2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
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Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage110</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Haha my daddy can't own one cause he's Canadian, happy Austin?
Want a cookie? </div></div>
I do not foresee this ending well...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage110</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Haha my daddy can't own one cause he's Canadian, happy Austin?
Want a cookie? </div></div>
I do not foresee this ending well...
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
.22LR barreled action that we can drop into our own stock (ie - AICS or PSS or A5)
That would cut the cost down and I'm sure most guys could come up with a stock to put it in or just make a barreled action an option on the order ?
Tack-driving trainer in 22LR with a picatinny rail on top so that I can swap onto it the same scope that I use on my other tactical rigs - now that would be cool.
.22LR barreled action that we can drop into our own stock (ie - AICS or PSS or A5)
That would cut the cost down and I'm sure most guys could come up with a stock to put it in or just make a barreled action an option on the order ?
Tack-driving trainer in 22LR with a picatinny rail on top so that I can swap onto it the same scope that I use on my other tactical rigs - now that would be cool.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
yeah one of the companies making actions need to make a rimfire that is full size so people can stop chasing the 40x and have a nice action to start with.
yeah one of the companies making actions need to make a rimfire that is full size so people can stop chasing the 40x and have a nice action to start with.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _Shay_ ©</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage110</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Haha my daddy can't own one cause he's Canadian, happy Austin?
Want a cookie? </div></div>
I do not foresee this ending well... </div></div>
Austin knows Im just messing with him.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _Shay_ ©</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Savage110</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Haha my daddy can't own one cause he's Canadian, happy Austin?
Want a cookie? </div></div>
I do not foresee this ending well... </div></div>
Austin knows Im just messing with him.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
effin wish i lived in the states now guys.
stuck here with nothing but bolt actions and pistol laws that make 'em impossible to own.
effin wish i lived in the states now guys.
stuck here with nothing but bolt actions and pistol laws that make 'em impossible to own.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
I think something based on the Savage 111 Long Range Hunter, chambered as above, with a factory DM and a Camo finish added, could come right out of the Savage factory, complete with sloped base, and maybe still make an under $1500 price point if a significantly large commitment were made. This is pure conjecture, but more serious inquiries could be made by responsible individuals.
Greg
I think something based on the Savage 111 Long Range Hunter, chambered as above, with a factory DM and a Camo finish added, could come right out of the Savage factory, complete with sloped base, and maybe still make an under $1500 price point if a significantly large commitment were made. This is pure conjecture, but more serious inquiries could be made by responsible individuals.
Greg
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c1steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it was a .22 trainer, a A3 stock with the slimmer fore end would probably be better than the A5. No need for the butt hook either. Definitely not something as butt ugly as the A4. </div></div>
How about the new A3 hunter in edge fill?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c1steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it was a .22 trainer, a A3 stock with the slimmer fore end would probably be better than the A5. No need for the butt hook either. Definitely not something as butt ugly as the A4. </div></div>
How about the new A3 hunter in edge fill?
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
looks like alot of intrest in the .22 lr platform as a trainer.
a previous suggestion of a rifle / pistol combo sounded good also, but like Lowlight commented with the economy and such and such, probably not a good idea in the sales dept....
how about a 22lr rifle and .22 pistol combo?
22lr rifle and ammo package?
doing a sako quad or CZ 455 give you the rimfire caliber swap option.
a 40X receiver would give the shooter the option of future stock swap options if so desired....
the lower / barely no recoil would allow more affordable good glass options to be put on top.
of course a threaded barrel can be used for the included "muzzle brake" that comes with it, if it happens to be the same threading as many suppressors, well then, quite a coincidence...
looks like alot of intrest in the .22 lr platform as a trainer.
a previous suggestion of a rifle / pistol combo sounded good also, but like Lowlight commented with the economy and such and such, probably not a good idea in the sales dept....
how about a 22lr rifle and .22 pistol combo?
22lr rifle and ammo package?
doing a sako quad or CZ 455 give you the rimfire caliber swap option.
a 40X receiver would give the shooter the option of future stock swap options if so desired....
the lower / barely no recoil would allow more affordable good glass options to be put on top.
of course a threaded barrel can be used for the included "muzzle brake" that comes with it, if it happens to be the same threading as many suppressors, well then, quite a coincidence...
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
I believe Mike Bush is got something on the drawing board with a 22 lr action. If the 22 trainer takes off, what Mike has may well be worth lookin into. I would even opt to have another barrel in 17hmr to put on for squirrel season. A rifle with 2 purposes.
I believe Mike Bush is got something on the drawing board with a 22 lr action. If the 22 trainer takes off, what Mike has may well be worth lookin into. I would even opt to have another barrel in 17hmr to put on for squirrel season. A rifle with 2 purposes.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Guys like me make terrible customers for the truly accomplished builders. Our purchasing capacity is simply not in their league.
So when SH Builds come along, they become a matter of academic interest to us, because they simply cannot ever be anything else. It's not about envy or displeasure of any kind, we simply understand the truth of the unwritten maxim; folks like us need not apply.
In today's market, the builders are backed up til doomsday, and a whole lotta people just aren't in the hunt due to a period of pronounced financial suckage.
I'm thinking $6K, as someone mentioned above, is not my cuppa tea. I'm thinking a package, a C/F and an R/F, without optics, for around $2K, now maybe that could catch on.
A midscale rifle, from a producer who can actually find the production capacity do the work and even provide a factory warrantee, maybe that's not so completely far fetched. When asking for the Moon is really a tad more than what's actually necessary (or currently affordable)...
Maybe it's a unique moment to take a cold hard look at the playing field and say, "If there ever was a time for something completely different...".
And in basic concept, it's not <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> different from what we preach, either.
Greg
Guys like me make terrible customers for the truly accomplished builders. Our purchasing capacity is simply not in their league.
So when SH Builds come along, they become a matter of academic interest to us, because they simply cannot ever be anything else. It's not about envy or displeasure of any kind, we simply understand the truth of the unwritten maxim; folks like us need not apply.
In today's market, the builders are backed up til doomsday, and a whole lotta people just aren't in the hunt due to a period of pronounced financial suckage.
I'm thinking $6K, as someone mentioned above, is not my cuppa tea. I'm thinking a package, a C/F and an R/F, without optics, for around $2K, now maybe that could catch on.
A midscale rifle, from a producer who can actually find the production capacity do the work and even provide a factory warrantee, maybe that's not so completely far fetched. When asking for the Moon is really a tad more than what's actually necessary (or currently affordable)...
Maybe it's a unique moment to take a cold hard look at the playing field and say, "If there ever was a time for something completely different...".
And in basic concept, it's not <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> different from what we preach, either.
Greg
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
The 22 trainer isn't novel. Jered @ APA did a fine 22 trainer for us and it wasn't easy getting the order filled quickly.
I wouldn't sell or trade mine for anything!!!
Well maybe I would! lol
The 22 trainer isn't novel. Jered @ APA did a fine 22 trainer for us and it wasn't easy getting the order filled quickly.
I wouldn't sell or trade mine for anything!!!
