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22 Vets a day committed suicide in 2012!

HBAM1

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 2, 2012
0
0
Southern California
Can someone explain this to me?

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/02/veterans-suicide-rate-87077.html

I too have been in combat, shot several bad guys, been shot.
I have NEVER wanted to take my own life cause the guilt.

We just hung out, talked about it, or not.
Got drunk, talked about it, or not.
Found ladies to listen to us spew about it or not.

I dont get this at all...are these guys mental to begin with and should have never been allowed in a combat unit?

stunned.....
 
I think the majority are not combat veterans, however initially maybe. I think it's a bunch of things working together causing this issue, there's plenty of studies. The mental attitude caused by current military and societal atmosphere that is ok to feel bad for yourself, promotion of ptsd (in a way that an individual creates mental problems when non really exist, a placebo effect) doesn't help. In theory all these suicides create additional foundation for others thinking it, a snowball effect perhaps.

Forgot to add significant change from being deployed to going home is a major cause, some people can't cope with change. In turn, causes things like divorce, which people kill themselves over.
 
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The simple fact is some people are good with it while others are not. I have had several deployments to the different areas and while I am OK, I have had a few friends that did not fair to well. One of my junior HM’s volunteered for another tour in Afghanistan after spending 15 months with a few army guys embedded with the locals. Half way through his second tour they had to send him home and he was med boarded out and has never been the same.
 
I have tried to delve deeper into the statistics on suicides but there doesn't seem like there is a lot of data to really look into. Sure your typical soldier Z killed him or herself in this manner, rank, age, and branch. I have tried to locate jobs, number of deployments, length of those deployments, decompression times between deployments, time after returning from deployment, and family situations would be more telling as to why this is happening.

I have a strong suspicion that deployment lengths, frequency of them, and number of deployments have a huge roll in this. I also feel that the IED threat has played a large roll in this. I would take firefights over the constant fear of being hit with an IED any day. I've been on both sides and definitely think that a year of being on the routes and being blown up and loosing people that way changes the chemicals in your brain in a more drastic way than firefights do. Firefights I felt like I had some sense of control. Definitely not all the time, but a good portion of them. The IED threat is just constant hopelessness as most counter measures don't work or are just circumvented. It was just Russian roulette for hours at a time, days on end.

Survivor guilt and alcohol abuse play another significant roll in my mind. The depression that accompanies SG along with alcohol and lowered inhibitions can equal a bad situation. Top marital, monetary, or child issues and that feeling of never being able to be happy again overwhelms their ability to think properly. Stupid choices are made that in a time of sobriety might not have been made.

An issue that happens is PCS's after returning. A soldier comes home, after lets say two deployments. He gets sent to a new unit so he no longer has his buddies to be there for him anymore. When he gets to his new unit, he gets thrown into the group that is leaving again soon because they have slots to fill to make them 100%. I know this happens and I hope they have fixed dwell time to stop this from going down.

Anyway just some rambling from me.
 
I really would love to see statistical data on that. I too am a combat vet and have seen/killed enemys of the united states, been shot at a shitload, had friends/coworkers killed, and have never had the urge to kill myself....nor has any of my peers. I call bullshit unless it's coming from the same group of FOBBITS that claim they got crazy PTSD from sitting on a base for a year......
 
I have tried to delve deeper into the statistics on suicides but there doesn't seem like there is a lot of data to really look into. Sure your typical soldier Z killed him or herself in this manner, rank, age, and branch. I have tried to locate jobs, number of deployments, length of those deployments, decompression times between deployments, time after returning from deployment, and family situations would be more telling as to why this is happening.

I have a strong suspicion that deployment lengths, frequency of them, and number of deployments have a huge roll in this. I also feel that the IED threat has played a large roll in this. I would take firefights over the constant fear of being hit with an IED any day. I've been on both sides and definitely think that a year of being on the routes and being blown up and loosing people that way changes the chemicals in your brain in a more drastic way than firefights do. Firefights I felt like I had some sense of control. Definitely not all the time, but a good portion of them. The IED threat is just constant hopelessness as most counter measures don't work or are just circumvented. It was just Russian roulette for hours at a time, days on end.

