.308 stumper

[r0ttie1]

I have a Savage .308 FP. I've been reloading .223 and pistol rounds for years with nothing I couldn't figure out. Here's my problem. New ammo chambers and extracts effortlessly in the rifle. I clean and reload the cases and I can't get some to chamber or more often, I have to fight to extract the fired case. I have a head space gauge and all the cases fit in with no problem. My OAL is just a hair shy of 2.8 with 175 grain bullets. I had the same issues with 150 grain bullets. I'm using a Dillon 550 press and went there today with my headspace gauge, 1 Black Hills 175 grain match bullet, 1 reload 175 grain that wouldn't chamber and 1 reload 175 grain that I have to fight to extract. I talked to two people at the counter, one of which made a phone call and left with a extension and name to call. They were both real friendly and helpful, but I got no solution. I figured I'd post here and see if I could get any ideas before I call the extension they gave me.

I appreciate any help you can give me.

 

[badbot]

Re: .308 stumper

if it fit before fireing and sticks after, your over loading.
pull the bullets and weigh your charges verify what powder it is.

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if it fit before fireing and sticks after, your over loading.
pull the bullets and weigh your charges verify what powder it is.</div></div>
They stick after reloading and before firing as well.

 

[SavageSlayer]

Re: .308 stumper

Sounds like the the first loadings may have been a little hot. Try full length sizing the brass or bumping the shoulder back a couple of thousands and see if you still have a problem with them chambering. If there is a problem with full length sized brass chambering then you have bigger issues. If not then it appears that your loads are too hot and need to be backed off. Are there any pressure signs such as flattened or cratered primers?

 

[former naval person]

Re: .308 stumper

If you are full length sizing, and don't quite get the shoulder when resizing, the case grows in length. That will keep you from chambering a sized round. Try resizing the same case and turn the die into the press about 1/16th of a turn at a time and keep trying it back in the rifle. You'll probably find a point where one resizing is difficult to close the bolt and the next 1/16th turn lets the handle drop down. If you find that when the shell holder and die are rock solid and you still have the problem you may need a shorter shell holder or shorten the die mouth a couple of thousandths. JMHO

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T-Money</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like the the first loadings may have been a little hot. Try full length sizing the brass or bumping the shoulder back a couple of thousands and see if you still have a problem with them chambering. If there is a problem with full length sized brass chambering then you have bigger issues. If not then it appears that your loads are too hot and need to be backed off. Are there any pressure signs such as flattened or cratered primers? </div></div>
The first loadings were the factory load. I'm full length sizing and have played with the sizing die, raising and lowering it.

 

[SavageSlayer]

Re: .308 stumper

Have you checked your chamber for any burs? Is it clean?

 

[MLC]

Re: .308 stumper

How long is your sized brass?

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T-Money</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you checked your chamber for any burs? Is it clean?</div></div>
I haven't, but I would think that if that was the issue, It would surface on factory rounds as well. I'm thinking of buying a bullet comparator to see if that sheds any light on my problem.

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How long is your sized brass?
</div></div>
It's once fired brass.

 

[308sako]

Re: .308 stumper

Deleted in protest!

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It sounds like the brass isn't being bumped enough. A fired case I assume chambers easily enough; however a sized (not loaded case) doesn't want to go back into the chamber. Therefore the case is growing in length just before the BUMP occurs. There have been many threads on this behavior recently.

Set the die to size further down and bump the shoulder till the case chambers easily once again.</div></div>
I've tried that but the round is below the minimum on the headspace gauge. It also seemed to cause a couple of rounds not firing. Firing pin mark on the case and no BANG.

 

[JuniperEyes]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are full length sizing, and don't quite get the shoulder when resizing, the case grows in length. That will keep you from chambering a sized round. Try resizing the same case and turn the die into the press about 1/16th of a turn at a time and keep trying it back in the rifle. You'll probably find a point where one resizing is difficult to close the bolt and the next 1/16th turn lets the handle drop down. If you find that when the shell holder and die are rock solid and you still have the problem you may need a shorter shell holder or shorten the die mouth a couple of thousandths. JMHO </div></div>


There lies the answer.

