2020 PRS Finale info

[_Windrider_]

Growth is impacted,

The numbers are not what is claimed, especially when you can get someone to sign up but not shoot. There are enough people out there who will support you, so getting a couple hundred who don't shoot to pay a minor fee is easy, especially if they were prior students.

The growth is what we see on the streets, how the matches change, what investment is being put back into the product, this growth is stalled.

This was the scam that caused the last owner to fold up and give it away essentially. He was fooled by all the talk, bought the Series for 5x more money than it was worth, and then found out he bought an illusion. The non Functioning site and weak ass list of shooters, most of who won't shoot anyway. Why he gave it away, not worth the effort. The biggest growth is the sister series overseas, not in the US.

You have to invest in your company, you have to invest in what works, not just for your own range but for the series. Nascar invests in tracks they don't own too because it's about the product. Nascar manages the drivers, Nascar writes the rules and then enforces them across all, big teams don't get a pass because of their spending habits. They want the Product to be consistent and the product is the race. If a race at their track is awesome and they let the other tracks do whatever, the product will be different.

This is designed to compete with its self, Shannon wants the most matches, sponsors, and training possible at his range, the other ranges in the series are competing with him. In fact, they use it as a tactic, you dont' want to play by PRS rules, we'll put as many PRS matches on the same weekend we can to suppress your numbers. He is well known for his strong-arm tactics. In terms of business, it works by accident, if you want to call this working. No business that changes hands 5 times in as many years can be considered successful. It was musical chairs with a cost attached.

Competition Dynamics,
Riflemans Team Challenge
NRL
Border Wars
Unaffiliated Matches or local comps

There are other groups out there, ones where this kind of drama is few and far between.

dont forget the guardian series of matches. Low key., fun and supports a great cause.

 

[Lowlight]

Not true,

there doesn't have to be drama, we had next to no drama before the PRS Appeared, any comments stating drama should be expected is stupid and a bold ass lie

You don't need the drama and the drama absolutely hurts the sport

There are PLENTY OF CHOICES, you don't have to support a drama-filled series when you can attend a match without it.

These problems are constantly recurring in one form or another... why do you think there is no SH Team, I would totally support a team if this was worth it, it's not

Stop lying to people, stop telling them this is normal, it's not it's created by design to support their friends and those who pay them, the FACT RUGER is the new Sponsor for 2021 proves it.

Don't listen to the LIARS, you can learn just as much somewhere else, vote with your WALLET, these guys don't want you leaving because you fund their games. They are taking the money from Peter and giving it to Paul

 

[ma smith]

"fun" is a two edge sword since it means different things to differnt people

The Fun Scale

I first heard about the Fun Scale from my friend Peter Haeussler back in 2001, as we bushwhacked through thick Alaskan Devil’s Club en route to cold beers on his sailboat. I’d just come out of the …

kellycordes.com

 

[99106]

I felt compelled to read this thread based on Frank's podcast and damn if it isn't entertaining. I competed in several shooting disciplines in the 90s and rarely if ever saw drama.. The only reason it is normal now is because there are way more drama queens today because everyone has been taught they should be in touch with their feelings and everyone gets a ribbon movement. You may not be able to stop all of it but a well planned and consistently executed format would allow MDs and ROs to shutdown most of the bitching.

Safety is safety no matter what your name is. You violate any basic principles, ad, nd, dropped gun, sweeping equals automatic dq. Gamers are going to game and while its entertaining, it doesnt bring any good. The fewer the rules, the easier to manage expectations but they have to be clear and simple. If you start dividing based on hardware you will end up with 20 divisions just to make people happy just like Steel Challenge or USPSA. If the cost is reasonable people will shoot but only if it does not get to be boring. You need memorable stages and they need to be accommodating for all body heights. Same thing someone smarter than me has said repeatedly.

