2021 ELR rifle weight and caliber restrictions

[THEIS]

Hi,

And that is any different from the American based egos that created ELR Central and its "O my god the world record requirements" and attempted to write/control the definition of "ELR", lolol?

Any different than the ELRSO founder and his shooting buddies being at match Feb 27 and not a single member of ELRSO spoke to us?
No introducing themselves...nothing....Just the "Fuck You" stares yet none of them knew who we were, lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[DPLongRange]

Hi,

And that is any different from the American based egos that created ELR Central and its "O my god the world record requirements" and attempted to write/control the definition of "ELR", lolol?

Any different than the ELRSO founder and his shooting buddies being at match Feb 27 and not a single member of ELRSO spoke to us?
No introducing themselves...nothing....Just the "Fuck You" stares yet none of them knew who we were, lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

So you instead reached out to them?
Still doesn’t justify taking the weight down to 40lbs and removing the Phoenix bipod because “it’s not tactical” again just a guy that wants to control for no other reason than to control but sure make it about something else Theis

 

[THEIS]

So you instead reached out to them?
Still doesn’t justify taking the weight down to 40lbs and removing the Phoenix bipod because “it’s not tactical” again just a guy that wants to control for no other reason than to control but sure make it about something else Theis

Hi,

Every single one of the ELR "Associations/Organizations" was birthed to "Control" shit because they seen the market space growing.
EACH and EVERY one can be directly connected to a company and/or entity....except URSA.
Oscar has keep his thing completely independent and unbiased.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[brianf]

Hi,

And that is any different from the American based egos that created ELR Central and its "O my god the world record requirements" and attempted to write/control the definition of "ELR", lolol?

Any different than the ELRSO founder and his shooting buddies being at match Feb 27 and not a single member of ELRSO spoke to us?
No introducing themselves...nothing....Just the "Fuck You" stares yet none of them knew who we were, lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

They’re were pissed because a r&d rifle shooting factory ammo out if a ziplock bag beat 2/3 or them.

 

[DPLongRange]

Hi,

So going on that principle....what are the ever increasing "limitations" for, lol?

Don't answer that, hahaha....was rhetorical.....I already know the answer.

Shit, I have an idea.....Why don't we require all the rifles to feed and function from magazine....you know....since "tactical" "real world" rifles is the concept.....

Sincerely,
Theis

Glad you agree with me now Theis, Ko2M is not a tactical contest.

 

[THEIS]

Glad you agree with me now Theis, Ko2M is not a tactical contest.

Hi,

I never not agreed on the concept principle but the fact of you attempting to highlight it in the "Foreigner" telling USA what to do is absolute ridiculous.

Especially when the USA based entities and people are doing the exact same "control" shit.....For Christ Sakes ELR Central jumped onto the ELR scene and attempted to rewrite the definition of ELR, lolol.

O and no I did not introduce myself to the ELRSO founder and his buddies....I am not in the habit of travelling 12 hours, paying $300 to shoot a single day match then introducing myself to the organization and ask them to take my sponsorship money, lolol...That is NOT how any of that works.

Just as I do not go to the steakhouse and ask someone to come over to my table and take my order....

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[phlegethon]

One of the bizarre things about the current ELR landscape is the position of Ko2M. I think there is a somewhat natural split between a "tactical" rifle setup and one meant for a bench or F class style shooting.

The latter seems to encompass most formal and informal ELR shooting over the years—people trying to push the envelope with heavier rifles, big cartridges, and the same kind of highly stable rests or bipods used in F-TR and F-open. These are systems that are somewhat portable and meant to be fired by a single operator, but not practical for carrying around. This makes sense to me for someone trying to push the absolute limits of a shoulder fired weapon.

And then you might have some idea of a rifle that could be carried into the field, in principle. It would make sense that this would be lighter and have a folding bipod. What does not make sense, at least not to me, is that the competition billed as the ultimate in ELR would try to fit into this box, and especially not with a weight limit of 40 lbs that is still ludicrous for a field application. If you want a tactical rifle, I would think 20-25 lbs would be more of an upper limit, like the ELRSO light category. (Some would argue you could just put the firing line half a mile from the parking lot and this would take care of itself...)

 

[DPLongRange]

idk about your match experience, i wasn't there, Jay is pretty easy to talk too - heck its difficult to get him to stop (just messing with you Jay if you are reading) They are all very approachable so not sure about your experience or why.

The trend so far is all the competitions have a weight limit of 50lbs and any bipod. So the only reason I can figure FCSA pres is different is because he wants to be different. He's never given a reason. If he wants it to be tactical - then just say so and make the thing a sniper competition, mag fed, only military used calibers, only military grade ammo etc, but that's not the reality. I take my Phoenix bipod hunting btw, works really well went hunting African style from a high seat. It's great. Could probably stand to have some of the materials changed over to aluminum vs plastic but it's a great bipod.

