I was at the gun store yesterday looking to get a new glock, and i have narrowed it down to either a G19 or G23. I am leaning towards the .40 so can anyone give me a good reason to get the 9mm?
Suppressors 40 S&W vs 9mm
- Thread starter redroan45
- Start date
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Ammo is lower priced, so you can train more.
Ammo is lower priced, so you can train more.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Cheaper ammo = shoot more for less
Less recoil = shoot more for those who may be recoil shy or otherwise need more experience with a centerfire pistol before moving up in caliber
Higher capacity = just because
With modern ammo choices, there is little that a 9mm can't do within the realm of a defensive pistol cartridge.
Cheaper ammo = shoot more for less
Less recoil = shoot more for those who may be recoil shy or otherwise need more experience with a centerfire pistol before moving up in caliber
Higher capacity = just because
With modern ammo choices, there is little that a 9mm can't do within the realm of a defensive pistol cartridge.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Shot placement > caliber. That said, 40 is a great caliber for home defense, ccw, etc because you still get more power while maintaining a high mag capacity. I don't own a 9mm, just 40s and 45s simply because I got enough of that caliber in the military. I may change my tune one of these days, but on my preferences alone, I'd get the 23.
Still, you should shoot both to see how they feel to you.
Shot placement > caliber. That said, 40 is a great caliber for home defense, ccw, etc because you still get more power while maintaining a high mag capacity. I don't own a 9mm, just 40s and 45s simply because I got enough of that caliber in the military. I may change my tune one of these days, but on my preferences alone, I'd get the 23.
Still, you should shoot both to see how they feel to you.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Yeah, cheaper to shoot and higher capacity. Who ever practices the most wins, so I prefer the caliber that allows you to practice! Furthermore, I have done a lot of research on the subject, and it seems that many feel the "need" for more "stopping power" but that most of these differences between the .45's, .40's, and 9mm's is psychological. From the research I have done, it is much more about shot placement than the size of the hole. When you are using a defensive handgun, the difference between someone "bleeding out" over the course of 3 hours vs 2 1/2 won't make a difference because the fight is long since over. The key is to take them out fast, which again, is much more about shot placement than the size of the hole- which comes back to practice, and the cheaper round will give you the ability to practice more. Just my opinion!
Yeah, cheaper to shoot and higher capacity. Who ever practices the most wins, so I prefer the caliber that allows you to practice! Furthermore, I have done a lot of research on the subject, and it seems that many feel the "need" for more "stopping power" but that most of these differences between the .45's, .40's, and 9mm's is psychological. From the research I have done, it is much more about shot placement than the size of the hole. When you are using a defensive handgun, the difference between someone "bleeding out" over the course of 3 hours vs 2 1/2 won't make a difference because the fight is long since over. The key is to take them out fast, which again, is much more about shot placement than the size of the hole- which comes back to practice, and the cheaper round will give you the ability to practice more. Just my opinion!
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CalmlyDeMented</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ammo is lower priced, so you can train more. </div></div>
+1000 on that.
There's people who complain that the nine doesn't have the stopping power. But with modern hollow points, there's really not much difference in the real world. If you're worried about taking down an individual hopped up on pcp or meth, the .45 is a nice tool to put them on their back, to buy some time. But in that scenario, the difference between a nine and a 40 is minimal. Your best bet it to put the round in the T, and that takes practice. Practice Practice Practice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CalmlyDeMented</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ammo is lower priced, so you can train more. </div></div>
+1000 on that.
There's people who complain that the nine doesn't have the stopping power. But with modern hollow points, there's really not much difference in the real world. If you're worried about taking down an individual hopped up on pcp or meth, the .45 is a nice tool to put them on their back, to buy some time. But in that scenario, the difference between a nine and a 40 is minimal. Your best bet it to put the round in the T, and that takes practice. Practice Practice Practice
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Oh, not to hijack your thread, but, I had a G19, but now have a P228. I like the toys on my p228, but I do 't feel better armed with the sig.
Oh, not to hijack your thread, but, I had a G19, but now have a P228. I like the toys on my p228, but I do 't feel better armed with the sig.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Cheaper ammo, less recoil, more capacity, most popular cartridge in the world, lower pressure.
The reasons for .40 are basically non-existent. I buy any handgun in 9mm unless competition demands another caliber or it is not available or practical in that caliber.
1911s in .45, everything else in 9mm.
Cheaper ammo, less recoil, more capacity, most popular cartridge in the world, lower pressure.
