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338 lapua woes.

biscuit75camaro

biscuit75camaro

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 16, 2011
408
10
Texas
I recently aquired a remington 700 in 338 lapua magnum aics 2.0 chassis and a vortex 6-24x50mm ffp optic. Also dies and 4 or 5 different kinds of powder. Range sessions at 200 yds start with the first shot in the bulls eye then shots seem to walk around in a 5 to 7in circle wih 5 shots. Different powders dont seem to make much difference. i hope someone can give me some insight on whats happening. its not jst me ive even had other ppl shoot it and the same thing happens. My 308 will take a golfball at 200 yds with every shot so i dnt think its my shooting
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

The .308 doesn't recoil like the .338 does...just food for thought, your not really getting a dose of it until after your first shot which you state is always good...do you think that could be the problem?
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

I have the same issue with my .284. It has a hand lapped hart barrel but I found that after just a few shots it copper fouls real bad and groups open to 3" @ 100 yards. My barrel only has a total of 50 rounds through it and I cleaned it at 15 round intervals. Hart does not have any special break in procedure. Hope it works its way out soon. A competition rifle that is only good for a few shots is not too good at all.
Maybe you have a similar problem.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Ive thought of that so i got my buddy who weighs lyk 250 or so to shoot it and even several other ppl have printed the same kind of groups. one of those lead sled things didnt help either
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Did you check out all the usual suspects? ie.. action screws, ring/base screws. If you did and all turned out ok then I would mount a different scope and see what happens. Hope this helps.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

I will go thru them again and change scopes too and see what happens. Has anyone heard of the vortex scopes not being able to handle that much recoil? What i dnt understand is the first shot is dead nuts zero everytime no matter who shoots it, but idk thats y i have had to ask about it. I thought it was just me for a long time im sure that much recoil pushes my 165lb frame pretty hard.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

i know their different fire arms but i have a new optima muzzle loader that does the same thing, you couldnt hit the bullseye a second time to save your but, first shot will bulls eye second will be around 1.5" away, the gun fowling is what i determined was my problem, when your shooting your lapua, are you useing a powder that completely burns up or do you seem to have alot of fowling after the first shot?if you have alot of fowling you might try less powder and see what that does...thats what i had to do
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Well ill try cleaning after my shots to see if that helps and check my powder fouling. It has the stock remington brake looks like jst a few holes drilled into the muzzle its removable i want a different one but havnt got around to changing it
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

A loose base will screw with your shooting mojo just like that.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Believe me, a little powder fouling isn't the problem. This isn't a black powder rifle. You also don't want to be reducing your charge below what's recommended in the reloading manuals. With a case as large as the 338 Lapua, an under charge can result in a hang fire or a detonation. That can be very dangerous. What you may have is heavy copper fouling. Use a good copper solvent such as Sweets 7.62 or one of the foaming bore cleaners. Have you tried any factory ammo out of it? Changing scopes with a known good scope is a good idea as well. You may have a loose lense in there that's shifting around.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: biscuit_75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What i dnt understand is the first shot is dead nuts zero everytime no matter who shoots it...</div></div>

A good reason could be that the scope is falling out of parallax.

You get on the rifle and adjust the parallax... aim and fire, POA=POI is the result.

You cycle the bolt, but now your eye is not in the same position as it was for the first shot and parallax is present in the scope. You place the crosshair on the target and fire but because the scope has parallax present the crosshair is not "on target" but "super-imposed" on target, and the shot goes wide. Every shot from that point on will be chasing the zero.

I would double check the parallax after each shot by moving your head up and down on the stock (like a nod) while watching for reticle movement relative to the target. Adjust the "focus" until the movement is not present, then fire. Do that for every shot and see if it tightens up.

