• Quick Shot Challenge: What’s the dumbest shooting myth you’ve heard?

    Drop it in the replies for the chance to win a free shirt!

    Join the contest

2 + grains over book max?

thefitter

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 10, 2010
934
3
62
Sorry, this is a bit of a re post but the original is not getting any responses. I think that's because of how I worded the title. (Either that or I'm just asking a stupid question.)

I really need to figure this out tonight because I'm loading for tomorrow so bear with my rookieness.

I just realized that I was loading regular Scenars from the silver jacket scenars load data.

This put me 2 grains over listed max for the regulars. I saw no pressure signs today, although I will admit I'm not really sure about judging this other than the pictures in the reloading manuals.

I had planned to go higher for tomorrow until I noticed my mistake.

MAX book is:

155 Scenar - N140, 43.4 /2648

155 Scenar SJ - N140, 45.5 /2805

I was shooting the regular scenars at 45.4 - 45.7

Like I said the primers look OK and the bolt felt like it always does.

If I scoot up 1/10 grain at a time and watch for pressure I should be OK, right?

I have found one accuracy node at a lower charge weight but it puts it only in the 2600fps range and I wanted something faster. I really don't want my 155's going slower than my 168's. Thanks


 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

your brass will tell you when pressure is reached, some chambers that is below book max and most its way over, so work up slowly, look for ejector swipes, totally flat primers, hard bolt lift, its also the wrong time of the year, loads that show no pressure now might be way over in the summer.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

I load 105 Amaxs 1.5 grains over Hornadys max with H4350 and get 200 fps over their listed velocity. 427 gave you all the info you need above.......Edit to add in 243 Win.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">your brass will tell you when pressure is reached, some chambers that is below book max and most its way over, so work up slowly, look for ejector swipes, totally flat primers, hard bolt lift, its also the wrong time of the year, loads that show no pressure now might be way over in the summer. </div></div>

Thanks. You know I have yet to experience ejector swipes or flat primers. I'm having a hard time distinguishing a cratered primer from not, and every once in awhile I'll have a hard bolt lift with one round but then the next rounds of that charge is fine. This whole over pressure thing is a little gray to me. But I'll keep checking.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: badshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some of the bolt lift could be from your brass not being sized to fit the gun. It will be hard to close the bolt too. </div></div>

What he said ^^^

My first attempt at reloads were all hard to lift bolts starting with the min charge! When I sized the cases to the correct length(!), the same charges worked great. The correct length being a couple of thousandths shorter at the shoulder datum than fired cases from the same gun.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

cratered primers come from big sloppy production action\bolt firing pin hole, since going to Surgeon Actions this has disappeared from my fired brass
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: badshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some of the bolt lift could be from your brass not being sized to fit the gun. It will be hard to close the bolt too. </div></div>

That's one of the reasons I wasn't concerned, because I only bump the shoulder when things get tight.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you using the sierra manual?

Their data is beyond conservative. </div></div>

No this came out of the Lapua load data online.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

You can't read primers for pressure signs. Think about it .30-30 uses the same primer as 30-378. Even a light load from the Weatherby would be a dramatic increase in pressure from the .30-30 and yet a 30-30 overcharge will flatten the primer while a higher pressure in the other round won't? Just because it's under the SAAMI spec??
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerkface11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't read primers for pressure signs. Think about it .30-30 uses the same primer as 30-378. Even a light load from the Weatherby would be a dramatic increase in pressure from the .30-30 and yet a 30-30 overcharge will flatten the primer while a higher pressure in the other round won't? Just because it's under the SAAMI spec?? </div></div>
You are comparing apples to oranges. 30-30 does not use the same primers as 30-378.....The later uses LRM. Your comparison has nothing to do with the OPs question.....
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DRA-M40A1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL, he's not loading 30-30 or 30-378, so what's the point in comparing them? </div></div>

1980-05-17-7.jpg


Steve Martin caveman, baffling the rest of the tribe by drawing pictures of bisons and planning strategies for the hunt:

"Imagine that these rocks are us, and this rock is the bison. We circle behind it like this."


