• Quick Shot Challenge: What’s the dumbest shooting myth you’ve heard?

    Drop it in the replies for the chance to win a free shirt!

    Join the contest

168 AMax or 178 AMax?

D

Deltagunner00

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 16, 2011
330
144
42
Central Indiana
#1
I have only shot the 168's so far out of my 26" Criterion Barrel. I only got to shoot around 50 rounds of the 168 with it so that was basically just for the break in.

I am getting ready to place an order on the 178's as thats what everyone seems to prefer. Would you choose them over the 168? Also, whos got the best deal on them right now? Thanks.
 
#2
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

Go big or go home!

Actually try both and shoot what the gun prefers. Every rifle is different and it may like 168's more.

Go with what your first urge is! If you want to shoot 178's then try them. Either way with the Amax you will not go wrong.

155's, 168's, or 178's. If you going past 600yds then start heavy.

Terry
 
#3
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

I've never shot the 168's, only the 178's and they've been very consistent for me.

My good friend always shot the 168's but this time around he went with the 178's after trying some of mine and getting a lot more consistent hits past 800yds.

We were both shooting 20" 308's.
 
#4
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

I'd say 178s both are great bullets but the 178 will take you out a lot further then the 168. Why do thru all the touble of working up a load for 168s only to be limited. There is nothing a 168gn can do that a 178 can't. there is however stuff a 178 can do that a 168 can't.
 
#6
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

I shoot both, but would agree with others on the 178 over the 168. I am no expert, but I see the 168 as a 600 yard bullet. Will it shoot farther? Of course, I have shot them at 1000 but why do that, when I can shoot a better bullet for that?
 
#7
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

umm what twist is this barrel? I wouldn't waste my time with the 168's. No point. 178's have a much higher BC, fight wind better, what's not to like as long as you have the twist to spin um.
 
#9
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

Not to be negative but my sps t hates the 178 amax. On the other hand it eats up the 168. Reasoning I think is 1:12 twist. The 178 is designed for 1:10. Now my .300 win mag 700 pss loves em (1:10 twist). Was hitting 3100 fps and sub moa out to 700. Stopped shooting em though bc I didn't want to burn out my barrel. But this post could be useless bc You probably have a 1:10 if ur tube is 26". Anyways, happy hunting.
 
#17
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stapletonb08.1740</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MidwayUSA has great prices that usually cant be beat. I always buy everything from them cause of super fast shipping and great customer service. </div></div>

All their fees discourage me.
 
#18
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

honestly if you want them I just got some at cabelas. they arn't the cheapest in town but they have a $5 shipping code right now which definitely kinda evens it out. They are $30.99 right now on sale

The code ends today though!
 
#19
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadnbrkn84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">umm what twist is this barrel? I wouldn't waste my time with the 168's. No point. 178's have a much higher BC, fight wind better, what's not to like as long as you have the twist to spin um. </div></div>

Actually in the real world the Hornady 168g AMAX I chrono'd @ 2,730fps, is very close to the 178g AMAX I chrono'd at 2,610fps. Both have about the same wind drift with the 178g needing almost 1 more mil of elevation by 1,000yards.

The 178g AMAX is almost a direct replacement for the Sierra 175g MatchKing bullets though the AMAX seems to drop more at distance I suppose due to that 3g additional weight. The 178g AMAX is a bit less expensive than the 175g SMK and since Hornady started labeling boxes with AMP the AMAX bullets seem to be more consistent in weight if not ogive height. But it's not enough IMO to give the 178g AMAX an edge over the 175g SMK bullets so I'm loading 168g AMAXs and 175g SMKs and both work very well for me in .308Win.

 
#20
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

2610fps is pretty slow with the 178. Depending on barrel you should be able to add about 100fps to that.

The 168 amax is a good long range bullet if pushed fast enough. It gets lumped in with the168 smk but it has a better Bc and does better going trans sonic.