Survivor guilt and alcohol abuse play another significant roll in my mind. The depression that accompanies SG along with alcohol and lowered inhibitions can equal a bad situation. Top marital, monetary, or child issues and that feeling of never being able to be happy again overwhelms their ability to think properly. Stupid choices are made that in a time of sobriety might not have been made.

An issue that happens is PCS's after returning. A soldier comes home, after lets say two deployments. He gets sent to a new unit so he no longer has his buddies to be there for him anymore. When he gets to his new unit, he gets thrown into the group that is leaving again soon because they have slots to fill to make them 100%. I know this happens and I hope they have fixed dwell time to stop this from going down.

Anyway just some rambling from me.

dwell time? nope, they ain't fixed it worth a damn.
A lot of guys that came to the 173rd right before we deployed had a ton of dwell time. basically the rear-d makes their lives a living hell until they waive the dwell time and go downrange. hell, we had one sergeant that got to us that was slated to stay in the rear for the first six months of the deployment- He came downrange within a month because they basically had him on extra duty from 0630 til 0000L. Rear-D commander told him he was going to do his level best to take his rank if he didn't sign the waiver.

Then last year my friends PCS'd up here to Alaska, He's a MSG in a critical slot, but had 9 months of dwell time. So his BCT tried to PCS move him again to some post in the lower 48 within a month of him getting here. the only thing that stopped them was DA telling them that they would not pay to move his entire house worth of stuff 5600 miles until he finished his tour.

Looks good on paper, but it's just another broken promise. You should see how they treat soldiers that PCS to the unit all fucked up from PTSD from their previous tour. "Oh hey, you have a bunch of V device awards, purple heart, and were the only guy to survive a chinook crash in Sadr City last year, but you need to take the afternoons off every thursday to see a counsellor? Then Fuck you, Shitbag, we're gonna chapter you."

Tell me thats not wrong.
 
You have to remember that so much of this is staying in the spotlight now and is accepted as something that is prevalent among service members. On the same note, this is also the same thing that CREATES another problem. I believe a lot of the people that succumb to PTSD were in a way led into it. It is now in a way EXPECTED that after deployment, you're somehow messed up, or SHOULD have some of these problems. Sub-consciously, I believe a lot of people that might be having a factor of other problems convince themselves that they are effected more than they really are in the first place due to the atmosphere of our culture.

This type of warfare straight up sucks. No denying that. I agree with the IED threat statement above and the scars it creates watching people blow up and constantly thinking "I'm going to lose my legs". It's a HUGE factor in direct ground operation vets. I myself, along with other K-9 guys were most effected by this. We led the patrols everywhere and were responsible for everyone behind us. No more than a month in, I found myself accepting that I was going to lose a limb. A few more months in, I got a bit more careless than I should have and just didn't really care anymore. That's a shitty situation. Thankfully, I somehow made it out.

On that note, I have been attached to, with, and around some of the most war-hardened individuals that have been through more than most. The thing I noticed is that THESE guys don't have nearly as many problems as some of these other people claiming to be so messed up... Why? Motor transport guys with a couple deployments who suffer from "severe" PTSD and end up in jail, homeless, or dead while actual combat vets come out just fine. It all boils down to the person I suppose, but also the stereotype. I think a lot of it is just that. Convincing yourself you are "messed up" and letting it ruin your life. The guys that "should" have PTSD seem to see the bigger picture in life after going through so much.

I remember just a few months back sitting in TAPS listening to some of these people getting out talk about how they might "react" in civilian life. I had to laugh at them. "I have to sit in a booth facing the door ALL THE TIME." Really? No you don't. You want to think you do so you feel like you have some history. Combat camera chick: "I have to go inside during the 4th of July". Wow, that's strange. I sat outside with 20 other K-9 guys that were around a SHIT TON of explosions and had a great time. THESE are the things people play into in their minds, and also lie about. PTSD is obviously real... But I think it's getting out of hand. I don't understand it all and don't fully believe that as many people truly suffer from it as stated. We all were affected in some way, but that's life. You move on. It just sucks that a lot of people can't and let it combine with other shitty things in life to create a spiral.
 
dwell time? nope, they ain't fixed it worth a damn.
A lot of guys that came to the 173rd right before we deployed had a ton of dwell time. basically the rear-d makes their lives a living hell until they waive the dwell time and go downrange. hell, we had one sergeant that got to us that was slated to stay in the rear for the first six months of the deployment- He came downrange within a month because they basically had him on extra duty from 0630 til 0000L. Rear-D commander told him he was going to do his level best to take his rank if he didn't sign the waiver.

