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25 Creedmoor

Supersubes said:
Im using the BJ Rev 2 reamer, which has .115 freebore and a .290 neck. Loaded neck dia in lapua 6.5 brass measures .2845, and annealed/fired cases measure .2885. I think they designed this for “thick” necks, but its ideal imo.

This is my standard load with 135 bergers at .030 jump in a chamber with ~400 rounds on it.

View attachment 8200963View attachment 8200964
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Dude, that is PERFECT seating depth! No lost capacity, and no excess pressure spikes from pushing it down into the column. 👍🏼

Do you have your reamer? If so, would you be willing to rent it so I could cut 1 barrel? If I end up not finding the perfect prefit and then have my local professional smith (he's been doing it 40 years, so no worries about him messing it up or anything) cutting my barrel from a blank, or if they require me to provide my own? I would just buy a reamer, but I can't find one anywhere since BJ has essentially gone under...
 
Does anybody know anything about the .25 Creedmoor Alpha spec reamer? Preferred Barrels has both the .25 CM BJ and .25 CM Alpha. Is that spec'd for the Alpha Munitions .25 CM brass?

Screenshot 2023-08-09 at 8.41.14 PM.png
 
FuhQ said:
Dude, that is PERFECT seating depth! No lost capacity, and no excess pressure spikes from pushing it down into the column. 👍🏼

Do you have your reamer? If so, would you be willing to rent it so I could cut 1 barrel? If I end up not finding the perfect prefit and then have my local professional smith (he's been doing it 40 years, so no worries about him messing it up or anything) cutting my barrel from a blank, or if they require me to provide my own? I would just buy a reamer, but I can't find one anywhere since BJ has essentially gone under...
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Pm inbound.
 
coldboremiracle said:
They shoot fantastic, I'm still loading them with H4350. I was a little let down that they aren't as fast as my 131's tho. The 131's were over 2900 with no pressure signs, but these 134's at 2850 are getting close to too much pressure. At least with this powder.
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What your charge weight to make those velocities with each bullet?
 
Supersubes said:
They could be pushed faster than all the current offerings without pressure, and they had a higher bc.
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I was curious what CBM had for opinion because I value it.

.330 for the Blackjack vs .334 for the Berger Hybrid isn't "higher"
Was the 131 better than everything else when it was released...clearly yes, but that doesn't appear to be the case right now.
You gotta define "higher"
Is the G7 higher for the weight? Seems to be...but it's not actually a higher G7.
.330 / 131gr is .00252 per grain of bullet
.334/ 135gr is .00247 per grain of bullet
So if you choose to push both to the same speed (which you can) then it comes down to price and or availability.
I guess it comes down to ... how fast do you wanna push them
 
c_bass16 said:
I was curious what CBM had for opinion because I value it.

.330 for the Blackjack vs .334 for the Berger Hybrid isn't "higher"
Was the 131 better than everything else when it was released...clearly yes, but that doesn't appear to be the case right now.
You gotta define "higher"
Is the G7 higher for the weight? Seems to be...but it's not actually a higher G7.
.330 / 131gr is .00252 per grain of bullet
.334/ 135gr is .00247 per grain of bullet
So if you choose to push both to the same speed (which you can) then it comes down to price and or availability.
I guess it comes down to ... how fast do you wanna push them
Click to expand...

My calculated G7 BC for the Berger 135 is .344. In Applied Ballistics I have to "true" MV to 2870, rather than the actual 2820 from three different devices. 4DOF my AFF is .95-.94. I have not run enough 134s to know about them yet. I have not shot any 131s. I have not doped wind yet, but a 6mph +- 2 is not a factor with these bullets.

My average group with the 135s is .3 MOA over last 20 3-shot groups at 100 yards. I think my great BC is tied to either the bullets being nearly perfect or my barrel being great or both.

You have to look at BC and dispersion.
 
Oldloser said:
My calculated G7 BC for the Berger 135 is .344. In Applied Ballistics I have to "true" MV to 2870, rather than the actual 2820 from three different devices. 4DOF my AFF is .95-.94. I have not run enough 134s to know about them yet. I have not shot any 131s. I have not doped wind yet, but a 6mph +- 2 is not a factor with these bullets.

My average group with the 135s is .3 MOA over last 20 3-shot groups at 100 yards. I think my great BC is tied to either the bullets being nearly perfect or my barrel being great or both.

You have to look at BC and dispersion.
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Oh I agree completely, my match rifle is also right in the .3 MOA range. I was looking through my phone for the dam groups and couldn't find it, I know they are in my data book at home.
With a 25" pipe and RL26...I'm right at 3000 fps.
Easy to ascertain how many rounds down the tube when you only have one .257 cal cartridge...I bought 1000 of the 135 Hybrids and there two full boxes left and one partial...so somewhere around 750 fired.
20220627_203740~2.jpg


found them...
20230830_211432.jpg20230830_211445.jpg
 
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c_bass16 said:
I was curious what CBM had for opinion because I value it.