Effectively he has changed the rules for all the ELR organizations and competitions because few people have 2 ELR Rigs. If you change your rifle make weight for Ko2m then you are bringing a light rifle to all all the other competitions? This is fine for the sponsored shooters that get free rifles and gear but for the mortals this is a real issue. I'm not complaining about not being sponsored - I actually don't want to be sponsored because I don't want to be locked into using a specific product. - make sense?

 

[ELR researcher]

Effectively he has changed the rules for all the ELR organizations and competitions...

Ko2M has not changed one single thing for URSA (which precedes Ko2M). Not equipment weight (never been a weight limit), nor the need to shoot on your belly (never been a "where to shoot from" requirement - and we've had at least three of our shooters shoot out of the back of vehicles - though not recommended since wind has a great big target to push against), nor from a bipod (though many shooters use a bipod, both on the ground or on a bench). And no thoughts, much less plans (whatsoever), to change things. Sticking with run-what-you-brung and lovin it!

 

[DPLongRange]

idk about your match experience, i wasn't there, Jay is pretty easy to talk too - heck its difficult to get him to stop (just messing with you Jay if you are reading) They are all very approachable so not sure about your experience or why.

The trend so far is all the competitions have a weight limit of 50lbs and any bipod. So the only reason I can figure FCSA pres is different is because he wants to be different. He's never given a reason. If he wants it to be tactical - then just say so and make the thing a sniper competition, mag fed, only military used calibers, only military grade ammo etc, but that's not the reality. I take my Phoenix bipod hunting btw, works really well went hunting African style from a high seat. It's great. Could probably stand to have some of the materials changed over to aluminum vs plastic but it's a great bipod.

Effectively he has changed the rules for all the ELR organizations and competitions because few people have 2 ELR Rigs. If you change your rifle make weight for Ko2m then you are bringing a light rifle to all all the other competitions? This is fine for the sponsored shooters that get free rifles and gear but for the mortals this is a real issue. I'm not complaining about not being sponsored - I actually don't want to be sponsored because I don't want to be locked into using a specific product. - make sense?

Ok so all but your org, fair enough. Can’t use same rifle in U

Ko2M has not changed one single thing for URSA (which precedes Ko2M). Not equipment weight (never been a weight limit), nor the need to shoot on your belly (never been a "where to shoot from" requirement - and we've had at least three of our shooters shoot out of the back of vehicles - though not recommended since wind has a great big target to push against), nor from a bipod (though many shooters use a bipod, both on the ground or on a bench). And no thoughts, much less plans (whatsoever), to change things. Sticking with run-what-you-brung and lovin it!

Ok fair enough but you can’t use your URSA rifle and Phoenix bipod at Ko2M- which is the point

 

[Geno C.]

No affect on Spearpoint. They went 50lb and any bipod. Along with Ringneck ranch also. Ko2m isn’t affecting much of anything really. Their time has past from what I’ve been seeing at matches

 

[ELR researcher]

Ok fair enough but you can’t use your URSA rifle and Phoenix bipod at Ko2M- which is the point

Ah...most of the rifles shot in URSA competition are "legal" for Ko2M.

 

[Mileshotj]

Hey Theis
It was just brought to my attention that you had some comments about me and my ELRSO family from a previous match at 7 Foxtrot.
I have read your comments and take exception to them. Let me point out a few things to you. There’s no one in this sport that does anymore or as much to promote the growth and future development of ELR than I do. I was not aware that you were at the match and if I didn’t make it over to introduce myself so be it and I’m sorry! Anyone that knows me knows I go out of my way to meet and greet as many people as I can and help out wherever I go at matches even to the point of neglecting my own prep when shooting the match which I was that day. Also I’m sure you noticed that I was on glass 70% of the time spotting for fellow students, friends and team members. I’m sure you saw me spotting up until my time to shoot and then have someone bring my weapon up to me along with my ammo to shoot my slot with no prep time.... Instead you make broad abrasive statements about how everyone stared at you the whole time and made no advances to say hi! Well bud it’s a 2 way street and you could have just as easily made an introduction as I could because it doesn’t sound like you were competing!
I look forward to our paths crossing at a match or event in the near future and I promise I will seek you out for an introduction and maybe we can confront this face to face like men instead of airing ones insecurities on a open social forum.
Regards,
Jay Monych
Director ELRSO

 

[timintx]

And that is any different from the American based egos that created ELR Central and its "O my god the world record requirements" and attempted to write/control the definition of "ELR", lolol?