Well maybe I would! lol
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Anzio 20mm! lol..naaa But I agree that a budget minded, yet decent build is the best idea. The .22 idea is great, but (my personal opinion) I can't see paying more than a few hundred dollars for a .22lr. I understand costs of ammo, but as my instructors always told me.."train like you fight". The .22 can be used in many facets of training, but in the end it is not your normal rifle. Now, I must admit that I'm a bit bias to Savage. It's a great "bang for buck" rifle. A 10FP with HS Precision stock, add a new barrel, 20 moa rail, and a choice of optics and you have a relatively cheap yet well preforming rifle. It's no GAP, but neither is the price tag.
Anzio 20mm! lol..naaa But I agree that a budget minded, yet decent build is the best idea. The .22 idea is great, but (my personal opinion) I can't see paying more than a few hundred dollars for a .22lr. I understand costs of ammo, but as my instructors always told me.."train like you fight". The .22 can be used in many facets of training, but in the end it is not your normal rifle. Now, I must admit that I'm a bit bias to Savage. It's a great "bang for buck" rifle. A 10FP with HS Precision stock, add a new barrel, 20 moa rail, and a choice of optics and you have a relatively cheap yet well preforming rifle. It's no GAP, but neither is the price tag.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
No matter what stock A5, A3 or ? - as long as it was a drop in to a Remington short action stock. It would replicate a M40 type looking barreled action with the ability to mount a tapered picatinny rail on top and if it could be threaded 1/2 x 28 for suppressor use then that would be a damn fine setup FOR ME THAT IS...
I just want something that looks and feels exactly like my .308 tactical rifle but in 22LR.
If guys want the complete rifle package that's fine but I'd want a barreled action option though as I've got a stock or two that I could drop it into and go play. I would guess that there are LOTS of SH members that would be interested in the barreled action setup as they are trying to save $ as well and this would give them an option to pursue.
Anyone seen the TBA M40 rifle that is a 22LR ? That is what I'd like to replicate but only with a Remington short action compatible receiver.
No matter what stock A5, A3 or ? - as long as it was a drop in to a Remington short action stock. It would replicate a M40 type looking barreled action with the ability to mount a tapered picatinny rail on top and if it could be threaded 1/2 x 28 for suppressor use then that would be a damn fine setup FOR ME THAT IS...
I just want something that looks and feels exactly like my .308 tactical rifle but in 22LR.
If guys want the complete rifle package that's fine but I'd want a barreled action option though as I've got a stock or two that I could drop it into and go play. I would guess that there are LOTS of SH members that would be interested in the barreled action setup as they are trying to save $ as well and this would give them an option to pursue.
Anyone seen the TBA M40 rifle that is a 22LR ? That is what I'd like to replicate but only with a Remington short action compatible receiver.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Maybe a Hide 22 trainer could get Stiller to finish the rimfire action.
Maybe a Hide 22 trainer could get Stiller to finish the rimfire action.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
I like the idea of a .22 trainer too. I tried to teach my sons the basics of shooting on the 10/22 but it was tough always fighting those triggers!!! Right, try and squeeze that. I couldn't afford to upgrade the trigger for 2-3 times the cost of the rifle.
A dedicated trainer would be perfect if it was priced right. The point is to save on ammo right?
Seekers
I like the idea of a .22 trainer too. I tried to teach my sons the basics of shooting on the 10/22 but it was tough always fighting those triggers!!! Right, try and squeeze that. I couldn't afford to upgrade the trigger for 2-3 times the cost of the rifle.
A dedicated trainer would be perfect if it was priced right. The point is to save on ammo right?
Seekers
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Every year everyone talks about how the next year's build should be a 22LR trainer and how much they want one. But when Jered stepped up and organized the Sako/T4 build to actually produce a 22LR trainer group buy suddenly people who were so flippantly posting "I'd want one" on the forums weren't so quick to pull out their wallets and actually pay for one.
If you're not willing to part with the $$ for a decent trigger for your 10/22 I seriously doubt you're going to be onboard for the $1600-$2000 to build a proper 22LR trainer. Everyone seems to think that just because it's a 22LR then it should only cost them a couple hundred bucks for a build. A Rem 700 donor action is only $300-$400. But a rifle from Jared or George is going to cost you 5 to 6 times that. Why? Because it's all the other parts, and time and everything that goes into it. A 22LR trainer is going to have the same $600+ sunk into a good stock, the same $150 sunk into a good sight base, the same $$$ sunk into quality smithing. Some parts will be a little cheaper, sure, a Lilja barrel comes pre-chambered for only $400, but at the same time some parts are going to be more expensive because you're going to have to get new designs pushed into low-output production. Most likely no one makes a quality sight-base or bottom metal for your odd-ball 22LR action, so you're going to pay more than you would for a Rem 700 version.
Every year everyone talks about how the next year's build should be a 22LR trainer and how much they want one. But when Jered stepped up and organized the Sako/T4 build to actually produce a 22LR trainer group buy suddenly people who were so flippantly posting "I'd want one" on the forums weren't so quick to pull out their wallets and actually pay for one.
If you're not willing to part with the $$ for a decent trigger for your 10/22 I seriously doubt you're going to be onboard for the $1600-$2000 to build a proper 22LR trainer. Everyone seems to think that just because it's a 22LR then it should only cost them a couple hundred bucks for a build. A Rem 700 donor action is only $300-$400. But a rifle from Jared or George is going to cost you 5 to 6 times that. Why? Because it's all the other parts, and time and everything that goes into it. A 22LR trainer is going to have the same $600+ sunk into a good stock, the same $150 sunk into a good sight base, the same $$$ sunk into quality smithing. Some parts will be a little cheaper, sure, a Lilja barrel comes pre-chambered for only $400, but at the same time some parts are going to be more expensive because you're going to have to get new designs pushed into low-output production. Most likely no one makes a quality sight-base or bottom metal for your odd-ball 22LR action, so you're going to pay more than you would for a Rem 700 version.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Couldn't have said it any better Rat!!!</div></div>
It's a shame, though, cause the Sako build turned out absolutely fantastic. I love mine.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Couldn't have said it any better Rat!!!</div></div>
It's a shame, though, cause the Sako build turned out absolutely fantastic. I love mine.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Couldn't have said it any better Rat!!!</div></div>
It's a shame, though, cause the Sako build turned out absolutely fantastic. I love mine.
</div></div>
Mine is my most shot Rifle since I got it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Couldn't have said it any better Rat!!!</div></div>
It's a shame, though, cause the Sako build turned out absolutely fantastic. I love mine.
</div></div>
Mine is my most shot Rifle since I got it.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every year everyone talks about how the next year's build should be a 22LR trainer and how much they want one. But when Jered stepped up and organized the Sako/T4 build to actually produce a 22LR trainer group buy <span style="font-weight: bold">suddenly people who were so flippantly posting "I'd want one" on the forums </span>weren't so quick to pull out their wallets and actually pay for one.<span style="font-weight: bold">If you're not willing to part with the $$ for a decent trigger for your 10/22 I seriously doubt you're going to be onboard for the $1600-$2000 to build a proper 22LR trainer. </span></div></div>
There is a big difference between those that "can't afford" a $1600-2000 build and those that "flippantly posting I'd want one.