Bill Murray caveman: "But... we are not rocks."
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

My point is if the primer is going to flatten or flow around the firing pin on an overcharge with .30-30 then what would it do on a max charge in .30-378? Honestly I don't know what cartridge the OP is loading I'm going to guess .308 from the bullet weight and powder charge though.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerkface11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My point is if the primer is going to flatten or flow around the firing pin on an overcharge with .30-30 then what would it do on a max charge in .30-378? Honestly I don't know what cartridge the OP is loading I'm going to guess .308 from the bullet weight and powder charge though. </div></div>

Each primer is different and will flatten out at different pressure levels, but it in my experience the thicker primers never exhibit signs until 66k PSI or so, which is just over max for any cartridge. If you start seeing primer flattening and cratering (unless the cratering is from a large FP hole) then you need to go back a bit. I don't quite get what you are trying to say about .30-30 though in comparison to a .30-378. They have enormously different case capacities and the .30-30 is traditionally not loaded over 60k PSI like .30-378.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

Flat primers, cratered primers very poor indicator's as is heavy bolt lift. The best indication is ejector imprint and even those not that great depending on brass and rifle. Get a chrono if you really want to develop.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't quite get what you are trying to say about .30-30 though in comparison to a .30-378. They have enormously different case capacities and the .30-30 is traditionally not loaded over 60k PSI like .30-378. </div></div>

That was my point. Huge differences in case capacity and pressure but the same primer.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerkface11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I don't quite get what you are trying to say about .30-30 though in comparison to a .30-378. They have enormously different case capacities and the .30-30 is traditionally not loaded over 60k PSI like .30-378. </div></div>

That was my point. Huge differences in case capacity and pressure but the same primer. </div></div>

Yes, and the primer will start to flow at the same pressure levels. What is your point? If you loaded .30-30 to the point where the primer started flowing you are WAY over published max for .30-30. I don't think that casehead was designed with 60k+ PSI in mind. The OP is not loading for a .30-30 as far as I can tell so using primer flow as a sign that you are over max is acceptable as he is likely firing a modern centerfire rifle cartridge designed for smokeless powder and 60K or more PSI of pressure.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Flat primers, cratered primers very poor indicator's as is heavy bolt lift. The best indication is ejector imprint and even those not that great depending on brass and rifle. Get a chrono if you really want to develop. </div></div>

I don't care if primers come out with an impression of Michelle Obama's face.

But if I have heavy bolt lift, I am backing off on the powder charge. I don't care what the pressure is, heavy bolt lift is bad reality.

What does it all mean?
I don't need a pressure indicator in a strong rifle.
I need a load backed off one safety margin from a practical limit.
Heavy bolt lift is a practical limit.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Flat primers, cratered primers very poor indicator's as is heavy bolt lift. The best indication is ejector imprint and even those not that great depending on brass and rifle. Get a chrono if you really want to develop. </div></div>

I don't care if primers come out with an impression of Michelle Obama's face... </div></div>

Shit I do!!
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Flat primers, cratered primers very poor indicator's as is heavy bolt lift. The best indication is ejector imprint and even those not that great depending on brass and rifle. Get a chrono if you really want to develop. </div></div>

I don't care if primers come out with an impression of Michelle Obama's face.

But if I have heavy bolt lift, I am backing off on the powder charge. I don't care what the pressure is, heavy bolt lift is bad reality.

What does it all mean?
I don't need a pressure indicator in a strong rifle.
I need a load backed off one safety margin from a practical limit.
Heavy bolt lift is a practical limit. </div></div>

I agree, don't give a flip what primers look either unless it is pierced or show signs of leaking. You can over load 20,000 PSI and get smooth bolt lift if lugs are square and chamber smooth as a babies ass.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

Jerkface you are out of your element, you are comparing apples with pomegranates. Yes indeed they look very similar on the outside but that is where it ends.
Many years of experience will teach you that pressure signs come in many forms. Bolt lift yeah sometimes, not always. Primer signs can be misleading in a number of ways but can absolutely indicate pressure if you know how to set up a set of dies. Ejector marks are a definate "slow down" indicator, but remember all brass is not created equal. Velocity will tell you a lot about how far past sane you have gone. Remember, the target does not care how fast the bullet is traveling when it hits home. Pushing equipment and components with overcharges is not required for accuracy.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I don't care if primers come out with an impression of Michelle Obama's face.
</div></div>

What if a rifle had a wide-ass rear end like hers? Like maybe an oversized recoil pad.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you using the sierra manual?