Any different than the ELRSO founder and his shooting buddies being at match Feb 27 and not a single member of ELRSO spoke to us?
No introducing themselves...nothing....Just the "Fuck You" stares yet none of them knew who we were, lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

Theis I can say those guys dont do fuck you stares , it is more than likely I wonder who needs help stares. They are all good people Jay is moving 90 mph and hard to catch but once you do you will soon realize his character is in the right place.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

This is going to be something of a railing reply since this thread has rambled all over. I will generally say that the limits that people have imposed are generally welcomed by shooters who are either building guns or wishing to compete on somewhat even footing with other shooters. Unlimited guns result in an arms race of who can put the most money into something and that is far harder on the budged for shooters than sharp limits. Unlimited guns also drive people away from the sport rather than being inclusive. If you show up to a match with something that resembles a normal gun and the guys in the winners circle are all using half ton $30k artillery pieces, your response is going to be "fuck this" and you will never come back.

ELR mindset over the past few years since it has recently become "profitable"...

There are a few matches that probably turn a decent profit but that has never been the focus for the vast majority. This isn't PRS. People put on these matches by and large because they like ELR and want to grow the sport. As far as Ko2M goes, Eddie Walt and I don't see a penny from the match and we don't even expense our costs to run it. Everything goes back to range development and to efforts to grow the sport.

Who allowed rifles over 50lb before in an elr match?

First year of Ko2M had no limits and we had one or two stupidly heavy guns. Ultimately we put the weight limit in at 50 the next year based upon the FCSA hunter class weight limit. If you look at FCSA hunter class, the majority of guns are around 35 pounds even though the limit is 50. A heavy gun can help make up for poor shooting fundamentals but it isn't going to help you make the grade in competition.

Plate size isn’t settled at all really. The ELR at Clark’s Knob match from that fall that a ton of hits way out there happened, had plates as but as 48”

We use scaled plates for Ko2M. 36" squares became a thing because of the world record standards but was never meant to be a standard for matches, it just got construed as a universal standard. The biggest issue is that once you get far enough out that 1 MPH of windage error is enough to miss a 36" target, all hits at that range become a matter of luck rather than skill. That is why we use larger targets and why I pushed Steve to use them.

Basically it boils down to ego. A certain person on the FCSA from Spain or some shit wants the Ko2M to be a tacticool competition. It’s ludicrous but that’s what it is. I’m sure most Americans like being told what to do by a foreign National special sniper cool guy. (Sarcasm) not even sure why he is running the American Ko2M but ok. I’m thinking his ego gets in the way of a lot of his thinking. He was sniper so he wants everyone to shoot like that. Next he will have us helo dropped 2kilos out from the firing line and we have to hump in undetected to the starting line in full camo. Of course we all know Ko2M isn’t about being “sniper qualified” it’s the cutting edge of evolution of the long range shooting sports. We should be looking at all capabilities and equipment without limitations. This is how you push the envelope. It’s how America does it anyway. But whatever. The FSCA elected him so it’s his show to run

So Eddie was the president of the FCSA when we started Ko2M but Randy (of Thunder 1.5) has been president for the past few years. Ko2M match rules come down to consensus between Eddie, Walt and I. Our goals have always been the advancement of technique and technologies for ELR and the changes we have made over the years has been along those lines. Having and Unlimited class is not something that has ever interested us since it drives development of ridiculous and impractical things, but if you'd like to run a match like that, I'd be happy to help you with the logistics.

-Alex

 

[Geno C.]

We use scaled plates for Ko2M. 36" squares became a thing because of the world record standards but was never meant to be a standard for matches, it just got construed as a universal standard. The biggest issue is that once you get far enough out that 1 MPH of windage error is enough to miss a 36" target, all hits at that range become a matter of luck rather than skill. That is why we use larger targets and why I pushed Steve to use them.

Sounds like, lets make the target bigger so they’re easier to hit instead of making the shooters and equipment get better enough to hit the same size target, just farther out. Make people feel good for hitting targets way out there. Without a standard, shoots like Steve Reams are showing as everyone is hitting the far targets go people want to go there because they can say they hit at 3500+ or whatever, never stating that the plate was over 1000 square inches bigger than the 1500yd target. Sort of like a Participation trophy

 

[brianf]

Sounds like, lets make the target bigger so they’re easier to hit instead of making the shooters and equipment get better enough to hit the same size target, just farther out. Make people feel good for hitting targets way out there. Without a standard, shoots like Steve Reams are showing as everyone is hitting the far targets go people want to go there because they can say they hit at 3500+ or whatever, never stating that the plate was over 1000 square inches bigger than the 1500yd target. Sort of like a Participation trophy

exactly

it has to be fun for the new guys and hard for the "pros"

once the course of fire of both is accomplished then you can have artillery on the same line as a guy with a factory 338LM.

new guy gets some hits and has fun then he can watch and drool over the big dogs.

growth of any market segment, economy...anything needs a consistent flow of new participants

legacy participants are then used to market the brand, while the new guys pay the bills/ create revenue (not to be mixed with profit). revenue is then used to market and bring "free" waters to the match next time, again creating a inviting atmosphere.

there was a match a few weeks ago (this might be common not my forte just yet) people traveled hours via car and air to show up and shoot 20-30 rounds just to go home.

any sport which is not constant competition like football, basketball, needs to go above and beyond to create a atmosphere for new shooters and current shooters alike to practice their craft and spend more time at the firing line weather its scored or not.

