well ive been comparing the numbers and i just cant figure out why so many prefer a 308 over a 270 for hunting. All the way to 500yrds the 270 wins in every category. Now im not talking paper im talking hunting. Why are there NO .270s around here??? I have owned a 270 but not a .308 so its hard for me to compare. Someone help me out here, what could there possibly be that would have the 308 better when the 270 is faster flatter and hits harder???
- Thread starter rackchaser71
- Start date
Re: 308 over 270????
Here is a thread from a few weeks ago that gives a few reasons.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1597188
Here is a thread from a few weeks ago that gives a few reasons.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1597188
Re: 308 over 270????
How much match grade ammo can you find in .270? How many match grade High BC bullets can you find in .270? 270 is a fine round but it's also got nothing on a .260 so why doesn't everybody have that.
How much match grade ammo can you find in .270? How many match grade High BC bullets can you find in .270? 270 is a fine round but it's also got nothing on a .260 so why doesn't everybody have that.
Re: 308 over 270????
deleted in protest!
deleted in protest!
Re: 308 over 270????
In reading my post I think I came off like an asshole the way it was written and that was not my intention, my bad. Tool for the job is what I was getting at. There will always be something that does some things better but there is always trade offs. Believe me, I got barrel coming and changed my mind on what to have it chambered in like a dozen times so I know what it's like to sit for hours with JBM and run numbers. FWIW I ended up settling on another 308 this time.
In reading my post I think I came off like an asshole the way it was written and that was not my intention, my bad. Tool for the job is what I was getting at. There will always be something that does some things better but there is always trade offs. Believe me, I got barrel coming and changed my mind on what to have it chambered in like a dozen times so I know what it's like to sit for hours with JBM and run numbers. FWIW I ended up settling on another 308 this time.
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> well ive been comparing the numbers and i just cant figure out why so many prefer a 308 over a 270 for hunting. </div></div>
I didn't realize so many people prefer the .308 over the .270 for a hunting round. What is this based on?
If I head out on a deer hunt, a 30+ year old Finbear chambered in .270W goes with me. If I head out to shoot long-range, punch paper or do anything else with a rifle, it stays at the house.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> well ive been comparing the numbers and i just cant figure out why so many prefer a 308 over a 270 for hunting. </div></div>
I didn't realize so many people prefer the .308 over the .270 for a hunting round. What is this based on?
If I head out on a deer hunt, a 30+ year old Finbear chambered in .270W goes with me. If I head out to shoot long-range, punch paper or do anything else with a rifle, it stays at the house.
Re: 308 over 270????
For what its worth, my 270 is my low light deer gun where my shots are 300 yards tops, my granddad also gave it to me. Most of the time they are well under 200. I have yet had a deer walk away from the 270 when the bullet is in the boiler room. Come to think of it when I killed my 1st deer (7 yrs old) the little 243 pulverized the heart and turned it into jello.
I don't think any deer will notice a difference between a 270 and a 308, 500 yards and in, when the bullet is placed right behind the shoulder in the boiler room.
For what its worth, my 270 is my low light deer gun where my shots are 300 yards tops, my granddad also gave it to me. Most of the time they are well under 200. I have yet had a deer walk away from the 270 when the bullet is in the boiler room. Come to think of it when I killed my 1st deer (7 yrs old) the little 243 pulverized the heart and turned it into jello.
I don't think any deer will notice a difference between a 270 and a 308, 500 yards and in, when the bullet is placed right behind the shoulder in the boiler room.
Re: 308 over 270????
I overheard someone asking this question at a local gun store, it made me wonder myself, as I have had many oppurtunities to buy decent 270s, I need to finally get one.
I overheard someone asking this question at a local gun store, it made me wonder myself, as I have had many oppurtunities to buy decent 270s, I need to finally get one.
Re: 308 over 270????
that is why they have different calibers!! to each there own , I prefer 308
that is why they have different calibers!! to each there own , I prefer 308
Re: 308 over 270????
Bullet choice and premium factory ammo availability. Pound for pound the 270 has better capability than anything based on the 308 case IF you can get a proper match grade bullet in it. Moving just a smidge to 7mm bullets the 280 Rem smokes a 260 Rem.
If companies made as many match grade and premium hunting grade bullets for the 270 as they do for 6.5, 7 and 30 cal it would be a different story for the 270.
Bullet choice and premium factory ammo availability. Pound for pound the 270 has better capability than anything based on the 308 case IF you can get a proper match grade bullet in it. Moving just a smidge to 7mm bullets the 280 Rem smokes a 260 Rem.
If companies made as many match grade and premium hunting grade bullets for the 270 as they do for 6.5, 7 and 30 cal it would be a different story for the 270.
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullet choice and premium factory ammo availability. Pound for pound the 270 has better capability than anything based on the 308 case IF you can get a proper match grade bullet in it. Moving just a smidge to 7mm bullets the 280 Rem smokes a 260 Rem.
If companies made as many match grade and premium hunting grade bullets for the 270 as they do for 6.5, 7 and 30 cal it would be a different story for the 270. </div></div>
I agree but it does so in a long action and if I were going long action I'd probably go with something else. It's hard to quantify how good it could be without the availability of high BC bullets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullet choice and premium factory ammo availability. Pound for pound the 270 has better capability than anything based on the 308 case IF you can get a proper match grade bullet in it. Moving just a smidge to 7mm bullets the 280 Rem smokes a 260 Rem.
If companies made as many match grade and premium hunting grade bullets for the 270 as they do for 6.5, 7 and 30 cal it would be a different story for the 270. </div></div>
I agree but it does so in a long action and if I were going long action I'd probably go with something else. It's hard to quantify how good it could be without the availability of high BC bullets.
Re: 308 over 270????
The 270 is a fantastic hunting cartridge, and there are tons of them around. Probably the circle you surround yourself with just does not like what their dads used.