Their data is beyond conservative.</div></div>

If you look at a manual that is from the 80s or so vs now...all the new manuals are wayyy conservative. When lawyers get involved......................
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

Shooter,
There have been many changes in different powders since the 80's. The data now may look conservative but it really isnt. When I was working up a load of H4350 I had a pound that was made in the 80's worked it up and through the pound I had and went and bought an 8lb jug of new manufactured H4350. Guess what? The load I worked up of the older powder was not even close to the load I had to work up with the new manufactured stuff.

Most of the manuals from the 80's didnt have the precise scientific measuring devices that are used today. Is there liability involved in publishing a manual? Of course. Do lawyers have some role in their development? Probably. The truth is you should always start low with a load and work your way up.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WTW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Shooter,
There have been many changes in different powders since the 80's. The data now may look conservative but it really isnt. When I was working up a load of H4350 I had a pound that was made in the 80's worked it up and through the pound I had and went and bought an 8lb jug of new manufactured H4350. Guess what? The load I worked up of the older powder was not even close to the load I had to work up with the new manufactured stuff.

Most of the manuals from the 80's didnt have the precise scientific measuring devices that are used today. Is there liability involved in publishing a manual? Of course. Do lawyers have some role in their development? Probably. The truth is you should always start low with a load and work your way up. </div></div>

Some cartridges have been loaded weaker and weaker over time......take the .44 Magnum for example.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Flat primers, cratered primers very poor indicator's as is heavy bolt lift. The best indication is ejector imprint and even those not that great depending on brass and rifle. Get a chrono if you really want to develop.</div></div>

I understand there are a lot of variables, but why does hornady list the max velocity on the 168gr A-Max at 2600fps in the book, and they load their factory ammo to 2700fps. Powder that we can't get? Or can you load it to 2700fps safely if you aren't getting signs of excessive pressure?
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p25</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I understand there are a lot of variables, but why does hornady list the max velocity on the 168gr A-Max at 2600fps in the book, and they load their factory ammo to 2700fps. Powder that we can't get? Or can you load it to 2700fps safely if you aren't getting signs of excessive pressure? </div></div>

You MAY be able to get 2700fps depending on your rifle. You are well advised to tread lightly beyond listed max in ANY loading manual. Those manuals data are developed with certain rifles under certain conditions that you may or may not match. Yes they may use powder that is not available to you in factory ammo and that is highly likely. They are definately using a different rifle and barrel than you are using. They MAY be fudging on the reported velocity a bit. The book is not a chronograph. You do not know that a particular load will clock what the book says until you shoot over a chronograph. Buy one if you don't have one.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WTW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Most of the manuals from the 80's didnt have the precise scientific measuring devices that are used today. </div></div>
The 1889 7.65x55mm Mauser case head was used in 1905 by the Germans to push a 150 gr bullet from an 8x57mm at 2900 fps.
What "precise scientific measuring devices" did they have to create those loads?
They worked up the loads to the point of first brass yield, and then backed off a % powder charge for safety margin. That process can be repeated today, and the result will be 2900 fps.
What was the pressure?
Who cares?
It was reality. It was outwardly the same case head as the OP's 308.
Eventually mankind would try to measure that pressure and call it a standard.
Then when they got better at measuring, should they?
A) Reduce the loads to fit the erroneous early pressure standards.
B) Increase the pressure standards.
By looking at the history in load books, we can see the former was chosen.

What does it all mean?
Load books got dumbed down.
Error was added to error.
It is alway easier to add insidious error than to change the rules.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter19802003</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you using the sierra manual?

Their data is beyond conservative.</div></div>

If you look at a manual that is from the 80s or so vs now...all the new manuals are wayyy conservative. When lawyers get involved...................... </div></div>

laugh.gif
500 Grains is a lawyer, and he loads like a wimp. He has to with his recoil pads cut down to the size of stiletto high heel foot print
laugh.gif
laugh.gif



The 1970 Sierra load book data are consistent with the 1995 Sierra load book data. And they are more consistent with reality.