If the parallax is adjusted out every shot and it's still inconsistent then call Vortex or swap the scope with a known good one.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Ok well ima go to the range sat. And try to find out whats wrong now that i have a better idea all that it could be thanks for the info everbody ill post results soon
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Good call on the parallax. Just to clarify, when checking for parallax, have the gun sitting in a rest and make no contact with the gun as you move your eye around behind the scope. And remember, you're adjusting the left side parallax knob, not the fast focus ring. Once you have adjusted the parallax, it should remain set for that range. I would double check after each shot as pupdawg suggested. If it's not holding, then something's loose inside that scope. When you engage a target that's either closer or further away, you'll have to re-adjust your parallax.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

If everything is tightened up properly and there is no problem with your scope (try it on your .308?) then try some factory ammo.

It is not be the realms of possibility that your rifle just really hates the loads you are feeding it - what bullet / powder combinations have you tried?
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Its in an accuracy international chassis. I tried hornadys factory 250 grain match bullets. My loads are hornady brass, cci magnum primers, sierra 250gr, 300gr matchkings, reloader 19, reloader 25, h1000, and retumbo. All these i have tried with different powder charges. One thing i dont like is the oal bullet seating depth im limited to with the AI mags. I jst got some lapua 250gr and 300gr scenars to see if it makes any difference
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

My bet is on the scope, I had a scope on my Rem 308 in a AICS and my rifle started to do the same thing. Went from a 1/4 inch group to all over the place. I checked all screws and torque settings and everything was still set. The scope became suspect when I recognized that the parallex ring was not black but white in color. Sent it back to the factory and a lens had shifted. Scope had a lifetime warranty so they sent me a new one. Once you torque in your screws on your AICS that action is like in a vice.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

The key point that I read here is that the first shot is always on and the followers are always off. I am assuming when you say first shot you mean a completely new range session and that means a completely cold barrel. Ask yourself what is the probability that a fouled barrel or bad scope would always put the first shot on.

Past experience: I had a rifle that had fouling and ammo issues. It could only shoot five rounds before needing to be cleaned and the ammo needed to be sorted by length. Once the barrel had its five shots in, a new range session did not put the first shot on.

I am guessing it is temperature related and would test by allowing the rifle to cool between shots. Shoot once and wait 15 minutes before the next shot. If that shot is off then wait 30 minutes for the next shot. Repeat until you are convinced it is or not related to temperature.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spoon77</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ask yourself what is the probability that a fouled barrel or bad scope would always put the first shot on.</div></div>

Probably never happen with a heavily fouled barrel. A heavily fouled barrel will throw shots from first to last, usually.

BUT, a bad scope... not loose in the rings/mount but a loose focus (parallax) knob, or the housing (erector?) inside the scope moving under recoil will be able to put the first shot POA as long as the parallax is able to be adjusted out for that shot. After recoil the lens/housing moves and there is now parallax present. Shooter cycles the bolt and fires to what he thinks is the same POA, but it isn't. Just try it with any scope... adjust your parallax for the first shot and fire. Then turn the parallax knob a quarter turn in any direction and fire your second. You'll see what I'm talking about.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spoon77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Past experience: I had a rifle that had fouling and ammo issues. It could only shoot five rounds before needing to be cleaned and the ammo needed to be sorted by length. Once the barrel had its five shots in, a new range session did not put the first shot on.</div></div>

I doubt his barrel is fouling after a single shot. Like I said a fouled barrel will show from first to last shot until it is cleaned or the fouling removed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: spoon77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am guessing it is temperature related and would test by allowing the rifle to cool between shots. </div></div>

None of the powders the OP is using aside from maybe the H1000 is temp sensitive to the point of a 3MOA difference. Even at that, with the H1000 if you left the rounds in the noon sun baking then fired them you'll see maybe an MOA difference or none which is no where near the 3.5 MOA shots the OP is experiencing.

I've never heard of a 338LM bolt gun shooting outside of MOA at distances inside of 300yards. That bullet is heavy and moving pretty quick (300 gr bullet @ 2700 fps out of a 27" barrel) and the cartridge is pretty forgiving with regards to accuracy.