There are tons of cartridges more effective for hunting than the 308. You do not have to look any farther than the 30-06. The 30-06 is definitely a better hunting cartridge, but just by a little. But then aren't we splitting hairs here??
The 308 is popular because it is an effective short action cartridge that was adopted by the military. It is that simple. If the military's had not chosen that cartridge then there is no way it would be as popular as it is. And the available(at one time) military ammo was cheaper and easier to get your hands on.
Military rifles have a way of catching on and being popular in the civilian market. Why else would a 223 cartridge rifle be so popular??
Long range shooting is more a function of well made firearms and high grade optics. And less a function of cartridge. Yes the higher BC bullets are a definite advantage. But with a high quality rig you could do the same with a 270. Tom.
The 270 is a fantastic hunting cartridge, and there are tons of them around. Probably the circle you surround yourself with just does not like what their dads used.
There are tons of cartridges more effective for hunting than the 308. You do not have to look any farther than the 30-06. The 30-06 is definitely a better hunting cartridge, but just by a little. But then aren't we splitting hairs here??
The 308 is popular because it is an effective short action cartridge that was adopted by the military. It is that simple. If the military's had not chosen that cartridge then there is no way it would be as popular as it is. And the available(at one time) military ammo was cheaper and easier to get your hands on.
Military rifles have a way of catching on and being popular in the civilian market. Why else would a 223 cartridge rifle be so popular??
Long range shooting is more a function of well made firearms and high grade optics. And less a function of cartridge. Yes the higher BC bullets are a definite advantage. But with a high quality rig you could do the same with a 270. Tom.
Re: 308 over 270????
i noticed alot of people said the reason is because they do not make many match grade bullets for the .270. I wasnt talking about paper but strictly hunting, who in the world needs match grade bullets for hunting. I personally have seen more 270 ammmo on the shelf than 308 everywhere i go. I noticed another big reason the 308 is more popular is because you can run a heavier bullet, which is better for long range, im guessing this is the biggest factor. But like one of you said, a deer isnt going to know the difference when hes shot, i guess comparing a 270 to a 308 in hunting is splitting hairs. thanks for the replies guys oh and one more thing, the 308 being a short action and lighter is a very big advantage when hunting in my opinion, thats another plus
i noticed alot of people said the reason is because they do not make many match grade bullets for the .270. I wasnt talking about paper but strictly hunting, who in the world needs match grade bullets for hunting. I personally have seen more 270 ammmo on the shelf than 308 everywhere i go. I noticed another big reason the 308 is more popular is because you can run a heavier bullet, which is better for long range, im guessing this is the biggest factor. But like one of you said, a deer isnt going to know the difference when hes shot, i guess comparing a 270 to a 308 in hunting is splitting hairs. thanks for the replies guys oh and one more thing, the 308 being a short action and lighter is a very big advantage when hunting in my opinion, thats another plus
Re: 308 over 270????
Wouldn't it be a more fair comparison for the .270 vs the 30-06?
Wouldn't it be a more fair comparison for the .270 vs the 30-06?
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i noticed alot of people said the reason is because they do not make many match grade bullets for the .270. I wasnt talking about paper but strictly hunting, who in the world needs match grade bullets for hunting. I personally have seen more 270 ammmo on the shelf than 308 everywhere i go. I noticed another big reason the 308 is more popular is because you can run a heavier bullet, which is better for long range, im guessing this is the biggest factor. But like one of you said, a deer isnt going to know the difference when hes shot, i guess comparing a 270 to a 308 in hunting is splitting hairs. thanks for the replies guys oh and one more thing, the 308 being a short action and lighter is a very big advantage when hunting in my opinion, thats another plus </div></div>
A 150gr 308 bullet and a 150gr 270 bullet are completely different animals. The 270 bullet will have appx the same BC as a ~200gr 308 bullet.
Berger does make a good 270 bullet but they're expensive, in the 30 cal market there's a lot of competition for high grade bullets.
Even for premium grade hunting bullets a lot of companies make excellent bullets for the 30 cals, but the 270 is limited to only a few.
The accuracy debate comes up for 308 vs. 30-06 and similarly the 270 would be very close to the 06 (same parent case)
This has been tested with precision rifles built to almost identical specs by the same builder and the 30-06 vs. the 308 is no difference in "inherent accuracy" but the large case capacity buys 2-300 fps increases in velocity.
The 270 will shoot very flat compared to a 308, and for hunting at longer ranges the 270 is going to be better suited for the job even if you know the exact range. The retained energy for the same weight bullet will be higher for the 270, it will have less flight time and similarly less wind drift (the true unknown in any shooting situation)
I would go out on a limb and say that a fair bit of the "unpopularity" (which is a bit laughable in itself) of the 270 is because it was never a military round like the 30-06 was.
Barracat- For a purely ballistics comparison yes, for a popularity comparison it's a toss up to me. Popularity has less to do with ballistic capability and more with folklore. If it was mostly ballistic capability the military and civilian market alike would drop their 308's and move to 260's or 280 Rem's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i noticed alot of people said the reason is because they do not make many match grade bullets for the .270. I wasnt talking about paper but strictly hunting, who in the world needs match grade bullets for hunting. I personally have seen more 270 ammmo on the shelf than 308 everywhere i go. I noticed another big reason the 308 is more popular is because you can run a heavier bullet, which is better for long range, im guessing this is the biggest factor. But like one of you said, a deer isnt going to know the difference when hes shot, i guess comparing a 270 to a 308 in hunting is splitting hairs. thanks for the replies guys oh and one more thing, the 308 being a short action and lighter is a very big advantage when hunting in my opinion, thats another plus </div></div>
A 150gr 308 bullet and a 150gr 270 bullet are completely different animals. The 270 bullet will have appx the same BC as a ~200gr 308 bullet.