The reasons for .40 are basically non-existent. I buy any handgun in 9mm unless competition demands another caliber or it is not available or practical in that caliber.
1911s in .45, everything else in 9mm.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
If ammo cost is a factor then 9mm is cheaper. The same tech put into 9mm bullets is the same throughout the scale. While modern bullet design now has brought the 9mm up to the same lethality levels the others, I would go with the 23. The saing goes, "Your 9mm may expand, but my .45 will never shrink."
If ammo cost is a factor then 9mm is cheaper. The same tech put into 9mm bullets is the same throughout the scale. While modern bullet design now has brought the 9mm up to the same lethality levels the others, I would go with the 23. The saing goes, "Your 9mm may expand, but my .45 will never shrink."
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
the .40 is a higher pressure round....and it got more snap to it....in some pistols its a handfull to control, competitors will seek the lighter 165grn projo to abate recoil and learn double taps that print tight groups....
the nine is ubiquitous and by far cheaper to run...
one can learn a lot from driving a nine.
one has to have a go to nine
the .40 is a higher pressure round....and it got more snap to it....in some pistols its a handfull to control, competitors will seek the lighter 165grn projo to abate recoil and learn double taps that print tight groups....
the nine is ubiquitous and by far cheaper to run...
one can learn a lot from driving a nine.
one has to have a go to nine
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Get the G23 and a 9x19mm conversion barrel
Get the G23 and a 9x19mm conversion barrel
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: B. Melick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get the G23 and a 9x19mm conversion barrel</div></div>
verily so............
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: B. Melick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get the G23 and a 9x19mm conversion barrel</div></div>
verily so............
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Just a thought for the tread, If someone reloads ands is torn between 9mm and 40 s&W. Just remember that 40 is very common and you find just as much 40 brass as 9mm laying around at the range. Or you can buy mixed brass at some indoor ranges and you will recieve just as much 9mm as 40 cal and 45 acp. Most of the time. Some indoor ranges will seperate the brass but it cost more that way.
Just a thought for the tread, If someone reloads ands is torn between 9mm and 40 s&W. Just remember that 40 is very common and you find just as much 40 brass as 9mm laying around at the range. Or you can buy mixed brass at some indoor ranges and you will recieve just as much 9mm as 40 cal and 45 acp. Most of the time. Some indoor ranges will seperate the brass but it cost more that way.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
9mm over 40 if the 9mm does not do what you want it to do then dont half ass it; Buy a .45ACP
9mm over 40 if the 9mm does not do what you want it to do then dont half ass it; Buy a .45ACP
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: swarrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9mm over 40 if the 9mm does not do what you want it to do then dont half ass it; Buy a .45ACP </div></div>
BINGO!!!!! I go 9mm or 45ACP on everything. To me there is 0 reason to subject yourself to such snappy recoil in an already stressful defensive situation when a 45ACP is softer shooting. It may have more recoil but it dose it over a longer slower period of time actually giving you a chance to control it. As far as 9mm goes it's cheaper, almost as good in a defensive load, easier to train with, very accurate, available everywhere, small and lightweight allowing you to carry more in a smaller gun, etc. etc. etc.... Basically the perfect "my first semi auto handgun round".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: swarrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9mm over 40 if the 9mm does not do what you want it to do then dont half ass it; Buy a .45ACP </div></div>
BINGO!!!!! I go 9mm or 45ACP on everything. To me there is 0 reason to subject yourself to such snappy recoil in an already stressful defensive situation when a 45ACP is softer shooting. It may have more recoil but it dose it over a longer slower period of time actually giving you a chance to control it. As far as 9mm goes it's cheaper, almost as good in a defensive load, easier to train with, very accurate, available everywhere, small and lightweight allowing you to carry more in a smaller gun, etc. etc. etc.... Basically the perfect "my first semi auto handgun round".
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
take a look at your crime in your area to see if you need a couple more rounds in the mag
take a look at your crime in your area to see if you need a couple more rounds in the mag
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
If you reload get a 40, I shoot downloaded 180's, recoil is light, and there is still more knock down power than a 9, on the other hand a Glock 30 is about the same size as a G19/23, but in 45acp, 230 grain hydrashoks or Ranger SXT make a nice hole, and my G30 is a tack driver for a Glock
If you reload get a 40, I shoot downloaded 180's, recoil is light, and there is still more knock down power than a 9, on the other hand a Glock 30 is about the same size as a G19/23, but in 45acp, 230 grain hydrashoks or Ranger SXT make a nice hole, and my G30 is a tack driver for a Glock
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Your comparing my 2 alltime favorite pistols. I love Glocks, and especially the midsize Glocks. I have had several G19's in the past. I presently have a stable of G23's. I don't mind the extra recoil, if I can't hit it in 14rds. I probly can't hit in 16. I like the extra energy of the 40, and the heavier bullet. Glock 19's are great pistols, and starting out it should be your choice, But I think I'll keep my 23's.