Check out the 178 bthp if you want a better Bc in that weight range. It has a .530 Bc.
 
#21
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2610fps is pretty slow with the 178. Depending on barrel you should be able to add about 100fps to that.

The 168 amax is a good long range bullet if pushed fast enough. It gets lumped in with the168 smk but it has a better Bc and does better going trans sonic.

Check out the 178 bthp if you want a better Bc in that weight range. It has a .530 Bc. </div></div>


The common factory 175g SMK match ammo (FGGM & BHM) I've chrono'd runs about 2,600fps give or take 20fps out of the two production chambered 24" Rem 700 barrels I've tested with. The 178g AMAX bullets don't go any faster out of the barrel than the SMKs. Sure you can load them up a bit faster but not much without some initial signs of pressure even in these loose factory chambers.

Yes I agree, the 168g AMAX is a better 168g bullet than the 168g SMK in the real world and on paper in my experience. This is why it is my standard cheap do it all bullet.

The Hornady 178g Match bullets are very slippery but I have not found them to be as good at hitting what they are pointed at as the 175g SMK. The shape of the Hornady Match bullets may not be a good match for my 40 year old 700 BDL heavy barrel varmint or new 5R Milspec. I have tried the 178g Hornady Match assembled with very long hand fed COAL and standard 2.800" to no real good for some reason. But it is a darned slippery bugger of a bullet and has the legs to go 1,200yards supersonic!
 
#22
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

You can easily get the 178s faster than 2620fps. Was getting 2710 and no pressure out of my 20" barrel. Varget will do it. Getting 2750fps out of a 26" barrel. Saying you will get pressure much above the basic 175 factory load speeds is just wrong.

Some barrels like some bullets better than others. Nothing can be done about that but with the Bc being offered they are worth a try. Varget pushing them loaded. 020" off the lands works great for me.
 
#23
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can easily get the 178s faster than 2620fps. Was getting 2710 and no pressure out of my 20" barrel. Varget will do it. Getting 2750fps out of a 26" barrel. Saying you will get pressure much above the basic 175 factory load speeds is just wrong.

Some barrels like some bullets better than others. Nothing can be done about that but with the Bc being offered they are worth a try. Varget pushing them loaded. 020" off the lands works great for me. </div></div>

Sure you can make a 178g bullet go faster with hotter loads up to a point but not enough to significantly out perform a 168g AMAX with equal max. pressures. I can load up a 168g AMAX to move pretty fast but 2,730 to 2,760fps is more easily achieved safely.

Some things are possible but 2,710fps with a 178g AMAX using Varget out of a 20" barrel is pretty unlikely without being significantly over pressure. I'm sure you think it was 2,710fps but it seems very unlikely to me.

 
#24
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

Guess the Oehler 35 and actually shooting it at distance and having the data run true to the ballistic data must be wrong. Guess you wont believe it no matter what I say so we will just have to agree to disagree.
 
#25
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

The chrono you were using Rob sets the standard and I trust you when you say it matched your data. Doesn't mean YAOG has a chrono that is as accurate. Also, sounds like he tends to load pretty conservatively. To each their own.
 
#26
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

I agree to each his own. I was just trying to explain my experiences with the bullets mentioned. There is a bunch of other data on loads used with all the bullets mentioned in the .308 load post in the reloading depot.
 
#28
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guess the Oehler 35 and actually shooting it at distance and having the data run true to the ballistic data must be wrong. Guess you wont believe it no matter what I say so we will just have to agree to disagree. </div></div>

O.K. so you have an Oehler 35 I have a PVM21. There is no magic involved in designing chronographs these days as they are pretty simple clock systems.

Would you agree that if you could send a 178g bullet at 2,700+fps you can send a 168g bullet a whole lot faster at the same chamber pressure? If you can agree to this then it is really all a matter of ballistics.