Berger does make a good 270 bullet but they're expensive, in the 30 cal market there's a lot of competition for high grade bullets.
Even for premium grade hunting bullets a lot of companies make excellent bullets for the 30 cals, but the 270 is limited to only a few.
The accuracy debate comes up for 308 vs. 30-06 and similarly the 270 would be very close to the 06 (same parent case)
This has been tested with precision rifles built to almost identical specs by the same builder and the 30-06 vs. the 308 is no difference in "inherent accuracy" but the large case capacity buys 2-300 fps increases in velocity.
The 270 will shoot very flat compared to a 308, and for hunting at longer ranges the 270 is going to be better suited for the job even if you know the exact range. The retained energy for the same weight bullet will be higher for the 270, it will have less flight time and similarly less wind drift (the true unknown in any shooting situation)
I would go out on a limb and say that a fair bit of the "unpopularity" (which is a bit laughable in itself) of the 270 is because it was never a military round like the 30-06 was.
Barracat- For a purely ballistics comparison yes, for a popularity comparison it's a toss up to me. Popularity has less to do with ballistic capability and more with folklore. If it was mostly ballistic capability the military and civilian market alike would drop their 308's and move to 260's or 280 Rem's
Re: 308 over 270????
Because the .270 kicks like a motherfucker, and the .308 is tame.
Fuck ballistics. I have a .308, good friend has a .270 (the Great American Hunting Cartridge IMO). I hate shooting his gun, even small loads. It makes me want to chuck that fucker down range every time I try.
Because the .270 kicks like a motherfucker, and the .308 is tame.
Fuck ballistics. I have a .308, good friend has a .270 (the Great American Hunting Cartridge IMO). I hate shooting his gun, even small loads. It makes me want to chuck that fucker down range every time I try.
Re: 308 over 270????
I have both a 270 and 308, use the 308 for targets, deer and hogs on our ranch but when I go on a hunt I take the 270 or my 300wsm. I have taken dall sheep in Alaska, elk, mule deer and plains game in Africa with the 270 with great results. The long action does not bother me in the least, but I do like the short actions. My 270 would be my billie barrule go to hunting gun. Also from what I have read there was a man named Jack O' Conner who liked to hunt with the 270 as well.
I have both a 270 and 308, use the 308 for targets, deer and hogs on our ranch but when I go on a hunt I take the 270 or my 300wsm. I have taken dall sheep in Alaska, elk, mule deer and plains game in Africa with the 270 with great results. The long action does not bother me in the least, but I do like the short actions. My 270 would be my billie barrule go to hunting gun. Also from what I have read there was a man named Jack O' Conner who liked to hunt with the 270 as well.
Re: 308 over 270????
.270 = Fanfriggingtastic hunting round because of its versatility on NA game (amongst others). Anywhere from varmints to Elk are GTG with a .270 and the right load.
.270 = Fanfriggingtastic hunting round because of its versatility on NA game (amongst others). Anywhere from varmints to Elk are GTG with a .270 and the right load.
Re: 308 over 270????
Ive shot both and i just feel as if the .270 lacks refinement...
Sure it shoots straight but it also leaves a hell of lot more muzzle blast.
Il take the .308 any day...
More projectiles available
Does the job
Ive shot both and i just feel as if the .270 lacks refinement...
Sure it shoots straight but it also leaves a hell of lot more muzzle blast.
Il take the .308 any day...
More projectiles available
Does the job
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive shot both and i just feel as if the .270 lacks refinement...
Sure it shoots straight but it also leaves a hell of lot more muzzle blast.
Il take the .308 any day...
More projectiles available
Does the job </div></div>
By that reasoning does the 338 LM lack even more refinement since it has more blast than a 270?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive shot both and i just feel as if the .270 lacks refinement...
Sure it shoots straight but it also leaves a hell of lot more muzzle blast.
Il take the .308 any day...
More projectiles available
Does the job </div></div>
By that reasoning does the 338 LM lack even more refinement since it has more blast than a 270?
Re: 308 over 270????
I didn't want to buy another size cleaning brush and already had one in .30 caliber so I went with a .308 instead of a .270.
Like the old saying: "Choose your cleaning brush, choose your caliber, choose your rifle."
I didn't want to buy another size cleaning brush and already had one in .30 caliber so I went with a .308 instead of a .270.
Like the old saying: "Choose your cleaning brush, choose your caliber, choose your rifle."
Re: 308 over 270????
You based your caliber decisions on 1 dollar brush? That's about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
You based your caliber decisions on 1 dollar brush? That's about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Re: 308 over 270????
I like what he said:
"Elmer Keith was right and Jack O’Connor was wrong; the .270 Winchester is not an elk cartridge."
http://www.quarterminutemagnums.com/the_truth_accurate_custom_hunting_rifles.asp
Also, if you notice there are a lot of .270 shooters mentioned in the thread below..... Ridiculous Accuracy Claims
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1607795#Post1607795
I don't think it's a coincidence. The .270 is bragged about by people who don't know any better.... Overrated- Period.
I like what he said:
"Elmer Keith was right and Jack O’Connor was wrong; the .270 Winchester is not an elk cartridge."
http://www.quarterminutemagnums.com/the_truth_accurate_custom_hunting_rifles.asp
Also, if you notice there are a lot of .270 shooters mentioned in the thread below..... Ridiculous Accuracy Claims
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1607795#Post1607795
I don't think it's a coincidence. The .270 is bragged about by people who don't know any better.... Overrated- Period.
