- Thread starter vivdav
- Start date
Hi,
Disclaimer--MATCH OUTSIDER.
Are you guys saying that a shooting organization can and has dictated to a privately owned range that they cannot hold another shooting organizations events??
We need every range in the USA holding as many events as possible in order to grow the shooting world as a whole rather than attempting to grow a singular crop.
What a range owner does with HIS facility should damn sure be open to whatever he wants to do with it. Why would any shooting organization think they actually control a range based off "allowing" that range to hold 1 or 2 of their sanctioned events?
Or I am completely missing something here?
Sincerely,
Theis
Disclaimer--MATCH OUTSIDER.
Are you guys saying that a shooting organization can and has dictated to a privately owned range that they cannot hold another shooting organizations events??
We need every range in the USA holding as many events as possible in order to grow the shooting world as a whole rather than attempting to grow a singular crop.
What a range owner does with HIS facility should damn sure be open to whatever he wants to do with it. Why would any shooting organization think they actually control a range based off "allowing" that range to hold 1 or 2 of their sanctioned events?
Or I am completely missing something here?
Sincerely,
Theis
I’m gonna post this pic again. Because it cannot be stressed enough that the rules give this intent, but then allow a $5k setup before accessories in the class with this intent written out.
We all joke about about don’t be poor, this, that, and the other. But allowing a $5k setup is anything but geared towards the people they claim.
We all joke about about don’t be poor, this, that, and the other. But allowing a $5k setup is anything but geared towards the people they claim.
They don’t tell them what to do with a range. But organization A definitely tells them if they host the organization B’s matches it will either greatly reduce or eliminate their chances of holding matches for organization A.
This is mainly geared towards MDs. But many of the MD’s only use a single range or own a range.
This is mostly done via telephone calls and such. Not via public statements. And the story changes depending who they are attempting to intimidate.
Match directors, in this case, is a loose term
The ranges are often just empty locations and not always set up for business. They take spare land or rent a location to host a match. in the best-case scenario, you could hold a new match every month on the property, but often the MDs are doing this as a side hustle. the one a year they do is enough work for them.
Part of the model should be to establish a location that can host monthly matches, then expand that to include the bigger events, the model was not changed from when we only had a handful of matches a year. They never properly scaled it and addressed the standard to host a match. In the beginning, the metric was whether people enjoyed it. Can you host 100 people, do they enjoy what you did, you're in.
MDs should be able to host a match a week in some form or another, whether it be a 1 day, 2 days, whatever, the goal should be to have a stable of MDs who create events that fit your particular rules or model. If they want to host ones that aren't you, they should be allowed to. But then it breeds competition.
it's always been an Old Boys Network, they just force you to be an Old Boy with them, instead of being an independent contractor, or a host of multiple events.
Shannon is hyper-competitive and if you host an event with anyone else, you are competing against him.
The ranges are often just empty locations and not always set up for business. They take spare land or rent a location to host a match. in the best-case scenario, you could hold a new match every month on the property, but often the MDs are doing this as a side hustle. the one a year they do is enough work for them.
Part of the model should be to establish a location that can host monthly matches, then expand that to include the bigger events, the model was not changed from when we only had a handful of matches a year. They never properly scaled it and addressed the standard to host a match. In the beginning, the metric was whether people enjoyed it. Can you host 100 people, do they enjoy what you did, you're in.
MDs should be able to host a match a week in some form or another, whether it be a 1 day, 2 days, whatever, the goal should be to have a stable of MDs who create events that fit your particular rules or model. If they want to host ones that aren't you, they should be allowed to. But then it breeds competition.
it's always been an Old Boys Network, they just force you to be an Old Boy with them, instead of being an independent contractor, or a host of multiple events.
Shannon is hyper-competitive and if you host an event with anyone else, you are competing against him.
Like Dave said, organization A will tell range owner that if they hold a match for organization B, that they will no longer be able to hold sanctioned events for organization A. Just so happens, organization A has the more attended matches.
Its a sad case. There is no monopoly on precision rifle matches but you have 1 or 2 organizations that are trying desperately to create a monopoly on a certain discipline of shooting. This is their attempt at doing so. So far, they've done a pretty good job of creating an illusion of said monopoly.
Having shot USPSA for 15+ years this is new to me. This must be a local rule. None of the matches I have participated in the West, Alaska, and Hawai'i require membership to compete.
Why even have a production class in these high level national matches? There really isn't many "new" shooters taking advantage of it anyway. Why not just let Doug and Ruger hot rod the fuck out of a RPR and compete in Open? That would look killer for Ruger to have Doug hitting top 10 using their rifle as a base, especially against custom builds. It would lend legitimacy to the product even if it's not stock. Nobody keeps these production rifles stock for long.