.330 for the Blackjack vs .334 for the Berger Hybrid isn't "higher"
Was the 131 better than everything else when it was released...clearly yes, but that doesn't appear to be the case right now.
You gotta define "higher"
Is the G7 higher for the weight? Seems to be...but it's not actually a higher G7.
.330 / 131gr is .00252 per grain of bullet
.334/ 135gr is .00247 per grain of bullet
So if you choose to push both to the same speed (which you can) then it comes down to price and or availability.
I guess it comes down to ... how fast do you wanna push them
Click to expand...
He’ll be along to give you his .02, I was giving you mine.

I used .345 g7, who uses .330? Seem to recall @coldboremiracle using .340. I use .334 for the 135, which is dead on with AB out of my gun. Virtually nobody shoots 135 bergers as fast as they shot the blackjacks, there’s about 100 fps between them approx. I looked at my last delivered blackjack order. 2000 of them were .37/each after shipping. What are the bergers, .58/each or thereabouts? The Ace was a better and less expensive bullet.
 
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Supersubes said:
He’ll be along to give you his .02, I was giving you mine.

I used .345 g7, who uses .330? Seem to recall @coldboremiracle using .340. I use .334 for the 135, which is dead on with AB out of my gun. Virtually nobody shoots 135 bergers as fast as they shot the blackjacks, there’s about 100 fps between them approx. I looked at my last delivered blackjack order. 2000 of them were .37/each after shipping. What are the bergers, .58/each or thereabouts? The Ace was a better and less expensive bullet.
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.330 is the number I saw BlackJack advertising in 2018...
BlackJack.jpeg


...and it's still the number UnknownMunitions has published on Out Of Stock 25 Creed ammo using the 131 bullet.
I don't make the news...I just report it.
I never got a chance to shoot them so I am not making any claims...but...Tell me one business on earth that consistently publishes an advertised BC that's lower than what it actually is? I'll wait.
131blk.jpeg
 
Supersubes said:
I used .345 g7, who uses .330? Seem to recall @coldboremiracle using .340. I use .334 for the 135, which is dead on with AB out of my gun. Virtually nobody shoots 135 bergers as fast as they shot the blackjacks, there’s about 100 fps between them approx. I looked at my last delivered blackjack order. 2000 of them were .37/each after shipping. What are the bergers, .58/each or thereabouts? The Ace was a better and less expensive bullet.
Click to expand...
^This. I always used .340 and was DFN on everything out to around a mile. Reliable enough to put a cold bore impact on a mule deer at just over 1100 yds and put him right down. Velocity was always great even from my 22" Xcaliber, I was always 2900+ with no pressure signs and .5 and typically better accuracy. I would buy as many of the 131's as I could if they were available, but at Bergers price I'd rather shoot something cheaper like my 6mm's. When I shot the 131's out of my 257 Blackjack they were some disgusting number like 3400 FPS and hit 1K with like 4.9 MILS or something. Christ himself would have to talk me out of the 131's I've got left, or even to trade them for something else.

If anyone is interested: 257 Blackjack
 

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I ran .351 g7 for the 131 ACE in 2 different 25sst’s. When I talked to blackjack they had told me their bc numbers were conservative and most ppl were running around .340
I hope Sierra eventually starts selling them, but I doubt it will be at 33cents/bullet I paid for them in bulk at the initial BJ release.
 
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Supersubes said:
He’ll be along to give you his .02, I was giving you mine.

I used .345 g7, who uses .330? Seem to recall @coldboremiracle using .340. I use .334 for the 135, which is dead on with AB out of my gun. Virtually nobody shoots 135 bergers as fast as they shot the blackjacks, there’s about 100 fps between them approx. I looked at my last delivered blackjack order. 2000 of them were .37/each after shipping. What are the bergers, .58/each or thereabouts? The Ace was a better and less expensive bullet.
Click to expand...
Bergers were .37/each 3 years ago too. Blackjacks are gone, kaput.
 
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coldboremiracle said:
They shoot fantastic, I'm still loading them with H4350. I was a little let down that they aren't as fast as my 131's tho. The 131's were over 2900 with no pressure signs, but these 134's at 2850 are getting close to too much pressure. At least with this powder.
Click to expand...
You should try Winchester StaBall 6.5 powder... I gained over 200 FPS (safely) in my 20" 7mm-08 pushing Berger 175 Elite Hunters. I was absolutely floored. It did what they advertised (150+ FPS over your other powders, safely). I was only averaging 2403 with Varget, and ended up at 2614 with StaBall 6.5.