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well ive been comparing the numbers and i just cant figure out why so many prefer a 308 over a 270 for hunting. All the way to 500yrds the 270 wins in every category. Now im not talking paper im talking hunting. Why are there NO .270s around here??? I have owned a 270 but not a .308 so its hard for me to compare. Someone help me out here, what could there possibly be that would have the 308 better when the 270 is faster flatter and hits harder???</div></div>
Old argument. They all kill, they all shoot well for their design. I hunt with both the 308 and the 270. I believe the 308 has got the edge on popularity but it does work so well at so many jobs... One of the best cartridges is the 30-06 and anything created off of it. The 308 can do almost the exact job as the 30-06 but in a shorter lighter package... It's hard to knock both of their successes and the cartridges they have spawned.........Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.
Pick your poison and use the hell out of it... I have many calibers and I grab whatever I am feeling the itch for....
.....have fun... SmokeRolls
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rackchaser71</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well ive been comparing the numbers and i just cant figure out why so many prefer a 308 over a 270 for hunting. All the way to 500yrds the 270 wins in every category. Now im not talking paper im talking hunting. Why are there NO .270s around here??? I have owned a 270 but not a .308 so its hard for me to compare. Someone help me out here, what could there possibly be that would have the 308 better when the 270 is faster flatter and hits harder???</div></div>
Old argument. They all kill, they all shoot well for their design. I hunt with both the 308 and the 270. I believe the 308 has got the edge on popularity but it does work so well at so many jobs... One of the best cartridges is the 30-06 and anything created off of it. The 308 can do almost the exact job as the 30-06 but in a shorter lighter package... It's hard to knock both of their successes and the cartridges they have spawned.........Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.
Pick your poison and use the hell out of it... I have many calibers and I grab whatever I am feeling the itch for....
.....have fun... SmokeRolls
Re: 308 over 270????
i agree a 270 is a great all around caliber. Shoots flats, a good size bullet for deer.. It might not be a perfect elk cartridge but its well capable of killing an elk. (Shot placement)
These caliber arguments can go on forever...
Smokerolls is right. "Pick your posion and use the hell out of it"
Its all what you prefer
i agree a 270 is a great all around caliber. Shoots flats, a good size bullet for deer.. It might not be a perfect elk cartridge but its well capable of killing an elk. (Shot placement)
These caliber arguments can go on forever...
Smokerolls is right. "Pick your posion and use the hell out of it"
Its all what you prefer
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkregulator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like what he said:
"Elmer Keith was right and Jack O’Connor was wrong; the .270 Winchester is not an elk cartridge."</div></div>
I guess your man shot down the .308 as an elk cartridge also with "If it can’t push a 180g bullet at 3000fps, it’s not enough gun for elk." Sounds like a wise one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkregulator</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The .270 is bragged about by people who don't know any better.... Overrated- Period.
</div></div>
Keep dreamin.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkregulator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like what he said:
"Elmer Keith was right and Jack O’Connor was wrong; the .270 Winchester is not an elk cartridge."</div></div>
I guess your man shot down the .308 as an elk cartridge also with "If it can’t push a 180g bullet at 3000fps, it’s not enough gun for elk." Sounds like a wise one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkregulator</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The .270 is bragged about by people who don't know any better.... Overrated- Period.
</div></div>
Keep dreamin.
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You based your caliber decisions on 1 dollar brush? That's about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. </div></div>
Maybe dumb but I'm just following the wisdom of the masters:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "Choose your cleaning brush, choose your caliber, choose your rifle."</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You based your caliber decisions on 1 dollar brush? That's about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. </div></div>
Maybe dumb but I'm just following the wisdom of the masters:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "Choose your cleaning brush, choose your caliber, choose your rifle."</div></div>
Re: 308 over 270????
I have both. I like them both.
In reality they both do the same thing, the differences are marginal but are obviously important to the individuals circumstances.
For example, you like the flat shooting 270, it makes no difference to me as I don't shoot like that. It makes a hell of a noise in a close environment which some people don't like, to me it isn't important.
I like the 308 as I can get a wide variety of bullets, cheap surplus ammo and good accuracy and it nails things.
I like the 270 as nothing gets up and walks away.
If I am on the open hill I take the 270, if I am going to be taking 400+ yards shots at Roe deer I take the 308.
Marginal, and not worth sweating about.
I have both. I like them both.
In reality they both do the same thing, the differences are marginal but are obviously important to the individuals circumstances.
For example, you like the flat shooting 270, it makes no difference to me as I don't shoot like that. It makes a hell of a noise in a close environment which some people don't like, to me it isn't important.
I like the 308 as I can get a wide variety of bullets, cheap surplus ammo and good accuracy and it nails things.
I like the 270 as nothing gets up and walks away.
If I am on the open hill I take the 270, if I am going to be taking 400+ yards shots at Roe deer I take the 308.
Marginal, and not worth sweating about.
Re: 308 over 270????
I have the .260, .280, and .30-'06, and have had the .308. I suspect that if I had the .270, I'd like it and also be somewhat disappointed at the limited selection of projectiles for non-hunting purposes. But for Hunting, it's clearly no chump.
Within limits, I'm a fan of energy. My limits are drawn by the .30-'06 case capacity, and based on that limit, I consider the .308 to be less capable than the others mentioned here.
Of the ones I own, I favor the .280 as a flat shooting LR capable chambering, having an edge on the .270 primarily based on available projectile variety. Aside from that, I see them running neck and neck.
No flies on any of this bunch, though; .308 included.
Greg
I have the .260, .280, and .30-'06, and have had the .308. I suspect that if I had the .270, I'd like it and also be somewhat disappointed at the limited selection of projectiles for non-hunting purposes. But for Hunting, it's clearly no chump.
Within limits, I'm a fan of energy. My limits are drawn by the .30-'06 case capacity, and based on that limit, I consider the .308 to be less capable than the others mentioned here.
Of the ones I own, I favor the .280 as a flat shooting LR capable chambering, having an edge on the .270 primarily based on available projectile variety. Aside from that, I see them running neck and neck.
No flies on any of this bunch, though; .308 included.
Greg
Re: 308 over 270????