As for the shoot a national match why? Will you learn something? Sure, but will what you learn benefit you? Take the money and spend it on dedicated TRAINING with a reputable company relative to what you want to learn. #Votewithyourmoney! That way you exponentially increase your chances of successfully learning the desired skill. Practice it, shoot a few local matches then go back and repeat training or take from another company for a different perspective. Chances are you will need tweaking after you play the game for a while and worst case you will get confirmation you are doing it right. Better yet, you will probably need all of your money to just buy ammo at this rate.

If you want it as an experience to iust say I shot one then fine, go shoot a national. There isn't a guarantee you still won't be that guy after taking an appropriate training class and then going. However at least if you have a good foundation maybe it would not be a total train wreck and you could actually enjoy shooting it.

I personally cannot see spending that kind of money just to see what happens. Yes I have done it and probably would do it again if I was same age, but not now. PRS ain't getting a dime from me ever. They have created a culture of douchery. What does it represent when you have a local match on a farm in rural america, everyone in blue jeans and t shirts except the one ass that shows up in their jersey and finishes at the bottom of the pack. I see the point in stripping his title based on some stupid rule, but does anyone here really believe that gun gave him the win? Giving it to a guy with a beta unit is BS and purely a strategic move as demonstrated by the pontificated PRS response to the great lies of social media. Maybe Ruger should have chosen a better shooter.

 

[VaderRubiconJK]

From reading through this thread and seeing what’s been posted by the man who was disqualified, it seems to support the long heard rumours of nepotism from the PRS to their elite.
Personally in reading the rules, both shooters should have been DQ’d or both shooters should have finished with their earned points.
I called our distributor yesterday looking for info on the new ruger rifle, yes it’s on the website, yes they are available on back order, they will not be available for shipping until mid feb or early March. It just sounds like the PRS is playing to their sponsor and in doing so allowing one competitor aligned with that company to get ahead by nefarious means.
Reminds me of nascar or drag racing where factory sponsored drivers got new “production” cars before anyone else, special treatment and favourable rulings bc they are part of the old boys clubs.

Personally I’d rather not participate in a series that perpetuates a culture like that, especially with the amount of money invested and the cost associated with big matches.

Really believe the PRS could be a great series, if it wasn’t for the douchery at the upper levels calling all the shots.

 

[kthomas]

As a newish shooter I started this thread because of a genuine interest in the year end best of the best competition. Unfortunately it seems it has devolved into a pro wrestling like fiasco for the production class. I get it... nothing but a money grab. I signed up for my first PRS national event in Navasota but now wonder if I really want to. I signed up because I wanted to get better and compete. The reality is I do not have a chance of winning but I definitely will get better and learn from shooters that are much better than me. I wonder if I would be better off continuing with local matches and learning from some national level local competitors. I can shoot 6 to 8 local matches for the cost of one national match put on by PRS. Curious where it is all headed......

That match is ran by great people, and a really good group of people shoot that match.

Enjoy the match, don't worry about any potential drama. Drama is easy to avoid, and you are guaranteed to have a good time if you go in with the right mindset.

And you definitely need to make a routine of shooting the monthly club matches at Navasota if you are in the area. I miss shooting there.

 

[Entropicitis]

One thing I hope folks don't forget is that while the finale had drama, Justin Watts put on a great match in the harshest of circumstances. Fouled Bore Precision is a great range.

 

[lte82]

I signed up for my first PRS national event in Navasota but now wonder if I really want to.

It's easy to be jaded by all of the drama talk online. Don't be. I promise you'll have a good time there.

 

[Lowlight]

It's not just talk online

The online talk is after the fact, these things are happening and people are letting them get away with it.

The fact the shooters are not taxed in any way is not an online thing

The prize table drama is not online

The NDs being overlooked is not online

All this false, these things are happening. You pay the same as everyone else, but clearly, there is a pecking order, if you fall outside the circle you lose, if you sponsor or operate inside the circle you win.

We are not discussing online drama, we are discussing Match Drama online.

