Hunting & Fishing 223/5.56 for deer. Who here does it !
- Thread starter DrDeath
- Start date
Check your local game regulations first. In some areas it's legal and in some it is not.
I never have. I've only hunted with .270 WIN and .308 WIN however this year I might have to hunt with my 5.56 NATO/.223 REM as my .308 WIN is in pieces waiting to go to LRI for their R700 accurizing GB. It'll either be that or a 12 GA slug and quite frankly I am leaning towards using a 12 GA slug.
If I do take my .223 out this year my bullet choice will be Remington Corelokt or Winchester Super-X and a heavy for caliber bullet. Something in the high 60 grains and up bullet weight.
I never have. I've only hunted with .270 WIN and .308 WIN however this year I might have to hunt with my 5.56 NATO/.223 REM as my .308 WIN is in pieces waiting to go to LRI for their R700 accurizing GB. It'll either be that or a 12 GA slug and quite frankly I am leaning towards using a 12 GA slug.
If I do take my .223 out this year my bullet choice will be Remington Corelokt or Winchester Super-X and a heavy for caliber bullet. Something in the high 60 grains and up bullet weight.
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Done it, and would do it again in a second. 75 Amax works great. As soon as SAC gets the DTA .223 conversion done, I'll be doing it again!
I loaded ammo for a lad that dropped a large mule deer, no tracking as it was a spine hit. Bullet was a 53 grain barnes triple shock as his rifle didn’t have a twist to support the heavy weights.
I hunt deer with 223. I use Corbon 55 gr and 4 out of 5 deer have dropped where shot, the other ran 50 yards. Wound cavities were all impressive. Also I grabbed the wrong mag once and shot a doe with a 45gr HP winchester white box, the doe dropped where shot and had a great wound cavity.
I've used it for damage tag deer and it worked as wells as anything else. FMJ in the head, Vmax's behind the shoulder, and 75Amax in or behind the shoulder all did the trick. They can run with any round short of a howitzer but I never noticed any more or less drop in their tracks than with other rounds. Shot placement is always key regardless of what you're shooting them with.
A great off the shelf 223 load is the 62gr fusion.
A great off the shelf 223 load is the 62gr fusion.
Using a 223AI, 53 and 62 TSX are great bullets.
I dropped a 200# tree eater at 175 yards with a 62, just stiffened up and teetered over.
75 Amax has only seen head and neck shots here, wicked on flesh out of an 8 twist.
2 with 75 Hornady BTHP, worked well under 100.
55 FMJ, way too much lead splatter from fragmentation, two exit holes.
I dropped a 200# tree eater at 175 yards with a 62, just stiffened up and teetered over.
75 Amax has only seen head and neck shots here, wicked on flesh out of an 8 twist.
2 with 75 Hornady BTHP, worked well under 100.
55 FMJ, way too much lead splatter from fragmentation, two exit holes.
Nosler partitions and Barnes X-bullets have killed a large # of caribou for me over the last 20 yrs. (55-60 grains) Barnes penetrated better through the heavy bone and lost virtually no weight. I never lost an animal shot w either bullet, and nearly all were DRT. I do limit my shots to about 250 yds however, due to poor performance noted beyond that. These bou are about the same size as an Iowa whitetail.
Never used it for deer, but have used it on pig. Not ideal, but 69gr ball ammo does a number on a hog's neck vertebrae. In this case it broke the neck, tumbled and took the right jugular out as the bullet came out the other side. DRT; didn't even roll over (looked like he was already on a platter). Dressed out at 200lbs...
Again, not ideal, but as mentioned, bullet placement is critical. In this case, an M-4 was all I had, and they were a nuisance that the land owner wanted removed...
Again, not ideal, but as mentioned, bullet placement is critical. In this case, an M-4 was all I had, and they were a nuisance that the land owner wanted removed...
Yup.
223AI and 80gr AMAX, 5.56 AR and 77gr Noslers.
So far both have been head shots at 65-70yd, but as one might imagine DRT. I'd have no qualms using either bullet for a heart/lung shot.
223AI and 80gr AMAX, 5.56 AR and 77gr Noslers.
So far both have been head shots at 65-70yd, but as one might imagine DRT. I'd have no qualms using either bullet for a heart/lung shot.
