a shooter is going to be at task saturation and needs to build a base of fundamentals before they'll be relaxed enough to start playing mental games, so I kept it simple.

What you've described is how an experienced ELR shooter looks at it based on previous experience. You've been burned enough to know corrections need to be hedged.

The first shot on the first target of the day will be completely dependent on your solver inputs. By the third shot, there is enough information that many draw conclusions with absolute certainty during load development. Somebody help out an old guy and insert a sarcasm emoji here. After 5, with appropriate error bars, you should have some idea of how your elevation estimate lined up and what the wind values were for that target.

Factor in the new range, max ordinate, terrain, current wind conditions, and your firing solution for the next target should be improved. No guarantees, but definitely information you'd rather a competitor didn't have if you couldn't have the same. We can get pretty good at estimating what the average velocity is going to be for the first string of the day based on ammo temperature, but I don't know any that can estimate the flight time averaged temperature along a bullet's trajectory. I measured and evaluated that type of information for 30+ years and can't do it to the level needed to match a BC CDM. At 2000 yards, 10 F has a similar impact to the vertical as 1% on the BC. 5 degrees last time, 5 degrees the other way this time, and you're pretty much there. On the clock, you don't really have time to chase where the error came from so applying what was learned to the next target is a pretty coarse correction. I'd be really surprised if you weren't already doing some version of this.

I'm old and as far as shooting is concerned, it shows up in 2 places. Vision and short term memory. The mental trick I use to retain the last 3-5 shots is visualization on the reticle. As opposed to the goldfish, people are supposed to be able to quickly learn lists of 5, plus or minus 2 depending on complexity and stress level. If I try to remember the hold and the impact coordinates, especially relative to the target, I'm into TMI after the first shot. If I just remember where the bullet hit on the reticle relative to the center, it's pretty much 1 item instead of 4 with each shot. It's easy to remember the extreme in each direction, so retaining 4 is pretty likely. If you're new and there is chaos followed by a struggle to find the target again in time to spot the shot every time you pull the trigger, you'll need to work that out before this type of thing can even be considered. Don't be in too much of a hurry to fix that, games are a lot more exciting when they're new and overwhelming.

bulletbluesky · 2025-07-22T16:29:47-0400

RandoPracticalShooting said:
Hornady 225gr ELD-M
1380fps @1600yds
1050fps @2200yds

Maybe you're dealing with "subsonically bad" bullet phenomenon.
If that is the case, factory ammo or handloads don't make big difference as regards success of engaging 2500 yard target.
Sorry

RandoPracticalShooting · 2025-07-22T16:32:23-0400

bulletbluesky said:
Maybe you're dealing with "subsonically bad" bullet phenomenon.
If that is the case, factory ammo or handloads don't make big difference as regards success of engaging 2500 yard target.
Sorry

Could you elaborate? Never heard the term.

bulletbluesky · 2025-07-22T16:36:16-0400

RandoPracticalShooting said:
Could you elaborate? Never heard the term.

Subsonically "bad" bullets

ELD shooting, in most general terms, includes supersonic, transonic, and subsonic flight of a projectile. Some rifle bullets are better than others going transonic and subsonic phases of flight. Dynamical instabilities during subsonic flight might emerge downrange leading to increasing yawing &...

www.snipershide.com

RandoPracticalShooting · 2025-07-22T16:40:03-0400

bulletbluesky said:
Subsonically "bad" bullets

ELD shooting, in most general terms, includes supersonic, transonic, and subsonic flight of a projectile. Some rifle bullets are better than others going transonic and subsonic phases of flight. Dynamical instabilities during subsonic flight might emerge downrange leading to increasing yawing &...

www.snipershide.com

Thanks, I’ll check that out. I know Berger has a good reputation for transonic/subsonic performance so once I start hand loading I’ll give some a go.

First Time Shooting ELR

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