Ex. mandatory for X number of legacy shooters are required to stand side by side with a brand new entrant for that location of for the series in general. that creates a inviting atmosphere where participants will return.

many shooters do not come from a shooting "family" and have learned everything they know by chance or online etc.. unsolicited help is always welcome

things of that nature are needed and are not found in shooting most centerfire competitions.


for baseball fans...Joe DiMaggio yankee great (yes ima yankee fan lol)

he was playing in some little ballpark towards the end of his career when his knees are done.

he always ran in from the outfield because "thats how you play the game"

young guy in the dugout said why are you running in, no one is in the stadium and your Joe DiMaggio etc...

His response...there might be a kid out there that never say me play when i way young, he only hears his dads stories about me

that in a nutshell is marketing and brand growth

 

[ZiaHunter]

@Mileshotj

Jay will the caliber restriction be in place for the Mimbres match? Hopefully the shooting order will be better than last year. Registered early and made the three hour drive leaving at 4:00 AM only to be the second to last shooter because I arrived that morning. Got all my gear ready, pinged targets got my dope and waited and waited and waited. At 10:30 checked the shooting order and was still going to be at least another two hours before I was to shoot my first round. Too long to wait and packed my kit and left. Sent an email to ELRSO regarding my experience and didn't bitch or request a refund. Just suggestions on how to speed up the match and not give early shooters an advantage due to conditions. No reply received.

 

[Geno C.]

exactly

it has to be fun for the new guys and hard for the "pros"

once the course of fire of both is accomplished then you can have artillery on the same line as a guy with a factory 338LM.

new guy gets some hits and has fun then he can watch and drool over the big dogs.

growth of any market segment, economy...anything needs a consistent flow of new participants

legacy participants are then used to market the brand, while the new guys pay the bills/ create revenue (not to be mixed with profit). revenue is then used to market and bring "free" waters to the match next time, again creating a inviting atmosphere.

there was a match a few weeks ago (this might be common not my forte just yet) people traveled hours via car and air to show up and shoot 20-30 rounds just to go home.

any sport which is not constant competition like football, basketball, needs to go above and beyond to create a atmosphere for new shooters and current shooters alike to practice their craft and spend more time at the firing line weather its scored or not.

Ex. mandatory for X number of legacy shooters are required to stand side by side with a brand new entrant for that location of for the series in general. that creates a inviting atmosphere where participants will return.

many shooters do not come from a shooting "family" and have learned everything they know by chance or online etc.. unsolicited help is always welcome

things of that nature are needed and are not found in shooting most centerfire competitions.


for baseball fans...Joe DiMaggio yankee great (yes ima yankee fan lol)

he was playing in some little ballpark towards the end of his career when his knees are done.

he always ran in from the outfield because "thats how you play the game"

young guy in the dugout said why are you running in, no one is in the stadium and your Joe DiMaggio etc...

His response...there might be a kid out there that never say me play when i way young, he only hears his dads stories about me

that in a nutshell is marketing and brand growth

I don’t setup or plan the matches. Just shoot them. Are you saying small plates for pros next to big plates for beginners? Elr really isn’t a beginner friendly type of shooting.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Sounds like, lets make the target bigger so they’re easier to hit instead of making the shooters and equipment get better enough to hit the same size target, just farther out. Make people feel good for hitting targets way out there. Without a standard, shoots like Steve Reams are showing as everyone is hitting the far targets go people want to go there because they can say they hit at 3500+ or whatever, never stating that the plate was over 1000 square inches bigger than the 1500yd target. Sort of like a Participation trophy

So perhaps I need to explain this using smaller words...

If you have a gun that has more that 1 MOA of drift from 1 MPH of wind 2 miles (which is essentially all guns) and a target that is 1 MOA across, if you hit it, it isn't because you are good it is because you got lucky. Making a wind call that is less than 1MPH accurate is not something that anyone can claim to do without looking completely full of shit. If a test can only be passed through luck then the test itself has failed in its purpose and the results are meaningless.

-Alex

 

[Geno C.]

So perhaps I need to explain this using smaller words...

If you have a gun that has more that 1 MOA of drift from 1 MPH of wind 2 miles (which is essentially all guns) and a target that is 1 MOA across, if you hit it, it isn't because you are good it is because you got lucky. Making a wind call that is less than 1MPH accurate is not something that anyone can claim to do without looking completely full of shit. If a test can only be passed through luck then the test itself has failed in its purpose and the results are meaningless.