Shell holder in particuar more likely than not...

 

[MLC]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: r0ttie1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How long is your sized brass?
</div></div>
It's once fired brass. </div></div>

But how long is it after you size it?
If your brass is longer than the chamber you will have issues as others have noted.
When I started hand loading I over sized my 6mm brass.
It made the brass, in the neck, much longer than my chamber and I had a hell of a time closing the bolt.
Once I identified the issue, trimming to the correct length remedied the situation pretty quickly.

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: r0ttie1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How long is your sized brass?
</div></div>
It's once fired brass. </div></div>

But how long is it after you size it?
If your brass is longer than the chamber you will have issues as others have noted.
When I started hand loading I over sized my 6mm brass.
It made the brass, in the neck, much longer than my chamber and I had a hell of a time closing the bolt.
Once I identified the issue, trimming to the correct length remedied the situation pretty quickly.</div></div>
I bought a trim die while I was at Dillon today but the brass really doesn't extend past the bottom of the headspace gauge.

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.S.T. Glenn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are full length sizing, and don't quite get the shoulder when resizing, the case grows in length. That will keep you from chambering a sized round. Try resizing the same case and turn the die into the press about 1/16th of a turn at a time and keep trying it back in the rifle. You'll probably find a point where one resizing is difficult to close the bolt and the next 1/16th turn lets the handle drop down. If you find that when the shell holder and die are rock solid and you still have the problem you may need a shorter shell holder or shorten the die mouth a couple of thousandths. JMHO </div></div>


There lies the answer.

Shell holder in particuar more likely than not... </div></div>
I'll try lowering the shell holder lower, but on a Dillon press, it rotates and if you get it to low, it sticks. I'm pretty close to the point it sticks.

 

[308sako]

Re: .308 stumper

Deleted in protest!

 

[Country]

Re: .308 stumper

Just move the die down 1/8 of a turn at a time and try the fired case in the chamber untill the bolt just closes on the case . Then turn the die down 1/16 of a turn more and lock it.
A good die to have on hand for this kind of issue is a body die as it can be used to shoulder bump loaded rounds in an emergency .

 

[Williamb]

Re: .308 stumper

If you are camming over and still no joy, then your shell holder is more than likely too tall.

I think 308sako was spot on. To get full length resizing using a standard shell holder which would be the case using the Dillon you need to make sure the press is camming otherwise it is not Full length. I had an issue like this years ago. Good luck.

 

[former naval person]

Re: .308 stumper

Screwing the case holder plate on the Dillon down till it jams will NOT cause more bumping of the shoulder. (The looseness is necessary for the plate to turn, just not too much to cause shallow seating of the primers.) The bumping is determined by the ram to die vertical relation. If the die is hard against the plate when the handle is down and all the slack is out of the system, you need the bottom of the die cut back a few thousandths. Tolerance stack-up may be your problem.

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Screwing the case holder plate on the Dillon down till it jams will NOT cause more bumping of the shoulder. (The looseness is necessary for the plate to turn, just not too much to cause shallow seating of the primers.) The bumping is determined by the ram to die vertical relation. If the die is hard against the plate when the handle is down and all the slack is out of the system, you need the bottom of the die cut back a few thousandths. Tolerance stack-up may be your problem.</div></div>
Pardon my stupidity, but what is tolerance stack up? I haven't screwed down the shell holder until it jams, I adjust it until it's starting to jam and back it off a touch.