You vote with your wallet, and the more you point this stuff the more people will speak up when it happens to them. This is not changing, nothing is going away and the Inmates know they can manipulate the system so they will and do it all the time.

To defend this behavior is to condone it, which why it continues to grow.

 

[seansmd]

I listened to the Just F'in send it podcast, shooters shooting and testing the stage obstacles on Friday, measuring equipment, how to run, etc. I'm with @Jabot above the reason I shoot matches is to see watch and learn from other shooters. Doing it with friends and like minded folks is why it's fun. I haven't been to a 2 day yet, wand none of this would change that, going and having fun at a 2 day ukd or field match would be fun.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I listened to the Just F'in send it podcast, shooters shooting and testing the stage obstacles on Friday, measuring equipment, how to run, etc. I'm with @Jabot above the reason I shoot matches is to see watch and learn from other shooters. Doing it with friends and like minded folks is why it's fun. I haven't been to a 2 day yet, wand none of this would change that, going and having fun at a 2 day ukd or field match would be fun.

Yup. When Jeff called me Friday afternoon before day 1 and told me that the shooters had access to the stages, could shoot the stages, could take notes on the stages, etc., i couldn't believe it. Ive never even heard about that before a Guardian match or 1 day match, much less a 2 day national match, and even more so, the god damn season finale. Boggled my mind. There was a reason that the AG cup forced shooters to be blind to each stage before shooting. This was the exact opposite. The week/day before a national season finale, the stages should be treated like Area 51. Nobody is going in that bitch until its time to shoot for score.

 

[lte82]

Yup. When Jeff called me Friday afternoon before day 1 and told me that the shooters had access to the stages, could shoot the stages, could take notes on the stages, etc., i couldn't believe it. Ive never even heard about that before a Guardian match or 1 day match, much less a 2 day national match, and even more so, the god damn season finale. Boggled my mind. There was a reason that the AG cup forced shooters to be blind to each stage before shooting. This was the exact opposite. The week/day before a national season finale, the stages should be treated like Area 51. Nobody is going in that bitch until its time to shoot for score.

It didn't help. The guy that won didn't shoot it the day before LOL.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

It didn't help. The guy that won didn't shoot it the day before LOL.

Thats awesome. Im glad AO didnt. Shows he earned that shit. Point being, it shouldn't have been allowed, especially with the it being the finale.

 

[b6graham]

Thats awesome. Im glad AO didnt. Shows he earned that shit. Point being, it shouldn't have been allowed, especially with the it being the finale.

i don't think it should be allowed ever

same goes for sharing wind calls

 

[BLKWLFK9]

i don't think it should be allowed ever

same goes for sharing wind calls

I dont think an MD could effectively enforce sharing of wind calls due to the shooters being "unsupervised" if you will, while a shooter is on the stage. All the other shooters could be talking ab anything and everything and nothing would change. Allowing shooters on the COF prior to day 1 is not even debatable. Thats silly.

 

[b6graham]

I dont think an MD could effectively enforce sharing of wind calls due to the shooters being "unsupervised" if you will, while a shooter is on the stage. All the other shooters could be talking ab anything and everything and nothing would change. Allowing shooters on the COF prior to day 1 is not even debatable. Thats silly.

it's more of a self policing thing.

yeah people often watch first shooter and follow that pattern then get pissed when someone in a diferent squad is smarter

sort of like that loud 'man hes missing way left' loud talking that happens with guys on glass watching

 

[BLKWLFK9]

it's more of a self policing thing.

yeah people often watch first shooter and follow that pattern then get pissed when someone in a diferent squad is smarter

sort of like that loud 'man hes missing way left' loud talking that happens with guys on glass watching

oh, sharing windcalls with the current shooter is a big no no, but when a shooter walks off a stage that he just cleaned, people inundate him with questions. happens every match at almost every stage.

 

[nfoley]

K&M allows shooting off a lot of the props, as well as practicing on movers before match.