OP,
Been hunting whitetail with the AR15/M16 since '79. Most .224" bullets available back then did not yield acceptable terminal performance for use on deer-sized game so you had to use the accuracy of the .223/5.56MM cartridge to your best advantage. That has changed. The 70gr. TSX driven at 5.56MM pressure works very well. So well in fact that I have no recovered bullets to show you because all have yielded exit wounds, something I require of any bullet used on whitetail. Therefore I will post a pic of some water-shot expansion test bullets as an indicator of what you can expect the bullet to do on flesh & bone. Barnes also expansion tests their TSX bullet using water-shots & has indicated the minimum velocity required for the 70gr. TSX to expand in water is 1800 FPS & 1900 FPS for their other standard .224 TSX bullets. Barnes also indicated that you can expect TSX bullet to expand at slightly lower velocity on impact with flesh & bone. Just to keep it clear, the proprietary BHA 5.56MM 50gr. TSX "auto-glass" factory loading requires 2300 FPS according to Jeff Hoffman from BHA. And I am not just shooting suitcase-sized does. The 240lb. 10 point pictured was barely above our management program minimum. Just like on the does, the TSX bullet smashed thru the spine & kept on going out the other side. The 70gr. TSX bullet has what it takes: accuracy, double-diameter expansion, 100% weight retention, & deep penetration. IMO, it is a game-changer for the .223/5.56MM cartridge.
Water-shot expansion tests fired from 10" 1x7 Colt barrel: MV 2543 FPS. Even when fired from this 10" Colt entry-gun barrel, the 70gr. TSX bullet will still have the requisite 1800 FPS minimum expansion velocity at very close to 300yds. The M193 55gr. FMJ bullet will not even fragment at the muzzle when fired out of this same 10" barrel. This is not a guess.
(5) shot group@100yds. with 14.5" Colt barrel: MV 2733 FPS
Been hunting whitetail with the AR15/M16 since '79. Most .224" bullets available back then did not yield acceptable terminal performance for use on deer-sized game so you had to use the accuracy of the .223/5.56MM cartridge to your best advantage. That has changed. The 70gr. TSX driven at 5.56MM pressure works very well. So well in fact that I have no recovered bullets to show you because all have yielded exit wounds, something I require of any bullet used on whitetail. Therefore I will post a pic of some water-shot expansion test bullets as an indicator of what you can expect the bullet to do on flesh & bone. Barnes also expansion tests their TSX bullet using water-shots & has indicated the minimum velocity required for the 70gr. TSX to expand in water is 1800 FPS & 1900 FPS for their other standard .224 TSX bullets. Barnes also indicated that you can expect TSX bullet to expand at slightly lower velocity on impact with flesh & bone. Just to keep it clear, the proprietary BHA 5.56MM 50gr. TSX "auto-glass" factory loading requires 2300 FPS according to Jeff Hoffman from BHA. And I am not just shooting suitcase-sized does. The 240lb. 10 point pictured was barely above our management program minimum. Just like on the does, the TSX bullet smashed thru the spine & kept on going out the other side. The 70gr. TSX bullet has what it takes: accuracy, double-diameter expansion, 100% weight retention, & deep penetration. IMO, it is a game-changer for the .223/5.56MM cartridge.
Water-shot expansion tests fired from 10" 1x7 Colt barrel: MV 2543 FPS. Even when fired from this 10" Colt entry-gun barrel, the 70gr. TSX bullet will still have the requisite 1800 FPS minimum expansion velocity at very close to 300yds. The M193 55gr. FMJ bullet will not even fragment at the muzzle when fired out of this same 10" barrel. This is not a guess.
(5) shot group@100yds. with 14.5" Colt barrel: MV 2733 FPS
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223/5.56 for deer. Who here does it !
Any .223 bullet that makes a .224 caliber hole.
Any .223 bullet that makes a .224 caliber hole.
It depends.
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SSA makes a very fine 5.56MM pressure 70gr. TSX loading. It uses a spherical double based powder, probably a non-canister blend, which makes very high MV while only generating approx. 55,700 PSI. My fastest canister-grade TAC powder handload generates near full 5.56MM NATO pressure of 62,350 PSI yet is still a little slower than the SSA loading. Several other manufacturers have jumped on the band wagon in the last few years but AFAIK they are making only .223 pressure 70gr. TSX loadings: ASYM, Ted Nugent, etc. Getting more & more 55gr. & 62gr. TSX loadings out there in addition to the 70gr. TSX loads.
EDIT: Southwest Ammunition has announced that they now have 5.56MM pressure 70gr. TSX cartridges back in stock: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...3518-556-70gr-tsx-loaded-ammunition-sale.html
EDIT: Southwest Ammunition has announced that they now have 5.56MM pressure 70gr. TSX cartridges back in stock: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...3518-556-70gr-tsx-loaded-ammunition-sale.html
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I used it on several small white tail when I was younger. I wont anymore, not when I have a wide selection of more powerful rifles available. Just my choice.
I shot a truck load of pa whitetails when I was younger with a 222. I used a 60gr sierra hp. Most drt, some ran 40-50yds. I have even shot them with a 22hornet and 35gr vmax, so long as you can place your shot and pass on a non ideal shot you will be fine with a 223.
