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.308 bolt difficult to close

Goattman

Stupid is NOT ok...
Full Member
Minuteman
I am looking for help with a problem I am having closing the bolt on my REM 700 .308 with my 168 SMK reloads. I am using Black Hills once fired brass. I am neck sizing with a Lee Collet die and seating with die from same set. When using Black Hills 175 factory ammo I am not having this problem. I have pushed my bullets all the way back to 2.785 OAL and still have same problem. I can't get a picture to upload right now but I will. There are scrapes on one quarter of the bullet abou 0.25" from case. I don't have concentricity gauge.
 
You may need to trim the necks they could be to long. Are you bumping the shoulders back any?
 
Your bolt face is prolly not square. When you fire your factory ammo the case head conforms to the crooked bolt face. When you reload the case and only neck size, unless you insert the cartridge in the chamber exactly the way it came out, due to the geometry you will have negative headspace meaning the case body is now too long for the chamber in that particular orientation.

I think FL sizing will help. Don't worry, most factory rifles have crooked bolt faces. My last Remmy had .005" of runout.
 
I was recently having a similar problem. I had a few reloads that were difficult to close the bolt on. it turns out I was not bumping the shoulders back enough. I got a case headspace gauge to double check my cases. youll need a FL sizer to bump your shoulders though, if that's your problem.
 
Take one of your empty neck sized cases and chamber it. If there is resistance, then that is your problem. You need to full-length resize and bump your shoulder back a bit.
 
Try this...Bushing Bump Neck Sizing Die. ... Are you reloading once fired brass from somebody else? or those are yours once fired brass(from your gun)? Same problem I encountered the first time I did my own reload. You need to full length size your brass if purchase as once fired from a different gun plus neck size and shoulder bump. My .02
 
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Thanks for all the great ideas everyone. Here's the photo. I'll also try and address everyone's replies.

SMK 2200 Marks.jpg

918v: What you are saying about the bolt face makes perfect sense. I hope you are wrong though because that will be the excuse I use to send it our to be accurized.

Silentnswift: This also makes sense and reflects 918v suggestion to FLS.

Buffybuster: Great idea.

fishpinoy27: They are all my brass. Once fired in my rifle.

Thank you to all. I am actually a mechanical troubleshooter where I work. Thank you for opening my eyes. Especially to the bolt face. Because the rifle is a machined and tolerance manufactured item, I forget about these small things. I assumed once fired in my rifle was good to neck size. I am also going to try indexing a bullet and try it in different positions in the chamber and see what affect this has.

If the bolt face is not square, and/or I need to FLS, would this affect my accuracy over time? I ask because this is not the first time I have reloaded this brass but this particular issue seems to be more noticeable now then in the past and my accuracy is way off. I used to shoot this same rifle at 3/4 MOA at 100 yards all day. Not anymore.

One other variable recently added: A Bell and Carlson Tactical stock, I traded for the original H-S Precision.
 
How many rounds are on the rifle? I'm thinking carbon build up in the throat area.
 
It has 1952 rounds fired and I clean after every range day. I have on occasion used a chamber brush. This concern does seem to have popped up kind of all of a sudden. Not a gradual concern as I recall.
 
I would first get the sinclair shoulder bump gauge and a FL resizing die and try bumping the shoulder back 001-.002. It's most likely this. It's also possible it's your press. How old is it? It might not be seating the bullets straight and causing runout. Bolt face would be the last thing on my list to worry about. Try using a FL die. It's most likely this.
 
My brother had the same exact problem with his full length resized 308's in his SPS. Factory (any make) ammo chambered perfectly. He had to bump the shoulder back a bit, problem solved.
 
About the bullet scrape. Could that happen when you push the round out of the magazine and up into the chamber? You might try partially chambering a round from the magazine, extract it and look for the mark. If that shows the issue, that would imply an issue with your magazine, mag catch, or feed lips.

I thought about it and the only other place where you could get that scrape would be if there is crud or a burr where the chamber shoulder meets the neck. Here is the thinking. Once the case shoulder enters the chamber, that scrape would not happen until the bullet enters the chamber neck -- if you put the case shoulder just into the edge of the chamber, the ogive of the bullet might touch the opposite chamber wall but the scraped spot would be protected. As the round is pushed into the chamber, the bullet might touch the lands but that is the wrong mark for lands -- those are dashes or square spots on the ogive. If there was some crud or a burr -- something pretty hard -- where the neck meets the shoulder -- that could make a scrape like that.