Maybe the idea is to give everyone access so no one could argue ‘well of course he shot better, it’s his home range?’ A lot of ranges don’t change props, just not practical.

 

[Rob01]

it's more of a self policing thing.

yeah people often watch first shooter and follow that pattern then get pissed when someone in a diferent squad is smarter

sort of like that loud 'man hes missing way left' loud talking that happens with guys on glass watching

Will never happen. Will always be stuff like that. Years back when the PRS was in the womb but coming and the "Teams" started popping up there was one team that was using their phones to pass info from stage to stage. Even stages that were supposed to be blind. Just part of the game.

 

[b6graham]

oh i know it happens and always will. at least in the big two leagues where its easy

 

[sleeplz]

I promise a guy running a $4500 stock AI-AT is at a much bigger disadvantage than an mpa or gap production rifle.

Is it because AT's are harder to run in a competitive environment, due to heavier trigger and different balance point?

 

[ClamHammer747]

Sure there is plenty of drama in this sport, but I haven't ever competed in anything that didn't have drama at the end of the day.
Shooting it still fun!
I started shooting production this year because it seemed like a great way to get started. I probably should move up to "open" now but I am feeling slightly motivated to stay in the Production division.

Shoot Straight
Matt Alwine

Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[NoLegs24]

It's easy to be jaded by all of the drama talk online. Don't be. I promise you'll have a good time there.

It didn't help. The guy that won didn't shoot it the day before LOL.

Can you leave?!
I’m over here trying to enjoy my
Let the bashing commence!!

 

[Lowlight]

I guess they are going into Forum mode...

they are adding a competing forum, LOL wonder if it will be like in the past, when Mark Larue used to answer stuff against here on AR15. So if you want to reply you'll have to go there, as they discuss what is discussed here.

Bold Plan Cotton, LOL

 

[Rob01]

And others make their own forums and when you disagree with them they ban you. LOL

 

[kthomas]

At least they can live in their own cozy echo chamber, and ignore the reality that surrounds them.

 

[Lowlight]

I have a serious question,

Aside from the Privilege of being labeled a PRS Match, what do the individual match directors get in return for hosting a PRS Match ?

Do they make any PRS Revenue, or just what they make the day of the match ? Once your match is over, do they just say thanks for the memories, or at the end you get a kick back ? Like a Nascar track shares in part of these sponsor packages. They get access to the money made in the telecast, TV rights are split. They track minutes of driver and sponsor exposure, there are multiple metrics used to manage payouts.

Are you just paying (you have to pay per shooter to upload a score) for the privilege to host a match, or do you get something at the end of the year ? Is there any revenue sharing with the guys who make the series what it is ? You do the work, you host the matches that make up the series... are you sharing in the sponsorship money and, I don't mean the prizes that are secured I mean money for the MD ?

If there is 25 matches, and they bring in $50k for a top sponsor, do those guys split a percentage ? Or does all money move in one direction outside of competitors fees at an individual event. Seems like a lot of work to make someone else look good, on top of paying for the privilege. They are marketing off of the individual event effort, are they paying for it ?

I don't need a number just a yes, we share, no we pay only

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Lol. There is a prs forum?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Lol. There is a prs forum?

It’s sponsored by Ruger. It’s also designed for the every man. The membership fee is $2500 for the forum. But if you use any other forum, you can’t use theirs.

 

[1moaoff]

Lol. There is a prs forum?

I haven't seen one. They use facebook, I don't have a FB acct.

 

[salks]

What a bunch of crap.
Can't wait to see the full page magazine add with Doug holding his Ruger rifle. "2020 PRS production champion*". I am sure there will be an asterisk beside it though and down at the bottom of the page it will read.

*due to the disqualification of another shooter and was also beaten in the finale by a 16 year old girl who does shit the right way.