Look at the Pro/Am's. They seem wildly popular and probably pull in more new shooters than any of the other large 2-day matches. Do more of those, pull in sponsors and exhibitors. Seems they're focused on this one area of income and it seems like a huge pain in the ass.
My concern isn't that they're trying to make money, good for them, they should be making money and furthering the sport. My issue is that they keep getting sucked into this drama that makes the whole sport look bad. How many years go by before they clean it up into something people actually want to participate in.
Look at the Pro/Am's. They seem wildly popular and probably pull in more new shooters than any of the other large 2-day matches. Do more of those, pull in sponsors and exhibitors. Seems they're focused on this one area of income and it seems like a huge pain in the ass.
My concern isn't that they're trying to make money, good for them, they should be making money and furthering the sport. My issue is that they keep getting sucked into this drama that makes the whole sport look bad. How many years go by before they clean it up into something people actually want to participate in.
As @Dthomas3523 said, the best way to limit production is to cap the price on accessories. If you're running a $2.5k rifle but $7k on accessories, it kind of defeats the purpose. Many shooting organizations do this by limiting the amount of "modifications" to a production gun you can have, most modifications are mostly aesthetic or control based (grip tape, for example).
EXACTLY -
Probably already said, but pro-class should be like the AG cup. Pros should not be able to go backward and shoot production class. We are really cannibalizing the market by these programs, not growing them.
This is a complete cluster.
Price cap needs to come wayyy down if you want to use that cap. A cap isn’t the way, but if you want to use it, it’s gotta come down.
The point is to keep new shooters from being outgunned and outglassed.
If it hasn’t already, I’m betting the kahles 624 all of a sudden makes the newly raised $2500 limit on optics.
The reason people don’t shoot production is because you can have a $5k rifle/optic combo. If I’m doing that, I’ll just spend $6k and get exactly what I want.
Anyone who with a straight face says $2500/$2500 is attractive to new shooters either sells a $2500 rifle or optic, or is a liar.
Maybe a combination of price cap, accessory cap, and shooter cap (no previous winners in current or higher class??).
The step must be taken with balance (I have to idea what that is) or you will end up with something like a Revolver division in USPSA, which is underutilized and run by only Masters who want to sandbag the division when they decide to shoot it.
The step must be taken with balance (I have to idea what that is) or you will end up with something like a Revolver division in USPSA, which is underutilized and run by only Masters who want to sandbag the division when they decide to shoot it.
it's magical where the new leopold mark5 5-25 reticle is price wise. somehow all thet R&D time actually made the scope cheaper
I wonder what we'll find out from the NRL hunter competitions. With their Weight Cap I think it makes using a true factory/production rifle more interesting for beginners. Still, not many of them are going to pony up and compete but a weight class does somewhat limit accessories.
yeah out of $200 a scope. looks like the MAP on the new reticle equals MSRP
i haven't seen one way or another whether a plate needs to be mounted on the rifle for weight or just bipod and sling
wouldn't bother meIMHO would be interesting to make people shoot with their ruck on
Per this definition, the rifle is only barrel, trigger, action, stock, and scope. And needs to be attached which would include rings and stuff like trigger pins and such.
Open Class: 24LBS Weight Limit, Anything Else Goes, if they limit calibers like no 338, okay fine, include the 3200fps Max speed.
Limited Class: 19LBS Weight Limit, 26" barrel including aftermarket, Factory Ammo, 3200fps Max
end of the story, there is no reason to limit a scope's cost or limit accessories, you use the final weight limit to fix that.
Open the door to anyone to enter, both classes are then open to anybody within those specs.
You max the weight to include rifle as shot, you can drop a scale at the registration, stand the rifle on the scale, registration assigns your class, simple. heck have the scale at a stage and weight the rifle on a stage prior to shooting it, so you can test max weight during the match, so people can't add stuff later
Limited Class: 19LBS Weight Limit, 26" barrel including aftermarket, Factory Ammo, 3200fps Max
end of the story, there is no reason to limit a scope's cost or limit accessories, you use the final weight limit to fix that.
Open the door to anyone to enter, both classes are then open to anybody within those specs.
You max the weight to include rifle as shot, you can drop a scale at the registration, stand the rifle on the scale, registration assigns your class, simple. heck have the scale at a stage and weight the rifle on a stage prior to shooting it, so you can test max weight during the match, so people can't add stuff later
muzzle brake/can excluded? thats super gamey to do though and good luck with zero
I think it’s something that needs addressing.