Doubt the 70 will work with a 1:9, marginal with a 1:8.
However, there's still the 62 TSX and 55 TSX...
However, there's still the 62 TSX and 55 TSX...
[MENTION=31875]DrDeath[/MENTION], the circumstances of the shot and your capabilities should dictate your comfort level. If you feel comfortable with shooting 8-10" targets at 400yds, then you should be fine if a deer presents a good shot. If you or the deer are not in line with the aforementioned scenario, then dont take the shot. Or maneuver or wait for something better. This could be applied to any simlar animal, caliber, or distance.
The all-copper construction TSX bullets are very long for bullet weight. IMO, the 70gr. TSX works best with 1x7 but Barnes says they should work fine with 1x8. The 62gr. TSX bullet was designed for use in 1x9 twist barrels. The 55gr. and lighter TSX bullets were designed for use in the 1x12 twist barrels found on the old school AR15/M16 rifles. The heavier TSX bullets will retain velocity/expansion potential at longer distances.
I have dropped too many whitetail with the SMK bullets, the 69gr. then the 77gr. once it was introduced, to disagree with you. And on broadside shots into the vitals or neck, I have never failed to achieve an exit wound with a 5.56MM pressure loading of either bullet. It did not matter if the bullet impacted a rib on entry, exit, or both. But I did shy away from anything other than a perfect broadside shot into the vitals or clean neck shots. Just did not trust that little SMK bullet on severe raking shots. I will not hesitate to take a raking shot with the 5.56MM 70gr. TSX load but have not had to do it yet. Some of the wounds produced by both 69gr. & 77gr. SMK OTM bullets were impressive especially when considering the small caliber (below).
Exit wound on 150 pound 8 point produced by very high velocity 5.56MM 77gr. SMK fired from 24" barrel striking the vertebral column@ under 100yds.
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I've seen deer taken with .223 and 5.56mm at 40yds, 110, 311, and 613yds. All were DRT (or within 20 feet). Rounds used were 60 grain V-MAX.
I've seen elk at 3, 104, 110, and 562 yds. The first three were 60 V-MAX and the last was 40 V-MAX. The farthest one ran was the 110 yard shot and he made it about 20 yards.
There's a lot of emotion out there about using .223 for big game, but if you can hit the vitals, it does everything and more that's needed. In fact, the 562 yard elk had already been nicked with a 7mm Rem Mag, so it was a pretty obvious demonstration that caliber has nothing to do with hunting ethics, shot placement does.
BTW, the 562 yard shot-- the V-MAX exploded and made an excellent wound profile. This was with a 16 inch barrel, so the "fragmentation threshold" of the AR is hundreds of yards greater than most realize, if you choose the right ammo.
I've seen elk at 3, 104, 110, and 562 yds. The first three were 60 V-MAX and the last was 40 V-MAX. The farthest one ran was the 110 yard shot and he made it about 20 yards.
There's a lot of emotion out there about using .223 for big game, but if you can hit the vitals, it does everything and more that's needed. In fact, the 562 yard elk had already been nicked with a 7mm Rem Mag, so it was a pretty obvious demonstration that caliber has nothing to do with hunting ethics, shot placement does.
BTW, the 562 yard shot-- the V-MAX exploded and made an excellent wound profile. This was with a 16 inch barrel, so the "fragmentation threshold" of the AR is hundreds of yards greater than most realize, if you choose the right ammo.
I know were talking deer but last year I took a coyote at 250-275ish with a 77cc moving at 2670fps and the bullet punched through both shoulder bones leaving a 2.5-3" exit...
Yup, bigger bullets and more case capacity makes up for shitty marksmanship...
I've shot a bunch of hogs with .223 and most have died where they were standing. As everybody has said above, shot placement is key. I have killed a number of Texas whitetails with a .22-250 using 50 grain ballistic tips. Shots were chosen very carefully and were all under 200 yards.
I have a freezer full of meat saying it can be done, but if I'm on a trophy hunt, I'm grabbing something bigger. If it was all I had, I'd still go hunting.
I have a freezer full of meat saying it can be done, but if I'm on a trophy hunt, I'm grabbing something bigger. If it was all I had, I'd still go hunting.
.
Recovered 70 gn TSX.
Worked good
Very nice looking 70gr. TSX bullet. When you have time, give us details: barrel length, specific load, range to target, where it hit, etc. to give us a better idea of over-all terminal performance on the animal. TIA.
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Is it legal to hunt elk in ID with .223? 500+'with a 40g Vmax is a hell of a chance, I can only assume it was made because the elk had been hit already and was an "emergency shot" to get him down?
