Wilburforce's table above is misleading - no-one runs a 1.5" sight above bore height optic or sights. Try 2.5".
- Thread starter deersniper
- Start date
I tend to stay out of this as its a Ford vs Chevy argument as well as 'my math is better than your math'.
I use a 50y. Why? I always have, I know what the offsets look/feel like on an Aimpoint dot and EoTech ring and have never needed to change it. The video for the 36y and the Marine BZ make sense so I'm not saying don't use it, but when you toss out the usage of either on a benchrest at a square range and factor in the practical reality of almost all of your shots will be made relatively fast usually from a standing/kneeling/improvised position, you'll have en elevated heart rate, be wearing some sort of equipment, your quick reactive presentation won't always be 1000% perfect, you won't know if the guy is at 111 or 134 yards, and the fact that M855/M193 has something like a 3MOA acceptable spread at 100y - the argument of what fraction of an inch at 50, 100, 200+ is better becomes irrelevant.
For an EOTech we used the bottom ring to aim at distances less than 50. Middle dot for 50-100ish and then started going back towards the bottom of the ring the further out we thought the target was. Aimpoint was aim at the face at less than 50, upper COM 50-100ish, then back towards the face past that.
Honestly it doesn't matter if you zero your carbine in at 11 yards or 75.48 yards. If you know where the offsets are in relation to your exterior ballistics of the bullet you're shooting, who cares?
As for the two target examples given:
- What would you do if the target was popping his head/upper torso out sideways from difilade at 200y?
I'd suppress him/have him suppressed in that position. Depending on the terrain and where else we were taking contact from, if he was suppressed and we/part of our element could flank him while suppressed. If I was suppressing his position and knew he was at exactly 200y, I'd hold my 200 offset and take a hair off of it because he's coming out at an angle.
- What would you do with a hostage at 200y?
Do we really care about the hostage? Thats the first question.
Otherwise, have my guy with the Mk12 or M110 shoot him in the face.
Did the experiment (well only half of it) using a 50-yard zero. Rifle was my 14.5 DD with CompM2. I didn’t use the magnifier. All shots were made prone using a bipod and rear bag. Ammo was IMI XM193 55g fmj. Temp was 45 degrees, wind was right to left by 2-4mph.
I confirmed zero then performed a dot drill at 50 yards. Afterwards I moved the target to 100, 200 and 300 yards shooting five rounds at each distance at the partially hidden silhouette (brown target)
I circled and labeled the rounds shot at each distance interval before moving to the next (one shot at 300 went high-left over the whole assembly.
Observations:
Basically, my fundamentals need work. Beyond that I can see the merit of a 50 yard zero if we assume typical Max engagement range is ~225 or so. POI was only slightly above POA (top shoot and see) At 300 yards, I held at the “head” of the brown silhouette; rounds went all over the place.
At 100 yards, my POA was the lower shoot and see and POI was the upper shoot and see; dispersion was within expectations. At 200, I need to bring it down a bit (maybe hold so the top of the dot is “touching” the target as it it was a chevron or German post reticle.
I’ll keep the zero at 50 for now while I work on fundamentals and hold overs then re-do using a 36 yard zero to see what differences are apparent. Will also shoot from different, more typical positions as opposed to prone using a bipod once I’m a bit more consistent.
Note: where it says “300yd POI”, I meant to write “300yd POA”
Feel free to ask questions.
I confirmed zero then performed a dot drill at 50 yards. Afterwards I moved the target to 100, 200 and 300 yards shooting five rounds at each distance at the partially hidden silhouette (brown target)
I circled and labeled the rounds shot at each distance interval before moving to the next (one shot at 300 went high-left over the whole assembly.
Observations:
Basically, my fundamentals need work. Beyond that I can see the merit of a 50 yard zero if we assume typical Max engagement range is ~225 or so. POI was only slightly above POA (top shoot and see) At 300 yards, I held at the “head” of the brown silhouette; rounds went all over the place.
At 100 yards, my POA was the lower shoot and see and POI was the upper shoot and see; dispersion was within expectations. At 200, I need to bring it down a bit (maybe hold so the top of the dot is “touching” the target as it it was a chevron or German post reticle.