IMG_2015.jpeg
 
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The 135s a good bullet, but the 131 was superior. In my 7tw barrels, I used a 345g7 and the bullet shot very well at 2910 and 2860 from 26" barrels using H4350. I run a 334g7 with the 135s ar 2850 from a 7.5tw 28" barrel. They shoot very well. The 131 could be ran faster with better bc. I still have some left, believe around 1k, but they just used for hunting now. Not willing to get rid of them.
 
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Supersubes said:
He’ll be along to give you his .02, I was giving you mine.

I used .345 g7, who uses .330? Seem to recall @coldboremiracle using .340. I use .334 for the 135, which is dead on with AB out of my gun. Virtually nobody shoots 135 bergers as fast as they shot the blackjacks, there’s about 100 fps between them approx. I looked at my last delivered blackjack order. 2000 of them were .37/each after shipping. What are the bergers, .58/each or thereabouts? The Ace was a better and less expensive bullet.
Click to expand...
Kinda like the 115 DTAC Sierra makes too. Highly underrated bullet at a very affordable price point
 
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Supersubes said:
Exactly like that!
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Sierra makes some excellent bullets, unfortunately they rarely produce them! Their heavy for cal tmk are phenomenal killing bullets, and they just don't produce them. Their business model is garbage for us consumers. I'm sure the Mil/LE/DOD/Nato contracts they have for 223/308 makes them more money, but is totally F'n us over.
 
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4O6shootist said:
Sierra makes some excellent bullets, unfortunately they rarely produce them! Their heavy for cal tmk are phenomenal killing bullets, and they just don't produce them. Their business model is garbage for us consumers. I'm sure the Mil/LE/DOD/Nato contracts they have for 223/308 makes them more money, but is totally F'n us over.
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Not appears much love for Sierra around here. My experience is that they answer their telephone, give decent and throught full answers and some of the best shooting bullets I have ever found are the 6.5 caliber 130 grain closed tip MatchKings. As said, hard to get, actually easier to get the Berger 130 grains which shot as good.

Of course in the old, old days, if a fellow wanted a bullet with a decent BC, you purchased Sierra or you made your own. Nosler’s were better at penetration, Speer made the best (and available) reloading manual but Sierra made the boat tail bullets that we liked to shoot. And shoot they did. In my experience, MatchKings ruled IHMSA and it is the bullet I shot so many perfect 40x40’s (back in the day when I could shoot)

All this said, I probably would like to shoot a 25 Creedmoor or 25 GT if bullets were available. I appreciate the way 6.5’s smack a target. I find the 6’s are easier to hit with and stay on target for the next shot (though at my age and ability, that is something of a joke) and it seems the 25 is the compromise. But 117’s aren’t it and 130’s are darned hard to come by.

Still, the old .25-06 is my goto hunting rifle. (Puts em on the wall and in the deep freeze and that is important)
2182277F-FAFC-48E1-A6A7-5B9BFFB2C963.jpeg
 
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Does anyone know what size bushing is needed for using Alpha brass and a Berger 133/135 to get .003" neck tension?

Got my @CarbonSix barrel on order, and working on getting components together.
 
FuhQ said:
Does anyone know what size bushing is needed for using Alpha brass and a Berger 133/135 to get .003" neck tension?

Got my @CarbonSix barrel on order, and working on getting components together.
Click to expand...

Im using 283 on alpha in a SAC die. Id get 282 283 and 284 and test.
 
xocyrusx said:
I use a .282 with the info i got from Tom at alpha. He emailed me this when i bought the brass.

View attachment 8273175
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I am becoming a HUGE fan of Alpha. I'm not used to a manufacturer giving out such information. I'm used to measuring my own. Thanks for this tidbit of info! 👍🏼
 
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FuhQ said:
I am becoming a HUGE fan of Alpha. I'm not used to a manufacturer giving out such information. I'm used to measuring my own. Thanks for this tidbit of info! I will be using it from now on with other Alpha brass. 👍🏼
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I had 300x pcs of alpha from their first ocd 25cm brass run, I had a loaded neck Dia or 283-2835 on my micrometer. I have a 291nk chamber, so I switched to necked down alpha 65cm, brought it to 286. Maybe the necks are thicker on recent runs. But I'd prob get a 280, 281, 282 if you're seeking 3k nk tension. Just my limited experience with the Alpha 25cm brass.
 