-

That’s because you’re confining you’re thinking to currently available equipment. That’s not advancing technology or elr shooting. Pretending you’re smarter than me only makes you sound unintelligent. Small words are best though

 

[Geno C.]

So perhaps I need to explain this using smaller words...

If you have a gun that has more that 1 MOA of drift from 1 MPH of wind 2 miles (which is essentially all guns) and a target that is 1 MOA across, if you hit it, it isn't because you are good it is because you got lucky. Making a wind call that is less than 1MPH accurate is not something that anyone can claim to do without looking completely full of shit. If a test can only be passed through luck then the test itself has failed in its purpose and the results are meaningless.

-Alex

Let me make a very simple example for you....

Copper solids coming out for 22ll. Smaller targets farther out are more likely to be hit because of advancements. Double the bc of standard lead leads to less wind influence. 1mph of wind pushes the bullets less. That’s what that bc number tells you

 

[Mileshotj]

@Mileshotj

Jay will the caliber restriction be in place for the Mimbres match? Hopefully the shooting order will be better than last year. Registered early and made the three hour drive leaving at 4:00 AM only to be the second to last shooter because I arrived that morning. Got all my gear ready, pinged targets got my dope and waited and waited and waited. At 10:30 checked the shooting order and was still going to be at least another two hours before I was to shoot my first round. Too long to wait and packed my kit and left. Sent an email to ELRSO regarding my experience and didn't bitch or request a refund. Just suggestions on how to speed up the match and not give early shooters an advantage due to conditions. No reply received.

Sorry to say that the Mimbres match has been cancelled! Landowner problems....it looks
like each year it get harder and harder to build this sport with landowners and such scared of legal liabilities from fallout should it occur.
ELRSO will hold it main match at Greystone Casle in Mingus Tx in mid July and will be a exclusive venue. It’s a Top shelf shooting resort and a place for the whole family to come and enjoy “please see their website” we will be opening books and have lodging package available in the next couple weeks and hope
You can make it! Jay

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Let me make a very simple example for you....

Copper solids coming out for 22ll. Smaller targets farther out are more likely to be hit because of advancements. Double the bc of standard lead leads to less wind influence. 1mph of wind pushes the bullets less. That’s what that bc number tells you

Feel free to do the math on the velocities and BC needed to make a 36" wide target something you can consistently hit at 2 miles with any wind changes from shot to shot. The more capable calibers like the 416s shrink the target size needed when compared to the 375s but we are pushing the material limits already so you are never going to see a doubling in velocity or BC from where we are now. You will just see incremental refinements that shrink that windage window a bit more. Nobody is going 5 for 5 on long range targets that are 60 inches wide at 2 miles and I think the current record is 2/5. If we see people cleaning targets then we may shrink them or move them back or both but we aren't there yet.

-Alex

 

[phlegethon]

So perhaps I need to explain this using smaller words...

If you have a gun that has more that 1 MOA of drift from 1 MPH of wind 2 miles (which is essentially all guns) and a target that is 1 MOA across, if you hit it, it isn't because you are good it is because you got lucky. Making a wind call that is less than 1MPH accurate is not something that anyone can claim to do without looking completely full of shit. If a test can only be passed through luck then the test itself has failed in its purpose and the results are meaningless.

-Alex

I agree. If you have matches where the hit rate is below 30% then I think luck is playing too much of a role. Yes, technology advances, and if that is a real improvement then hit rates will go up, and relative target sizes can be changed.

 

[Geno C.]

Feel free to do the math on the velocities and BC needed to make a 36" wide target something you can consistently hit at 2 miles with any wind changes from shot to shot. The more capable calibers like the 416s shrink the target size needed when compared to the 375s but we are pushing the material limits already so you are never going to see a doubling in velocity or BC from where we are now. You will just see incremental refinements that shrink that windage window a bit more. Nobody is going 5 for 5 on long range targets that are 60 inches wide at 2 miles and I think the current record is 2/5. If we see people cleaning targets then we may shrink them or move them back or both but we aren't there yet.

-Alex

I’ve done the math. You’re missing the point. Your last sentence says you understand it though. It you can’t hit a standardized target at a certain distance, you’re shooting too far for what’s currently available. You’re only making the targets bigger so you can feel better saying you hit at 2 miles.

The way it is now, a hit at Spearpoint at 2900 on a 36” target is worth the same points as a hit somewhere else at 2900 on a 42” or a 48” target. That’s just dumb.

