Not without working at it
Rifle Scopes 1/8 minute scopes
- Thread starter Merc69
- Start date
Not without working at it
Use what ya want...but 25 yrs ago, with good eyes, for mere 1000yds to 1400yds yd shooting, I used coarse full 1" per click elevation and 1/2" for windage. And was able to hit targets as small as eggs at 1000 yds, an old military Leupold Mark 4 M3 10X on a 27" 308 Win. One turn of the dial gets to 1400yds, one turn back zeroed at 100 yds...today there are so many options, find one "you" have confidence in, and shoot that one. Still using the old Mark 4 M3 it came off the long barreled 308 to the 50BMG for many yrs, now its on a 6 lb AR 10 with a fluted 16" barrel, titanium, magnesium,
and carbon fiber and in caliber ..308 Win of course.
and carbon fiber and in caliber ..308 Win of course.
I have several thoughts.
F-Class is a high precision game and the level of precision has been steadily rising over the years, riding on a huge wave of equipment refinement. The marksmanship skills have also increased and with the advent of reliable etargets, the level of participation has been steadily growing, at least locally. By equipment I mean: rifle, optics, rest, and ammo. Nobody uses factory ammo in F-class and your handloading skills have to be at a very high level; you simply can't leave points on the loading table. That's all I will say about handloading in this thread. There are many top shooters currently shooting a 300 WSM, or SAUM, and I think even some 300 PRC. I know of many top shooters using a 7/300 PRC. The 300 PRC is designed for the long high BC bullets favored in F-class; when you factor in that the rifle can weight up to 22 pounds, the 300 PRC doesn't seem so bad in a match. It's still very new but I'm sure it will encroach in the F-Open crowd over time. A few years back, the 6.5-284 was the darling of the F-Openers, then it was supplanted by the straight .284 and now the 300WSM is quite popular along with the 7/300 PRC.
I'm an F-TR competitor, so for me it's .308 Win and 200gr bullets.
Let's talk optics. In 2022, the F-Open LR champion used a prototype of the March-X Majesta. This was the only Majesta scope at the 2022 Nationals. IN 2023, the F-Open MR champion (600 yards) used a March-X Majesta with the MTR-W1 reticle. The F-Open LR champion and the runner up (1000 yards) both used a March Majesta with the MTR-WFD reticle. There were about 2 dozen March Majestas at the 2023 Nationals and, mainly on F-Open rifles. The riflescope is heavy at 41 oz, and that makes it a challenge to mount on the F-TR rifles. For some it's a bit of a challenge even on an F-Open rifle, but much easier to make weight with the Majesta in that discipline.
The March Majesta is the pinnacle of the riflescopes in F-Class for several reasons.
1- It has the highest magnification of any riflescope on the planet. The only other one that matches the magnification is its March predecessor, the March-X 8-80X56.
2- It uses Super ED lenses, (March is the only manufacturer to use Super ED lenses currently.) One of the benefits of Super ED glass is its resistance to IQ degradation due to mirage. DEON (the makers of March scopes,) became aware of this quality and even took some steps to enhance it in the Majesta. Most F-class Majesta owners run their riflescopes at 80X nearly all the time, some may dial down into the 60x area in conditions of very bad mirage. (F-class shooters love high magnification.) It doesn't mean the image is perfect in mirage conditions, but the target remains solidly round and the lines are visible and distinct.
3- The Majesta has the widest FOV of virtually any other riflescope on the planet at 25°. The only riflescope of which I am aware, having a wider FOV is the March-FX 5-42X56 HM at 26°.
The Majesta if the best riflescope on the planet for F-class. F-class shooters do not use FFP scopes or MIL and the Majesta is an SFP design. It does come ion MOA or MIL, but I've only ever seen MOA Majestas on F-class rifles.
I am aware that some people hope to setup a rifle to shoot F-Class and other disciplines. The problem is that F-Class needs are not served well by riflescopes that are better suited for other disciplines such as PRS and ELR. In PRS, the magnification is usually under 30X and that's the bare minimum for F-class. The FFP reticles get two big and busy for the high precision that F-class requires, which is why an SFP reticle is much better suited for F-class, when the reticle gets smaller in relation to the target as the magnification increases for increased precision.