 

[former naval person]

Re: .308 stumper

Tolerance stack up,if I can try to explain with the limited English and engineering knowledge I have, happens when you go to the limits of tolerances of the machining process you are doing. In other words...you are doing ten processes on a piece of rod. Limits of tolerance are .001 plus or minus in inches. In one case, you machine the rod plus .001 for the whole 10 steps. In the other case, you miss it .001 for the minus 10 steps. In other words, you have a rod that is .02 shorter or longer than is specified. In the real world that would be a worse case scenario, and wouldn't be manufactured. But, a couple of thousandths one way or another might...so, you might have a die that is at the long end of acceptance, and plate and ram that were at the minimum end. When you put them together, different manufacturers and different dies...you may not get the minimum/maximum results you want. You can have a situation that even when you screw the die in as far as you can, it won't be enough to fully resize the case. Conversely, you can have a combination that will fully resize the case WITHOUT bottoming out the resizing die. That leads to excess headspace and a KABOOM. You HAVE to know what you are doing and why. With all the dies and manufacturers and presses out there...you NEED to know what and why before you shoot. Get books, read the online tutorials that have been recently published, and don't rely on website recommendations without research. JMHO

 

[former naval person]

Re: .308 stumper

Also, rereading your last question, you misunderstand the function of the shell plate, ram and die situations. When the ram is up and the handle is down, AND the die is fully screwed in to a function fit...you cannot change the distance between the shoulder and the base of the case. It is fixed. If the shell holder in the Dillon is loose or tight makes no difference. The distance is set within the slop in the system. You are FORCING the case into the die with a hard locked system with the ram and the die in contact. The tightness or looseness of the shell plate makes NO difference. That distance from the ram face to the die inside shoulder is the headspace that you are manufacturing. When you back off the case holder you are only doing two things...you are making it easier to turn the plate, and you are moving the plate farther from the base, decreasing the depth of primer seating. Look at the system and evaluate what you have there! When you have the ram at it's utmost upward travel and back the die out of the press, you have made the case shoulder able to move higher (or longer as you prefer to name it). When you screw it in, you shorten the base shoulder dimension, reducing headspace. If the die is too long, you will NOT be able to screw it in farther toward the ram and size (or shorten) the case to fit your chamber (that is what the folks here call "bumping the shoulder"). I feel that you need to research the subject more and perhaps start precision loading with a single stage press. You may be "running before you can walk", as my dearly departed Mama used to tell me. JMHO

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, rereading your last question, you misunderstand the function of the shell plate, ram and die situations. When the ram is up and the handle is down, AND the die is fully screwed in to a function fit...you cannot change the distance between the shoulder and the base of the case. It is fixed. If the shell holder in the Dillon is loose or tight makes no difference. The distance is set within the slop in the system. You are FORCING the case into the die with a hard locked system with the ram and the die in contact. The tightness or looseness of the shell plate makes NO difference. That distance from the ram face to the die inside shoulder is the headspace that you are manufacturing. When you back off the case holder you are only doing two things...you are making it easier to turn the plate, and you are moving the plate farther from the base, decreasing the depth of primer seating. Look at the system and evaluate what you have there! When you have the ram at it's utmost upward travel and back the die out of the press, you have made the case shoulder able to move higher (or longer as you prefer to name it). When you screw it in, you shorten the base shoulder dimension, reducing headspace. If the die is too long, you will NOT be able to screw it in farther toward the ram and size (or shorten) the case to fit your chamber (that is what the folks here call "bumping the shoulder"). I feel that you need to research the subject more and perhaps start precision loading with a single stage press. You may be "running before you can walk", as my dearly departed Mama used to tell me. JMHO</div></div>
I very well could be "running before I can walk" but have never had problems I couldn't solve in pistol or .223 caliber reloading which I've done for years. The only options I have with the resizing die is raise or lower the die. I have no doubt you have more expertize in reloading than I, but I don't see any advantage in a single stage press at this point. If I was a benchrest shooter, I'd be more knowledgeable and could see the benefit, but I'm just hunting for a reload that will function properly in my rifle. As far as the shell plate goes, I was just responding to a suggestion that that is my problem in a previous post. If the die was to long as you suggest, maybe I need to go back to Dillon and ask for a new carbide resizing die and eliminate that from the equation. I'm somewhat frustrated that Dillon couldn't offer a solution and a discussion of esoteric reloading principles here has brought me no closer to a solution. I have a order in for a Overall Length Gauge and Bullet Comparator to try to resolve this riddle. Do not misinterpret this post, I'm appreciative of all suggestions, I'm just searching for a solution.