I never said I wouldn't spend the money for a better trigger for my 10/22. I said I couldn't afford to. I also qualified my post with "if the price is right"
I mentioned cost because that is a factor for me. I'm on Social Security Disability and it wouldn't be possible for me to spend that much on a "trainer".
I'm glad that a $1600 build isn't a problem for some of you right now but not all of us are in the same boat.
One last point since you mentioned my post, I never said "I'd want one, I simple said, "I like the idea" and what my criteria were.
Seekers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every year everyone talks about how the next year's build should be a 22LR trainer and how much they want one. But when Jered stepped up and organized the Sako/T4 build to actually produce a 22LR trainer group buy <span style="font-weight: bold">suddenly people who were so flippantly posting "I'd want one" on the forums </span>weren't so quick to pull out their wallets and actually pay for one.<span style="font-weight: bold">If you're not willing to part with the $$ for a decent trigger for your 10/22 I seriously doubt you're going to be onboard for the $1600-$2000 to build a proper 22LR trainer. </span></div></div>
There is a big difference between those that "can't afford" a $1600-2000 build and those that "flippantly posting I'd want one.
I never said I wouldn't spend the money for a better trigger for my 10/22. I said I couldn't afford to. I also qualified my post with "if the price is right"
I mentioned cost because that is a factor for me. I'm on Social Security Disability and it wouldn't be possible for me to spend that much on a "trainer".
I'm glad that a $1600 build isn't a problem for some of you right now but not all of us are in the same boat.
One last point since you mentioned my post, I never said "I'd want one, I simple said, "I like the idea" and what my criteria were.
Seekers
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hide rifles are not as easy as it sounds saying, hey let's do "X" it takes a lot to put it together, the shops have a sizable commitment and in reality even 15 custom sticks is a lot for most.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know a lot of folks see this as a opportunity to go for a specialized rifle with a stellar pedigree. Works for me, but so do other ideas. Looking, as we say, at this economy; I wonder if it isn't time to configure a 'rifle for the common man'.
We've had an ongoing love affair with the Savage platform. While nobody's talked to me directly, they would appear to have attended our messages and their lines have swung into some pretty close conformance with our stated ideals. Maybe it's time to approach them more directly.
I think something that's configured to take advantage of those more recent improvements, Accue-trigger, Accue-Stock, and decent overall ergos to provide a carry package that's a pretty good accuracy package is well within the capability of Savage to produce as a proprietary 'Snipers' Hide Express", or somesuch.
I think a Long Action, with a .270, .280, .30-'06 and .35 Whelen chambering selection, somewhere along the lines of a Predator, but with at least a 22" barrel, midweight so its walkable. The Predator Camo options look OK.
Optics provided, selected from somewhere more midrange, bang-for-buck.
Pair it with a look-alike Savage MKII, and Voila!, the SH Tactical Trainer/Shooter package, probably at a cost that's more in line with the economy, and with a concept that's more in line with our general philosophies.
Maybe a <span style="font-style: italic">Shadow Dancer Duet</span>...?
Just sayin'...
Greg </div></div>
Savage has been showing a real tendency to listen to and respond to their customers desires and with the 10BAS-K, 10BAT/S-K and 110BA they have shown an interest and investment in the tactical/precision market. Savage has the capacity and probably has the willingness (it never hurts to ask) to partner on a venture like this and their trainer .22's look fantastic and get great reviews.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hide rifles are not as easy as it sounds saying, hey let's do "X" it takes a lot to put it together, the shops have a sizable commitment and in reality even 15 custom sticks is a lot for most.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know a lot of folks see this as a opportunity to go for a specialized rifle with a stellar pedigree. Works for me, but so do other ideas. Looking, as we say, at this economy; I wonder if it isn't time to configure a 'rifle for the common man'.
We've had an ongoing love affair with the Savage platform. While nobody's talked to me directly, they would appear to have attended our messages and their lines have swung into some pretty close conformance with our stated ideals. Maybe it's time to approach them more directly.
I think something that's configured to take advantage of those more recent improvements, Accue-trigger, Accue-Stock, and decent overall ergos to provide a carry package that's a pretty good accuracy package is well within the capability of Savage to produce as a proprietary 'Snipers' Hide Express", or somesuch.
I think a Long Action, with a .270, .280, .30-'06 and .35 Whelen chambering selection, somewhere along the lines of a Predator, but with at least a 22" barrel, midweight so its walkable. The Predator Camo options look OK.
Optics provided, selected from somewhere more midrange, bang-for-buck.
Pair it with a look-alike Savage MKII, and Voila!, the SH Tactical Trainer/Shooter package, probably at a cost that's more in line with the economy, and with a concept that's more in line with our general philosophies.
Maybe a <span style="font-style: italic">Shadow Dancer Duet</span>...?
Just sayin'...
Greg </div></div>
Savage has been showing a real tendency to listen to and respond to their customers desires and with the 10BAS-K, 10BAT/S-K and 110BA they have shown an interest and investment in the tactical/precision market. Savage has the capacity and probably has the willingness (it never hurts to ask) to partner on a venture like this and their trainer .22's look fantastic and get great reviews.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Wanting a .22 trainer that duplicates a C/F rifle in function and feel. Why?
Barrelled action option? You can buy and put together a Savage action from Savage, and the barrel of your choice from any one of many quality suppliers.
I can understand folks feeling that a good rifle must cost a bigger bucks.
Can they understand that peformance and satisfaction probably well beyond their own abilities can be had for far less, and directly from a production product line, without premium pricetags. Are they willing to even consider the possibility?
I don't think this detracts from the quality builders here. From what I hear, they have business enough to back them up significantly. I think it empowers a newer shooter to shoot with precision, thereby entering the market they serve. Somewhere down the road, this generates a customer for them, and it gets more folks into that mainstream sooner. Some of them may even see the logic and get behind this.
And some will cling slavishly to the maxim, more expensive is more..., what?
At what point do the armies of functionality and snobbery collide? Which one carries the day?
Which one do we stand amongst, as The Snipers' Hide?
I never hurts to ask, and I think these are questions worth asking in these times when bucks are few, and we need all the committed allies we can find.
I've beaten this line of logic into its corner, so I'll try and keep back out of play. My point is made, and it was never really going to be up to me anyway.
Greg
Wanting a .22 trainer that duplicates a C/F rifle in function and feel. Why?
Barrelled action option? You can buy and put together a Savage action from Savage, and the barrel of your choice from any one of many quality suppliers.
I can understand folks feeling that a good rifle must cost a bigger bucks.
Can they understand that peformance and satisfaction probably well beyond their own abilities can be had for far less, and directly from a production product line, without premium pricetags. Are they willing to even consider the possibility?
I don't think this detracts from the quality builders here. From what I hear, they have business enough to back them up significantly. I think it empowers a newer shooter to shoot with precision, thereby entering the market they serve. Somewhere down the road, this generates a customer for them, and it gets more folks into that mainstream sooner. Some of them may even see the logic and get behind this.