All that to say that the March Majesta while being the very best F-class riflescope in existence, it is not well suited for other disciplines such as PRS, and ELR and other such that require ranging and a consistent relationship between reticle and target. In F-class, we hold on target and the target ring sizes are well known and consistent, rarely touching the windage dial after sighters. In PRS, you hold on the reticle or constantly dial (or a combination of both).
The new kids on the block are the Athlon Ares ETR as well as the Heras, both SFP 15-60x56, 1/8moa. These have amazing IQ up there with much more expensive scopes and great build quality, yes even the less expensive Heras version!
Friends that own both have compared and they report the same IQ for both but the ETR has daylight bright illume. The moa reticle has 1/2moa hashes, is on the fine side with small center dot, and moa is correct on 40x.
One of these friends is a former multi national champion in the sport of Field Target. The other is a former national champion in air rifle benchrest. They both have a group of friends that own these which like their ETR and Heras target scopes.
My ETR, literally, no exaggeration, has IQ equal to my S&B PM2 5-25, and that's really saying something!
Also it stays pretty bright(doesn't dim out much) on higher magnification.
Friends that own both have compared and they report the same IQ for both but the ETR has daylight bright illume. The moa reticle has 1/2moa hashes, is on the fine side with small center dot, and moa is correct on 40x.
One of these friends is a former multi national champion in the sport of Field Target. The other is a former national champion in air rifle benchrest. They both have a group of friends that own these which like their ETR and Heras target scopes.
My ETR, literally, no exaggeration, has IQ equal to my S&B PM2 5-25, and that's really saying something!
Also it stays pretty bright(doesn't dim out much) on higher magnification.
I'm more impressed that the wind at Camp Perry was dead or constant long enough to shoot 20 rounds.
I always remind people that any decent optic looks great when the conditions are good. It's when the conditions deteriorate that great optics continue to perform at high magnification while lesser optics, need to be dialed down.
You are telling us about the impressions from two of your friends who use optics for Field Target (airgun) and air rifle benchrest. Unless they shoot in a sauna or in the fog, these disciplines do not experience the mirage conditions that one encounters frequently in F-class LR or ELR competitions. I have never used the Chinese-made Athlon Ares or Heras so I can't judge their performance in those conditions, but I can tell you that when I shot the entire MR and LR US Nationals in Phoenyx last year, I was at 80X the entire week, while other with lesser optics were dropping down in to the 30s or less in the afternoons. I have been shooting my Majesta for 7 months now in south Texas, and it has always been set at 80X. Prior to that, I used my March-X 10-60X56 HM at 50X all the time for several years.
Good point. You know I haven't compared the ETR yet at 1150Y but I'll do that today against my March Genesis 4-40, and my S&B 5-25. Though I'm stuck at comparing all three at 25x and the two at 40x since I don't own any other super high magnification scopes.
I must be honest and state that almost every March scope I've own/owned, around $16,500 worth, "except for my current Genesis", didn't impress in the glass compartment. 5-42 HM pretty bad at 42x but nice up to about 28x "in the middle" of the FOV, 5-40 slightly better than the 42x when both on 40x, 3-24 not great anywhere, 1-10 not great, actually disappointingly so at 1150Y last week when shooting my AR. However my Genesis has very nice IQ all the way up.
The older 8-80 I was the least impressed with at 80x but I only looked through one once on 80x and that was at a FT match on the sight in range.
The two 10-60 HM's I looked through were pretty nice but I never got around to buying one.
As you can see I've really tried to love March but can't say I'm all that enthused at this juncture. Sorry just telling my truth on the subject.
We would hope the Majesta would excel above all others, right?! Maybe someday I'll be able to see.
If you look on the March website, you will have noticed the comparison chart where they rank the IQ of all their riflescopes. The 2 Genesis models, 4-40X52 and 6-60X56, along with the March-X 10-60X56 HM took the top spots.
They have since been supplanted by the March-X 8-80X56 HM WA Majesta but it has not been added to the comparison charts as of yet.
