Precision Rifle Gear Chad vs Botnia

#51
jthor said:
I’ve shot one round through a Stringer and will say it was enough concussion for me not to try another round.

However, nowadays I recommend none of them. Not the DN5, CHAD, Stringer, Botnia and so on. If you have to use a brake, use the straighter ported ACE or Hawkins Updraft. I used the CHAD and was apart of the original preorder debacle and used it quite a bit. After 2 matches this year I felt like I had a concussion after 2 days of shooting and decided to move away from it.

For the health of the shooters and longevity of the sport I believe suppressors will start to dominate with brakes soon becoming a minority. Only one year of the PRS incentivizing suppressor use the number of suppressors have gone way up and companies like RecoilX make it even more enticing.

There’s nothing about constant concussion to a shooter that can be healthy for you.
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I said something similar years ago on this site. As more science comes out we're going to find these concussive brakes are contributing to TBI. Even Kahl mentioned it on a podcast the other day and the reason he switched to a can.

Problem is none of the canned brakes are even close to the effectiveness of a modern brake. Your fundamentals have to be perfect and it's why guys like bushman can win with a ace despite it being a far inferior brake. So for people outside the top 30 or 50 shooters in the world the brake is a competitive advantage IMO. If someone was paying me to shoot for a living and I could spend everyday on the range it would probably work. For most of us with limited time and reps, it's going to be hard to overcome the limitations.
 
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#52
DeathBeforeDismount said:
I said something similar years ago on this site. As more science comes out we're going to find these conclusive breaks are contributing to TBI. Even Kahl mentioned it on a podcast the other day and the reason he switched to a can.

Problem is none of the canned brakes are even close to the effectiveness of a modern brake. Your fundamentals have to be perfect and it's why guys like bushman can win with a ace despite it being a far inferior brake. So for people outside the top 30 or 50 shooters in the world the brake is a competitive advantage IMO. If someone was paying me to shoot for a living and I could spend everyday on the range it would probably work. For most of us with limited time and reps, it's going to be hard to overcome the limitations.
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My answer to that is simply folks need to focus on fundamentals vs trying to buy their way to avoid it/putting in the work. I’m guilty of that in the past and have since changed my whole approach due to the negative effects high perforce concussive brakes have.

If a concussive brake starts to affect your cognitive ability then I don’t believe it’s an advantage.

Another thing is I’ve noticed I see way more shooting suppressed than I ever did using a TMB or CHAD. A part of this is the fact your ocular nerve (might not be the right word) shuts off for a split second during the concussion of the brake. So regardless of suppressor having more recoil, I see more with the suppressor. Additionally I can think better on the clock when shooting suppressed vs a brake.
 
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#53
I had the opposite experience. I shot a can for the first time at a 2 day recently and it was by far the worst match ive shot in 2 years. I couldn't see anything. The gun took forever to settle. It was a braked can as well. Probably not as good as a mav or the new recoil x, but still not terrible.

Going back to the CHAD for now. I just shoot much better with it. I do have one of the recoil x comp brakes sitting here just waiting to buy the can for it. Might give that a shot in the off season but its going to take alot of reps to get comfortable moving to a can.
 
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#55
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Problem is none of the canned brakes are even close to the effectiveness of a modern brake. Your fundamentals have to be perfect and it's why guys like bushman can win with a ace despite it being a far inferior brake. So for people outside the top 30 or 50 shooters in the world the brake is a competitive advantage IMO. If someone was paying me to shoot for a living and I could spend everyday on the range it would probably work. For most of us with limited time and reps, it's going to be hard to overcome the limitations.
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On these heavy open guns, I beg to differ. I have a Maverick on my Dasher, and now a Scythe STM with the new Recoil X brake on my 25x47. Neither rifle move more than a mil off target and most of the time it is less than half a mil.

I ran a Chad on my 25 before moving to a can, and honestly I feel that I am not losing anything, if anything I feel more at an advantage because I don't blink when the gun goes off anymore.
 
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#56
jthor said:
My answer to that is simply folks need to focus on fundamentals vs trying to buy their way to avoid it/putting in the work. I’m guilty of that in the past and have since changed my whole approach due to the negative effects high perforce concussive brakes have.