 

[brianf]

I don’t setup or plan the matches. Just shoot them. Are you saying small plates for pros next to big plates for beginners? Elr really isn’t a beginner friendly type of shooting.

yes.... something along those lines

have a piece of steel with 2 "rings"

inside ring/steel is 1 MOA outer donut is 3 MOA and they swing independent

and as suggested above series target size to distance ratios have to be consistent between locations

if not it cannot be called a series

it is just several rifle ranges that allow guys to shoot at certain distances, certain times of the year.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

I’ve done the math. You’re missing the point. Your last sentence says you understand it though. It you can’t hit a standardized target at a certain distance, you’re shooting too far for what’s currently available. You’re only making the targets bigger so you can feel better saying you hit at 2 miles.

The way it is now, a hit at Spearpoint at 2900 on a 36” target is worth the same points as a hit somewhere else at 2900 on a 42” or a 48” target. That’s just dumb.

You are right. I should revise my scoring system to give zero value to targets that are too small to be hit with anything but luck. I'll get right on that...

-Alex

 

[brianf]

I don’t setup or plan the matches. Just shoot them. Are you saying small plates for pros next to big plates for beginners? Elr really isn’t a beginner friendly type of shooting.

forgot to add

for market growth...if its not beginner friendly (i agree) then a feeder series needs to be created or partnered with

that is time consuming and difficult, especially because the shooting community is run like a 1950's deli with no partnerships between series or disciplines

most series are created because someone doesnt agree with the current management or rules so they take their 10 friends and create a new series

that is not conducive to partnerships or growth, that fragmentation which makes it easier for erosion

the community has to consolidate and educate new clients on their own...if not it dies over time

Rising tide raises all ships

 

[THEIS]

You are right. I should revise my scoring system to give zero value to targets that are too small to be hit with anything but luck. I'll get right on that...

-Alex

Hi,

Pretty sure he is saying bring the target distances IN instead of making targets larger

Sort of along the lines of enough is enough with all the "I hit 3 miles" type stuff....NO you did not hit anything at that distance; you got lucky lol.

IF the 2 mile hit ratio is under 50% then stop throwing bullets with hopes of hitting and stop enlarging targets to make hit percentages appear better...bring the targets in and focus on marksmanship that is on the level the equipment is at.

Anyone care to start the conversation as to why so many "venues" and land owners are not allowing the ELR shoots on them any longer???

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[brianf]

Hi,

Pretty sure he is saying bring the target distances IN instead of making targets larger

Sort of along the lines of enough is enough with all the "I hit 3 miles" type stuff....NO you did not hit anything at that distance; you got lucky lol.

IF the 2 mile hit ratio is under 50% then stop throwing bullets with hopes of hitting and stop enlarging targets to make hit percentages appear better...bring the targets in and focus on marksmanship that is on the level the equipment is at.

Anyone care to start the conversation as to why so many "venues" and land owners are not allowing the ELR shoots on them any longer???

Sincerely,
Theis

100%

if attainable ES of a load is actually larger than the target size its is absolutely 100% luck at any distance

there should also be a increased point value given for first round hits at a new distance


2 shooters:

shooter 1: hits all targets on first round and misses the rest

shooter 2: misses all first round and hits on second round

there is no way they should have the same score at the end of the day

shooter 1 is a marksman, shooter 2 is a good shot.....very different

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Hi,

Pretty sure he is saying bring the target distances IN instead of making targets larger

Sort of along the lines of enough is enough with all the "I hit 3 miles" type stuff....NO you did not hit anything at that distance; you got lucky lol.

IF the 2 mile hit ratio is under 50% then stop throwing bullets with hopes of hitting and stop enlarging targets to make hit percentages appear better...bring the targets in and focus on marksmanship that is on the level the equipment is at.

Anyone care to start the conversation as to why so many "venues" and land owners are not allowing the ELR shoots on them any longer???

Sincerely,
Theis

The fact of the matter is that while most people can't compete past 2000 yards, some can. When you look at the scores for people that hit consecutive targets past 2000 yards in competition, you see the same names again and again. They are the people that have figured things out and we want them to have a venue in which they can go head to head and prove who comes out on top. This requires longer ranges and targets sized so they can be hit with skill as the determining factor.

There are some people who are consistently around 2200 yards and who only have single hits around 3000 with no targets in between and it is hard to take those scores seriously sometimes. Particularly when a significant number of shooters at the event question the validity of the 3000 yard hit in the first place...

There are challenges to developing a new sport and from targets sizes to scoring systems, the driving force should be evidentiary rather than arbitrary. Sometimes we have to keep things the way they are just to get enough data to know what we are doing wrong. At Ko2M we went from square to rectangular scaling targets after a few years because we had enough data to know what was needed to do it right.

-Alex

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

100%

if attainable ES of a load is actually larger than the target size its is absolutely 100% luck at any distance

there should also be a increased point value given for first round hits at a new distance


2 shooters:

shooter 1: hits all targets on first round and misses the rest

shooter 2: misses all first round and hits on second round

there is no way they should have the same score at the end of the day

shooter 1 is a marksman, shooter 2 is a good shot.....very different

Here is the score sheet we use. You can plug in some values and see how it works but essentially first round hits are worth more and the further out you go the higher the score goes.