The older MARCH-x 8-80x56 is a 13-year-old design. It was actually one of the first riflescope to use ED glass, something that was pioneered by DEON, the makers of March scopes. I have the 5-50X56 model, which is essentially the same design as the old 8-80X56 but using 5X as the base magnification instead of 8X. I used it for 7-8 years in F-Class comps, always at 40X.
When I acquired my March-X 10-60X56 HM, I found that I could stay at 50X regardless of conditions. The IQ is superb in this riflescope, and when the mirage is roaming, the target's aiming black stays round and the rings are still distinct and usable at 50X.
The Majesta ushers in a new era in high magnification optics with its huge FOV @ 25°, high magnification @ 80X and the use of Super ED lens plus enhancement for shimmer (mirage) protection. Since last summer, I have been using the Majesta in competition, and a lot of people have asked to look through it. They all stand up with what I call "the Majesta epiphany face." Then they walk slowly away shaking their head. The one complaint I have heard about the Majesta is that it is heavy at 41oz. That's over a half pound more than the March-X 10-60X56 HM. It is heavier, but it has more capabilities and that means weight, and cost.
March explains that here:
They have since been supplanted by the March-X 8-80X56 HM WA Majesta but it has not been added to the comparison charts as of yet.
The older MARCH-x 8-80x56 is a 13-year-old design. It was actually one of the first riflescope to use ED glass, something that was pioneered by DEON, the makers of March scopes. I have the 5-50X56 model, which is essentially the same design as the old 8-80X56 but using 5X as the base magnification instead of 8X. I used it for 7-8 years in F-Class comps, always at 40X.
When I acquired my March-X 10-60X56 HM, I found that I could stay at 50X regardless of conditions. The IQ is superb in this riflescope, and when the mirage is roaming, the target's aiming black stays round and the rings are still distinct and usable at 50X.
The Majesta ushers in a new era in high magnification optics with its huge FOV @ 25°, high magnification @ 80X and the use of Super ED lens plus enhancement for shimmer (mirage) protection. Since last summer, I have been using the Majesta in competition, and a lot of people have asked to look through it. They all stand up with what I call "the Majesta epiphany face." Then they walk slowly away shaking their head. The one complaint I have heard about the Majesta is that it is heavy at 41oz. That's over a half pound more than the March-X 10-60X56 HM. It is heavier, but it has more capabilities and that means weight, and cost.
March explains that here:
If you look on the March website, you will have noticed the comparison chart where they rank the IQ of all their riflescopes. The 2 Genesis models, 4-40X52 and 6-60X56, along with the March-X 10-60X56 HM took the top spots.
They have since been supplanted by the March-X 8-80X56 HM WA Majesta but it has not been added to the comparison charts as of yet.
The older MARCH-x 8-80x56 is a 13-year-old design. It was actually one of the first riflescope to use ED glass, something that was pioneered by DEON, the makers of March scopes. I have the 5-50X56 model, which is essentially the same design as the old 8-80X56 but using 5X as the base magnification instead of 8X. I used it for 7-8 years in F-Class comps, always at 40X.
When I acquired my March-X 10-60X56 HM, I found that I could stay at 50X regardless of conditions. The IQ is superb in this riflescope, and when the mirage is roaming, the target's aiming black stays round and the rings are still distinct and usable at 50X.
The Majesta ushers in a new era in high magnification optics with its huge FOV @ 25°, high magnification @ 80X and the use of Super ED lens plus enhancement for shimmer (mirage) protection. Since last summer, I have been using the Majesta in competition, and a lot of people have asked to look through it. They all stand up with what I call "the Majesta epiphany face." Then they walk slowly away shaking their head. The one complaint I have heard about the Majesta is that it is heavy at 41oz. That's over a half pound more than the March-X 10-60X56 HM. It is heavier, but it has more capabilities and that means weight, and cost.
March explains that here:
I hadn't been on Marches site in a while so thanks for those links.
Well I hope to take a peek through the Majesta at some point!
Not much mirage today.
I just unofficially got done comparing the IQ on those three scopes I mentioned from 600Y on out to 3 miles. Of course the Genesis easily came out on top on 25x and 40x so that's cool because these are so expensive. I'm still trying to see the difference between the S&B and the ETR but they are so close I can't see much, its hard to tell???!!! The S&B and the ETR are only slightly behind the Genesis because but there is a difference. The IQ in the Genesis cleans up finer in detail.
It was easy to make out the ears of a brown horse 3 miles away with the Genesis. I could make out the ears with the other scopes but I had to concentrate more to do so.
There was a crow in a tree about 1200 yards away and I could see the beak against the medium green of the pine trees behind it at 40x. The sun was shining bright on it which helped. This was with the ETR and the crow flew off before I could get to the other scopes.
All I'm saying is the ETR can be had for $1000, the Heras for a bit more than half that. I payed $3800 for the S&B about 11 years ago, and $4700 for the Genesis two years ago.
I really like your report. The Genesis models are incredible optics, and since the adjustment is external, they always provide the very best IQ regardless of setting and they have a lot of elevation and windage. As I explained, the optical equivalent in SFP for the Genesis is the March-X 10-60X56 HM. The Majesta is a new level of IQ and shimmer (mirage) protection. The difference becomes apparent in mirage conditions. I would say that mirage is the big differentiator in optics for F-class as we love our magnification.
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@Denys those charts from March that you linked are pretty amazing in that a company actually has the balls to rank their own scopes against each other!
Hats off to March, just for that.
Too bad March didn’t make a 8-40 or 8-50 FFP scope along the lines of the Majesta. Maybe it’s coming. Might be good for longer-range pdogging.
Hats off to March, just for that.
Too bad March didn’t make a 8-40 or 8-50 FFP scope along the lines of the Majesta. Maybe it’s coming. Might be good for longer-range pdogging.
What you are describing is exactly why the next finer graduation is useful.I will be the first to admit to my questionable sanity when it comes to shooting. I have used 1/4 minute scopes at mid range matches and have found that I can have a group building the edge of the x ring at 9:00 and one click on the 1/4 minute scope would move me not far enough but 2 clicks and I have movement more that I wanted. Three clicks on an 1/8 minute scope would have put me where I wanted. I am splitting hairs but with the option to make the finer movements I prefer it. As for clicking up or down for range; I come from the Smallbore World with a rear sight that was 15th minute clicks...1/8 minute will be a snap. Please remember I am returning to competitive shooting after an almost 20 year layoff and building on my previous experiences.
As I stated at the start my sanity when it comes to competitive shooting is always in question
I have shot on the smelly, coat wearing, end of the line, with Denys over in the belly benchrest crowd, and value his input and experience and that of everyone else there. A lot of their off hand comments have improved my fundamentals and scores.
Before finding this thread I bought a Golden Eagle for the RPR I have been shooting prone to replace an old Leupold 8.5-25. Why; reticle with a target dot, a bit more than the 25 power, and finally, a lot of 590something scores on the 300 yard line where I just couldn't drag the group into the 10 ring. I still find it hard to not be pulled into the center when sling shooting. I did finally learn to not follow the spotters. I don't have the experience or fundamentals of our range any/any champion, but I did find going from 1/2 to 1/4 on the service rifle helped chasing X's. So I figured I'd give the Golden Eagle scope a try. It's not like that scope has held back F-T/R winners.
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Just a point of clarification here: the "belly benchrest" moniker applies to the F-Open crowd. Those are the people who use front rest weighing over 50 pounds, and are USB-powered, Bluetooth enabled, GPS located, Laser leveled, with the Cappuccino attachment. We lowly F-TR shooters have fancy bipods.; my Joypod-X weighs right at a pound.
The GE is a fine scope for Prone, when you will be in the 20s and 30s in magnification. Mirage won't hurt you as much as it would in the higher mags.
I had two Weaver T-36 scopes and they did a good job in my early days of F-Class, but they are enormously affected by mirage and the problem is you can't dial down, so you shoot the amoeba on crack. The T-36 has great tracking especially for its price point.
I too am quite surprised (and pleased) that March ostensibly rates their scopes in such a matter-of-fact manner. These charts are indeed helpful. F7
I have a question about the March rating system. It may be obvious and I am missing it, but by leaving a slot blank is March saying that scope is at the bottom of the ranking in a given category? Thanks. F7