If a concussive brake starts to affect your cognitive ability then I don’t believe it’s an advantage.

Another thing is I’ve noticed I see way more shooting suppressed than I ever did using a TMB or CHAD. A part of this is the fact your ocular nerve (might not be the right word) shuts off for a split second during the concussion of the brake. So regardless of suppressor having more recoil, I see more with the suppressor. Additionally I can think better on the clock when shooting suppressed vs a brake.
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This.

I've never had an issue spotting impacts while shooting suppressed.

But I can see how shooting suppressed would cause issues with the Jim See school of shooters that employ free recoil and trigger slapping techniques.
 
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#57
CK1.0 said:
Yep, I don’t know both sides and both versions of the story… and don’t really care to. Because what I do know is, the guy who basically put a certain company on the map and got them rolling, now wont even say their name… and to me, that says a lot. YMMV.

Guys are free to listen to the podcast and decide what they think for themselves…
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Exactly. People know both sides of the story, they simply don’t care about my side of the story. I don’t have any high profile or influential friends in the scene, the Utah crowd were my friends but they all turned their backs on me because that’s the type of people they are and when they did, PRS management and their friends followed suit. So naturally the status quo has been against me for a long time. Which is why and how the counterfeit chad situation was deemed acceptable by the community, dehumanize me and anything that happens after that is justified and okay because I’m bad and you’re fighting a righteous fight. Even stealing my design, bullying me on and offline constantly and trying to push me out of the sport and ruin my life. Your attitude proves my point exactly. People that don’t know me or anything about me, going out of their way to say and do things to hurt me, when they’ve got no idea what they’re talking about. Which is fine, you do you, I’d rather be respected by the real ones and hated by the sheep than the other way round. I’ve never been much for acquaintances anyways, I’m too busy inventing things the sheep will try and copy.
 
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#58
rydah said:
Exactly. People know both sides of the story, they simply don’t care about my side of the story. I don’t have any high profile or influential friends in the scene, the Utah crowd were my friends but they all turned their backs on me because that’s the type of people they are and when they did, PRS management and their friends followed suit. So naturally the status quo has been against me for a long time. Which is why and how the counterfeit chad situation was deemed acceptable by the community, dehumanize me and anything that happens after that is justified and okay because I’m bad and you’re fighting a righteous fight. Even stealing my design, bullying me on and offline constantly and trying to push me out of the sport and ruin my life. Your attitude proves my point exactly. People that don’t know me or anything about me, going out of their way to say and do things to hurt me, when they’ve got no idea what they’re talking about. Which is fine, you do you, I’d rather be respected by the real ones and hated by the sheep than the other way round. I’ve never been much for acquaintances anyways, I’m too busy inventing things the sheep will try and copy.
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Ahh don't let him get you down, He is a just blow hard dick sucker :ROFLMAO:
 
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#59
I own a Chad and shot a Botnia Maxi. Both were on a 6 Dasher and I’d need more back to back time to tell a difference. They are both extremely effective. The blast of the Chad isn’t bad for the shooter, but I always double up on ear pro when using a brake. The comment an earlier post made about sometimes feeling wind blow over you with the Chad is an accurate description.

I’ve been happy with the Chad and had a buddy order one after trying my rifle. I’m sure the Botnia would also be good but it’s just plain ugly and the import process is a turn off as well.
 
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#60
TylerN said:
I own a Chad and shot a Botnia Maxi. Both were on a 6 Dasher and I’d need more back to back time to tell a difference. They are both extremely effective. The blast of the Chad isn’t bad for the shooter, but I always double up on ear pro when using a brake. The comment an earlier post made about sometimes feeling wind blow over you with the Chad is an accurate description.

I’ve been happy with the Chad and had a buddy order one after trying my rifle. I’m sure the Botnia would also be good but it’s just plain ugly and the import process is a turn off as well.
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I have some chads and I agree it is a warm wind and not the concussion driving blast of many Brakes. That said I prefer using my CAT JL.
 
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#72
rydah said:
So you’re an expert on muzzle brake design and fluid dynamics now are you? 😂
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I'd consider myself somewhat knowledgeable, and my operation isn't just myself, and I have some impressive employees.