Otherwise it will be some shit like this production class ruling.
But I don’t see anything wrong with say weighing rifle that has tbac ultra 7. Then subtracting the listed weight of the can.
What people dont' realize is,
Talking money, how much does stuff cost, it limits participation. If all the discussions around shooting a Match all involve the money you'll spend or the money you should have spent upfront, you'll turn people off.
You take the cost out of the equation, then people won't know what they don't know, if a guy shows up with a $600 rifle with a $300 scope, great, entertain him and he will stick around, probably spend the money too. But if you start out telling him you have to spend $2500 on the lower class to get into the game, he'll walk away.
The discourage people from the start by how they describe everything
Talking money, how much does stuff cost, it limits participation. If all the discussions around shooting a Match all involve the money you'll spend or the money you should have spent upfront, you'll turn people off.
You take the cost out of the equation, then people won't know what they don't know, if a guy shows up with a $600 rifle with a $300 scope, great, entertain him and he will stick around, probably spend the money too. But if you start out telling him you have to spend $2500 on the lower class to get into the game, he'll walk away.
The discourage people from the start by how they describe everything
Weight is stability,
if you can add weight outside of the rules, meaning 20LBS with just rifle scope and stock, why can't I use the MPA Weight system after to put it back? If accessories dont' count, weights become an accessory. The limit has to be how you engage the stage.
You make weight a factor of "As Shot", you can then say, bags that attach are not counted. So a plate or a bag that arca's on the rifle is not included. But that you make a nylon component. Or a bag limit component, 1 rear bag, 1 pillow, 1 support bag, etc.
if you can add weight outside of the rules, meaning 20LBS with just rifle scope and stock, why can't I use the MPA Weight system after to put it back? If accessories dont' count, weights become an accessory. The limit has to be how you engage the stage.
You make weight a factor of "As Shot", you can then say, bags that attach are not counted. So a plate or a bag that arca's on the rifle is not included. But that you make a nylon component. Or a bag limit component, 1 rear bag, 1 pillow, 1 support bag, etc.
I don't want to get in the weeds as the idea is great. But I think the weight limits are still rather high. I get that someone might want to get a heavy AI into the limited class but a couple of pounds lower on each would be the right move. A 19lbs system weight is still gammy as hell.
It’s negotiable nothing is set in stone
I figure that genie is out of the bottle so you have to adjust, too many products in common use
I figure that genie is out of the bottle so you have to adjust, too many products in common use
Our MD up here for the WPRSC has one for new shooters. Impact Action, MPA Chassis, Huber Trigger and Bartlein Barrel. I think it has a Vortex Viper 2 5-25 on it.
Minuteman Precision Rifle League up in New England has 2.
Savage Elite Precision with Tango6 scopes and Atlas Bipods
Hmm wonder where they got those? LOL
New from RRS the Dovetail mounted Anchor(tm), weighing in at just 10lbs, drop this on top of your schmedium game changer and free recoil your way to production wins!
the way I read it was
USPSA jersey shooter shoots PRS
loses, uses USPSA tactics to win post match
NRL used to have some Loaner guns. They also bring a trailer full of parts to help out if equipment goes down. Don't recall if this was still the case, I didn't end up shooting any NRL matches this year.
What they really need to do is rather than a "production class" offer a "hunter's skill division." <12lbs, Limited to 4 rounds per stage, 120 seconds or longer, coaching allowed. Yep, MDs would have to balance the squads differently to deal with longer times; but new shooters would be exposed to PRS at the same time while not directly competing. The play is to bring hunters in by promoting the value in a chance to vet their dope better and develop long range skills. Maybe they'd be a bit of prone or off a tripod or sticks, their choice. This could be shot in a field course like Avenal's or along side any flat range PRS COF.
If you do this you don't need loaner guns etc., plus all the liability and managing ammo; people can shoot what they have, be it a $799 combo with adjustable turrets, stock Kimber Alpine, Gunwerks or your custom sheep gun. No prizes awarded or table walk unless a random draw, just a good practice class; kinda eliminates the need for cheats, cheating.
BTW 4 rounds is somewhat key as thin hunter weight and cheaper barrels tend to have issues when smoking hot. Plus some of the "hunting ammo" is $60 for a box of 20 rounds, and most off the shelf hunting rifles re not mag-fed. Lastly, some guys wouldn't want to burn up their precision magnum carbon barreled rifle, in a heavy round count match setting.
