308 at 1000

FequalsMA

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Minuteman
Nov 18, 2009
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Schenectady, N.Y.
I know what my ballistics program tells me and I know what my rifle likes but what I want to know is what some of you guys prefer/ fast 155's or heavy 175's. What tends to perform better all around, not the worst or best conditions. This question is more geared toward F-class type shooting.

I have shot the 175 at 1000 but not the 155 which shoots 1/3 moa at 300 and half moa at 600. Wondering if I should bring my 155 load to a 1000 match.

The 175s group about 7 inches average at 1000 so I may be getting off track.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

I don't shoot F class, or BR, but I do shoot to 1000 yards countless times with the 155 scenars. Certainly, I have done more so with it than the 175 SMK. The heavier bullet tends to buckle the wind a bit better. The question that you ask is the old question of speed vs. mass.

It's different strokes for different folks. If you get sub MOA with the 155 at 300 and 600 yards, and you get 7 inches at 1000 with the 175 then it's a no brainer. Who cares what the speed is, as long as the grouping is small?
 
Re: 308 at 1000

There really isn't a lot of difference between the 155 Scenar @ 2900 fps and the 175 SMK @ 2800 fps. Ballistic programs give a slight edge to the 155 in a full value 10 mph wind, around 1 moa.
I've switched from the 175 to the 155 and have seen my scores improve, probably a combination of bullet choice and experience.
I plan to try some 185 VLD.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

Try em both...

The US Palma team shoots 155's at 1k, I've shot 155's at 1k with iron sights and done quite well.

I personally prefer the 175's tho, think they are just a bit more stable in wind.

If you do shoot the 155's make sure you cook em out at 2900 or better.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

The Palma "Rules of the Game" are written by the British (NRA?) as the base of the British Commonwealth Palma shooting game. It is shot with iron sights. Palma as shot in the US is at 800, 900, and 1,000 yards.

The old rules held that the host country (originally an English-speaking British Commonwealth nation or former colony) provided the rifles and 7.62mm ammunition. Gun ownership is limited in England, so that generally meant a tuned military surplus bolt rifle shooting a surplus 7.62mm cartridge.

Rifle were accurized ("Regulated" in English parlance) to shoot surplus. English and other Commonwealth gunsmiths turned out some incredibly accurate rifles shooting former military 7.62 (generally shooting an issue 147 or 150-grain boat-tail Ball bullet). Palma barrels generally got longer to keep GI Ball stable to 1,000 yards and beyond.

As time progressed and less surplus became available the rules were changed to allow .308 Winchester rifles (avoiding the 7.62mm NATO label to allow free travel across countries that do not allow the importation or movement of military materiel) and ammo limited to 155 grains (holding to the tradition of a level playing field limited to .308). The Sierra 155 was specifically named, although there are lots of other nice 155s (Lapua, Berger, and Hornady, etc.).

Palma rifles are weight-limited, so accurizing is limited to what you can get within the guidelines.

Alan Warner on this board is undoubtedly who you want to go to for Palma gunsmithing and sights.

The 175 Sierra Match King has the same ogive profile as the Sierra 155 (2155) but a longer body for better sectional density. They will shoot to 1,000 easier and buck wind better at lower velocities than the 155 (2155 or 2156, which usually do best leaving the muzzle at 2850-2900 fps, generally requiring a 28-inch barrel or longer).

175s were specifically designed for 1,000-yard performance from Marine Corps 24-inch M40 sniper barrels as quality of Lake City 173-grain M118 Special Ball had gone into the toilet.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

The 168gr VLD is a viable alternative from what I've read. I've never shot them but from all acounts I've read they do not have a transonic tumble likethe 168gr SMKs do. I personally use 175gr VLDs and SMKs at 1000 yards and the extra wind bucking ability is a plus in my book as I am not a very skilled 1000 yard shooter yet.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

There was a guy shooting a 308 at the 1k match in Palmdale couple of weeks back, every shot keyholed at 1K, think he was shooting 168's but cant be sure. The guys working the pits said the rounds were making a steel ping sound when they hit the paper target.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

The Sierra 168 Match King was specifically designed for 300 Meter international shooting (a former Olympic event shot standing, kneeling, and prone). They just happened to work well at 600, so many took to using them at Camp Perry in Model 70s, M1s, and M14s/M1As. It was never intended (nor designed) to get to 1,000 yards.

A 175 or one of the many, many streamlined and VLD .308 bullets will be much more efficient at getting to 1,000 without beating the snot out of you. The 155 Lapua Scenar is a good light one, but other VLD 168s through 200+ grains will do well (don't forget Bergers and AMAXs).

The heavier the bullet, though, the heavier the recoil unless you're using a muzzle brake.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

those of you swearing by the 155's for 1k, what length and twist of barrel are you using? I have a 24" 1/10 - kinda thought that was too fast a twist for a 3,000fps bullet?
I'm working up some 168SMK's for 300 and 500 yards and some 175SMK's for 600+. I'd order some 155's to try if it's not gonna be a waste of time...
 
Re: 308 at 1000

I am new to shooting 7.62 and have a new rifle coming an a week or so. It is an AI AW with a 20 inch barrel.
I do not reload anymore so I plan to shoot factory ammo.
I now have some Fiocchi 150 gr. SST which are like a ballistic tip. I am using a BC of .415 with a muzzle velocity of 2800.