One other observation: the scratches in the scrape are straight fore-and-aft. The round was not being twisted when those scratches happened. Another argument that the scrape happened as the round was leaving the magazine.

Regarding difficult chambering: it will take a little force to make that scrape. Your description is not precise enough to guess if the chambering difficulty is caused by forcing that scrape into the bullet. If it is, then you have your answer. If not then you may have a second issue. The classic reason for hard bolt closure is that the cases are too long. Clean a case and try to chamber it. If it is hard to chamber then the brass is too big. We don't know where it is too big -- neck length, neck diameter, shoulder headspace (most likely but not established) or shoulder diameter, body diameter, base diameter or rim diameter -- but it is too big somewhere. Take a magic marker, blacken the entire case (you can also smoke one over a candle or oil lamp but smoke is very tricky to do) and chamber it. Wherever the marker scrapes off is the place where the interference happens. If nothing scrapes off then I suggest that you bump the shoulder. Nothing scraped off because you are just pushing the case straight forward and there is no sliding or rotating action to scrape off the marker. Start long and very carefully work shorter. The key test is to chamber the piece of brass.

The best test happens if you remove the firing pin and the ejector from the bolt. You have it right when the bolt almost, but not quite, closes freely on the case. If the bolt handle just drops freely, that is a little too short. All of the tests for brass and chamber size are best performed with a bare bolt, without a firing pin or ejector.

Once you get your die set, resize a few more pieces of brass, to validate your setting. If you find that the brass is too long, RCBS makes a pretty decent case gauge. I use one to diagnose issues like this.

One other possibility - not impossible but unlikely - you may have a particularly robust ejector spring or there may be some crud in it. The bolt face has an extractor hook that catches the rim and a spring-loaded ejector button that pushes against the opposite side of the case base. When you pull the bolt toward you, the empty brass clears the chamber and ejection port and that ejector flips the case out of the gun. If it was full of crud, it might put higher-than-normal forces against the base and push the brass against the side of the chamber opposite the ejector. When you rack the bolt back and forth, the ejector pushes against the 7:30 position on the case base. When you close the bolt, the ejector rotates to about the 10:30 position. If you pull the barrel to look for issues in the chamber, look in the upper right quadrant - between 12 and 3 for a burr. In my experience, a dirty ejector stops working -- the crud makes it push less hard, apparently the opposite of your issue -- but it seemed worth mentioning.

One other thing, eyeballs are not calibrated but the neck looks long to me. The 7.62/.308 trim to length is 2.005. I cut mine to 2.008+-.001. If yours is over 2.020 things may start to happen. While you have your calipers out, check the rim diameter, the standard is about .473.
 
Ive had this several times on my 700's I have my Case holder trimmed down, and I use a FL Die to push the base of the case back down, and if you may want to bump the shoulder back a tad. I gennerally have to do this every 5 reloads so everything runs smoothly. Best of luck!
 
What exactly is the difference between full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back? I assumed that when I full length resized it would put the cases back to SAAMI specs. Please pardon my ignorance and educate me...

I did FLS five fired cases and compare to chambering five fired cases from the same lot, there was no perceptible difference in chambering FWIW.
 
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What exactly is the difference between full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back? I assumed, that when I full length resized it would put the cases back to SAAMI specs. Please pardon my ignorance and educate me...
A full length resizing die will get the shape back into SAAMI spec, but the neck length (must be trimmed as/if necessary) and shoulder height are exceptions.

The shoulder height (and therefore its "bump back") depends on how deep that die is set in your press.

But in your original post, you told us you were "neck sizing". That's a different die, it touches only the neck, and it will not bump the shoulder back under any circumstances. So eventually the shoulder gets "too high" and the base-to-shoulder dimension gets too long. Effectively your bolt is trying to bump the shoulder back when closing it on the chamber.
 
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A full length resizing die will get the shape back into SAAMI spec, but the neck length (must be trimmed as/if necessary) and shoulder height are exceptions.

The shoulder height (and therefore its "bump back") depends on how deep that die is set in your press.

But in your original post, you told us you were "neck sizing". That's a different die, it touches only the neck, and it will not bump the shoulder back under any circumstances. So eventually the shoulder gets "too high" and the base-to-shoulder dimension gets too long. Effectively your bolt is trying to bump the shoulder back when closing it on the chamber.

You are correct that I ordinarily neck size only. I did test FLS the 5 brass I spoke of.

Doing more research I think I will need to start FLS. My thought is that my Lee die may have too much length to bump the shoulder back.