Then last year my friends PCS'd up here to Alaska, He's a MSG in a critical slot, but had 9 months of dwell time. So his BCT tried to PCS move him again to some post in the lower 48 within a month of him getting here. the only thing that stopped them was DA telling them that they would not pay to move his entire house worth of stuff 5600 miles until he finished his tour.

Looks good on paper, but it's just another broken promise. You should see how they treat soldiers that PCS to the unit all fucked up from PTSD from their previous tour. "Oh hey, you have a bunch of V device awards, purple heart, and were the only guy to survive a chinook crash in Sadr City last year, but you need to take the afternoons off every thursday to see a counsellor? Then Fuck you, Shitbag, we're gonna chapter you."

Tell me thats not wrong.

That's another thing. These are the type of situations that actually do create more of a problem with people suffering from it to begin with. "Proud" higher-ups that let these war-hero's rot away and then get out without ever having a chance. That is real shitty. Again though, not actually caused AS MUCH from the incidents itself, but by the way it's handled.
 
hell yeah, brother.

The guy that I alluded to, just before everything went to hell, my 1SG found out and took care of him. saved his marriage and career from Captain Douchenozzle.
He's the second soldier I've seen pulled back from the brink by Senior NCOs.

it all comes down to how supportive the Chain of Command is with issues like that.

Great analysis on the "expectation of being fucked up" btw.
 
You, Sir, are a douchenozzle.......

Couldn't think of anything intelligent to add to the conversation or just didn't even read the thread?

Fobbits and supposed "combat vet" non-combat MOS's that claim severe PTSD must all be true... They all add to the statistic. I guess it makes me a "douchenozzle" to second guess someones claim that moved dirt around Leatherneck all fucking deployment.

Thanks for the input, douchenozzle!
 
You, Sir, are a douchenozzle.......


Thats uncalled for. He presents a very valid point. I personaly have seen many soldiers and some have even admited, to scamming the system for benefits.

21 year old soldier who can get 50-100% disability for the rest of the life, being coached by other service members and even people in medical community (service and VA) on how to get rated.

PTSD is very real. It is also very over diagnosed. Ironicly the highest percentage is in non combat related jobs and from people who never left the fob/wounderland (Balad/BIAP/superbases).

Funny how all of my friends from the 75th rgt, who went through some of the roughest shit and saw much more "comabat', including their friends die, all seem to be getting on good with their lives. But the cook and supply clerk who never left the fob, have PTSD due to their traumatic expericne when the chow hall ran out lobster on friday night.
 
Some observations that I have noted are that you don't see the older salty bastards losing their shit and haveing these PTSD episodes. It has from my experience been younger soldiers that have only come in to the new PC military.

What I mean is we used to be able to sing cadiences about killing kids and calling enemies derragatiory trems. What this did was desensatize the warfighter allowing him or her to go out there and do their job and not give a shit. Also the new PC military cares about peoples feelings. Fuck feelings. New Privates are given so much more leeway now days for fear of an IG or EO complaint. They get the false sense that they have power and rights. This is the soldier that sees a dead body and flips out.
One more thing leaders are afraid to make life or death decisions. Gone are the days of sending guys out on a mission where there will be casualties. Commanders used to send their men out on missions where they knew they all weren't coming back. Now days if there is a chance of someone getting the commanders won't even let it go off.

I guess What I am trying to say is the Mil wont let you "Harden Up" the youngins anymore.
 
Couldn't think of anything intelligent to add to the conversation or just didn't even read the thread?

Fobbits and supposed "combat vet" non-combat MOS's that claim severe PTSD must all be true... They all add to the statistic. I guess it makes me a "douchenozzle" to second guess someones claim that moved dirt around Leatherneck all fucking deployment.