 

[Dthomas3523]

What a bunch of crap.
Can't wait to see the full page magazine add with Doug holding his Ruger rifle. "2020 PRS production champion*". I am sure there will be an asterisk beside it though and down at the bottom of the page it will read.

*due to the disqualification of another shooter and was also beaten in the finale by a 16 year old girl who does shit the right way.

To be fair, Doug didn’t do anything wrong personally. And both rifles, by the letter/spirit of the rules shouldn’t have been allowed

 

[Rob01]

Would be interesting to know who brought it up and complained about the rifle to begin with and start this ball rolling.

 

[striped1]

Not true,

there doesn't have to be drama, we had next to no drama before the PRS Appeared, any comments stating drama should be expected is stupid and a bold ass lie

You don't need the drama and the drama absolutely hurts the sport

There are PLENTY OF CHOICES, you don't have to support a drama-filled series when you can attend a match without it.

These problems are constantly recurring in one form or another... why do you think there is no SH Team, I would totally support a team if this was worth it, it's not

Stop lying to people, stop telling them this is normal, it's not it's created by design to support their friends and those who pay them, the FACT RUGER is the new Sponsor for 2021 proves it.

Don't listen to the LIARS, you can learn just as much somewhere else, vote with your WALLET, these guys don't want you leaving because you fund their games. They are taking the money from Peter and giving it to Paul

I really wish Frank would tell it like it is or should be and stop sugar-coating every thing.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Would be interesting to know who brought it up and complained about the rifle to begin with and start this ball rolling.

I was told that the grumbling started at the finale banquet that night.

 

[JLP83]

I was told that the grumbling started at the finale banquet that night.

By Doug, Shannon or Ruger?

 

[Mordamer]

By Doug, Shannon or Ruger?

Supposedly it was none of those. Rumor has it that it was other production shooters not including Doug. I don't think Doug or Ruger had anything to do with this. I don't believe for one second that Shannon or any members of the committee took into consideration who was in second place when they made their ruling.

There is just a bunch of people on here who don't even attend PRS matches that want to make more drama out of this than there ever really was. I have been to 15 two day PRS matches in the last 3 years and I have never witnessed 1/10 as much drama as what this thread makes it out to be.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Supposedly it was none of those. Rumor has it that it was other production shooters not including Doug. I don't think Doug or Ruger had anything to do with this. I don't believe for one second that Shannon or any members of the committee took into consideration who was in second place when they made their ruling.

There is just a bunch of people on here who don't even attend PRS matches that want to make more drama out of this than there ever really was. I have been to 15 two day PRS matches in the last 3 years and I have never witnessed 1/10 as much drama as what this thread makes it out to be.

Wait until the PRS owner is telling you as an MD or Range that it’s either them or the other guys.

I can assure you that is 1000% real as I’m dealing with this now with affiliated range I deal with.

And of course there isn’t any drama at the actual match. That requires people being men and publicly complaining. Two years ago at the brawl guys complained behind the scenes about a shooter with physical limitations placing in the top 5. That it’s not fair he got to shoot stages with accommodation.

The drama happens when it’s all said and done and not many are around.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, as the owner and committee, when making a ruling like that, even if 2nd wasn’t the person complaining or the sponsor company, you should perform due diligence an audit the entire thing.

You’re about to hand down a decision that’s going to cause conflict (whether the decision is right or wrong) and that’s going to put you under the microscope. So you should put yourself under microscope before that happens.

When you decide to disqualify a rifle, you better to make sure all the rifles were g2g as that’s going to be the first thing people look at.

So, while the decision may have been correct, there was definitely some missteps along the way. Combined with some sort of drama happening every single year at some point, this is a pattern.

 

[Rob01]

Supposedly it was none of those. Rumor has it that it was other production shooters not including Doug. I don't think Doug or Ruger had anything to do with this. I don't believe for one second that Shannon or any members of the committee took into consideration who was in second place when they made their ruling.