And some will cling slavishly to the maxim, more expensive is more..., what?
At what point do the armies of functionality and snobbery collide? Which one carries the day?
Which one do we stand amongst, as The Snipers' Hide?
I never hurts to ask, and I think these are questions worth asking in these times when bucks are few, and we need all the committed allies we can find.
I've beaten this line of logic into its corner, so I'll try and keep back out of play. My point is made, and it was never really going to be up to me anyway.
Greg
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
I posted an idea, but if we are talking what would be a 2010 hide build that I could plunk money down on I'd have to say this:
Given my personal economy of the past couple years I'd be in for a SnipersHide Edition of a box of 162gr .284 Amax's......
I posted an idea, but if we are talking what would be a 2010 hide build that I could plunk money down on I'd have to say this:
Given my personal economy of the past couple years I'd be in for a SnipersHide Edition of a box of 162gr .284 Amax's......
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wanting a .22 trainer that duplicates a C/F rifle in function and feel. Why?
Barrelled action option? You can buy and put together a Savage action from Savage, and the barrel of your choice from any one of many quality suppliers.
I can understand folks feeling that a good rifle must cost a bigger bucks.
Can they understand that peformance and satisfaction probably well beyond their own abilities can be had for far less, and directly from a production product line, without premium pricetags. Are they willing to even consider the possibility?
I don't think this detracts from the quality builders here. From what I hear, they have business enough to back them up significantly. I think it empowers a newer shooter to shoot with precision, thereby entering the market they serve. Somewhere down the road, this generates a customer for them, and it gets more folks into that mainstream sooner. Some of them may even see the logic and get behind this.
And some will cling slavishly to the maxim, more expensive is more..., what?
At what point do the armies of functionality and snobbery collide? Which one carries the day?
Which one do we stand amongst, as The Snipers' Hide?
I never hurts to ask, and I think these are questions worth asking in these times when bucks are few, and we need all the committed allies we can find.
Greg</div></div>
I typed a big long rant here, but deleted it because I didn't think this thread was an appropriate place to argue the value proposition of form vs function.
I will say I don't really believe the idea behind a "Hide Edition" rifle is to do a group buy on a factory production rifle. That's more of a "Wally World Edition" where the only thing special about the edition is the "special edition" stamp on the side. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't get the feeling that Frank is attempting to run a CMP program with this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wanting a .22 trainer that duplicates a C/F rifle in function and feel. Why?
Barrelled action option? You can buy and put together a Savage action from Savage, and the barrel of your choice from any one of many quality suppliers.
I can understand folks feeling that a good rifle must cost a bigger bucks.
Can they understand that peformance and satisfaction probably well beyond their own abilities can be had for far less, and directly from a production product line, without premium pricetags. Are they willing to even consider the possibility?
I don't think this detracts from the quality builders here. From what I hear, they have business enough to back them up significantly. I think it empowers a newer shooter to shoot with precision, thereby entering the market they serve. Somewhere down the road, this generates a customer for them, and it gets more folks into that mainstream sooner. Some of them may even see the logic and get behind this.
And some will cling slavishly to the maxim, more expensive is more..., what?
At what point do the armies of functionality and snobbery collide? Which one carries the day?
Which one do we stand amongst, as The Snipers' Hide?
I never hurts to ask, and I think these are questions worth asking in these times when bucks are few, and we need all the committed allies we can find.
Greg</div></div>
I typed a big long rant here, but deleted it because I didn't think this thread was an appropriate place to argue the value proposition of form vs function.
I will say I don't really believe the idea behind a "Hide Edition" rifle is to do a group buy on a factory production rifle. That's more of a "Wally World Edition" where the only thing special about the edition is the "special edition" stamp on the side. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't get the feeling that Frank is attempting to run a CMP program with this.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seekers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every year everyone talks about how the next year's build should be a 22LR trainer and how much they want one. But when Jered stepped up and organized the Sako/T4 build to actually produce a 22LR trainer group buy <span style="font-weight: bold">suddenly people who were so flippantly posting "I'd want one" on the forums </span>weren't so quick to pull out their wallets and actually pay for one.<span style="font-weight: bold">If you're not willing to part with the $$ for a decent trigger for your 10/22 I seriously doubt you're going to be onboard for the $1600-$2000 to build a proper 22LR trainer. </span></div></div>
There is a big difference between those that "can't afford" a $1600-2000 build and those that "flippantly posting I'd want one.
I never said I wouldn't spend the money for a better trigger for my 10/22. I said I couldn't afford to. I also qualified my post with "if the price is right"
I mentioned cost because that is a factor for me. I'm on Social Security Disability and it wouldn't be possible for me to spend that much on a "trainer".
I'm glad that a $1600 build isn't a problem for some of you right now but not all of us are in the same boat.
One last point since you mentioned my post, I never said "I'd want one, I simple said, "I like the idea" and what my criteria were.
Seekers
</div></div>
I'd buy quite a few things "if the price was right." However that doesn't really seem to matter to the local Ferrari Owners Club membership committee. There is always someone who has more money and always someone who has less. Things cost what they cost and we each make decisions on what we can afford what we can't. But sounding off on what you'd like to see on a rifle you know (at least somewhere deep down) you can/will never buy is as useful as me weighing in on what track I think the Ferrari club should hold their annual members picnic at.
I don't intend this as a direct criticism of you personally, I am just using your comments to provide context for discussion of a larger issue within the thread.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seekers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every year everyone talks about how the next year's build should be a 22LR trainer and how much they want one. But when Jered stepped up and organized the Sako/T4 build to actually produce a 22LR trainer group buy <span style="font-weight: bold">suddenly people who were so flippantly posting "I'd want one" on the forums </span>weren't so quick to pull out their wallets and actually pay for one.<span style="font-weight: bold">If you're not willing to part with the $$ for a decent trigger for your 10/22 I seriously doubt you're going to be onboard for the $1600-$2000 to build a proper 22LR trainer. </span></div></div>
There is a big difference between those that "can't afford" a $1600-2000 build and those that "flippantly posting I'd want one.
I never said I wouldn't spend the money for a better trigger for my 10/22. I said I couldn't afford to. I also qualified my post with "if the price is right"
I mentioned cost because that is a factor for me. I'm on Social Security Disability and it wouldn't be possible for me to spend that much on a "trainer".
I'm glad that a $1600 build isn't a problem for some of you right now but not all of us are in the same boat.
One last point since you mentioned my post, I never said "I'd want one, I simple said, "I like the idea" and what my criteria were.
Seekers
</div></div>
I'd buy quite a few things "if the price was right." However that doesn't really seem to matter to the local Ferrari Owners Club membership committee. There is always someone who has more money and always someone who has less. Things cost what they cost and we each make decisions on what we can afford what we can't. But sounding off on what you'd like to see on a rifle you know (at least somewhere deep down) you can/will never buy is as useful as me weighing in on what track I think the Ferrari club should hold their annual members picnic at.