I also have some Fiocchi 165 gr Game King BTHP which I am using an auto ballistic G1 value from my ballistic program with a velociy of 2600 fps.

Are these realistic accurate values to use for my ballistic tables and have I made any errors in my choices in projectiles? I plan to plink with the rifle from 200 to 1000 yds. No competition just for fun.
I am trying to limit my ammunition to Fiocchi as I have access to purchase their ammunition at cost.
I planned to try these two initially and see which the rifle likes. Should I be considering going to a heavier bullet?
I don't think I will be getting 2900 fps as you guys do from factory loads.
Thanks
Gary
 
Re: 308 at 1000

Heavier bullets generally have the least wind drift, even though you cannot launch them as fast. I know there is a feeling that the one place this breaks down is when comparing the Lapua 155. The thought is that this bullet has a BC higher than the Sierra 175 MK, and is also lighter so you can push it faster - making it perform better at longer ranges. It seems like an excellent bullet for when you have to use a 155, but it does not seem to have less wind drift at long range than a 175 MK and certainly not a 220 or 240 MK.

The problem is that the 'advertised' BC is only for velocities above 3000 fps - where the bullet spends little to no time in flight. If you launch the bullet at 2860 and it is 1380 at 1000 yards, the average velocity is 2120. The true average BC of this bullet is about 0.465.

The SMK 175 has a higher (actual, not advertised) BC than the Lapua 155 at any specific velocity according to real-world testing.

At 1000 yards with a 24 inch barrel, this is what I compute for equal chamber pressure:

Bullet, fpe at 1000, wind drift inches (10mph), drop in inches.

Sierra 240 893 78.2 500.4

Sierra 220 793 84.6 477.2

Sierra 175 604 96.1 416.4

Lapua 155. 518 98.5 386.7

So if the goal is the least wind, then use the Sierra 240 or 220 (which would want a 1:8 twist).

The Sierra 240 has 43 MOA drop at 1000 yards if you zero at 100 yards, but if you have a 20 MOA base, that is only 23 MOA on your scope.


Here is the data for a Sierra 142 (.260) launched at the same pressure from a 24 inch barrel at 2764 fps:

Sierra 142 629 76.7 362.5

It outperforms the Sierra 240 for wind (by a hair) and the Lapua 155 for drop. It crushes .308 by combining the two extremes of long-range .308 bullet performance - and has less recoil.

But, .308 with a 1:8 twist can match it for wind! .308 shooters should switch to 1:8 twist and 220, 230, or 240 grain bullets on a mass exodus.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matthew Lundy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1/10 may be a bit fast for the 155 but I would still give them a try if they interest you. What I've recently learned is that with the mass vs speed paradox, mass is simply better, and having both is ideal. </div></div>
While think their FPS claims were a bit optimistic(2800), I must say my rifle(savage FCP-K) really liked that Buffalo Bore match ammo with 175SMK's. I wish I had my chrony at the time, because I think I would like to do up some loads that match them. I think I will buy another box just for the heck of it to see how fast they were really going...
 
Re: 308 at 1000

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the 178 Amax. One of my friends runs them and they are outstanding out of his rifles. I picked up a box but haven't had the chance to load them yet - maybe next week.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

I have shot both.

What really made me go with the 175SMK over the 155 Scenar was actually close range performance.

Know your limits stages seem to be pretty popular. In my rifle the 155 does not stabilize (go to sleep) as quickly as the 175. I get better close range accuracy with the 175. When I was doing load development with the Scenars I was having trouble at first until I realized I needed to check the groups at 200+.

At 1000 yards there isn't enough of a difference for me to go to the trouble of running two different loads.

The 168 SMK is fine at 800 and sometimes 900 yards at sea level. They start to go sideways after that. In both my 26" and our 20" barrels 168gr FGMM keyholes at 1K. It would still ruin your day if the package was addressed to you though.

I have not had a chance to try the NEW 155 SMK. Those may be worth a look soon. If I can get less wind drift and close range accuracy then it may be worth the slight reduction in barrel life.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

Here in the UK most of the Fclass 308 shooters are shooting fast 155 gr scenars and smk's at 1000 and 1200. There are a few guys shooting the 210 gr smk's who seem to be doing pretty good too. try all if you can and see what works.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

Matthew Lundy where do you shoot? I'm 30 minutes south of Albany, I should have a rifle set up in a month. I want to practice this year and try my hand at a 1000m. I was wondering about rifle setup and would like to check it out first hand. What rifle and barrel setup do you use? I was going to buy the SPS varmit with a H-S stock , get the barrel cut to 22 and a little action work if it doesn't meet my standard.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matthew Lundy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1/10 may be a bit fast for the 155 but I would still give them a try if they interest you. What I've recently learned is that with the mass vs speed paradox, mass is simply better, and having both is ideal. </div></div>

Everyone always talks weight regarding twist rates, but the the twist has more to do with length and length of bearing surface. 1:10 shoots the 115 Scenars just fine.

My choice for 1K in 308 is good old predictable 175 SMK's.
 
Re: 308 at 1000

I am waiting on my 700p to get back from the gunsmith that is doing all the neccasary to ge tit shooting good. I don't handload just yet so I will have to do factory ammo for a while. My question is this with a 1:12 twist which weight bullet would be most common for that twist rate. My smith who is quite the shooter says that 168 smk perform the best for that rifle. I was hoping to get some suggestions