Something doesn't make sense with your numbers. Did you reverse the average velocities with the first 2 groups by chance? You added a half a grain but lost 62 fps?
.308 Winchester
- Thread starter Two Shoes
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Very good catch. I went over my garmin and it appears the average was 2517. I accidentally wrote 2417. I will edit my previous post.
Very good catch. I went over my garmin and it appears the average was 2517. I accidentally wrote 2417. I will edit my previous post.
Try 39.7 grs and 41 grs and see what you get. You are very close to both nodes on Quickload. You are going to be very compressed and way overpressure at 44 grs. This is assuming you are running an OAL of 2.80.
I'd move to skipping the seconds/pulls and just pony up on the projectiles... and maybe try match primers, not at the same time mind you, pick one, do it then do the other next time around. I load 40gr of Varget with 185 Juggernauts, but my case capacity is very likely considerably less since I'm using M118LR brass. 2500fps isn't bad or great, but as tight as that group is, if it does what you want at distance... eh Might also trying some n140 Just to see.
My rifle doesn't like the Juggernauts as much as the Hornady ELD-VT's and 175gr SMK. Mine basically goes: A-tip > ELD-VT>175 SMK > 169gr SMK>185gr Jugger > ELD-M
I do have actual new bullets. I was just BSing around and decided to just throw together some loads. I also have good primers too lol. The pulled bergers were just too cheap to not buy haha.
I also have 169smk, 155tmk, and some 174 eldvt I can play around with
10 shot group with 185 Juggernaut and H4895. Right at 2515 fps out of an 18.5" barrel
my 308 loves RL15 for the 178s. AR-COMP and VARGET come close but not quite (got plenty of both). With H4895 hitting the shelves again, I've been thinking of giving it a try, since RL15 can't be found and is temp sensitive. Looks like RL15 and H4895 are very close on the burn rate chart...
Any advice?
Any advice?
H4895 is my go to powder for M14 rifles and anything bolt action up to 185 gr, I try and stay with powders that are temp stable whenever possible and H4895 happened to be more accurate than Varget with the 185 Juggernaut in this short barrel, along with being the correct burn rate for the M14 so it was nice to have one powder cover multiple rifles.
I have been playing with N550 and Berger 215 and 220 gr bullets in the same rifle and so far accuracy has been excellent but ES and SD's are a little higher than I like to see. Tried RL 15.5 and Varget and did not see the same level of precision as the N550. Even at a muzzle velocity 150 fps lower than the 185 Jugger load, both of those heavier bullets are far better in the wind and stay supersonic to 1K so I may end up running them both at that distance to compare.
Don't be afraid to try some H4895, it exceeded the performance of Varget in my bolt action with more than 1 projectile.
6.5 what ?. I'd suggest running with 40.8 gr. and adjusting distance off the lands ,run # 3 , 5 shot groups using variable distances from the lands . See what that does for you .
Being that this is the 308 thread, I didn't care much about posting details on the 6.5 lol. But since there is some interest, it's a 6.5 CM. I'll keep that in mind and try next time.
Thank you
On my latest burn rate chart from Accurate:
H4895 #99
RL15 #110
N203B #111
VV N140 #112
Varget #113
On the Other Chart I have:
H4895 #119
RL15 #132
N203B #133
VV N140 #134
Varget #135
None of this says H4895 is not very good in the 308 Win, which it is, but it's a bit faster burning than the rest of the trio.
Hmm i got 2-3 lb of that from back in like 2014.... may have to look up some load data and see what it looks like. My manuals are in the shop and i'm to lazy to go walk up the hill to it and unlock the barn door just to look... but Alliants website shows
Anyone know what the case capacity of IMI .308 brass tends to be? 45gr seems like a lot...
| 308 Win. | Speer 180 gr SP | IMI | 2.8 | 24 | CCI 200 | Reloder 15 | 45 | 2,613 |
I’m running 44.5 RL15 in Hornady match brass with 57.6 gr H2O, which is 2g more than LAPUA brass in same gun. 45 is at pressure 45.5 def blows pockets in my brass. Hornady softer, so could run harder brass harder. Shoots lights out, and is close to USGI loads which use RL15 (& other powders, eg IMR 4064).