Thanks for the input, douchenozzle!

When all the shit settles, I really belive that IED's are the real differnce with peoples pychology. Ignoring the fact that Americans have been pussified, have an entitled mentalty, and generaly are not good with handling adversity (inlcuding continuted pussification of the military by social engineering and "fairness").... IED's are the equivelent of a sniper you can never catch.

Its one thing to be in an ambush, and be able to fight back. When an IED goes off, rarley are you able to catch the perp and there is not much you can do but clean up the mess. When someone is wounded or killed it just magnifies this, and there is no one to take the frustration and anger out on.

Here is a nice example of those fuckers getting caught:

Christmas Eve Night, 2004. A squad from my company was doing long haul trucking and security to a base near ramadi. As soon as they left, my buddy saw a house flashing their lights (he was point vechile) and radioed to look out for threats. He saw 3, 155 arty rounds bound with det cord on the side of the road, and radioed it in. They pulled past it and instructed all the other vehciles to stay put. Some fobbit e5 who just had to get her ass outside the wire so she could get her a nifty CAB, was driving a vehicle with my buddy randy in it. This twat, ignoring the orders on the radio, pulled right up next to the IED and stopped. This was on Randy's side of the 915 (uparmoered Freightliner) and right next to a 100 gallon tank of JP8 that was just topped off. Lights flash on the house one more time, and Boom, off goes the IED. Whole truck is covered in burning fuel. The bitch jumps out driver side and runs away, leaving randy there. He cant get over the console beacuse of the radios and shit, plus hes wearing full rattle. Instead of burning alive, he jumps down into the burning fuel and gets 3rd degree burns on most of his body (Randy survived, after over a year in Brooke Burn center, and was even visited by President Bush). Mike and the PLT SGT come barreling up to help their buddies out. Mike is a civilian firefighter/paramedic and ignore the order to stay in the truck beacuse of secondaries. He runs over to randy, and puts the fire out. While he is working on randy, the secondary goes off. It send a golfball size piece of shrap right under his IBA since he was bent over covering randy up. The PLT SGT also gets hit with shrap and he is messed up pretty bad.

3rd ID QRF comes up and asses the situation. They tell them about the house and the lights. The bradleys spot the house with thermals and see that 4 people are looking through the windows or are in the upper floor of the house. They ask if they can raid the house, and wisley, 3rd ID tells them they got it. They end up getting the 4 guys. A father and his three sons. det line goes to house, they find residue on them and are detained.

Mike died 15 days later at walter reed. Randy was able to recover somewhat and was discharged. PLT SGT recovered and last I talked to him, was doing well. Bitch from BN was lauded as some kind of hero, who got a BS w/V. Mike was awarded the SS posthumously.

Father and his 3 piece of shit sons were all arested. They were all tried and convicted. All four of them were executed.

That will never bring back Mike or heal the wounds the others sustained. But it sure as fuck helps us sleep at night knowing they are dead.
 
Sometimes its very hard to recognize when someone has PTSD. Its a shame.

Even harder when so many claim it and the system has to weed through real cases vs. "might not have it" or "straight up lying"... It makes it that much harder for those that truly do suffer from it to be taken seriously and get the help in the first place. Like the example before, the higher-ups that are assholes towards those that are suffering from it probably have also encountered those that are just trying to get out of shit or don't want to fulfill their obligation of a deployment. It's a stupid cycle that needs to stop. There are too many people in the military that SHOULDN'T have joined in the first place that make others look like shit in their service.
 
Even harder when so many claim it and the system has to weed through real cases vs. "might not have it" or "straight up lying"... It makes it that much harder for those that truly do suffer from it to be taken seriously and get the help in the first place. Like the example before, the higher-ups that are assholes towards those that are suffering from it probably have also encountered those that are just trying to get out of shit or don't want to fulfill their obligation of a deployment. It's a stupid cycle that needs to stop. There are too many people in the military that SHOULDN'T have joined in the first place that make others look like shit in their service.