I’ll keep the zero at 50 for now while I work on fundamentals and hold overs then re-do using a 36 yard zero to see what differences are apparent. Will also shoot from different, more typical positions as opposed to prone using a bipod once I’m a bit more consistent.
Note: where it says “300yd POI”, I meant to write “300yd POA”
Feel free to ask questions.
Yep, I want to grab a Mk6 1-6 with the 556 cmr-w for that rifle. Maybe in Jan or Feb.
Trigger is a CMC single stage
Agree. I prefer to use a KD range to zero. And prefer to have a chance to confirm on paper to at least 300. But in the end It I don’t care it it’s 25/36/50/100/200/250/300 as long as i
Who’s the German? Honest question, not trying to be a Richard.
What’s the answer?
I'd guess the 50 because noone remembers the offset the first time.
What if you don't even bother shooting at the 300M target and use the rounds for other pop-ups?
That’s why I said. A lot NSF’s don’t shoot the 300.What if you don't even bother shooting at the 300M target and use the rounds for other pop-ups?
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I am holding in my hand a few of the original WWII 1000in/27yd targets used for establishing a battle sight setting (300yd zero) with the M-1 Garand.
While this might appear a disparity with the 36yd zero being discussed here, the principles and concepts are identical, with the primary difference being sight axis height above the bore. Given a higher sight axis, the bullet would cross the line of sight at a greater distance; in this case 36 yards.
Folks can discuss this for a long time, but the basic process remains pretty much exactly the same.
Greg
While this might appear a disparity with the 36yd zero being discussed here, the principles and concepts are identical, with the primary difference being sight axis height above the bore. Given a higher sight axis, the bullet would cross the line of sight at a greater distance; in this case 36 yards.
Folks can discuss this for a long time, but the basic process remains pretty much exactly the same.
Greg
This is one of the reasons why so many people love the M-1 Garand and M-14 sighting systems for iron sight shooters.
The sight height above the bore for a Garand IIRC is between 1.25-1.5”. With a 36yd zero, the 152gr M2 .30 caliber rifle projectile fired at 2805fps avg mv never goes above .7”, and only has 2.7” of drop at 200yds.
36yd zero would be great on a Garand with that load.
0 2805fps -1.3
50 2690fps .3” high
100 2579fps .7” high
150 2470fps -.3"
200 2364fps -2.7"
250 2260fps -6.6"
You can start cranking on the Garand’s elevation wheel on the left side of the rear sight assembly if you want more precise impacts at distance, and this was taught in the Garand rifle marksmanship program in both the Army and Marines. They shot a lot of half-sils for the close targets back then too. With a 36yd zero on the Garand, you would have no problem making POA=POI hits on those targets, provided you applied the fundamentals.
36yd zero on AR-15/M-16 family goes quite higher than that, as we’ve covered, and isn’t ideal for its sight plane.
The sight height above the bore for a Garand IIRC is between 1.25-1.5”. With a 36yd zero, the 152gr M2 .30 caliber rifle projectile fired at 2805fps avg mv never goes above .7”, and only has 2.7” of drop at 200yds.
36yd zero would be great on a Garand with that load.
0 2805fps -1.3
50 2690fps .3” high
100 2579fps .7” high
150 2470fps -.3"
200 2364fps -2.7"
250 2260fps -6.6"
You can start cranking on the Garand’s elevation wheel on the left side of the rear sight assembly if you want more precise impacts at distance, and this was taught in the Garand rifle marksmanship program in both the Army and Marines. They shot a lot of half-sils for the close targets back then too. With a 36yd zero on the Garand, you would have no problem making POA=POI hits on those targets, provided you applied the fundamentals.
36yd zero on AR-15/M-16 family goes quite higher than that, as we’ve covered, and isn’t ideal for its sight plane.
Not bad. Not enough to swap my red dot rifles from their 50/200, however.
Thanks! Will repeat the COF but with a 36 yards zero, same rifle and set up in a few weeks or so. Will see what happens...