I don't intend this as a direct criticism of you personally, I am just using your comments to provide context for discussion of a larger issue within the thread.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
I kinda like Greg's suggestion for a common man's rifle but I would go a different route. Start out with a 700 SPS tactical in choice of 223 or 308 and have a competant smith true up the action, set the barrel back, rechamber, recrown, surface grind the lug and bed in a decent stock. Maybe a bolt handle and coating for good measure. Should be accurate enough and a good all around rifle and shouldn't break the bank either.
I kinda like Greg's suggestion for a common man's rifle but I would go a different route. Start out with a 700 SPS tactical in choice of 223 or 308 and have a competant smith true up the action, set the barrel back, rechamber, recrown, surface grind the lug and bed in a decent stock. Maybe a bolt handle and coating for good measure. Should be accurate enough and a good all around rifle and shouldn't break the bank either.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tennessean</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I kinda like Greg's suggestion for a common man's rifle but I would go a different route. Start out with a 700 SPS tactical in choice of 223 or 308 and have a competant smith true up the action, set the barrel back, rechamber, recrown, surface grind the lug and bed in a decent stock. Maybe a bolt handle and coating for good measure. Should be accurate enough and a good all around rifle and shouldn't break the bank either.</div></div>
With doing that you've saved the cost of a barrel blank, arguably the most important part of a rifle. Beyond that how is it really any different than any other basic custom?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tennessean</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I kinda like Greg's suggestion for a common man's rifle but I would go a different route. Start out with a 700 SPS tactical in choice of 223 or 308 and have a competant smith true up the action, set the barrel back, rechamber, recrown, surface grind the lug and bed in a decent stock. Maybe a bolt handle and coating for good measure. Should be accurate enough and a good all around rifle and shouldn't break the bank either.</div></div>
With doing that you've saved the cost of a barrel blank, arguably the most important part of a rifle. Beyond that how is it really any different than any other basic custom?
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Ratbert said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Things cost what they cost and we each make decisions on what we can afford what we can't.<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline"> But sounding off on what you'd like to see on a rifle you know (at least somewhere deep down) you can/will never </span>buy</span> is as useful as me weighing in on what track I think the Ferrari club should hold their annual members picnic at.
</div></div>
This is a free board, I'm just as much a member as you are and free to voice my opinion about what I'd like to see on the build. Why do you feel you can set the rules for who can say what?
Several builds have been mentioned about even the 22 trainers including having a production Savage run. Nobody knows what the price would be on such a rifle or what I would be able to do when the time comes.
You on the other hand should Know better to start flapping your gums about what another man will or won't do! Especially "deep down"
So I would appreciate it if you would just back up, and shut-up about things you know nothing about.
If you don't find my input useful that's OK. I thought the purpose was to air out ideas and open the floor for discussion not let someone start ridiculing people for their circumstances in life.
Like you said, if they aren't going to buy it, their input is like someone without a Ferrari having input about the Ferrari track.
Sounds pretty elitist to me...
Maybe you're not a jerk,
Maybe you just sound like one on here.
Regards,
Seekers
Ratbert said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Things cost what they cost and we each make decisions on what we can afford what we can't.<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline"> But sounding off on what you'd like to see on a rifle you know (at least somewhere deep down) you can/will never </span>buy</span> is as useful as me weighing in on what track I think the Ferrari club should hold their annual members picnic at.
</div></div>
This is a free board, I'm just as much a member as you are and free to voice my opinion about what I'd like to see on the build. Why do you feel you can set the rules for who can say what?
Several builds have been mentioned about even the 22 trainers including having a production Savage run. Nobody knows what the price would be on such a rifle or what I would be able to do when the time comes.
You on the other hand should Know better to start flapping your gums about what another man will or won't do! Especially "deep down"
So I would appreciate it if you would just back up, and shut-up about things you know nothing about.
If you don't find my input useful that's OK. I thought the purpose was to air out ideas and open the floor for discussion not let someone start ridiculing people for their circumstances in life.
Like you said, if they aren't going to buy it, their input is like someone without a Ferrari having input about the Ferrari track.
Sounds pretty elitist to me...
Maybe you're not a jerk,
Maybe you just sound like one on here.
Regards,
Seekers
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
I never said you weren't free to express your opinion, that is other people's job, I was merely pointing out that in doing so you weren't really contributing to the discussion in a practical way. Happily as this has dragged on I am not contributing to the original discussion in a meaningful way either, so touche' on that point.
Perhaps I was a bit vague originally, but the clueful DO have some idea what the price on a rifle Frank would build as a Hide Edition would be, but to be fair PM me your address and if he announces a 22LR trainer for anything less that $1000 I will mail you a box of Dunkin Donuts by way of apology.
You can ask anyone, I'm definitely a jerk. But your type likes us bad boys and when I look into your eyes I can see that little sparkle that lets me know what you'd be willing to do deep down, should we ever find ourselves alone in the engine room.
ETA: Oh, and I guess this one WAS a direct criticism of you, personally. But you kind of forced my hand on that, so I suppose I'll find a way to deal with the guilt.
I never said you weren't free to express your opinion, that is other people's job, I was merely pointing out that in doing so you weren't really contributing to the discussion in a practical way. Happily as this has dragged on I am not contributing to the original discussion in a meaningful way either, so touche' on that point.
Perhaps I was a bit vague originally, but the clueful DO have some idea what the price on a rifle Frank would build as a Hide Edition would be, but to be fair PM me your address and if he announces a 22LR trainer for anything less that $1000 I will mail you a box of Dunkin Donuts by way of apology.
You can ask anyone, I'm definitely a jerk. But your type likes us bad boys and when I look into your eyes I can see that little sparkle that lets me know what you'd be willing to do deep down, should we ever find ourselves alone in the engine room.
ETA: Oh, and I guess this one WAS a direct criticism of you, personally. But you kind of forced my hand on that, so I suppose I'll find a way to deal with the guilt.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Ratbert said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm definitely a jerk</div></div>
Ratbert said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when I look into your eyes I can see that little sparkle that lets me know what you'd be willing to do deep down, should we ever find ourselves alone in the engine room. </div></div>
Who but a Mind reading Mall Ninja would claim to know what a guy on the internet, he never met, was thinking or what he would do?
Who would try and keep people from having input into a public forum? Or discounting their input because they may not be of the same financial status?
Who thinks it's anybody's job to keep people from expressing an opinion?
Ratbert does:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never said you weren't free to express your opinion, <span style="font-weight: bold">that is other people's job,</span></div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was merely pointing out that in doing so you weren't really contributing to the discussion in a practical way. </div></div>
Is that your job to <span style="font-weight: bold">judge other people?</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But your type likes us bad boys and when I look into your eyes I can see </div></div>
Excuse me: MY TYPE!
I'm amazed that this exchange actually comes from a Hide member! I've been a member for a year this month and have seen nothing but solid guys.
wishing you could "look into my eyes"
Seekers
Ratbert said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm definitely a jerk</div></div>
Ratbert said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when I look into your eyes I can see that little sparkle that lets me know what you'd be willing to do deep down, should we ever find ourselves alone in the engine room. </div></div>
Who but a Mind reading Mall Ninja would claim to know what a guy on the internet, he never met, was thinking or what he would do?