Sierra 1970 7mmRM 175 gr.................... 64.5 gr 4831
Sierra 1995 7mmRM 175 gr.....................64.5 gr 4831
My 2008 load development 7mmRM 175gr...65.0 gr 4831
Hodgdon /IMR 2011 7mmRM 175 gr ..........58.0 gr 4831
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p25</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I understand there are a lot of variables, but why does hornady list the max velocity on the 168gr A-Max at 2600fps in the book, and they load their factory ammo to 2700fps. Powder that we can't get? Or can you load it to 2700fps safely if you aren't getting signs of excessive pressure? </div></div>

You MAY be able to get 2700fps depending on your rifle. You are well advised to tread lightly beyond listed max in ANY loading manual. Those manuals data are developed with certain rifles under certain conditions that you may or may not match. Yes they may use powder that is not available to you in factory ammo and that is highly likely. They are definately using a different rifle and barrel than you are using. They MAY be fudging on the reported velocity a bit. The book is not a chronograph. You do not know that a particular load will clock what the book says until you shoot over a chronograph. Buy one if you don't have one. </div></div>
What I was saying is that if you stop at 2600fps, the max velocity in the manual, you may be missing out on 100fps that can be achieved safely. I have a chrono and I have always stopped at book max velocity(and have not yet reached max charge weight). I guess what I am asking is can you safely continue to push this bullet past the max velocity in the manual as long as you are not seeing pressure signs. If you can, why even care what number you get on the chrono until you start seeing overpressure? Just find your max load and then figure out how fast it is.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p25</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p25</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I understand there are a lot of variables, but why does hornady list the max velocity on the 168gr A-Max at 2600fps in the book, and they load their factory ammo to 2700fps. Powder that we can't get? Or can you load it to 2700fps safely if you aren't getting signs of excessive pressure? </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">You MAY be able to get 2700fps depending on your rifle.</span> You are well advised to tread lightly beyond listed max in ANY loading manual. <span style="color: #FF0000">Those manuals data are developed with certain rifles under certain conditions that you may or may not match.</span> Yes they may use powder that is not available to you in factory ammo and that is highly likely. They are definately using a different rifle and barrel than you are using. They MAY be fudging on the reported velocity a bit. The book is not a chronograph. You do not know that a particular load will clock what the book says until you shoot over a chronograph. Buy one if you don't have one. </div></div>
What I was saying is that if you stop at 2600fps, the max velocity in the manuel, you may be missing out on 100fps that can be achieved safely. I have a chrono and I have always stopped at book max velocity(and have not yet reached max charge weight). I guess what I am asking is can you safely continue to push this bullet past the max velocity in the manuel as long as you are not seeing pressure signs. If you can, why even care what number you get on the chrono until you start seeing overpressure? Just find your max load and then figure out how fast it is. </div></div>

Understand I am not being snippy with you but I get a bit preterbed when you quote me and then reply as if you did not read what I wrote. If you have read this entire thread you will come to the conclusion that some pressure signs can be misleading. I will try to be a bit more clear. If your rifle shoots that load fine with no early warning signs whatsoever and it is 1 gr over max well maybe that is fine for your rifle. Only you can answer how comfortable you are exceeding listed book maximums. I have loaded for 29years and I have never seen a time, even shooting 1000yd BR, that I needed to shoot a ball screeming max load. If you are trying to reach a certain range with a cartridge that is on the outside of its ability then the BEST option is to get a different chambering instead of risking the destruction of your equipment. Go to a heavier bullet. I know the trajectory won't be as flat but that is why we have elevation turrets on a scope. I have never seen a cartridge yet that I could not find an accuracy node at or below book listed max. Then again do what you want, especially if you don't think book max means anything. All manuals are not the same. All rifles are not the same. I don't know how I could be any more clear on that. I have seen 2 rifles that developed severe headspace from guys who were convinced that loading manual max loads were far too conservative.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

I have spent thousands of hours overloading 39 different cartridges in work ups to find the real limit.
All my target loads and all my hunting loads are way over max book loads.
All those useful overloads are reduced by a safety margin from the problems I find in work ups.
Vernon Speer recommended a blanket figure of 6% powder reduction in 1956, but I vary the safety margin for the application.

Most hand loaders never get past book loads, and should stay there.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

I did not mean to offend you armorpl8, but you are either missing my point or I am not explaining it very well. When the writers of whatever book you are using compiles their data, how are they getting it and what exactly is max value?

1) Is max value the velocity because that is where they begin to see pressure issues or achieve the max chamber pressure on whatever guage they are using? In other words do they figure that this velocity will most likely be the highest achievable with safe pressure?
2) Is max value the powder charge that they found gave the max pressure on a gauge or showed danger signs? Or possibly they deem this to be the max powder charge that will produce safe pressures? The corresponding velocity happens to be what they achieved with the powder charge that they deemed to be safe.