As for getting 2,700+fps with a 178g pill out of your 20" barrel I didn't say it can't be done I said I doubt it. Next time you are in L.A. look me up and show me I'll even bring the PVM21 out to ASR for you to shoot over.
 
#29
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The chrono you were using Rob sets the standard and I trust you when you say it matched your data. Doesn't mean YAOG has a chrono that is as accurate. Also, sounds like he tends to load pretty conservatively. To each their own. </div></div>

IMO the Oehler 35 is still a good chrono. I have a PVM21 which has a very fast reliable sensor system and a much more modern (read this as faster, more stable over time and temp) time base.

I am admittedly a conservative loader mostly because pushing for the high velocity (without a good reason) generally does not improve the number of Xs you get. Of course this is a technical sport and there are many ways to skin a cat out there.
 
#30
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pmuniz10920</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use whichever on shoots more accurately and consistently... </div></div>


^^^ This
 
#31
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to be negative but my sps t hates the 178 amax. On the other hand it eats up the 168. Reasoning I think is 1:12 twist. The 178 is designed for 1:10. Now my .300 win mag 700 pss loves em (1:10 twist). Was hitting 3100 fps and sub moa out to 700. Stopped shooting em though bc I didn't want to burn out my barrel. But this post could be useless bc You probably have a 1:10 if ur tube is 26". Anyways, happy hunting. </div></div>

I shoot the 178s out of the same gun, factory barrel and it shoots well. An overall average group size is about .8MOA
 
#32
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

Just for consideration since you (the OP) didn't ask about anything other than the 168's or 178's. Hornady's 180's SST. They have very good G1 BC, but they aren't the cheapest, but not the most expensive either. But well worth a try I tell you what.
 
#33
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to be negative but my sps t hates the 178 amax. On the other hand it eats up the 168. Reasoning I think is 1:12 twist. The 178 is designed for 1:10. Now my .300 win mag 700 pss loves em (1:10 twist). Was hitting 3100 fps and sub moa out to 700. Stopped shooting em though bc I didn't want to burn out my barrel. But this post could be useless bc You probably have a 1:10 if ur tube is 26". Anyways, happy hunting. </div></div>

I shoot the 178s out of the same gun, factory barrel and it shoots well. An overall average group size is about .8MOA </div></div>

Which 178s? My nearly 40 year old 700BDL heavy barrel varmint used to shoot under 1/2 MOA with 168g SMKs and 168g AMAXs as does my newer 5R. I can't get the 178g AMAX or 178g Hornady Match to shoot as well. But the funny thing is that 175g SMKs are just as good as the 168g AMAXs and 168g SMKs for some reason. I think it is the different bullet shape, bearing area and ogive height.
 
#34
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

Actually my team mate has that same chrono you have and his said the same thing. It wasn't just the chrono but being shot at distance that proves it as well. Believe what you want. I got nothing to prove to you.

Also, go look at the .308 load post in the Reloading Depot. Plenty of people doing it.
 
#35
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

178gr a-maxes. He <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> asking specifically about a-maxes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to be negative but my sps t hates the 178 amax. On the other hand it eats up the 168. Reasoning I think is 1:12 twist. The 178 is designed for 1:10. Now my .300 win mag 700 pss loves em (1:10 twist). Was hitting 3100 fps and sub moa out to 700. Stopped shooting em though bc I didn't want to burn out my barrel. But this post could be useless bc You probably have a 1:10 if ur tube is 26". Anyways, happy hunting. </div></div>

I shoot the 178s out of the same gun, factory barrel and it shoots well. An overall average group size is about .8MOA </div></div>

Which 178s? My nearly 40 year old 700BDL heavy barrel varmint used to shoot under 1/2 MOA with 168g SMKs and 168g AMAXs as does my newer 5R. I can't get the 178g AMAX or 178g Hornady Match to shoot as well. But the funny thing is that 175g SMKs are just as good as the 168g AMAXs and 168g SMKs for some reason. I think it is the different bullet shape, bearing area and ogive height.
</div></div>
 