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Screwing the case holder plate on the Dillon down till it jams will NOT cause more bumping of the shoulder. (The looseness is necessary for the plate to turn, just not too much to cause shallow seating of the primers.) The bumping is determined by the ram to die vertical relation. If the die is hard against the plate when the handle is down and all the slack is out of the system, you need the bottom of the die cut back a few thousandths. Tolerance stack-up may be your problem. </div></div>
If I do what you suggest in this post, the round is way past the bottom of my headspace gauge. I'm not placing the die hard against the shellplate.

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: r0ttie1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It sounds like the brass isn't being bumped enough. A fired case I assume chambers easily enough; however a sized (not loaded case) doesn't want to go back into the chamber. Therefore the case is growing in length just before the BUMP occurs. There have been many threads on this behavior recently.

Set the die to size further down and bump the shoulder till the case chambers easily once again.</div></div>
I've tried that but the round is below the minimum on the headspace gauge. It also seemed to cause a couple of rounds not firing. Firing pin mark on the case and no BANG. </div></div>


Regarding the guage, it is not your chamber, which in this case is what you are trying to fit. Once again, size the cases more and more until they fit back into the chamber. If you are camming over and still no joy, then your shell holder is more than likely too tall. Have faith, others have suffered before you!

On the light hits, I would suspect a different cause regarding that issue.</div></div>

I'm still searching for the light.

 

[former naval person]

Re: .308 stumper

Well, if you are sure it is not headspace, it probably is that your die doesn't match your chamber. Either smoke a resized case or coat it with magic-marker and try to chamber it and extract it a couple of times and see where the marks are...may be that you aren't able to size the base enough with your die, or you could have an "egg" shaped chamber...happened to me years ago with a factory Remmy.

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, if you are sure it is not headspace, it probably is that your die doesn't match your chamber. Either smoke a resized case or coat it with magic-marker and try to chamber it and extract it a couple of times and see where the marks are...may be that you aren't able to size the base enough with your die, or you could have an "egg" shaped chamber...happened to me years ago with a factory Remmy. </div></div>
I went to the gun club yesterday and while there, struck up a conversation with a gentleman I had met once before. We discussed this problem I'm having and I told him I have a OAL gauge and bullet comparator being shipped to me. He said he has all the gauges at home and invited me to his house after we were done shooting. This is what he found:

Chamber length 2.038
My trim to length 2.014
Head space (bump back) .003

Evidently I need to trim my once fired cases as he said it a real short chamber. Once my gauges get here, I guess I need to start trimming my dies and bumping the die a smidge at a time until I fall into this range.

 

[308sako]

Re: .308 stumper

Sounds like you found the light... good man.

 

[former naval person]

Re: .308 stumper

One problem you have found is that the headspace guages you buy and the chambers you own, don't necessarily use the same datum line unless they are made by the same manufacturer. It can lead you down the path of frustration. Good shooting. FNP

 

[shooter308]

Re: .308 stumper

WHen you said Savage I knew i couldnt Help. SOrry

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One problem you have found is that the headspace guages you buy and the chambers you own, don't necessarily use the same datum line unless they are made by the same manufacturer. It can lead you down the path of frustration. Good shooting. FNP </div></div>
That was a big part of my problem I think. A headspace gauge that you just drop the round in wasn't giving me enough data to figure out the issue. According to that gauge, the rounds were fine. Thanks again for the help.

 

[badbot]

Re: .308 stumper

I have had to grind the bottom of 1 sizing die to allow it to work in my dillon progressive. i used the side of a bench grinder and took off about .005 from the mouth of the die, this allows the sholder to be adjusted to bump without binding the shell holder. I marked this die so it would not be used in any other press.