Maybe this is a chicken and egg question, I don't know. That is why I am asking. I am just trying to understand the relationship between velocity and pressure and how it relates to book max. Should velocity be considered the max? Work carfully up from there if you choose to do so? Or should the listed max powder charge be considered max? Or is there a happy medium somewhere? I fully understand that every difference in what they are using and what I am using makes a difference. I certainly don't want to ruin my equipment or myself.
Think about it this way. Which is more important to approach or exceed with caution, velocity or charge weight? Maybe both, I don't know, that is why I am asking.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p25</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did not mean to offend you armorpl8, but you are either missing my point or I am not explaining it very well. When the writers of whatever book you are using compiles their data, how are they getting it and what exactly is max value?

1) Is max value the velocity because that is where they begin to see pressure issues or achieve the max chamber pressure on whatever guage they are using? In other words do they figure that this velocity will most likely be the highest achievable with safe pressure?
2) Is max value the powder charge that they found gave the max pressure on a gauge or showed danger signs? Or possibly they deem this to be the max powder charge that will produce safe pressures? The corresponding velocity happens to be what they achieved with the powder charge that they deemed to be safe.

Maybe this is a chicken and egg question, I don't know. That is why I am asking. I am just trying to understand the relationship between velocity and pressure and how it relates to book max. Should velocity be considered the max? Work carfully up from there if you choose to do so? Or should the listed max powder charge be considered max? Or is there a happy medium somewhere? I fully understand that every difference in what they are using and what I am using makes a difference. I certainly don't want to ruin my equipment or myself.
Think about it this way. Which is more important to approach or exceed with caution, velocity or charge weight? Maybe both, I don't know, that is why I am asking. </div></div>
You did not offend me at all, I am not a teacher so I don't have much patience
smile.gif
If you have never read your loading manual please do so from cover to cover. Most, like Sierra, have a great deal of valuable technical info. I reccomend getting your hands on an old Lyman manual as well, there is some very useful information in a Lyman manual besides the actual loads.
1) I think I understand. You want to know how do they come up with these arbitrary numbers in a manual? Well many different companies have all kinds of equipment and not all use the same methods. Some use pressure barrels and when the load gets to SAAMI max(a PSI standard determined for a certain cartridge, 30-30 is lower number than the 223, has nothing to do with cartridge capacity) then that is max. Sometimes they use a regular rifle just like you buy in the store and I can only assume that they use many of the same methods we use to come to their conclusion. In this scenario I can see how the data will seem conservative, and it may well be sometimes. Much of the data is based on the yeild strength of brass. Again not all brass is created equal some brands can be stronger than others but all may vary lot to lot. I think I actually may have covered both 1) and 2). The velocity is what it is, yes, when they get to max by whatever they deem that to be, by the methods they are using, the velocity is what it is, period.
I tell you what you can do. Read all you can on "case head expansion". This is one of the most definative ways to see if you are in danger of blowing a case. If your case head expands .0001" measured at a very distict point on your case then you need to back off. If any part of the head of your brass begins to "flow" it has been exposed to at or near its yield strength, just that simple. One thing I definately agree with Clark on here is that many should stick to the book and do it by the book.
I have loaded for many wildcats over the years, and still do, where there was little to no data available. Yes I have "winged it", but I had a lot of normal experience and many hours of reading under my belt before I was ready to play outside the box.
Between a friend and myself we have 3, 6BR custom XP100 pistols. All 3 wear 15 inch barrels and were cut with the same reamer. We shoot nothing but Varget and either 105Amax or 107SMK and all 3 guns have a different max load. Somewhere around .5 grain between them. This should illustrate why you must be very careful beyond the posted norm. Just make sur you know exactly what you are doing and what Newton's laws apply.
 
Re: 2 + grains over book max?

The manufacturer of propellant or projectile that puts the manual out uses their liability comfort zone as a guide. Sure there is science of pressure and a lot more involved than I would pretend to know about, but I also know this:

-They test to the maximum pressure their risk management research and lawyers have decided would be safe in the biggest piece of shit pot metal weapon manufactured.

Not uncommon to safely go above book max if you know what to look for and assume the liability of doing so.