#37
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

The 178's didnt turn out too bad. 100 yards

IMG-20120310-01054.jpg
 
#38
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guess the Oehler 35 and actually shooting it at distance and having the data run true to the ballistic data must be wrong. Guess you wont believe it no matter what I say so we will just have to agree to disagree. </div></div>

O.K. so you have an Oehler 35 I have a PVM21. There is no magic involved in designing chronographs these days as they are pretty simple clock systems.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Would you agree that if you could send a 178g bullet at 2,700+fps you can send a 168g bullet a whole lot faster at the same chamber pressure? If you can agree to this then it is really all a matter of ballistics. </span>

As for getting 2,700+fps with a 178g pill out of your 20" barrel I didn't say it can't be done I said I doubt it. Next time you are in L.A. look me up and show me I'll even bring the PVM21 out to ASR for you to shoot over.

</div></div>

No, I don't agree. On an exceptionally crude, low level basis, you are correct. If there was a "perfect" powder for every bullet, case, primer, chamber and barrel combination - I'd agree...but there isn't.

While we are blessed with many good choices for powder, we are still quute limited. Max pressure does not equal velocity, but rather, the integral of pressure times change of volume (PdV), which is the mathematical expression fir the work done by a piston/cylinder arrangement.

Case in point:

In my Savage 10FP, 45.5gr Varget is MAX SAFE for a 175smk. That load goes between 2655 and 2675 depending on weather/temperature. Meanwhile, 46gr is MAX SAFE for the 178bthp, which is good for 2745fps @ 45°F ambient.

Why?

The dynamics of bullet/bore friction, pressure rise time, volume of the cylinder at Pmax etc etc etc conspire to do do MIRE WORK on the 178hpbt than with the 175smk. Perhaps a faster powder would perform better with the 175? Maybe, but Varget has an excellent reputation for that bullet, so...

Bottom line is that theoretically, the lighter bullet can always go faster. In the real world, however, with less than ideal powders for any given application, lighter bullets will NOT always go faster.
 
#39
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

Another thought:

The 178hpbt obsoletes the 178amax. The 178hpbt is fantastic, and very forgiving.

With the 175smk, a ladder test at 300 yards produces about 8" of vertical for me. The 178hpbt produced a sub-moa ladder group at 300 yards. 2" tall, 1" wide. IMPRESSIVE. The span of the ladders was 5gr for both bullets.

The 178hpbt is faster than the 175smk or 178amax, higher BC, cheaper, and more forgiving.

Great bullet.
 
#40
Re: 168 AMax or 178 AMax?

Ill tell ya, my M1A is in love with the 178 AMAX. have shot the 155 to great results, didn't fair well with any 168 gr. factory offerings of any bullet type. Handloading the 178 to a fairly conservative 2550 fps has been a laser beam to 500 yards. Farthest we've been able to shoot to date, but it was good for 10 of 12 hits on a reduced silhouette (66%). Its capable of sub moa groups at 200 yards, but doesn't fair well at 50 or 100. Looks terrible at short distances, but once the bullet settles in, it tracks extremely well. Using Strelok BC on the iPod has made first round hits next to effortless. Next to....
wink.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

B
sr25/ar10/m5 load help 178 eldm over 4064 what velocities should i expect 20" barrel
Replies
5
Views
374
BigBlastin300win
B
mark5pt56
SOLD Nice 700P/PSS, LEUPOLD 4.5-14X50/M1
Replies
2
Views
451
mark5pt56
mark5pt56
V
Old Pulled .30 Cal. Military Tip Experience in .308 Win???
Replies
6
Views
1K
Virago
V
GasGun786
SOLD WTT AT-X with S&B
Replies
5
Views
839
Brandon Caudle
B
B
New 22 creedmoor Alpha brass, should I fire form before load development?
Replies
2
Views
306
308Gunner
308Gunner
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts