1 shot vs 3 shot OCW (finished load)

[C_R_Slacker]

I think skookum is saying that you can't trust what a scattered group is telling you until after you have done seating depth tests because seating depth can affect group size so much.

But I also see what you're saying about not being able to infer much from a single shot ocw, because the arbitrary seating depth used could scatter the poi enough to skew the data.

I think there is a reason Newberry or whatever his name is settled on his method for ocw. I'm sure he experimented with several variations of the same method, but decided the published method is best.

If something has been working for you, then rock on. Can't argue with results. But i think a lot of the people having success with shortcut variations of ocw or ladder are having success because of their previous experiences. There is something they understand about a particular cartridge or chamber. Or there is something they already know about a particular bullet or powder. If you're on your fifth 6.5 creed barrel and you've been shooting 140 eldm with h4350 and lapua brass the whole time, you can probably pick a good load with zero development.

For anyone new to reloading or to these specific methods, or even just a new cartridge or bullet, i wouldn't try to take any shortcuts.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I think skookum is saying that you can't trust what a scattered group is telling you until after you have done seating depth tests because seating depth can affect group size so much.

Exactly. With seating depth, virtually ANY powder charge can be made to look like either a scatter group or a good group. If the result can be so drastically altered, then in my opinion, the concept is meaningless.

But I also see what you're saying about not being able to infer much from a single shot ocw, because the arbitrary seating depth used could scatter the poi enough to skew the data.

The single shot test was just an experiment. I would not hold it out there as something to be trusted. The single shot OCW is not gonna be the new "Skookum" OCW.

Thank you for understanding what I was getting at. Even on Dan Newberry's site, he talks about the scatter node in the context of a single fixed OAL. Then at the end, he mentions that you can do "final tuning" to make the load even more accurate.

He seems to indicate that seating depth only has a very small effect on over all group size. Well, maybe in a 30" long 1.25", straight 6mm tube it has a small effect.....but for a guy shooting a Sendero taper 300 Winmag the reality is somewhat different.

 

[Precision Underground]

I get what both of you guys are saying and its apples and oranges going into the same fruit salad. They are complimentary.

I'm still not sure what it is he is disagreeing with from what I explained. It's nothing that I made up it's exactly what OCW describes as to the scatter node.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I'm still not sure what it is he is disagreeing with from what I explained. It's nothing that I made up it's exactly what OCW describes as to the scatter node.

Well, I guess we aren't going to understand each other. That's OK. Maybe we just need to drop it at this point. If what you see is working for you, then that is great. Maybe someday I'll see it too.

I went back to the source, to Dan's site, and read and re-read the parts that mention it over and over. I see holes in the way he drew his conclusions, or at least the way he presented them. But that has nothing to do with you.

Good shooting brother.

 

[Precision Underground]

Well, I guess we aren't going to understand each other. That's OK. Maybe we just need to drop it at this point. If what you see is working for you, then that is great. Maybe someday I'll see it too.

I went back to the source, to Dan's site, and read and re-read the parts that mention it over and over. I see holes in the way he drew his conclusions, or at least the way he presented them. But that has nothing to do with you.

Good shooting brother.

Exactly. With seating depth, virtually ANY powder charge can be made to look like either a scatter group or a good group. If the result can be so drastically altered, then in my opinion, the concept is meaningless.


The single shot test was just an experiment. I would not hold it out there as something to be trusted. The single shot OCW is not gonna be the new "Skookum" OCW.

Thank you for understanding what I was getting at. Even on Dan Newberry's site, he talks about the scatter node in the context of a single fixed OAL. Then at the end, he mentions that you can do "final tuning" to make the load even more accurate.

He seems to indicate that seating depth only has a very small effect on over all group size. Well, maybe in a 30" long 1.25", straight 6mm tube it has a small effect.....but for a guy shooting a Sendero taper 300 Winmag the reality is somewhat different.

I think what you are not getting is that there is not just one single magic charge and seating depth that is “the” load. For most quality rifles there are a few different depths and charges that will shoot very well. The depth and the charge depend on each other. The scatter will be in different places for different depths and charges. You are building your load off of a starting depth and that depth will help determine the charge. Make sense? Yes you can tweak it afterwards but that’s just a tweak to get the last bit of accuracy out of it.

For the absolute hell of it. Go load 5 rounds, 42 grains at 2.810(I think that was the scattered group depth). That will be about 1.5% above the scatter on your seating depth test. Do 5 @ 42.2 and 5 of the charge you settled on too. See how they group. It could just be that the bullet/rifle do not work together at that depth but the target looks really odd to me. I have never seen that drastic of a scatter just from .005 depth change with decent groups on either side of it. Load those and shoot them and tell us what happened. I would not put money on them shooting great because the scatter is just one indicator but I am curious as to what they do.

 

[BigTex]

Gonna get this load out to 1k+ in the AM if the weather holds.

 

[BigTex]

Got it out there today. I stopped at 100yds at daylight to confirm zero. Then went and fired 2 from 600yds, they were dead nuts. Then went to 1237yds which is the distance the Kestrel told me would be ideal for MV calibration. Shot this group about 1/4 minute low. The kestrel said to use 2794fps instead of 2800. Should be ready to rock now.

ETA: just noticed the date is wrong on the pic

 

[fxdrider]

I want this Proof barrel to last a while.

If you don't mind me asking, which type of Proof barrel? Carbon Fiber, or all-steel? Just curious. From the photo it looks like carbon fiber.

 

[BigTex]

If you don't mind me asking, which type of Proof barrel? Carbon Fiber, or all-steel? Just curious. From the photo it looks like carbon fiber.

It's a carbon fiber 1.13" shank sendero profile