Maybe be it is time for me to buy a few items:

Shoulder gauge, and better FLS die. Anything else?
 
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Stiff bolt closing can be caused by these three case problems:

1. Shoulder dimension has grown and the brass will not springback. At that point caming the action closed in providing a mild crush fit.
Solution: FL size or size with body die and bump shoulder back until smooth chambering is achieved, usually about 0.002".

2. Casehead expansion. Often found with MG fired brass or other range pickup brass. However with extended neck-sizing, casehead will expand making chambering difficult. Also a "click" upon bolt opening/extraction is an indicator of this.
Solution: FL size, possibly with a Small Base die if necessary.

3. Excessive Caselength, pinching at the casemouth. Could result in excessive case pressure.
Solution: Measure and trim cases to within specification.

When FL sizing you should have a case comparator to be able to measure the amount of shoulder bump as compared to a fired case.

Jamming the bullet can also cause hard bolt close, but that has nothing to do with the case.
High primer could also cause this, but this would be intermittent and easy to see.
 
What exactly is the difference between full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back? I assumed that when I full length resized it would put the cases back to SAAMI specs. Please pardon my ignorance and educate me...

Goattman, the FLS die will size the entire case body (along the full case wall). Shoulder bumping will set back the shoulder without reforming the rest of the case body.

edit: sorry just saw twoboxers reply to the same question. There are also "bushing bump" dies that do neck and shoulder bump but not body
 
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I use a Redding body die in conjunction with a Lee collet neck die. The Lee sizes the neck and the Redding bumps the shoulder.

Understand, though, that there is no such thing as a shoulder bump only die. They all will size the body to some degree, although less than a FL die.

To bump the shoulder in precise .002" increments I recommend a Redding competition shell holder set. You get 5 shell holders, each .002" taller than the other. You set the die to bottom out against the shell holder, starting with the +.010" shell holder and progressing down from there until your bolt closes easily.

In my rifles the +.004" and .006" shell holders work the best. The +.010" one won't let the bolt close and the +.008" has the bolt closing hard. But each rifle is different and each sizer is different so you get 5 in the set.
 
Test in progress. Stand by for results...

Ok, so I have ordered the Sinclair XL Comparator/Bump Gauge Body as well as corresponding bullet comparator and bump gauge. I am going to FLS some of the cases in question with my current Lee FLS die (I am going to NOT use O-ring lock ring. I will use set screw style. I feel the O-ring makes too much chance for variation.) and the new tools to set die and measure loaded rounds. After FLS, I will trim to length, load, test chamber, fire and report back.

Stand by...
 
Try cleaning your inside your bolt, mine was full of rust and carbon and was hard to cycle and had a hang fire or two.my rifle has 2500rd in it and that was the first time I clean the bolt. put it in my sonic cleaner with baking soda and %100 vinagar for 3 hrs.With a brushing every 30 min.The vinagar turned dark brown.I put it back together with copper anti seize. Work great now
 
I use a Redding body die in conjunction with a Lee collet neck die. The Lee sizes the neck and the Redding bumps the shoulder.

Understand, though, that there is no such thing as a shoulder bump only die. They all will size the body to some degree, although less than a FL die.

To bump the shoulder in precise .002" increments I recommend a Redding competition shell holder set. You get 5 shell holders, each .002" taller than the other. You set the die to bottom out against the shell holder, starting with the +.010" shell holder and progressing down from there until your bolt closes easily.

In my rifles the +.004" and .006" shell holders work the best. The +.010" one won't let the bolt close and the +.008" has the bolt closing hard. But each rifle is different and each sizer is different so you get 5 in the set.

Definitely like the comp shell holder strategy, haven't bought them but wish I had. Are you saying the foster bushing bumps are doing body too?
 
Of course. Anytime you push on the shoulder the body bows out. The body needs to be supported. There are a dozen different 308 chambers. They all have different body dimensions. A body die has to accommodate the lowest common denominator.
 
you need to FL size all brass that has not been first fired in your rifle. I would also suggest that you should FL size vs NS for a variety of reasons. You can gaul your lugs attempting to size brass with your bolt and chamber.
 
Hi Guys

I am a new member to snipers hide. I am having the exact same problem my remington 700 sps tactical .308

So this is how things went with me and how far I am with trying to fix the damm problem.