I never understood that deployment shirking attitude... seen it a few times and it still doesn't make any damned sense- my Supply NCO used a PTSD claim to get out of the last deployment (he never left the wire in his two prior deployments, and the one I was on with him prior, he sat at BAF the whole time).

Hell, Half the fun of going in the service is that opportunity to seriously fuck shit up. yeah, it comes with some crappy parts, but "They" PAID US to wreak Havoc and give us a near-endless supply of shit with which to fuck other shit up.

But Karma has a way of biting guys in the ass- About a month before we deployed, when my Supply NCO and my other buddy who had copped out signed up for an MWR PTSD therapy event at Edelweiss (MWR resort in the Bavarian Alps), I forget how long it was, but it was at least a month- The day they left, they had spent the whole morning shamming out by the smoke shack, and were joking about how they were going to drink and party every night and all that bullshit while the rest of the Troop was out packing Connexes until 0100L. couple days later we hear back from them- Apparently they had forgotten to read the fine print that specified that they were pretty much on lockdown the whole time- no smoking/drinking, not allowed to leave the building, had to be in their rooms when not in therapy... and all of it was small group sessions filled with soldiers with real PTSD who had been ordered to attend.
From the tone in their phone calls begging the unit to get them out of there, I have a feeling that things didn't go so well.
Guess they should have just fulfilled their obligations and deployed, it's not like they were going to be out in sector with the rest of us, they were both slated to be in BAF running supply again!

Fucked up thing is, on that deployment we had soldiers who were actually fucked in the head from the previous deployment, who deployed and did freakin awesome, and came home better than they were when they left. don't ask me how that works, my troop got shot at and blown up about 10 times more often on the second deployment. I guess they just got to a point at which they heard the first RPG shwoosh by, grinned, looked at their soldiers, said "I remember my first beer!!" and proceeded to kick maximum ass.
 
I went and saw Lt Col Grossman this past fall.

He commented that the suicide stat is not in the correct context.

Normally the military has a suicide rate about half of the same demographic of people in the US.

Recently the suicide rate has climbed to almost equal the suicide rate amongst the same demographic

So if men age 18-22 committ suicide at x % then the military is now having soldiers age 18-22 committ suicide at almost the same rate

Does anyone know if the current rate is now higher that the civilian peer group?

The rate has grown and a solution needs to be put in place. It seems like the extended tours is taking its toll.
 
What's the average of Afghan/Iraq vets. The report indicates the average age of the sucides is between 54 & 60.

Another question, more US Personal died in Vietnam do to explosions, mines booby traps, etc then in Iraq/Afgan but there isn't the sucide cases attributed to that. (A fact over shadowed by the hugh numbers of those killed in Vietnam).

This report leaves more questions then it answers.
 
Some observations that I have noted are that you don't see the older salty bastards losing their shit and haveing these PTSD episodes. It has from my experience been younger soldiers that have only come in to the new PC military.

What I mean is we used to be able to sing cadiences about killing kids and calling enemies derragatiory trems. What this did was desensatize the warfighter allowing him or her to go out there and do their job and not give a shit. Also the new PC military cares about peoples feelings. Fuck feelings. New Privates are given so much more leeway now days for fear of an IG or EO complaint. They get the false sense that they have power and rights. This is the soldier that sees a dead body and flips out.
One more thing leaders are afraid to make life or death decisions. Gone are the days of sending guys out on a mission where there will be casualties. Commanders used to send their men out on missions where they knew they all weren't coming back. Now days if there is a chance of someone getting the commanders won't even let it go off.

I guess What I am trying to say is the Mil wont let you "Harden Up" the youngins anymore.

There are of course a lot of fakers trying to get benefits out of claiming PTSD, but the kid's gloves that Drill Sergeants and NCO's are forced to have when dealing with new soldiers are part of the problem too. You have to train killers. Kids fresh out of High School do not have the mental toughness to cope with the threat of imminent death/danger or seeing their buddies get torn up. Drill Sergeant's used to have the necessary task of hardening these boys into men and making them killers but the policies pushed through the military lately do not allow this. Just makes us less effective as a fighting force and more susceptible to psychological injury.

Good to see you around again BTW Whitey.