Who would try and keep people from having input into a public forum? Or discounting their input because they may not be of the same financial status?
Who thinks it's anybody's job to keep people from expressing an opinion?
Ratbert does:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never said you weren't free to express your opinion, <span style="font-weight: bold">that is other people's job,</span></div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I was merely pointing out that in doing so you weren't really contributing to the discussion in a practical way. </div></div>
Is that your job to <span style="font-weight: bold">judge other people?</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But your type likes us bad boys and when I look into your eyes I can see </div></div>
Excuse me: MY TYPE!
I'm amazed that this exchange actually comes from a Hide member! I've been a member for a year this month and have seen nothing but solid guys.
wishing you could "look into my eyes"
Seekers
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Back on topic, everyone wants a 22LR trainer. The big difference is what do people see as the price point for a rig like that. I'm customizing my 10/22 right now simply because I already own it, and I can do that work myself with ordered parts. The issue with a 22LR trainer may be that some people would be willing to plop down $1200 for one, some for a full custom $2k build, and other dudes are going to hold their cash because they can't justify that much for a rimfire. Just saying.
And yeah, I wish I'd been around for the Volkmann 1911s. Those pistols are bad ass. Always a day late, and at least a dollar short...
Back on topic, everyone wants a 22LR trainer. The big difference is what do people see as the price point for a rig like that. I'm customizing my 10/22 right now simply because I already own it, and I can do that work myself with ordered parts. The issue with a 22LR trainer may be that some people would be willing to plop down $1200 for one, some for a full custom $2k build, and other dudes are going to hold their cash because they can't justify that much for a rimfire. Just saying.
And yeah, I wish I'd been around for the Volkmann 1911s. Those pistols are bad ass. Always a day late, and at least a dollar short...
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
I thought one of the purposes of a 22 trainer was to allow more trigger time due to the savings in ammo. If the cost of the trainer is $2k, well you can buy/reload a lot of ammo for $2000 so it seems to defeat that purpose.
I also know that a cheap trainer wouldn't work because to train properly you need something that is similar to what you normally use. That's what I ran into when I was training my boys, a poor trigger that wasn't an accurate representation of their CF rifles. So a compromise of those two would be needed IF those two criteria were important enough to be met.
If not then the 2K build would be a go, if the 22 trainer is decided on at those specs.
Seekers
I thought one of the purposes of a 22 trainer was to allow more trigger time due to the savings in ammo. If the cost of the trainer is $2k, well you can buy/reload a lot of ammo for $2000 so it seems to defeat that purpose.
I also know that a cheap trainer wouldn't work because to train properly you need something that is similar to what you normally use. That's what I ran into when I was training my boys, a poor trigger that wasn't an accurate representation of their CF rifles. So a compromise of those two would be needed IF those two criteria were important enough to be met.
If not then the 2K build would be a go, if the 22 trainer is decided on at those specs.
Seekers
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Jered ran a group buy last year for the cheapest and most practical 22LR trainer option available, it priced out at right around $1500 minimum + options. At the time there were plenty of people who were enthusiastically "in for one" but when it came time to write checks suddenly the list dwindled so low that we were in danger of even having enough orders to qualify production of the mold from Manners. So suffice to say that the pool of people willing to step up and order a group build 22LR trainer was not large to begin with and was pretty sufficiently fulfilled only a year ago. Since then I've seen a couple of the Sako builds come up for sale on the forum and generally they have not sold quickly so I am not optimistic that there has been a resurgence of new customers. You need a minimum number of orders to make a Hide Edition worth the trouble or have any real meaning and everyone keeps going on about how money is tight. In a tight economy, a $1500+ rimfire with little to no competition purpose really seems like an extravagant luxury, don't you think? Probably not very many people out there still genuinely looking to pick one of those up. However, thick or thin, there are always people looking for a new competition center-fire.
BTW, you'll find out who's job it is to police our opinions when neither of us can log in anymore. As for my judgement, I do that for free simply to keep the mind limber. I get so little opportunity to judge since I gave up religion I need to practice or I fear my skills will atrophy. I wish you wouldn't act so coy, people will think you're just using me for my body.
Jered ran a group buy last year for the cheapest and most practical 22LR trainer option available, it priced out at right around $1500 minimum + options. At the time there were plenty of people who were enthusiastically "in for one" but when it came time to write checks suddenly the list dwindled so low that we were in danger of even having enough orders to qualify production of the mold from Manners. So suffice to say that the pool of people willing to step up and order a group build 22LR trainer was not large to begin with and was pretty sufficiently fulfilled only a year ago. Since then I've seen a couple of the Sako builds come up for sale on the forum and generally they have not sold quickly so I am not optimistic that there has been a resurgence of new customers. You need a minimum number of orders to make a Hide Edition worth the trouble or have any real meaning and everyone keeps going on about how money is tight. In a tight economy, a $1500+ rimfire with little to no competition purpose really seems like an extravagant luxury, don't you think? Probably not very many people out there still genuinely looking to pick one of those up. However, thick or thin, there are always people looking for a new competition center-fire.
BTW, you'll find out who's job it is to police our opinions when neither of us can log in anymore. As for my judgement, I do that for free simply to keep the mind limber. I get so little opportunity to judge since I gave up religion I need to practice or I fear my skills will atrophy. I wish you wouldn't act so coy, people will think you're just using me for my body.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Hey folks, I see 'bert's point and respect it, and I believe the rest of us should do likewise. There's your 'haves' and 'havenots', and I'm one of the 'haves'. I have a need to find a way to do the good things we all support here, and I am also blessed with an income that is largely based on Social Security Disability. I believe we've all read about that somewhere. And thank you all for your contributions, and BTW, I made mine too; back when I was earning roughly 4 times what I 'pull down' now.
Most of you who've been here awhile know I've made a pretty consistent pitch for getting the most from factory rifles. It's all very well and good to covet green grass and all, but maybe a lot of us would do as well, or better, by simply earning how to shoot the rifles we already have, and better.
The builders serve a valid and righteous purpose. Some here <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> shoot the rifles they already have, and can legitimately prosper from a rifle built to custom specification. These people need good builders.
Other people maybe can't shoot what they've got, but think they not only can, they think they can do so well they also need good builders. Well who the heck am I to disagree? It's a free world, and money talks (and these folks' money subsidizes the builds of the others...). There is <span style="font-style: italic">nothing</span> wrong with this picture, and if you think there is, we are talking different arguments.
But this argument is exclusive of means the likes of which I luxuriate within. My luxuries are many and satisfying, and all have one common denominator, a pretty inexpensive one. Hey, I'm happy, I'm fulfilled, I have no petty envies. And I honestly think I'm one of those guys who are still adequately challenged by the capacities of a decent factory rifle. The only reason I'm talking about grouping up on a factory 'spec rifle' at all is because it allows one the means to spec out something and also provide a provider with a worthwhile niche market to justify catering to that particular spec. Its really very little different from what a smaller provider does for a 'reguler' group buy.