I have a .270, and I have a .308. I used to use the .270 to hunt; now, it sits in the safe.
When I first started shooting for accuracy, the .270 was the best I had. I shot it a lot, and it did great in the woods. Then, I found a 700P in .308, bought it, and then found Sniper's Hide. I ended up shooting the heavier, lighter recoiling, cheaper to feed (for me- I got some free brass at the time) .308 all the time instead of the .270. When hunting season came around again, I grabbed the rifle I was most confident with- the .308. Either one does fine, but the .308 was the one that I was used to shooting.
I'd really like to put a good stock on the .270, rebarrel it to .280AI, and get back to shooting it, though.
I have a .270, and I have a .308. I used to use the .270 to hunt; now, it sits in the safe.
When I first started shooting for accuracy, the .270 was the best I had. I shot it a lot, and it did great in the woods. Then, I found a 700P in .308, bought it, and then found Sniper's Hide. I ended up shooting the heavier, lighter recoiling, cheaper to feed (for me- I got some free brass at the time) .308 all the time instead of the .270. When hunting season came around again, I grabbed the rifle I was most confident with- the .308. Either one does fine, but the .308 was the one that I was used to shooting.
I'd really like to put a good stock on the .270, rebarrel it to .280AI, and get back to shooting it, though.
Re: 308 over 270????
In my way of thinking, the .308 is a multi-purpose round suitable for a variety of uses, from big game hunting to targets to military/LE roles. It does them all pretty well and no one will knock the .308's flexibility.
The .270 is a medium to big game round with relatively high velocity and low recoil. That's pretty much all it is, but it fills that role very nicely. It is over 80 years old, but I still consider the 270WCF to be the gold standard for deer cartridges. On the hunting field, especially pre-LRF, the classic .270 130gr/3100fps load is a bit flatter-shooting than a 150gr .30cal at 2850fps. Rangefinders have somewhat lessened the appeal of a flatter trajectory at the cost of BC and downrange energy/velocity.
No flies on either as a game round, as I've used both. Other than that, gimme the .308win......
In my way of thinking, the .308 is a multi-purpose round suitable for a variety of uses, from big game hunting to targets to military/LE roles. It does them all pretty well and no one will knock the .308's flexibility.
The .270 is a medium to big game round with relatively high velocity and low recoil. That's pretty much all it is, but it fills that role very nicely. It is over 80 years old, but I still consider the 270WCF to be the gold standard for deer cartridges. On the hunting field, especially pre-LRF, the classic .270 130gr/3100fps load is a bit flatter-shooting than a 150gr .30cal at 2850fps. Rangefinders have somewhat lessened the appeal of a flatter trajectory at the cost of BC and downrange energy/velocity.
No flies on either as a game round, as I've used both. Other than that, gimme the .308win......
Re: 308 over 270????
It's funny how these threads take on a life of there own. It all began with a simple question:
"Why is it the so many prefer the 308 Winchester over the 270 for hunting?"
There were all sorts of answers, of the why and how, but it really comes down to three simple reasons:
1) Technology:
Go back 25-30 years ago. There was little understanding of ranging with reticle, no laser range finders, and only a modest few were experimenting with long range shooting of game. In fact, long range shooting of game was for the most part considered unethical, by the hunting community.
To extend a cartridges effectiveness, publications were filled with sighting in tips, like sight your rifle 3" high @100 yds, and your good to 300 yds or more.
The 270 simply shoots good bullets faster and flatter than a 308. So the 308 in hunting cirles was relegated to a "woods" hunting round, and 270 Winny as a long range plains game specialist.
But with the advent of ranging reticle, laser rangefinders, and exposed adjustable turrets, the game changed. The flatter shooting 270 now held no real advantages over the 308.
A savy shooter with his accurate 308, a LRF, and turrets, could place a 150 to 165 grain bullet into a deers vitals, @ 500 yds, easier than a 270 shooter could without an LRF, and turrets.
The the deer did not care. Stick a 150 gr 30 cal bullet moving @ 1800 FPS, into a deers vitals @ 500 yds, and he was just a dead, as a 130 270 bullet moving 200 fps faster.
2) Dual Use:
The 270 is a hunting cartridge, chambered in hunting rifles. And there is nothing wrong with that combo.
But the 308 emerged as a dual use cartridge. Get a heavy barreled 308, use it for hunting, and target shooting. If fact the use of the 308 as a long range target rifle, it what has propelled it to exceed the 270 as a hunting round.
There is nothing wrong with the 270 for hunting, just like there is nothing wrong with the 308 for hunting. But as a dual use cartridge the 308 can live nicely in both worlds.
3) Bullets:
Although there is merit in saying that the 308 is more popular than the 270 because match bullets are available for the 308 and not the 270. But it is deeper than that.
Fashion in the shooting world does play a big role. At one time the "fashion" was all cup and core bullets were "old school". A proper hunting round had to use a "controlled expansion" bullet.
An entire bullet industry was built around this concept. Hunters were conviced that deer and other game was not falling due to bad bullets. And do not even mention the use "match" bullets on game. Match bullets would "bounce off" if fired at a deer.
Now we again have come full circle. Hunters were now getting influenced by long range shooters who were: killing deer at ranges unthinkable a few decades earlier, and were in fact killing deer with the dreaded and weak "match bullets".
WTF??? Well what happened was that folks realized that where you hit game was bit more important than what you hit them with. And deer are notoriously easy to kill with a good hit, and notoriously hard to kill with a bad hit, no matter what bullet is used.
Further, since game is now being shot at ranges that 20-30 years ago would seem unthinkable and unethical, the entire rational for "contolled expansion", has been turned on it's head. "Controlled expansion" is more important under 200 yds than over 200 yds. Shoot a "weak" bullet too fast, it "blows up" and does not penetrate the vitals. But "blow up" happens at close range, and high velocity, not long range and relativeily "low" velocity.