I still think it could be a parallax thing and am eager to hear the OP come back with results. Check/Adjust out your parallax after every shot, use the same load, same distance, tell your buddy to check the parallax after every shot also. If the group tightens up then call Vortex, if not then we move on to the next issue. Maybe the rifle is just a 3 MOA rifle? Maybe it needs a new barrel?
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

I have exactly the same problem, Remington 700 Police in an XLR chassis, Vortex Razor. I did use the scope on my .308 with excellent results. Different loads, powders etc. didn't make any difference. I'm not able to check further into my problems right now but will watch to see how Bisket 75 makes out.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

I would check my bases and rings first, make sure the action screws are properly torqued.

If the problem continued, get the action trued up and re-barrel it.

Went through a similar problem with a factory 700 several years ago, and after trying everything else first (including re-scoping and bedding, etc.) finally sent the barreled action off (to D.Holland) for truing & rebarreling. When I got it back, I had to open the barrel channel a little more on one side of the stock before bedding. It had obviously been assembled slightly crooked at the factory. It happens, so suggest you consider what Thunderbolt said.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pupdawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never heard of a 338LM bolt gun shooting outside of MOA at distances inside of 300yards. That bullet is heavy and moving pretty quick (300 gr bullet @ 2700 fps out of a 27" barrel) and the cartridge is pretty forgiving with regards to accuracy.</div></div>

There's been several posters complaining about the accuracy of these "economy" 338 Lapua's such as the Savage and the Remington rifles. These guns have been hit or miss with some people getting very good accuracy, some OK, and some abysmal regardless of who's shooting the gun or what load was worked up for it.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

ok guys range report. my best group was at 100 yds right after sighting the different scope in it was 1.00 with 5 shots. after that it wouldnt group under 3" at 100 yds. 200 yds was a 5 to 6" group after letting the rifle cool down maybe it does need a new barrel. who makes a good heavy profile spiral futed barrel? i went thru all the mount screws made sure they werent bottoming out and swapped scopes. idk what the deal is. i know some ppl said to clean it after every shot sorry but if i did that the rifle would be useless to me i dont want a range queen that i have to babysit all the time. yall shoulda seen the 20oz coke bottle i shot with my 357 magnum revolver at 100yds lol
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

There is a 21 page thread on this board regarding these rifles. In the last couple of pages a poster, that was unable to get any level of accccuracy, stated that his smith found the end of the barrel looked like it would after 15K rounds. He removed the last 1/2", rethreaded for a brake and the rifle shot great. Check the thread out.

Anecdotally, a guy I shoot with bought a 700 in .204 that absolutely wouldn't perform. After trying numerous handloads he got a new stock, trigger and scope. It still wouldn't shoot. He finally resurfaced the crown and after about 15 rounds it started shooting lights out.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

I have the BA 110 and had a similar problem when I first got it.
I have found that Basically they are not that accurate under 300m. That and the barrel needs to have the copper removed / dissolved every ten rounds or so.
My best to date is an ES of 154mm at 1200m and it's pretty much the same each time, so it is quite consistent!
I would suggest a bigger Muzzle break and a quick pull through with sweets after 5 rounds. Hope you fix it bud.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

My buddy got A sako TRG 338 and could not get it to group under 2.5 inches at 100 yards. After a few minutes of instruction on getting squared up behind the rifle he is now shooting moa to sub moa all day long. The 338 will really magnify any bad shooting habits you have. I would have an experienced shooter watch you while you are shooting ( the rifle should come straight back and not to the side, the energy should be transferred through your whole body and out your feet), I would also have someone load your rifle before you are going to shoot and occasionally not put a round in to check if you are anticipating recoil. If you are using good form, when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber the crosshair should not move at all! If it twitches at all your form needs work. If you are confident it is not you , the scope, the mounts, the ammo, there is only one thing left and that is the rifle. Send it to a good smith and have him check it out. I wish we were closer, I would love to give you a second opinion. My 338 is a 1/4 moa gun at 100 yards, I find it hard to believe that they settle down the further out you shoot (I am not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just skeptical.)