Ko2M 2022 ELR Scoring.xlsx

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

-Alex

 

[Geno C.]

You are right. I should revise my scoring system to give zero value to targets that are too small to be hit with anything but luck. I'll get right on that...

-Alex

Sore spot? Now let’s take a look at the current limiting factor; in a vacuum. I’ll see if I can use some big words so maybe you’ll understand where I’m coming from.

Limit right now is the bullet. Specifically the deviation of the ballistic coefficient from one projectile to the next in a given production lot. Take a load with a velocity deviation of Zero. Now take the top and bottom ballistic coefficient values and do the math on the vertical dispersion at a given distance in a specific density altitude. That will give you a value of the target size at a given distance that is currently achievable by currently available technology. Of course, this will have to be done with the highest ballistic coefficient bullet with the best deviation. Using that bullet, and therefore that target size, at that given distance, the best shooter, with the best load in the best conditions could possibly be able to hit it on purpose, every shot.

If we don’t care about target size, all we’re doing is shooting at stuff so we can pat each other on the backs for hitting something farther. Nothing is pushed. Nothing grows.

Did I use enough longer words for you?

 

[THEIS]

If we don’t care about target size, all we’re doing is shooting at stuff so we can pat each other on the backs for hitting something farther. Nothing is pushed. Nothing grows.

Hi,

EXACTLY why we designed and built weapon system to operate at higher pressure capabilities.

Take abc cartridge and push that monolithic at 85k chamber pressures.

BUT then we run into the limitation of "cannot shoot that MV" at matches, lolol....same matches that promote "pushing the boundaries"...

There is a reason independent facilities such as Spearpoint, etc are having better participation than "Organizational" run matches.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Anyone in this thread looking to build a shooting facility that can accommodate ELR aspects in regards to pushing the boundaries?
One that doesn't have to worry about whether they can or cannot hold a comp due to whatever reasons they want to give?

IE...
Remote operated smoke machines at various distances so you can hold real wind reading classes?
Windcube machine so you can view wind, their vectors, etc at the actual projectile flight?
Access to camera equipped paper targets so those that want to push the MV do not have to deal with "Cannot shoot my target" syndrome?

Someone has to be looking into all this right???

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[THEIS]

Here is the score sheet we use. You can plug in some values and see how it works but essentially first round hits are worth more and the further out you go the higher the score goes.

Ko2M 2022 ELR Scoring.xlsx

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

-Alex

Hi,

He was referring the the "Final" stage of the recent ELRSO match as to where the 1k yard CB that each shooter had as their first shot of the "final" was worth zero points, lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[ShaneLSmith]

Hi,

And that is any different from the American based egos that created ELR Central and its "O my god the world record requirements" and attempted to write/control the definition of "ELR", lolol?

Any different than the ELRSO founder and his shooting buddies being at match Feb 27 and not a single member of ELRSO spoke to us?
No introducing themselves...nothing....Just the "Fuck You" stares yet none of them knew who we were, lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

Theis,

ELRSO member here and a newer ELR competitor, I'm only involved in this sport because of how inviting, helpful and nice Jay Monych, Robert Waggoner and Lindsey Paul ( all founding members of the ELRSO ) were at the first match I attended. I had no clue who they were but they all offered help and encouragement along with ELRSO members Jeff Medlin and Terry Garrison. This group of ELRSO members and owners are the sole reason I am an ELR shooter.

Three years ago that "tight group of shooting buddies" you reference didn't even know each other. The family atmosphere the ELRSO has created in the sport resulted in all of us being buddies dare I say brothers. I am aware of several brand new shooters at this match, ( ones I met for the first time at this match ) all of them got wind reading advice, help spotting and seemed to feel welcome except you. Maybe you have a little chip on your shoulder? Feel special somehow like the red carpet should have been rolled out? You show up to one match, nobody strokes your ego and you start trash talking a group of people who have become my brothers and sisters in 3 short years. I honestly was shocked when I read your post, I thought I spoke to everyone at the match, I always go out of my way to meet anyone I don't know and I don't even remember seeing you? Sulking in the corner like someone didn't share a toy on the playground with you? You've got to be a real douche to not introduce yourself to anyone then come on a forum page a trash a bunch of people for not introducing themselves to you! Double standard much?

As for sponsorship, it's my understanding the ELRSO refuses sponsorship in order to maintain cash payouts at every match. I'm a proud member and supporter of my ELRSO family, more than willing to talk over the subject with you sometime, you know, face to face like men not in silence until we have computers to hide behind.

Sincerely,
Shane L. Smith

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

No sulking here, lolol...I had a prototype gun with 2 different brands of factory ammunition take 6th place.

O and FYI the ELRSO page has an entire tab of "Sponsors".