So a match bullet that "might" fail @ 50 yds, now it just hitting it's stride at 300 yds. or beyond, and expands well due to it's weak jacket. Conversely, the vaunted "controlled expansion" bullet expands not at all below 1800 FPS or so. So it's worse at long range, than at closer ranges.
Now of course the hunting mantra is "accuracy". And since 308 winny are commonly made in more accurate rifles than your average 270, accuracy is > velocity for hunting in the new lexicon.
What does it all mean? Nothing really. Take a 308 out hunting, put your bullet in the right place = dead bambi. Take granddad's 270 out, do the same thing = same result.
Fashion, technology and perception is what makes cartidges popular, for hunting, not effectiveness.
One only has to look at how the 6.5 calibers are taking off in tactical and target shooting. In a few years they will be the "thing" for hunting, and everything else "old school".
Although I suspect the olde 308 will still plug along as will the 270 winchester.
Bob
It's funny how these threads take on a life of there own. It all began with a simple question:
"Why is it the so many prefer the 308 Winchester over the 270 for hunting?"
There were all sorts of answers, of the why and how, but it really comes down to three simple reasons:
1) Technology:
Go back 25-30 years ago. There was little understanding of ranging with reticle, no laser range finders, and only a modest few were experimenting with long range shooting of game. In fact, long range shooting of game was for the most part considered unethical, by the hunting community.
To extend a cartridges effectiveness, publications were filled with sighting in tips, like sight your rifle 3" high @100 yds, and your good to 300 yds or more.
The 270 simply shoots good bullets faster and flatter than a 308. So the 308 in hunting cirles was relegated to a "woods" hunting round, and 270 Winny as a long range plains game specialist.
But with the advent of ranging reticle, laser rangefinders, and exposed adjustable turrets, the game changed. The flatter shooting 270 now held no real advantages over the 308.
A savy shooter with his accurate 308, a LRF, and turrets, could place a 150 to 165 grain bullet into a deers vitals, @ 500 yds, easier than a 270 shooter could without an LRF, and turrets.
The the deer did not care. Stick a 150 gr 30 cal bullet moving @ 1800 FPS, into a deers vitals @ 500 yds, and he was just a dead, as a 130 270 bullet moving 200 fps faster.
2) Dual Use:
The 270 is a hunting cartridge, chambered in hunting rifles. And there is nothing wrong with that combo.
But the 308 emerged as a dual use cartridge. Get a heavy barreled 308, use it for hunting, and target shooting. If fact the use of the 308 as a long range target rifle, it what has propelled it to exceed the 270 as a hunting round.
There is nothing wrong with the 270 for hunting, just like there is nothing wrong with the 308 for hunting. But as a dual use cartridge the 308 can live nicely in both worlds.
3) Bullets:
Although there is merit in saying that the 308 is more popular than the 270 because match bullets are available for the 308 and not the 270. But it is deeper than that.
Fashion in the shooting world does play a big role. At one time the "fashion" was all cup and core bullets were "old school". A proper hunting round had to use a "controlled expansion" bullet.
An entire bullet industry was built around this concept. Hunters were conviced that deer and other game was not falling due to bad bullets. And do not even mention the use "match" bullets on game. Match bullets would "bounce off" if fired at a deer.
Now we again have come full circle. Hunters were now getting influenced by long range shooters who were: killing deer at ranges unthinkable a few decades earlier, and were in fact killing deer with the dreaded and weak "match bullets".
WTF??? Well what happened was that folks realized that where you hit game was bit more important than what you hit them with. And deer are notoriously easy to kill with a good hit, and notoriously hard to kill with a bad hit, no matter what bullet is used.
Further, since game is now being shot at ranges that 20-30 years ago would seem unthinkable and unethical, the entire rational for "contolled expansion", has been turned on it's head. "Controlled expansion" is more important under 200 yds than over 200 yds. Shoot a "weak" bullet too fast, it "blows up" and does not penetrate the vitals. But "blow up" happens at close range, and high velocity, not long range and relativeily "low" velocity.
So a match bullet that "might" fail @ 50 yds, now it just hitting it's stride at 300 yds. or beyond, and expands well due to it's weak jacket. Conversely, the vaunted "controlled expansion" bullet expands not at all below 1800 FPS or so. So it's worse at long range, than at closer ranges.
Now of course the hunting mantra is "accuracy". And since 308 winny are commonly made in more accurate rifles than your average 270, accuracy is > velocity for hunting in the new lexicon.
What does it all mean? Nothing really. Take a 308 out hunting, put your bullet in the right place = dead bambi. Take granddad's 270 out, do the same thing = same result.
Fashion, technology and perception is what makes cartidges popular, for hunting, not effectiveness.
One only has to look at how the 6.5 calibers are taking off in tactical and target shooting. In a few years they will be the "thing" for hunting, and everything else "old school".
Although I suspect the olde 308 will still plug along as will the 270 winchester.
Bob
Re: 308 over 270????
This outta get ya'll wound up!
When my grandfather returned home from the war (WWII) some time afterwards he went and bought (what my father refers to as) "The Sister Set". Two rifles near identical to each other. One chambered in .30-06 and the other in .270Win. Made by Husqvuarna.
This is because my grandmother and their nine kids went everywhere with grandpa, including the fishing and hunting trips. The '06 was his, and the .270 was hers.
I have them both now. (May God Rest Their Souls)
To me, justifiably so, the .270Win shall always and forever be know as "Granny's Gun"
Now ya'll do with that what you will. One day, I'll pass them down to my son.
This outta get ya'll wound up!
When my grandfather returned home from the war (WWII) some time afterwards he went and bought (what my father refers to as) "The Sister Set". Two rifles near identical to each other. One chambered in .30-06 and the other in .270Win. Made by Husqvuarna.