I'll agree with the caliber thing, its not as important as its made out to be. I once Pulled my brothers Cummins up the mountain with a Nissan..... Horsepower is no substitute for good driving.
I would love to see some expansion tests on the 60gr vmax at extended ranges. I have taken deer with the round at 375 and 480 yards. Both were spinal shots and both were drt
That was at 125ish yards out of an 18" AR15 around 2700fps
Recovered from a 150ish pound pig.
Pig was facing me and the shot hit just in front of her right shoulder blade. Traveled all the way through and came to rest under the skin on the left hind leg.
I took a doe last year with it as well and was a complete pass through but very little/no blood trail. Deer ran about 50 yards.
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Yes, it's legal in Idaho. And yes, that was the reason for taking the shot. However, that shot (and the results) got me researching bullets, and exactly what is required to quickly take down a large animal...
I now use 40, 50, and 60 grain V-MAX ammo almost exclusively to hunt deer and elk. There's not a whole lot of chance involved, even at the longer ranges (it's been repeated several times). If you hit the vitals, they fall hard. If not, you probably shouldn't have taken the shot.
People say, "what if you miss the vitals?". Well, so what if I do? A butt or gut shot with a .308 will require a second round into the vitals, so IF (hasn't happened yet) I miss the vitals with a .223, I'll take the same follow up shot I'd take if I was using any other caliber.
FWIW, don't expect bullets to act in game like they act in gel. A V-MAX will punch clean through an elk if you hit only lungs (no heart) even if it hits a rib on both sides. If you even nick the heart, it's an explosive mess.
I would too. From my own un-scientific experience, I'd say the 40 grain V-MAX is much more consistent to expand (explode) once you get past 400 yards. The 60 grain pills seem to need more velocity to do that.
my daughter will be using a 60gr nosler partition this year on her 1st deer hunt with me, we shall see how it goes....i have confidence in her shot placement so i think the round will do its job as long as she does hers!
a friend of mine in montana took an 8 pt whitetail buck this year with his AR with a 14.5" barrel with a 62grn sp at 175yrds , only ran 30yrds and dropped...
a friend of mine in montana took an 8 pt whitetail buck this year with his AR with a 14.5" barrel with a 62grn sp at 175yrds , only ran 30yrds and dropped...
I would tend to agree given my small sample size too. But, what I have hypothesized as well is that at slower speeds (past 400) the 60grain vmax starts to act like a more traditional soft point and that you actually get some good expansion…...
We use the AR for deer. 62 TSX over 25gr RL15. The boys are great shots with it because there is no recoil. I am convinced that if they were to shoot a higher caliber with more recoil, they would not have as many deer as they do.
Granted, they are not 300 yard shots with 6 inch exit wounds, but it has done a superb job to 150.
Granted, they are not 300 yard shots with 6 inch exit wounds, but it has done a superb job to 150.
77 smks or Hornady BTHP 75's work great!
Appreciate your posting the details of your TSX kills. And I get pretty much the same results with the 5.56MM 70gr. TSX myself. Barnes gel testing for LE indicates the 5.56MM 70gr. TSX does the most damage from impact to 9" after entry. But unlike the non-expanding/fragmenting OTM bullets & rapidly expanding/disintegrating varmint bullets, the fully expanded TSX bullet remains completely intact continuing to penetrate to about 18" or so. Works mighty fine for my purposes. Good hunting!
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I got this doe with my Frankenstein ar15 last year shooting cheap monarch 55g sp @102yrds she folded up like a lawn chair. I would do it again in a heart beat as I'm very comfortable with that rifle and that particular load I've never shot one in the shoulder so I can't comment on those shots. Just my .02
Funny thing, I shot a deer many years ago with a 75gr Vmax out of a 25-06, velocity was a modest 31-3200fps. Had planned on a head shot (doe hunt) but had to make a quick one and aimed for the shoulder anyways. Shot was under 100 yds, and deer went head over heals flop. The bullet broke through both shoulder's (bones and all) and pulverized the goodies.
Sometimes I think bullets just do weird things.
I will be using this line down the road. That is awesome! Thanks for the laugh.
Nice write up LEID.
I've always used the 77 gr Sierra in my 1/7. 24.7 grs RL15.
I ordered some 70 grs TSX & they weren't easy to find. I intend to wring them out on hogs hopefully this weekend.
Regards,
relentless
I've always used the 77 gr Sierra in my 1/7. 24.7 grs RL15.
I ordered some 70 grs TSX & they weren't easy to find. I intend to wring them out on hogs hopefully this weekend.
Regards,
relentless
For those that do not reload I have had great success with the winchester 64gr powerpoint.
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