<span style="font-style: italic">Except;</span> this niche substitutes potentially greater numbers for higher cost, and may very well access a new, and maybe bigger, niche. If it does, it offers the newer shooter entre to higher performance, and in so doing, preps them for the next, higher, more specialized niches that the premium builders can satisfy. In essence it prepares the fallow field for its new productivity, where seeds of excellence can grow and prosper.
Not an as alternative, rather as a complement.
Greg
Hey folks, I see 'bert's point and respect it, and I believe the rest of us should do likewise. There's your 'haves' and 'havenots', and I'm one of the 'haves'. I have a need to find a way to do the good things we all support here, and I am also blessed with an income that is largely based on Social Security Disability. I believe we've all read about that somewhere. And thank you all for your contributions, and BTW, I made mine too; back when I was earning roughly 4 times what I 'pull down' now.
Most of you who've been here awhile know I've made a pretty consistent pitch for getting the most from factory rifles. It's all very well and good to covet green grass and all, but maybe a lot of us would do as well, or better, by simply earning how to shoot the rifles we already have, and better.
The builders serve a valid and righteous purpose. Some here <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> shoot the rifles they already have, and can legitimately prosper from a rifle built to custom specification. These people need good builders.
Other people maybe can't shoot what they've got, but think they not only can, they think they can do so well they also need good builders. Well who the heck am I to disagree? It's a free world, and money talks (and these folks' money subsidizes the builds of the others...). There is <span style="font-style: italic">nothing</span> wrong with this picture, and if you think there is, we are talking different arguments.
But this argument is exclusive of means the likes of which I luxuriate within. My luxuries are many and satisfying, and all have one common denominator, a pretty inexpensive one. Hey, I'm happy, I'm fulfilled, I have no petty envies. And I honestly think I'm one of those guys who are still adequately challenged by the capacities of a decent factory rifle. The only reason I'm talking about grouping up on a factory 'spec rifle' at all is because it allows one the means to spec out something and also provide a provider with a worthwhile niche market to justify catering to that particular spec. Its really very little different from what a smaller provider does for a 'reguler' group buy.
<span style="font-style: italic">Except;</span> this niche substitutes potentially greater numbers for higher cost, and may very well access a new, and maybe bigger, niche. If it does, it offers the newer shooter entre to higher performance, and in so doing, preps them for the next, higher, more specialized niches that the premium builders can satisfy. In essence it prepares the fallow field for its new productivity, where seeds of excellence can grow and prosper.
Not an as alternative, rather as a complement.
Greg
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Well put Greg. I am only 22, and am not blessed with a large income. 1,500 for a 22 trainer is out of my price range entirely. I currently have that much put into my 308.
Whatever the 2010 or 2011 build is, I am sure it will be fantastic and extraordinarily out of my price range.
Hey, we all like to look at what we can't have right?
Well put Greg. I am only 22, and am not blessed with a large income. 1,500 for a 22 trainer is out of my price range entirely. I currently have that much put into my 308.
Whatever the 2010 or 2011 build is, I am sure it will be fantastic and extraordinarily out of my price range.
Hey, we all like to look at what we can't have right?
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Greg I appreciate your position on factory rifles and agree for the most part. Whenever I have a friend express interest into joining this sport I always do my best to impress upon them not to spend more than strictly necessary to outfit a PSS with moderate quality optics. Certainly the gains in spending 2 to 3 times as much for a rifle are in long term reliability, only marginal increases in practical accuracy, and customer preference. A new or casual shooter should concern themselves with short term expenditures in a sport they may or may not take to and have no basis by which to express any informed preference.
What I'm curious to know, though, is where are you expecting to achieve any significant savings on a group buy for a factory rifle. Factories already produce orders of magnitude more rifles than any group buy would garner and margins for resale are so low that even if we could get distributer pricing I can't see how any individual would save very much on the whole, nor would it really be any different than anything anyone could just run down to BassPro and get on their own. Or perhaps you had some larger plan that I didn't pick up on? I personally don't agree that such a project would be appropriate for a Hide Edition rifle (not that my opinion changes anything) but if you did have a larger plan I would be interested to hear it out as a "value shooters" package project could certainly have merit if you've found a way to inject value into the proposition.
Greg I appreciate your position on factory rifles and agree for the most part. Whenever I have a friend express interest into joining this sport I always do my best to impress upon them not to spend more than strictly necessary to outfit a PSS with moderate quality optics. Certainly the gains in spending 2 to 3 times as much for a rifle are in long term reliability, only marginal increases in practical accuracy, and customer preference. A new or casual shooter should concern themselves with short term expenditures in a sport they may or may not take to and have no basis by which to express any informed preference.
What I'm curious to know, though, is where are you expecting to achieve any significant savings on a group buy for a factory rifle. Factories already produce orders of magnitude more rifles than any group buy would garner and margins for resale are so low that even if we could get distributer pricing I can't see how any individual would save very much on the whole, nor would it really be any different than anything anyone could just run down to BassPro and get on their own. Or perhaps you had some larger plan that I didn't pick up on? I personally don't agree that such a project would be appropriate for a Hide Edition rifle (not that my opinion changes anything) but if you did have a larger plan I would be interested to hear it out as a "value shooters" package project could certainly have merit if you've found a way to inject value into the proposition.
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Barreled receiver?
This would get a .22 trainer into all's hands that wanted one, you could then outfit with any stock you wanted that fit you as a trainer. Maybe the new skunk, so same footprint as Rem 700, decent barrel, trigger (yes, or maybe you could custom that as well). Then all would have basic trainer to be outfitted as they wish and for a pretty good cost.
Just thinking,
Chad
Barreled receiver?
This would get a .22 trainer into all's hands that wanted one, you could then outfit with any stock you wanted that fit you as a trainer. Maybe the new skunk, so same footprint as Rem 700, decent barrel, trigger (yes, or maybe you could custom that as well). Then all would have basic trainer to be outfitted as they wish and for a pretty good cost.
Just thinking,
Chad
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
Are you suggesting the as-yet vaporware Stiller, or has someone else come out with a Rem700 footprint rimfire action? I believe the Stiller was originally going to cost somewhere between $800-$1000 for action only.
Anyone who wants to build a 22LR trainer just needs to buy a Sako quad off of gunbroker and put in an order with Tom for a Manners T4 inlet for the Sako. Doesn't really need more than a skim bed (no pillars) and you're off to the races. Order a drop-in Lilja match barrel for it if you have the $$$ or just shoot the factory barrel if you're happy with it. None of this requires a group buy now that Tom has the molds setup and the Sako T4 is a normal product. USO (and possibly a couple other people now) makes a scope base for it and if there are any left you can even order real bottom metal for it (though I forget from whom, exactly)
Are you suggesting the as-yet vaporware Stiller, or has someone else come out with a Rem700 footprint rimfire action? I believe the Stiller was originally going to cost somewhere between $800-$1000 for action only.