This is because my grandmother and their nine kids went everywhere with grandpa, including the fishing and hunting trips. The '06 was his, and the .270 was hers.
I have them both now. (May God Rest Their Souls)
To me, justifiably so, the .270Win shall always and forever be know as "Granny's Gun"
Now ya'll do with that what you will. One day, I'll pass them down to my son.
Re: 308 over 270????
Why bother with the 270 when you can have a 270WSM? Shoots flatter and carries more energy at long range. Costs more too!
But back to the 270 vs 308 .. more bullets available for the 308 is one thing, but realistically you don't need match grade bullets to kill a dear out to 300 yards anyway. You don't need sub-moa for hunting deer/elk.
Might as well ask why people choose chevy over ford. Just shoot what you like.
Why bother with the 270 when you can have a 270WSM? Shoots flatter and carries more energy at long range. Costs more too!
But back to the 270 vs 308 .. more bullets available for the 308 is one thing, but realistically you don't need match grade bullets to kill a dear out to 300 yards anyway. You don't need sub-moa for hunting deer/elk.
Might as well ask why people choose chevy over ford. Just shoot what you like.
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 is a gay redneck hunting round, used by people who think BDC Redfield scopes are the shit for longrange 200 yard hunting.</div></div>
That's rather Silly. Never understand some people's kids.
You put the same effert in building the gun and ammo in a 270 as you do the 308 you can get ever bit the same results.
Try the Berger 277 150 grn bullet and tell me a 270 wont shoot.
Yeah I used 308s in my High Power. When I was shooting for the Guard they didnt issue M14s in 270. Now I'm working my way into 223s in high power. That certainly dosnt mean the 223 is a better round then the 270, it just means that there arnt that many AR 270 service rifles out there.
I have an 06 1000 yard bolt gun, and when the barrel goes I'm replacing it with a 270 FOR 1000 YARD MATCHES.
Oh........as a side point, I never felt the need to hunt anything over 200 yards, If I'm going hunting, I'm hunting, if I"m long range shooting I'll hit a rifle match.
I have shot enough 1000 yards matches to know that a gust of wind or a boil will throw my 200 grn 300 WM off target, I have no desire to gut shoot something at 1000 yards so it can crawl off and die a painful death.
So I guess Ill stick to being a Gay Rednect Hunter with my 200 yards shots with my 270............just sorry I couldnt find a BDC for my Weaver 4X fixed scope.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 is a gay redneck hunting round, used by people who think BDC Redfield scopes are the shit for longrange 200 yard hunting.</div></div>
That's rather Silly. Never understand some people's kids.
You put the same effert in building the gun and ammo in a 270 as you do the 308 you can get ever bit the same results.
Try the Berger 277 150 grn bullet and tell me a 270 wont shoot.
Yeah I used 308s in my High Power. When I was shooting for the Guard they didnt issue M14s in 270. Now I'm working my way into 223s in high power. That certainly dosnt mean the 223 is a better round then the 270, it just means that there arnt that many AR 270 service rifles out there.
I have an 06 1000 yard bolt gun, and when the barrel goes I'm replacing it with a 270 FOR 1000 YARD MATCHES.
Oh........as a side point, I never felt the need to hunt anything over 200 yards, If I'm going hunting, I'm hunting, if I"m long range shooting I'll hit a rifle match.
I have shot enough 1000 yards matches to know that a gust of wind or a boil will throw my 200 grn 300 WM off target, I have no desire to gut shoot something at 1000 yards so it can crawl off and die a painful death.
So I guess Ill stick to being a Gay Rednect Hunter with my 200 yards shots with my 270............just sorry I couldnt find a BDC for my Weaver 4X fixed scope.
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A savy shooter with his accurate 308, a LRF, and turrets, could place a 150 to 165 grain bullet into a deers vitals, @ 500 yds, easier than a 270 shooter could without an LRF, and turrets.</div></div>
While I don't consider myself a "savy" shooter, I take the LRF and the .270 hunting and never wish I had my .308 with me.
If I was only allowed to keep one hunting rifle, it would be my .270. If I was only allowed to keep one rifle period, it would be a .308. Luckily, we are still able to keep both.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A savy shooter with his accurate 308, a LRF, and turrets, could place a 150 to 165 grain bullet into a deers vitals, @ 500 yds, easier than a 270 shooter could without an LRF, and turrets.</div></div>
While I don't consider myself a "savy" shooter, I take the LRF and the .270 hunting and never wish I had my .308 with me.
If I was only allowed to keep one hunting rifle, it would be my .270. If I was only allowed to keep one rifle period, it would be a .308. Luckily, we are still able to keep both.
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 is a gay redneck hunting round, used by people who think BDC Redfield scopes are the shit for longrange 200 yard hunting. </div></div>
lmao.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 is a gay redneck hunting round, used by people who think BDC Redfield scopes are the shit for longrange 200 yard hunting. </div></div>
lmao.....
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 is a gay redneck hunting round, used by people who think BDC Redfield scopes are the shit for longrange 200 yard hunting. </div></div>
Honestly don't know why the mods put up with this kind of shit. Doesn't add anything useful to the thread.
FWIW, I hunted for years with a .270, then bought a 300wm after thinking I need more horsepower. I don't. Turned my WM into my 1000+ rifle and am getting another .270 for next hunting season.
BTW, these two badboys had no idea that they weren't shot with a .308. The .270 is one badass hunting round
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 is a gay redneck hunting round, used by people who think BDC Redfield scopes are the shit for longrange 200 yard hunting. </div></div>
Honestly don't know why the mods put up with this kind of shit. Doesn't add anything useful to the thread.
FWIW, I hunted for years with a .270, then bought a 300wm after thinking I need more horsepower. I don't. Turned my WM into my 1000+ rifle and am getting another .270 for next hunting season.