2650 fps from 22.5” bbl
Don’t even bother w RL15.5, too bulky, can’t fit enough in a case for typical speeds.
2650 fps from 22.5” bbl
Don’t even bother w RL15.5, too bulky, can’t fit enough in a case for typical speeds.
I've had very good results with 177smk & RL15.5 45.4gr under the 177 is 2750. Have run 500 at that speed no issues.
Edit: that's with a 26" barrel.
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ADI use their max load chart weight of AR2208/Varget in their factory loads of 168SMK in their brass (I pulled and weighed a soft strike), I doubt AR2206 is going to be better with heavier projectiles but I know a lot of F class and TR shooters run overpressure 2206 loads with 155gr in Lapua brass. They are ~3030fps in 30ish inch slow twist barrels with the 155s.
Friend who shoots 185 jugs in an FTR (about 26 inches) uses a stout load of 2208 in lapua, I can't recall exactly but they were doing something silly like easily over 2700fps.
Thanks for commenting, useful information. My M118LR brass averages around 52gr capacity… I’d use something better but I got a lot of it since my buddy bought like 500 rounds of M118LR.
I had wondered about and was trying to source some 15.5, but you saying it’s bulky makes me think maybe I’ll try some N140 instead as a second powder to try besides just using Varget all the time..
I sold my 15.5 at a major loss, I couldn’t find any good use for it.
I do acknowledge the other poster who said he made good use of it but I couldn’t
I do acknowledge the other poster who said he made good use of it but I couldn’t
N-140 in LCLR brass produced MOA groups at 300 yds. {my range limit} with 155's out of my AR
Anyone shooting the 180 game changer? Found a good price on some (500 bulk).
I'll probably load with LC brass, with Fed 210s or CCCI 200s?
I have Lever, CFE223, Varget, SW Precision, 748, StaBall 6.5 on hand in sufficient quantities.
I'll probably load with LC brass, with Fed 210s or CCCI 200s?
I have Lever, CFE223, Varget, SW Precision, 748, StaBall 6.5 on hand in sufficient quantities.
I picked up a bunch of the 180 Gamechangers (IE TGK) as well. I haven't shot any yet. I am planning to start with Varget and RL15. Will report back when I have data.
I shot many 175 Sierra TMK’s and 180 Speers and Accubond LR’s over the years using Varget and 748, but had the best luck with Reloder 15 across the board. It’s worth a try if you don’t have any.
Fyi : I also run 6.5 and have had stellar performance with VV N560 & N540 powders 123 gr. -143 gr. . Put together a hunting load which did .404" @ 278 yd. " All #20 of them " in a steady 18 Mph quartering wind ,with 21 Mph gusts .
It's also difficult to write on a fluttering cardboard paper target while in the wind .
Yeah I know it's a 7.62X51 thread and apparently while organizing photos I've misplaced or deleted M14 and Aero platform 7.62X51 targets . Seems I'll need to shoot new ones ,oh what a bummer
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My 700 ADL does acceptably with factory 165 Interlock, but it’s also 2012 or older. Got a bunch of bullets bought in 2007 and I cannot get a load worth a damn. It also does fine with Federal 165 Gameking, but that’s also very old ammo. I’ve debated whether to buy Gamekings, or buy the 175 Matchking X, as 175 Matchking is lights out in my Bergara.
I tried some standard rem 9 1/2s per your recommendation to move away from 2nds. I did however keep the pulled jugs since they shot so good. I also made sure to sort by base to Ogive and used all the ones that measured out the same.
It appears I got worse results. Also, while appearing well rounded, the primers do have some catering or high areas all around the firing pin strike. Can anybody comment on whether this is an indication of pressure? Being such a low charge, considering what others here run, I don't believe so. Here is what I'm talking about.
And here are the cases from the factory ammo I shot as a control group. These certainly appear to be hot. Primers do look rounded vs flat but brass has shiny spots.