Anyone who wants to build a 22LR trainer just needs to buy a Sako quad off of gunbroker and put in an order with Tom for a Manners T4 inlet for the Sako. Doesn't really need more than a skim bed (no pillars) and you're off to the races. Order a drop-in Lilja match barrel for it if you have the $$$ or just shoot the factory barrel if you're happy with it. None of this requires a group buy now that Tom has the molds setup and the Sako T4 is a normal product. USO (and possibly a couple other people now) makes a scope base for it and if there are any left you can even order real bottom metal for it (though I forget from whom, exactly)
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For all of you 22 trainer yappers, there's one in the for sale section. Let's see how fast it sells!!! </div></div>
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1933551&gonew=1#UNREAD
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For all of you 22 trainer yappers, there's one in the for sale section. Let's see how fast it sells!!! </div></div>
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1933551&gonew=1#UNREAD
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
OK; How to make a savings?
Producers seldom sell direct to individual customers or even to retailers. The main bulk of their production runs are direct responses to distributers' orders. There's also bound to be a price break to the distributer. The point here is to garner enough commitments to a particular spec, I offer one below, to functionally mimic a distributer's order, at a commensurate break. This is the way, I believe, those 'Cabelas Specials' by Savage came about. I don't want to make any conjecture about Frank's business, i.e. anything involving the site name, but lets be concise. The site has clout.
OK; why not run down, etc.?
Well that's because we could get a particular spec; one that's not offered on Savage's site. To whit, I think this could be attractive to our members, but I'm not aware of a production model that conforms to this configuration.
I think something based on the Savage 111 Long Range Hunter, chambered .270, .280, .30-'06, and .35Whelen, with a factory DM and a Camo finish added, could come right out of the Savage factory, complete with sloped base, and maybe still make an under $1500 price point. Add a nicely, similarly configured MKII .22LR, ask $2K, and we've just provided a Precision Shooter's beginner foundation setup.
I mean, just how danged many times have we all read the newbie's lament, "How do I start, etc."? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to say, "Hey, we have just your ticket, Grasshopper, etc.".
I think it's a package the site could be proud to have helped arrange.
Greg
OK; How to make a savings?
Producers seldom sell direct to individual customers or even to retailers. The main bulk of their production runs are direct responses to distributers' orders. There's also bound to be a price break to the distributer. The point here is to garner enough commitments to a particular spec, I offer one below, to functionally mimic a distributer's order, at a commensurate break. This is the way, I believe, those 'Cabelas Specials' by Savage came about. I don't want to make any conjecture about Frank's business, i.e. anything involving the site name, but lets be concise. The site has clout.
OK; why not run down, etc.?
Well that's because we could get a particular spec; one that's not offered on Savage's site. To whit, I think this could be attractive to our members, but I'm not aware of a production model that conforms to this configuration.
I think something based on the Savage 111 Long Range Hunter, chambered .270, .280, .30-'06, and .35Whelen, with a factory DM and a Camo finish added, could come right out of the Savage factory, complete with sloped base, and maybe still make an under $1500 price point. Add a nicely, similarly configured MKII .22LR, ask $2K, and we've just provided a Precision Shooter's beginner foundation setup.
I mean, just how danged many times have we all read the newbie's lament, "How do I start, etc."? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to say, "Hey, we have just your ticket, Grasshopper, etc.".
I think it's a package the site could be proud to have helped arrange.
Greg
Re: 2010 Snipers Hide Rifle Build
I feel your vision, I guess I am just pessimistic about it actually happening. Somebody somewhere is going to have to be FFL distributer and they're going to want their cut. I'm also not convinced that even if we manage to find a philanthropic FFL who ordered/transferred these at cost that there is that much margin to cheer about.
Don't take this the wrong way but I also think your spec is way out of line with what people are going to want, regardless if it's the best medicine for them or not. All the cool kids are buying short action 308's and 6.5's these days. Drop a 270 on someone and they're forever going to be odd-man-out at classes, competitions, group-buys, and anything else. That's not really best for making someone feel like they made a good purchase when the only basis by which they have to judge is look around and see that nearly EVERYONE else has something completely different. Also Savage doesn't currently offer an AI compatible DM (last I checked) so that's something either you'll have to get them to develop or else you're saddling the new user with their POS proprietary DM that the magazines for will be useless if/when they ever want to upgrade to something a bit more standard. In general I'm against telling new users to buy anything that will basically be tossed should they want to come up to the next level. That's why I like the R700 PSS so much, it's basically the small-block v8 of rifle actions and anything on there they want to replace is a very small percentage of the initial investment and the bulk of the aftermarket industry is built around supplying R700 compatible alternatives for. So yes, you've listed a spec not currently available from the factory, but I would argue that's because that's not what people want. A varmint taper SA 308 can be had and that is probably the only thing that legitimately has a chance as a "welcome to precision shooting" setup, IMHO.
However, you could probably get a FN SPR in an A5 stock for about the cost you're thinking of. All we'd need is to add a $75 EGW base to each one and they'd be off to the races. The ASC rigs we're going to be using this fall are based on that and they, including LOP/Comb adjustment, sling and a ST-10 ergo/erek/illum are priced right around $3200. I don't know what kind of discounts went into all of that or what percentage is the USO but it seems like a heck of a deal for a top of the line stock and factory rifle with match chamber. I know I won't be buying my assigned rig, though, so perhaps someone here will get the chance to pick it up.
I feel your vision, I guess I am just pessimistic about it actually happening. Somebody somewhere is going to have to be FFL distributer and they're going to want their cut. I'm also not convinced that even if we manage to find a philanthropic FFL who ordered/transferred these at cost that there is that much margin to cheer about.
Don't take this the wrong way but I also think your spec is way out of line with what people are going to want, regardless if it's the best medicine for them or not. All the cool kids are buying short action 308's and 6.5's these days. Drop a 270 on someone and they're forever going to be odd-man-out at classes, competitions, group-buys, and anything else. That's not really best for making someone feel like they made a good purchase when the only basis by which they have to judge is look around and see that nearly EVERYONE else has something completely different. Also Savage doesn't currently offer an AI compatible DM (last I checked) so that's something either you'll have to get them to develop or else you're saddling the new user with their POS proprietary DM that the magazines for will be useless if/when they ever want to upgrade to something a bit more standard. In general I'm against telling new users to buy anything that will basically be tossed should they want to come up to the next level. That's why I like the R700 PSS so much, it's basically the small-block v8 of rifle actions and anything on there they want to replace is a very small percentage of the initial investment and the bulk of the aftermarket industry is built around supplying R700 compatible alternatives for. So yes, you've listed a spec not currently available from the factory, but I would argue that's because that's not what people want. A varmint taper SA 308 can be had and that is probably the only thing that legitimately has a chance as a "welcome to precision shooting" setup, IMHO.
However, you could probably get a FN SPR in an A5 stock for about the cost you're thinking of. All we'd need is to add a $75 EGW base to each one and they'd be off to the races. The ASC rigs we're going to be using this fall are based on that and they, including LOP/Comb adjustment, sling and a ST-10 ergo/erek/illum are priced right around $3200. I don't know what kind of discounts went into all of that or what percentage is the USO but it seems like a heck of a deal for a top of the line stock and factory rifle with match chamber. I know I won't be buying my assigned rig, though, so perhaps someone here will get the chance to pick it up.