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[ShaneLSmith]

Point made. I look forward to seeing you!

 

[THEIS]

Point made. I look forward to seeing you!

Hi,

You want my address since you so bad??

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[ShaneLSmith]

How do you propose we do so? I'm open to suggestions. I don't let false statements about people I consider friends go unaddressed.

 

[ShaneLSmith]

Hi,

No sulking here, lolol...I had a prototype gun with 2 different brands of factory ammunition take 6th place.

O and FYI the ELRSO page has an entire tab of "Sponsors".

Sincerely,
Theis


View attachment 7583003

All those listed under sponsors are either founding partners or on the advisory committee. The ELRSO does not solicit sponsorship.

 

[THEIS]

How do you propose we do so? I'm open to suggestions. I don't let false statements about people I consider friends go unaddressed.

Hi,

What is funny is that you think you get to determine what is true based on my take of it, lololol

What you gonna do? Make me change my mind about the first impression I got? Hint...you all are going the wrong direction.

My address is listed publicly...just search company name on any FFL database.

You starting to sound like ol Kiote rifles guy, hahahaha

So...I revert back to my earlier question...anyone here want to open discussion as to why more and more land owners are pulling the plug on ELR shoots??
Since that is actually a topic of promoting and growing the ELR sport; not whether I hurt your feelings for my opinions on your "friend" when my opinions were on the Organization but keep spouting without acknowledging the real issues.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Shane, under the Code Duello I'll be your second. There is after all a civilized way to resolve differences.

-Alex

 

[Geno C.]

Shane, under the Code Duello I'll be your second. There is after all a civilized way to resolve differences.

-Alex

Very unwise.

 

[1J04]

Theis,

ELRSO member here and a newer ELR competitor, I'm only involved in this sport because of how inviting, helpful and nice Jay Monych, Robert Waggoner and Lindsey Paul ( all founding members of the ELRSO ) were at the first match I attended. I had no clue who they were but they all offered help and encouragement along with ELRSO members Jeff Medlin and Terry Garrison. This group of ELRSO members and owners are the sole reason I am an ELR shooter.

Three years ago that "tight group of shooting buddies" you reference didn't even know each other. The family atmosphere the ELRSO has created in the sport resulted in all of us being buddies dare I say brothers. I am aware of several brand new shooters at this match, ( ones I met for the first time at this match ) all of them got wind reading advice, help spotting and seemed to feel welcome except you. Maybe you have a little chip on your shoulder? Feel special somehow like the red carpet should have been rolled out? You show up to one match, nobody strokes your ego and you start trash talking a group of people who have become my brothers and sisters in 3 short years. I honestly was shocked when I read your post, I thought I spoke to everyone at the match, I always go out of my way to meet anyone I don't know and I don't even remember seeing you? Sulking in the corner like someone didn't share a toy on the playground with you? You've got to be a real douche to not introduce yourself to anyone then come on a forum page a trash a bunch of people for not introducing themselves to you! Double standard much?

As for sponsorship, it's my understanding the ELRSO refuses sponsorship in order to maintain cash payouts at every match. I'm a proud member and supporter of my ELRSO family, more than willing to talk over the subject with you sometime, you know, face to face like men not in silence until we have computers to hide behind.

Sincerely,
Shane L. Smith

How do you propose we do so? I'm open to suggestions. I don't let false statements about people I consider friends go unaddressed.

Shane, under the Code Duello I'll be your second. There is after all a civilized way to resolve differences.

-Alex

ROFLMFAO

You Bitches Have No Idea. None.

 

[Jamie C]

Hi,

Anyone in this thread looking to build a shooting facility that can accommodate ELR aspects in regards to pushing the boundaries?
One that doesn't have to worry about whether they can or cannot hold a comp due to whatever reasons they want to give?

IE...
Remote operated smoke machines at various distances so you can hold real wind reading classes?
Windcube machine so you can view wind, their vectors, etc at the actual projectile flight?
Access to camera equipped paper targets so those that want to push the MV do not have to deal with "Cannot shoot my target" syndrome?

Someone has to be looking into all this right???

Sincerely,
Theis

Will there be a participation trophy? Asking for a friend....

 

[powdahound76]

Sign up!!
Challenge a guy you dont know to a fight!!

Funny funny stuff.

Can I put $5 on Track Suit??? (My code name for Theis for the new booger eaters)
Or is betting uncouth?



Challenging one to a duel or even suggesting such on here proves what douche bags you must trully be.

 

[Geno C.]

Sign up!!
Challenge a guy you dont know to a fight!!

Funny funny stuff.

Can I put $5 on Track Suit??? (My code name for Theis for the new booger eaters)
Or is betting uncouth?



Challenging one to a duel or even suggesting such on here proves what douche bags you must trully be.

Threatening a member is a ban worthy offense, but I want to see how this pans out