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Sorry, was this meant for me? If so, I'm actually at cbto ≈ 2.266" with the 185 jugs. Not sure where that puts me for OAL but it is certainly longer than 2.80"
That cratering is not from over pressure of any kind. It is from excess space between the firing pin hole and the firing pin itself. It's really a common thing to see. That issue can be gotten rid of by having you bold "bushed", where that space it significantly reduced.
As for the factory cases being flat . . . they are flatter, indicating more pressure than your loads. But there's still some rounding and does not suggest any over pressure issue. Though there appears to be a little bit of some ejector swipe that would suggest to me its on the boarder line of having too much pressure.
Thanks, I figured my loads were on the safe side but wanted to ask. Being that I'm barely starting to load for this 308 and shooting more and more with it, I'm starting to learn figure her out. I may just send the bolt in to LRI so they can bush it.
I may also try loading slightly hotter. It appears I may have a bit more room to go up in charge weight.
Sorry, knowing what CBTO you have doesn't really tell us anything about your seating depth, as different comparators will measure CBTO differently. Your comparator is meant only for you to compare measures you are taking. Their simply not precision measuring tools. Different comparators can give as much as .065" difference. Even though bullet's OAL can vary, it easier to get a good idea of your cartridge configuration when you state a COAL.
What factory ammo were you shooting that gave you 2,701 fps (brand & bullet weight)?
Assuming you're loading your cartridges to the same COAL (or the same CBTO with your comparator) as the factory cartridges, you can certainly load them a little hotter (maybe by 1 gr more of Varget), but your not going to get the velocity you got out of the factory cartridges. You'll need a to load them longer, like a COAL at 2.950" if your freebore allows it, and maybe use a different powder, like IMR-4895 or H-4895, if that's your goal
So I should have probably clarified. The factory ammo I shot was just to get some sort of baseline. However, I was not trying to replicate it. I also like to shoot a group of factory ammo first to establish some sort of zero confirmation. It is called Bullets 1st by American Marksman. It is loaded with a 175 SMK.
My barrel is 22.5" long so I do not expect to near to those velocities with varget and 185 jugs. I understand measuring tools such as a comparator will only serve me to get MY measurements as there will be lots of variance. I will measure OAL next time I am home. My load was considerably longer next to the factory ammo. It did not fit in the plastic MDT mag so I had to use the MDT metal mags.
Try not to change more than one thing at a time. 9 1/2? Are you talking about primers? Remingtons? I don’t believe you’re recalling me talking about primers… probably someone else as about all I ever use is CCi or Federal match
The primers in your pictures… I have also seen that from rifles with generous large holes the firing pin/striker pass through. You may want to try to measure the hole in your bolt. I wouldn’t buy a gauge pin set just for that one time use though… a good dial caliper and a careful eye will get you pretty close (no you can’t stick the back side in a hole that small to measure it lol. But you can look at the inside of the main jaws and line it up to where they look flush with the ID of the hole and get pretty close.
ETA: also some primers are softer than others. And I see someone already commented on another potential cause.
I didn’t see what powder you’re loading. Measure case capacity, and don’t rely on what others get from their rifles. Different chambers in different rifles and different brass can have dramatic effects if things are just right or just wrong sort of like tolerance stacking.
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As I mentioned before, I'd say you have maybe 1 gr more of Varget to work with until pressure signs start to appear, and that can gain you about 50+ fps more from your 40.8 grs you're at. Is it worth it? It looks like that load did pretty well for you and maybe there some seating depth tuning that might give you some improvement???
You mentioned skipping the seconds/pulls and I thought you meant components in general. I re-read your previous post and realized you were talking specifically about the bullets. For primers you suggested I try match primers.
Originally, I used white river energetics magnum primers that are seconds. They have performed pretty well though. I did however, try remington 9 1/2 standard large rifle primers this second time and sorted the pulled bullets to only use consistent measurement bullets on bullet base to ogive.
I am using varget, so I think that's a pretty good powder. I have Tac and blc-2 as well but I am going to avoid ball powders as much as I can.
Thank you for the advice. I will measure h2o capacity next time I an home and see where my brass is at.