Good luck, and let us know what you find out!
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pupdawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

BUT, a bad scope... not loose in the rings/mount but a loose focus (parallax) knob, or the housing (erector?) inside the scope moving under recoil will be able to put the first shot POA as long as the parallax is able to be adjusted out for that shot. After recoil the lens/housing moves and there is now parallax present. Shooter cycles the bolt and fires to what he thinks is the same POA, but it isn't. Just try it with any scope... adjust your parallax for the first shot and fire. Then turn the parallax knob a quarter turn in any direction and fire your second. You'll see what I'm talking about.

None of the powders the OP is using aside from maybe the H1000 is temp sensitive to the point of a 3MOA difference. Even at that, with the H1000 if you left the rounds in the noon sun baking then fired them you'll see maybe an MOA difference or none which is no where near the 3.5 MOA shots the OP is experiencing.
</div></div>

I never played with the (parallax) between shots or intentionally setting it fuzzy. I will next time to see what it does.

Temperature I was referring to is stress temperature from being shot not the Sun.

With any luck his problem is the scope as that is the easiest to verify.

Listening to all his issues makes me appreciate my TRG. I never shot more then 20 rounds in a session but from cold shot to last they all group, never a flier. With the price of ammo for this beast I would hate to be throwing lead just to troubleshoot. Defeats the goal of a cheaper rifle.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

yeah now that im having these problems im wishin i would have jst ordered a ai 338 trg or something custom instead of tryin to be a cheap ass. i have read that thread its very informative. maybe tomarrow ill take the brake off and look at my crown if its messed up ill see about chucking it up and re crowning it, and yeah i know i dnt anticipate with my 308 but i do wish i could have a good coach or something im thinking about giong to the rifles only course in texas one day im sure i would come out a better marksman
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Biscuit- I wouldnt worry much about it. As you shoot more youll eventually be able to isolate and trouble shoot mechanical or fundamental flaws with a better approach.

All your rifle might need is a new barrel. The 338LM is one of the last cartridges to get if barrel life is your concern.

Spoon- I also have a TRG42 and I agree that it never throws a shot unless I do. Cold bore or with the barrel hot to the touch it always sends it where the sights are. Try the parallax thing just for shits n giggles. Depending on the brand of scope you can throw a shot as much as a couple inches or more with the parallax a quarter turn off at 100 yds. Imagine how that translates to 1000 and you can see how that can get ugly.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

My parallax didnt ever move. how much is a mid to upper level heavier countoured mayb fluted bbl gna cost me? if thats what my problem is and would i need to go ahead with trueing the action up while im at it? Anything else that would kick up my 338 mags accuracy?
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Well at least you know it aint the scope.
smile.gif


A good barrel would probably run between $3-400 for a rifled blank. Bartlein, Kreiger, etc.

Then you can find out who does spiral fluting (pretty sure Bartlein can?) then add in that cost plus the chambering/contouring costs.

I'd be expecting the final price to be up to around the $800-1000 price range for a 27" finished length. Chambered/ contoured/ spiral fluted/ thread and crown muzzle. Just a guess. Best to call them for a price quote and lead time.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Ok guys range report i know its been a lil whie. i chucked the rifle up in my lathe after taking off the muzzlebrake and re crowned it. 100 yd group was 1.5". At 500 yds me and another person put down 1.625" groups. He was shooting 250gr scenars on top of 89.1 gr of h1000. I shot 300gr scenars on top of 94.2gr of h1000. Why does it group the same at both 100 and 500? Ive heard they dont stabilize close range any insight into whats goin on?
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

bullet probably takes a bit to stabalize. Fairly common in magnums. Even seen it with a 17 remington once. Smaller groups at 300 than at 100. Very nice 500 groups BTW.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Thanks man. I thought it was a lil unbelievable at first now im itching to take it farther
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