There is just a bunch of people on here who don't even attend PRS matches that want to make more drama out of this than there ever really was. I have been to 15 two day PRS matches in the last 3 years and I have never witnessed 1/10 as much drama as what this thread makes it out to be.

Well maybe if you were the guy who lost his spot to a guy with the same technicality then you might feel different.

 

[AlwineArcher]

Well maybe if you were the guy who lost his spot to a guy with the same technicality then you might feel different.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

By Doug, Shannon or Ruger?

No idea. Some shooters I'd imagine and then it was brought to shanon, would be my guess

 

[Changed]

When I was a new shooter, I would ask for wind calls. Now I watch what happens down range, and make my own calls. I do this in an effort to become better at calling wind.

Now, I will discuss wind with my shooting partner. What we see vs experience. But, I make my own call.

Wind calls are the hardest thing to learn. As such, people ask for them relentlessly.

 

[Raufoss]

When I was a new shooter, I would ask for wind calls. Now I watch what happens down range, and make my own calls. I do this in an effort to become better at calling wind.

Now, I will discuss wind with my shooting partner. What we see vs experience. But, I make my own call.

Wind calls are the hardest thing to learn. As such, people ask for them relentlessly.

People think it’s the most important when they begin. Reality is that you have many other thing to worry about and you ain’t missing because of it mostly. With all the info available on the pad during the stage you have enough info to make a wind call to start with ...then fundamentals get you on target if you where of.

Wind calls based on a entire squad strategy is cancer in matches. That what happen all the time. Even with proper wind calls people still miss , so that prove the point.

 

[B-P-UU]

@AlwineArcher what bullet did you use to not participate in production class?

 

[littlepod]

I've only ever been to one national level match, and never really knew the rules / what to expect. In my squad the overall top place finisher of the match was constantly helping others out, and also getting information at the same time. We were sharing wind calls all day long - sharing wind, ranging, dope. Never knew it was bad form to be sharing, basically being in the squad with the #1 shooter overall helped our entire squad.

 

[Rob01]

It’s not bad form to share data. Part of the game if someone needs help or to help a shooter who is having problems.

 

[Pete B]

I think there is a difference regarding helping someone who is trying to improve/learn the game.....
To someone that is genuinely competing for position.
It is a competition, that should always be one of respect and good humour, as such why not work your own wind call out?
What's the big deal? Exactly, so why ask for a call?
My personal opinion, and I don't ask for wind calls for the reasons stated above.
If you do you share, no drama's either.....

Each to there own.
Pete

 

[b6graham]

I've only ever been to one national level match, and never really knew the rules / what to expect. In my squad the overall top place finisher of the match was constantly helping others out, and also getting information at the same time. We were sharing wind calls all day long - sharing wind, ranging, dope. Never knew it was bad form to be sharing, basically being in the squad with the #1 shooter overall helped our entire squad.

for 90% of shooters yes. being with the top 10% is beneficial as they will almost always help.

what you see at some matches (cough AG cough) is how shooters do when there isnt a squad of 6 Top 10% guys working together the whole day sharing wind and prop strategy

 

[VVhoisJohnGalt]

Sure there is plenty of drama in this sport, but I haven't ever competed in anything that didn't have drama at the end of the day.
Shooting it still fun!
I started shooting production this year because it seemed like a great way to get started. I probably should move up to "open" now but I am feeling slightly motivated to stay in the Production division.

Stay the course, go shoot that 2 day national match!
I shot my first match about 9 months ago, and absolutely got crushed! That match taught me what I needed to work, I went home, started working on those things, and was able to drastically improve for my next match a few weeks later.

Good luck at the match, forget about the drama, and you'll have an awesome time!

Shoot Straight
Matt Alwine

Please stay in production and win it AGAIN next year.

I think you ruffled some feathers. Bummer to be heavily sponsored long time professional shooter jumping into an easy division to notch more “national championships” and get smoked by a rookie shooter. Bahahahaha!


Great shooting this year