 

[308sako]

Re: .308 stumper

Deleted in protest!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: .308 stumper

Wow. Too bad I never saw this until now.

Did you ever try to chamber just the resized case? Is this hard chambering only happening with reloaded ammo, that has the bullet seated?

My experience with Savage chambers and handloading is not that the chamber is short, but that the neck may be. This causes the bullet to jam while the case may be fine all by itself.

When I read that the case is short according to the case guage, the light went on.

If the problem is the OAL and not the case, you may be setting yourself up for big problems, so stop and sort this question out, whether it's the chamber or the throat that's short.

Take a fired case (case only) that has never been though the die and see if it rechambers. If it will, back off the F/L die so it only partially resizes down about 1/2 of the length of the case neck. If it will still chamber, seat a bullet to the manufacturer's OAL spec. If it won't chamber with the bullet seated, but will without the bullet, the problem is the seating length, and not the case resizing length. Advance the seater to find the length where the hard chambering stops. This is the proper maximum OAL for your chamber.

The problem comes if you're resizing the case too short. Firing expansion and excessive resizing will overwork the brass in the lower case wall area, and case head separations will almost definitely result. It ruins the brass, and it causes a potential case head separation/pressure excursion safety issue.

If this is the case, leave the die backed off until a resized case won't chamber, then advance the die until it will. When you hit the happy medium where a resized case will cause a slight but noticeable bolt drag on closure, you die is set correctly.

I seriously doubt that grinding the die will have ruined it.

Greg

 

[r0ttie1]

Re: .308 stumper

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow. Too bad I never saw this until now.

Did you ever try to chamber just the resized case? Is this hard chambering only happening with reloaded ammo, that has the bullet seated?

My experience with Savage chambers and handloading is not that the chamber is short, but that the neck may be. This causes the bullet to jam while the case may be fine all by itself.

When I read that the case is short according to the case guage, the light went on.

If the problem is the OAL and not the case, you may be setting yourself up for big problems, so stop and sort this question out, whether it's the chamber or the throat that's short.

Take a fired case (case only) that has never been though the die and see if it rechambers. If it will, back off the F/L die so it only partially resizes down about 1/2 of the length of the case neck. If it will still chamber, seat a bullet to the manufacturer's OAL spec. If it won't chamber with the bullet seated, but will without the bullet, the problem is the seating length, and not the case resizing length. Advance the seater to find the length where the hard chambering stops. This is the proper maximum OAL for your chamber.

The problem comes if you're resizing the case too short. Firing expansion and excessive resizing will overwork the brass in the lower case wall area, and case head separations will almost definitely result. It ruins the brass, and it causes a potential case head separation/pressure excursion safety issue.

If this is the case, leave the die backed off until a resized case won't chamber, then advance the die until it will. When you hit the happy medium where a resized case will cause a slight but noticeable bolt drag on closure, you die is set correctly.

I seriously doubt that grinding the die will have ruined it.

Greg </div></div>
I have reduced the OAL. I was noticing marks on the bullet ogive after chambering a reloaded round. The fired round will chamber but I have to put pressure on the bolt to close and to open it. I think I might have gotten enough ideas to work on resolving the problem. I think it was a variety of issues all coming together to cause me this grief. Headspacing, having to trim once fired brass and OAL. I appreciate all the help I got on this forum.

 

[jbell]

Re: .308 stumper

Have you tried firing some factory ammo and then rechambering the firred cases and if the all chamber good take those firred cases and size some the way you have been doing it and if thy chamber hard its in your die, as you proably have already figured out. I think you may be oversizeing the cases however, which can expand the case just oversize at the rear of the body just befor the extractor grove. Try a diffrent die, I would recomend a neck size only die. I have a friend who had this same prob. For some reason his fl die was oversizeing the case (makeing the measured headspace on the brass from the head to the datum line too short) and the brass has to go some where (it was belling out the body). This is just my thoughts, good luck and please let us know what resolves the issue.