If you're getting 1.625" groups at 500 yards, I'd be very happy with that. If you're getting 1.5" at 100 yards, them maybe they aren't stabilizing yet. Some people are reporting tight groups at 100, and some are not. Every barrel is a law unto itself.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

So are you implying the recrown did help, or you don't know since 100 yards were the same and you never tried 500 before
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: biscuit_75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently aquired a remington 700 in 338 lapua magnum aics 2.0 chassis and a vortex 6-24x50mm ffp optic. Also dies and 4 or 5 different kinds of powder. Range sessions at 200 yds start with the first shot in the bulls eye then shots seem to walk around in a 5 to 7in circle wih 5 shots. Different powders dont seem to make much difference. i hope someone can give me some insight on whats happening. its not jst me ive even had other ppl shoot it and the same thing happens. My 308 will take a golfball at 200 yds with every shot so i dnt think its my shooting </div></div>
I have same issue with my savage in hs precision stock 338lm and HSM ammo (orange box) first shot bulls eye and next shots were all over the place , 5-7 iches away from POA ... I shoot 300gr at 200 yards. Optics is nightforce with steel rings. Bolts and nuts on rings and action torqued down tight. I shot my APA 308 before, groups were .5 inch for 5 shots. So it's not me... I'm frustrated now
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

I never did get to try 500 before re crowning but my 100 yd groups were about 3" for 5 shots before. So yes i believe it helped lol
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Man. Ive resolved this gun shoots like crap at 100 and 200 yds. Now im getting 5" groups at 200 yds. Ive heard the 338 lapua needs 300 yds to stabilize right can anybody shed some light on this subject?? This thing shoots so good at 500 but sadly i dont get to shoot that much at longer ranges
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Well honestly, I don't see much of a point in shooting a 338 LM at under 500yds, hell even under 1000yds. I took mine to the local 100yd range this morning to do a quick little latter test and do a couple 3 shot groups just to see what it's capable of at 100. I put 3 rounds in about a .75 MOA group and I found that pretty surprising since I was figuring it wouldn't hold under 1 MOA at 100 yds. I'll be shooting it at 1000yds tomorrow and thats what will matter to me. If I shot much under 1000, I wouldn't bother owning a 338 bc a 6.5mm or smaller 7mm will do anything under 1000 will ease. Don't worry about your 100 if it shoots so good at 300+ IMO
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Your rifle should not shoot poorly at any range within its envelope. Here is what my Remington 700 338LM is capable of (300 yards). The group is roughly 0.6 MOA, and I've been able to hold 0.6-0.8 MOA from 100 to 300 yards.

3381-1.jpg


The rifle has been re-crowned by Mark Gordon at SAC, he also installed the Badger FTE brake.
3387.jpg


On the subject of 338LM needing distance to stabilize, if your gun is shooting 5" groups at 200 yards, how could it then shoot well at 500 yards? Assuming your groups don't get any bigger from 200 yards to 500 (which isn't logical) and you end up getting a 5" 500 yard group, thats still just 1 MOA. A good group to be sure but not spectacular. Bullets don't "know" what your intended trajectory is, and don't have an ability to shrink your group size by somehow returning to it.
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

Well yeah ive been wanting to build a 6.5x47 lapua lately i think i read something about some 338s needing distance to shoot better but i agree fully its stupid for it to group 5" at 200 and 1 5/8 at 500 yds. And yes i dream of the day i get to take it to shoot 1000 yds
 
Re: 338 lapua woes.

I do not know about them needing more distance to stabilize. My AR-30 in 338LM shoots very well at 100 and 200yds. I would say it easily shoots .25MOA. at that distance. We hardly ever shoot it under 800yds. My 300WM also shoots very small groups at shot range.
 
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