But, another beauty of printing is you can quickly test designs and see what works, and iterate on those designs. I do this for some big names, and it can be more efficient and cost effective than CFD where supersonic flow analysis doesn't always produce the expected results.

Good question though, it is good to be skeptical.
 
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#73
Tier1nub said:
My understanding is 3D metal printing gives you the most versatility in terms of shapes etc. I could be way off and missing so many aspect excuse my ignorance.
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It definitely does give significant versatility, within the design constraints. Mainly to make shapes that would be more difficult otherwise.
 
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#74
Tyler Kemp said:
I'd consider myself somewhat knowledgeable, and my operation isn't just myself, and I have some impressive employees.

But, another beauty of printing is you can quickly test designs and see what works, and iterate on those designs. I do this for some big names, and it can be more efficient and cost effective than CFD where supersonic flow analysis doesn't always produce the expected results.

Good question though, it is good to be skeptical.
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Printing prototypes and testing them vs cfd testing is not quicker or more cost effective.
 
#75
Tier1nub said:
My understanding is 3D metal printing gives you the most versatility in terms of shapes etc. I could be way off and missing so many aspect excuse my ignorance.
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There are also some big drawbacks. The porosity of 3d printed cans and probably eventually brakes absorbs some really nasty shit into the metal that when cleaned off, is pretty toxic. You also get sparking with some of the 3d cans which can be a deal breaker in certain applications for the obvious. I know at least one company is doing some testing around that now . Additive manufacturing is definitely the future and its not crazy to image a world where it completely replaces traditional machining. But its important to know the pros/cons of each. With modern 5/6 axis machines and EDM, you can do some amazing stuff.
 
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#77
DeathBeforeDismount said:
There are also some big drawbacks. The porosity of 3d printed cans and probably eventually brakes absorbs some really nasty shit into the metal that when cleaned off, is pretty toxic. You also get sparking with some of the 3d cans which can be a deal breaker in certain applications for the obvious. I know at least one company is doing some testing around that now . Additive manufacturing is definitely the future and its not crazy to image a world where it completely replaces traditional machining. But its important to know the pros/cons of each. With modern 5/6 axis machines and EDM, you can do some amazing stuff.
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Agreed! I work in a rather large Aerospace company and we are exploring additive. It is great to prototype a design, and can be spectacular for an emergency repair part, but it is also not all that great in gas thrust environments without cnc cleanup. Would be it work, sure but it MAY be a life limited part.
 
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#78
oldrifleman said:
Agreed! I work in a rather large Aerospace company and we are exploring additive. It is great to prototype a design, and can be spectacular for an emergency repair part, but it is also not all that great in gas thrust environments without cnc cleanup. Would be it work, sure but it MAY be a life limited part.
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There are several complex parts that handle both high heat pressure within SpaceX Merlin, Raptor engines and Draco thrusters that are 3D printed. So there are definitely tricks to getting it to work for a finished part that has longevity.
 
#79
jthor said:
There are several complex parts that handle both high heat pressure within SpaceX Merlin, Raptor engines and Draco thrusters that are 3D printed. So there are definitely tricks to getting it to work for a finished part that has longevity.
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I am aware of them, and yes they can and are being done everyday. Fan blades are commonly done using additive manufacturing methods. The parts in a gas path most often require clean up to provide a smooth air flow.
That said a decent CAD suite can create the design, model it, and run a flow simulation and correct asymmetric flow issues, then kick out a Printer or CNC instruction set. All in less than a day.
 
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#80
oldrifleman said:
I am aware of them, and yes they can and are being done everyday. Fan blades are commonly done using additive manufacturing methods. The parts in a gas path most often require clean up to provide a smooth air flow.
That said a decent CAD suite can create the design, model it, and run a flow simulation and correct asymmetric flow issues, then kick out a Printer or CNC instruction set. All in less than a day.
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Yeah, if I can remember correctly it was the combustion chamber and a few other parts. Previously the parts were machined and welded together, but 3D printing allowed for A part that was not only easier to produce, but allowed for more complexity and actually ended up allowing pressures to increase vs the welded part.
 
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