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4O6shootist said:
I had 300x pcs of alpha from their first ocd 25cm brass run, I had a loaded neck Dia or 283-2835 on my micrometer. I have a 291nk chamber, so I switched to necked down alpha 65cm, brought it to 286. Maybe the necks are thicker on recent runs. But I'd prob get a 280, 281, 282 if you're seeking 3k nk tension. Just my limited experience with the Alpha 25cm brass.
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I'm thinking I'll get a set of .281's and .282's to run in the dies to see which one it likes best. The reamer that @CarbonSix uses is a rental from 4D reamers, and they don't know the neck specs. I asked them to use the Alpha reamer, but they said they don't have access to one. There's one for sale on their website, but they don't have any .257 pilots in stock. If they do have any pilots, I might order the reamer, and have it shipped to Carbon Six and then have them send my reamer and barrel back when it's done.
 
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FuhQ said:
I am becoming a HUGE fan of Alpha. I'm not used to a manufacturer giving out such information. I'm used to measuring my own. Thanks for this tidbit of info! 👍🏼
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My pleasure. I am as well! I guess he does that for everyone if you buy direct from him. FWIW i use the alpha reamer.
 
xocyrusx said:
My pleasure. I am as well! I guess he does that for everyone if you buy direct from him. FWIW i use the alpha reamer.
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Yeah, I’m going to have to buy one, and a a pilot, but they don’t show any .25 pilots available on their website. 🤦🏼 Waiting to hear back from them now.
 
coldboremiracle said:
+1 for the Alpha guys being outstanding, I've been using their brass and reamers for a bit now. I think i still have the first box of 25CM headstamped brass. As far as the bushing, I use a .281, and I kind wish i had a .282.
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I ended up ordering a set of .281’s and .282’s (FL & NK) for the Redding Elite Type-S 6.5CM set.
 
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Oldloser said:
Keep us updated.
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Everything is now ordered, except for the dies and the Alpha .25CM brass. I'll probably order that this weekend, maybe tomorrow at work if I'm bored.

I ended up buying the last Alpha Legacy .25CM reamer & pilot from their website this morning, and am having it drop-shipped to @CarbonSix for chambering my barrel, and they'll just send them all back to me with the barrel, when it's finished. I figured it was the best option since now I have my own reamer and can have my smith cut my barrels from now on, if I need to, or send it into a barrel maker for them to use for my barrels, and specs will stay consistent for my brass, as long as I have them cut the headspace to the same depth.
 
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FuhQ said:
Everything is now ordered, except for the dies and the Alpha .25CM brass. I'll probably order that this weekend, maybe tomorrow at work if I'm bored.

I ended up buying the last Alpha Legacy .25CM reamer & pilot from their website this morning, and am having it drop-shipped to @CarbonSix for chambering my barrel, and they'll just send them all back to me with the barrel, when it's finished. I figured it was the best option since now I have my own reamer and can have my smith cut my barrels from now on, if I need to, or send it into a barrel maker for them to use for my barrels, and specs will stay consistent for my brass, as long as I have them cut the headspace to the same depth.
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Nice! Well come to the club. We need to keep it quiet though…. Shhhhh
 
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Dummy round made using an old piece of random range 6.5CM brass, and a spare Berger 115 VLD I had sitting around. The end of the bearing surface, where it meets the boat tail, is sitting exactly where the neck/shoulder junction is. So, the only thing dropping into the case, is the boat tail. I hope this will be the case with the 133 Elites with my Alpha reamer... But only time will tell. I won't know until I get my barrel and reamer back from CarbonSix.


IMG_2971.jpegIMG_2972.jpeg
 
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FuhQ said:
Dummy round made using an old piece of random range 6.5CM brass, and a spare Berger 115 VLD I had sitting around. The end of the bearing surface, where it meets the boat tail, is sitting exactly where the neck/shoulder junction is. So, the only thing dropping into the case, is the boat tail. I hope this will be the case with the 133 Elites with my Alpha reamer... But only time will tell. I won't know until I get my barrel and reamer back from CarbonSix.


View attachment 8282023View attachment 8282024
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Maybe I missed it...but if that's what you were going for...why didn't you just make a few dummys with your bullet of choice, seated to the depth you wanted, and make your reamer based off those dummys? If it's close...close enough, but if it's not close, you could always just run a throat reamer in there.
 
c_bass16 said:
Maybe I missed it...but if that's what you were going for...why didn't you just make a few dummys with your bullet of choice, seated to the depth you wanted, and make your reamer based off those dummys? If it's close...close enough, but if it's not close, you could always just run a throat reamer in there.
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Maybe because I didn’t want to wait six months for a custom-ground reamer, then have it sent to the barrel builder for another 3+ months of waiting… If I’m not happy with the outcome, I will order a custom throating reamer to get it seated where I want it.
 
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