The largest pool of rifle shooter as hunters and a great pool to pull from. PRS is trying to get sponsorship $$ from manufactures that want to promote their precision offerings and changing the game to make them happy. This is a short games vs. getting a lot of new shooters exposed the matches having fun on what they own, then seeing that they'd like to shoot a division with a higher round count like @lowlight Limited 16lbs and under class were the RPR and heavier barred similar MFG offering would fit well.
If you do this you don't need loaner guns etc., plus all the liability and managing ammo; people can shoot what they have, be it a $799 combo with adjustable turrets, stock Kimber Alpine, Gunwerks or your custom sheep gun. No prizes awarded or table walk unless a random draw, just a good practice class; kinda eliminates the need for cheats, cheating.
BTW 4 rounds is somewhat key as thin hunter weight and cheaper barrels tend to have issues when smoking hot. Plus some of the "hunting ammo" is $60 for a box of 20 rounds, and most off the shelf hunting rifles re not mag-fed. Lastly, some guys wouldn't want to burn up their precision magnum carbon barreled rifle, in a heavy round count match setting.
The largest pool of rifle shooter as hunters and a great pool to pull from. PRS is trying to get sponsorship $$ from manufactures that want to promote their precision offerings and changing the game to make them happy. This is a short games vs. getting a lot of new shooters exposed the matches having fun on what they own, then seeing that they'd like to shoot a division with a higher round count like @lowlight Limited 16lbs and under class were the RPR and heavier barred similar MFG offering would fit well.
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I just think simplier is easier, fewer rules, less room to game them.
For sure a Hunter Class vs a Production class would be a better call, do Open and Hunter for all I care, less is this case is better as I said before,
Heck, do an Open, Limited, Hunter as long as each division is simple
For sure a Hunter Class vs a Production class would be a better call, do Open and Hunter for all I care, less is this case is better as I said before,
Heck, do an Open, Limited, Hunter as long as each division is simple
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last time I’ve expressed my opinion and suggested this kind of idea I’ve been demonized on FB. It’s showhow open minded they are and how some are attached in the gaming portion of the sport.
It's a closed-loop unless you get inside, was built by cliques.
They excel at Shooting the Messenger, it's how they survived this long.
They excel at Shooting the Messenger, it's how they survived this long.
To me the only way to quell the production drama is to go old school dirt track and change it to " claimer class " .
Run what you brung but at of day anyone shooting the class can " claim " the rig for X amount of dollars and take home a new rig .
At the track it was only for the engines not the whole car but the principal is the same . How many " production " rigs is a guy going to let go for say 1k - 1,500 before the spirit of the rule is being looked at and not the language of the loopholes ?
Run what you brung but at of day anyone shooting the class can " claim " the rig for X amount of dollars and take home a new rig .
At the track it was only for the engines not the whole car but the principal is the same . How many " production " rigs is a guy going to let go for say 1k - 1,500 before the spirit of the rule is being looked at and not the language of the loopholes ?
Production class does NOTHING to get new shooters...seriously who is going to spend $5000 just to see if they like a sport...and the NEW guy that shows up with his Ruger American or Remington 700 hunting rifle is going to finish pretty much at the bottom....Give Pynch a GAP production gun and he is going to finish nearly as high as he would with his open gun...give a new guy any top shooter's gun and he is still going to finish at bottom.....time to do away with PRODUCTION class....if you want new shooters then simple have a new shooter division....Rookie, AM, PRO AM, and PRO....base it on experience....after says 3-4 seasons or X number of matches and you move up to the next division.....this is my first year...no way I am going to beat Vibert, Ulmer..etc....probably not ever going to beat these guys that shoot 20-30 matches a year.....but heck I sure as heck have fun shooting with them.....THE MAJORITY of the shooters, say 75% are paying $200-300 bucks for a two day match with the top prize money going to the same top shooters...if it were not for the majority of the average shooters, there would be NO PRS....the majority of the money provided to the matches are from the shooters that are not going to finish high enough to even win the entry fee at the prize table....SO the JOB of Leagues is to make it fun for the majority of the shooters while still providing a competition that is fun for most with a enough hard stages to separate the wheat from the chaff.....
Regardless you have to have inspection up front. Changing shit after the match is over is crazy. Sorry sir your system doesn't meet the guidelines, would you like to shoot open?
That would be too easy,
I sure "what gun" was shot was no surprise the first morning, as if.
I sure "what gun" was shot was no surprise the first morning, as if.
Especially in production class, looking at each other like Cinderella's sisters, casting shade on the other gun, their pricing, how available it is....
Total Ruger buy in... Ruger is supporting the Rimfire series, makes perfect sense now,
Just saw this, at least they didn't make you wait, as always, follow the money !
Just saw this, at least they didn't make you wait, as always, follow the money !