BTW, these two badboys had no idea that they weren't shot with a .308. The .270 is one badass hunting round
John
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't it be a more fair comparison for the .270 vs the 30-06?</div></div>
yeah it would. both are basically the same cartridge, long actions. that would be closer to a "apples to apples" thing.
on that, probably as a all around hunting round, the .3006 would be better being able to find or make loads for anything between a varmint round to bear, elk, and maybe moose.
probably also the best reasons the .308 is more popular than the .270:
1. military round
2. no shortage of ammo choices
3. lower recoil, able to be handled by smaller framed people
4. possibly the most engineered and tested round
5. shorter action, shorter / lighter rifle
6. no shortage of data based on all of the above.
7. not too big, not too small
the .270 is a great round, not knocking it a bit. just reasoning why .308s are more popular / chosen.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't it be a more fair comparison for the .270 vs the 30-06?</div></div>
yeah it would. both are basically the same cartridge, long actions. that would be closer to a "apples to apples" thing.
on that, probably as a all around hunting round, the .3006 would be better being able to find or make loads for anything between a varmint round to bear, elk, and maybe moose.
probably also the best reasons the .308 is more popular than the .270:
1. military round
2. no shortage of ammo choices
3. lower recoil, able to be handled by smaller framed people
4. possibly the most engineered and tested round
5. shorter action, shorter / lighter rifle
6. no shortage of data based on all of the above.
7. not too big, not too small
the .270 is a great round, not knocking it a bit. just reasoning why .308s are more popular / chosen.
Re: 308 over 270????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 is a gay redneck hunting round, used by people who think BDC Redfield scopes are the shit for longrange 200 yard hunting. </div></div>
Honestly don't know why the mods put up with this kind of shit. Doesn't add anything useful to the thread.
FWIW, I hunted for years with a .270, then bought a 300wm after thinking I need more horsepower. I don't. Turned my WM into my 1000+ rifle and am getting another .270 for next hunting season.
BTW, these two badboys had no idea that they weren't shot with a .308. The .270 is one badass hunting round
John
</div></div>
jrob: Those look like two little runts...hahhahahaha... Just kidding. I would be proud of those anyday. Nice job. SmokeRolls
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">270 is a gay redneck hunting round, used by people who think BDC Redfield scopes are the shit for longrange 200 yard hunting. </div></div>
Honestly don't know why the mods put up with this kind of shit. Doesn't add anything useful to the thread.
FWIW, I hunted for years with a .270, then bought a 300wm after thinking I need more horsepower. I don't. Turned my WM into my 1000+ rifle and am getting another .270 for next hunting season.
BTW, these two badboys had no idea that they weren't shot with a .308. The .270 is one badass hunting round
John
</div></div>
jrob: Those look like two little runts...hahhahahaha... Just kidding. I would be proud of those anyday. Nice job. SmokeRolls
Re: 308 over 270????
thanks guys
thanks guys
Re: 308 over 270????
You are on a website for military and LE...and ask why everyone prefers the standard NATO round vs a popular hunting round. Gee, lemme figure that one out. Go to a hunting website and see what kind of answer you get.
You are on a website for military and LE...and ask why everyone prefers the standard NATO round vs a popular hunting round. Gee, lemme figure that one out. Go to a hunting website and see what kind of answer you get.
Re: 308 over 270????
Id choose the .338LM over a .270 any day.
End of the day im interested in BC's and rounds that have had the most amount of money invested into understanding how to better that round.
The .308 win is one such round and this is reflected by amount of projectiles on the market.
The .338LM is a purpose built round that was designed to fit the bill between a .300 Winmag and a .50cal, or somewhere there abouts, and still retain enough energy past 1000 to penetrate body armour and kill.
Like everyones been saying, its all about shot placement... i just prefer the .308 over the .270
Id choose the .338LM over a .270 any day.
End of the day im interested in BC's and rounds that have had the most amount of money invested into understanding how to better that round.
The .308 win is one such round and this is reflected by amount of projectiles on the market.
The .338LM is a purpose built round that was designed to fit the bill between a .300 Winmag and a .50cal, or somewhere there abouts, and still retain enough energy past 1000 to penetrate body armour and kill.
Like everyones been saying, its all about shot placement... i just prefer the .308 over the .270
Re: 308 over 270????
I prefer 6.5 ( 6.5x47, 260 rem, 6.5 creedmoor) over both 308 and 270
I prefer 6.5 ( 6.5x47, 260 rem, 6.5 creedmoor) over both 308 and 270
Re: 308 over 270????
6.5 or .308
other than that....
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6.5 or .308
other than that....
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Re: 308 over 270????
My first rifle was a .270 my dad gave me, great gun, kicks like a mule, and kills deer as good any other caliber. I love shooting it, reminds me that I am shooting a rifle. Its got a sporter stock, pencil barrel, and a Leupy 6X on it. It great for fast acquisition on deer.
My first rifle was a .270 my dad gave me, great gun, kicks like a mule, and kills deer as good any other caliber. I love shooting it, reminds me that I am shooting a rifle. Its got a sporter stock, pencil barrel, and a Leupy 6X on it. It great for fast acquisition on deer.
Re: 308 over 270????
hmmmm really smart ass then maybe you should get ahold of the mods and have them delete the hunting section of this website and ask everyone thats not mil or leo to leave, move on dumb ass<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are on a website for military and LE...and ask why everyone prefers the standard NATO round vs a popular hunting round. Gee, lemme figure that one out. Go to a hunting website and see what kind of answer you get. </div></div>
hmmmm really smart ass then maybe you should get ahold of the mods and have them delete the hunting section of this website and ask everyone thats not mil or leo to leave, move on dumb ass<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are on a website for military and LE...and ask why everyone prefers the standard NATO round vs a popular hunting round. Gee, lemme figure that one out. Go to a hunting website and see what kind of answer you get. </div></div>