80 factory 185gr Lapua Match bullets fired from the rifle. no issues with any one of them

redding neck size die used to resize the brass, Hornady Amax 155gr loaded. Picked up exact same mark as the OP. long story short, I found that the cases were the problem and not anything else.

Purchase redding body bump die. resized a few cases, still the same problem they bolt is hard to close and open on some unloaded cases. I then took 10 rounds randomly inserted them into the rifle batch the ones that were the bolt was easy to close and were the bolt was hard to close. I found that the ones that were hard close were approximately 0,04mm longer than the ones that the bolt was easy.

I will be getting a trimmer next week and will try to trim the cases all to one lenght to see if that solves the problem.

[MENTION=2723]goat[/MENTION]man please let me know what you did to get your cases to feed smoothly into your rifle.
 
For any of you that are following this or are looking for a solution to same concern... Today I am mini binge watching with the wife. Project Runway and Dr. Who. So it will be next week before I have an update. Small price to pay for range time! Especially since I enjoy it. The plan is to trim 20 cases to the length of the shortest case of the group. The first ten I will then reload as normal. The second ten I will FLS and measure with my new Sinclair bump gauge and bump back to SAAMI, maybe more depending on what I find. This should get all done during the week and shoot next weekend with update.
 
Id throw an empty brass in the chamber and see if it closes like silk that part of my routine right now, but I got all mine fixed, and bright and shiny now. So hope it works.
 
I am looking for help with a problem I am having closing the bolt on my REM 700 .308 with my 168 SMK reloads. I am using Black Hills once fired brass. I am neck sizing with a Lee Collet die and seating with die from same set. When using Black Hills 175 factory ammo I am not having this problem. I have pushed my bullets all the way back to 2.785 OAL and still have same problem. I can't get a picture to upload right now but I will. There are scrapes on one quarter of the bullet abou 0.25" from case. I don't have concentricity gauge.

The scrapes are most likely from rough magazine feeding lips. Remove the magazine (black metal box that floats around) and use some 320 grit sandpaper or steel wool to polish it.

The overall cartridge length (2.785") has nothing to do with a case length. Case length should be 2.015". You can seat a bullet to 2.5" but if the case length is 2.2" it won't fit.

Here's what you need:
- Redding Full Length Sizer Die $30
- Lee Cutter & Lock Stud $6
- Lee Case Length Gauge & Shell Holder $6

Read the instructions for setting up the Full Length Sizer. Lube and run brass through it. Then trim it (the Lee is cheap and you can chuck it to a drill). Later on you can upgrade the trimmer, but for $42 I am 95% certain you can diagnose and fix your problem.
 
Hi Guys

I am a new member to snipers hide. I am having the exact same problem my remington 700 sps tactical .308

So this is how things went with me and how far I am with trying to fix the damm problem.

80 factory 185gr Lapua Match bullets fired from the rifle. no issues with any one of them

redding neck size die used to resize the brass, Hornady Amax 155gr loaded. Picked up exact same mark as the OP. long story short, I found that the cases were the problem and not anything else.

Purchase redding body bump die. resized a few cases, still the same problem they bolt is hard to close and open on some unloaded cases. I then took 10 rounds randomly inserted them into the rifle batch the ones that were the bolt was easy to close and were the bolt was hard to close. I found that the ones that were hard close were approximately 0,04mm longer than the ones that the bolt was easy.

I will be getting a trimmer next week and will try to trim the cases all to one lenght to see if that solves the problem.

[MENTION=2723]goat[/MENTION]man please let me know what you did to get your cases to feed smoothly into your rifle.

Try trimming your brass to the correct length. I recommend the buying the Lee Cutter & Lock Stud ($6) and the Lee Case Length Gauge and Shellholder ($6). Its a cheap alternative.

For my SPS, I found that if I'm resizing thicker brass (like military brass), it will only feed reliably if I run them through a Redding Small Base Body Die before trimming. The small base die resizes it to minimal SAAMI specs and will reduce brass life, but it feeds reliably.
 
You've got a lot of good advice already; bumping the shoulder back is the most likely solution. The Sinclair comparator is a nice tool to use when setting up your die, but for everyday use it can be a pain in the neck.

You might look into a Wilson Case Headspace gage; simply drop the case into the gage and it will tell you immediately if you need to push the shoulder back. In this way, you can neck size only if the Wilson says it's OK, otherwise do a FL size to bump the shoulders and straighten the case. If you start seeing the need for FL sizing on a few cases in the batch, it's a good idea to FL size the entire batch. Doing that will keep all the cases in the batch consistent for best accuracy.