Your comparing my 2 alltime favorite pistols. I love Glocks, and especially the midsize Glocks. I have had several G19's in the past. I presently have a stable of G23's. I don't mind the extra recoil, if I can't hit it in 14rds. I probly can't hit in 16. I like the extra energy of the 40, and the heavier bullet. Glock 19's are great pistols, and starting out it should be your choice, But I think I'll keep my 23's.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
I would go with the G23.. I have seen ammo prices coming down, keep your eyes out and if you do find a good deal - stock up!
I would go with the G23.. I have seen ammo prices coming down, keep your eyes out and if you do find a good deal - stock up!
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
G19 for me. I used to be a hardcore .45ACP guy, but when I got back from serving a mission for the LDS church, I found ammo prices had doubled while I was gone, and .45 was far too expensive to practice extensively with. So I picked up an XDM9, and haven't regretted it once. I now have a few other goodies, including a G19, and love them all. I don't feel "under-gunned" with the little 9mm at all. It's hard to argue with 20 rounds of 147gr HST ready to go! Practice is the only way to improve and maintain your skills, and 9mm is way cheaper to buy, IMO.
And to repeat what's been stated above, shot placement is key. Unless you're packing something big enough to literally take chunks out of someone, caliber will only play a minor role. I'd rather get hit with a .45ACP in the arm than a .22LR in the heart, but maybe that's just me.
All that being said, I still love my 1911!
G19 for me. I used to be a hardcore .45ACP guy, but when I got back from serving a mission for the LDS church, I found ammo prices had doubled while I was gone, and .45 was far too expensive to practice extensively with. So I picked up an XDM9, and haven't regretted it once. I now have a few other goodies, including a G19, and love them all. I don't feel "under-gunned" with the little 9mm at all. It's hard to argue with 20 rounds of 147gr HST ready to go! Practice is the only way to improve and maintain your skills, and 9mm is way cheaper to buy, IMO.
And to repeat what's been stated above, shot placement is key. Unless you're packing something big enough to literally take chunks out of someone, caliber will only play a minor role. I'd rather get hit with a .45ACP in the arm than a .22LR in the heart, but maybe that's just me.
All that being said, I still love my 1911!
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. What is, "knock down" power?
</div></div>A myth. The bullet is carrying the most energy when it leaves the muzzle, and thus, you absorb more of it shooting it that the individual does who gets hit. The amount of energy is similar to a baseball being thrown by a major league pitcher, if I remember correctly.
In any case, there is not enough energy with just about any caliber to cause a "knock down." If someone falls down after being hit, it is because of a nerve response, or because they have seen it enough on tv to know that is what is "supposed to happen."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. What is, "knock down" power?
</div></div>A myth. The bullet is carrying the most energy when it leaves the muzzle, and thus, you absorb more of it shooting it that the individual does who gets hit. The amount of energy is similar to a baseball being thrown by a major league pitcher, if I remember correctly.
In any case, there is not enough energy with just about any caliber to cause a "knock down." If someone falls down after being hit, it is because of a nerve response, or because they have seen it enough on tv to know that is what is "supposed to happen."
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Get the G19 and don't look back.
The .40, IMO, is a silly cartridge. It wasn't engineered very well to begin with but found a home with the LE crowd and later the civilian population.
I remember the previous poster, Basher, before he went on his mission. He got me into 1911's. That was about 6 years ago, and ammo has become insanely expensive as Basher pointed out.
Now, I must disclose I prefer the .45, but your choices are between the 9mm, .40, and I've owned the G23 and G22, and due to the snap of the .40, I got rid of them both. My dad is a big proponent of the G19, he owns two of them; a generation 3 and an older gen. 2. I absolutely love them. Glock engineered the G19 for the 9mm. the G23 came about and they threw in a new barrel and springs and called it good. Consequently, the gun and the cartridge just don't work IMO. I've shot the .40 out of several other guns, a Sig 229, Beretta 96, and HK USP and it doesn't feel as bad, but out of the G23, it just didn't feel right.
As Basher said, the 9 is way cheaper to shoot and become efficient with, every ma and pa gun shop from here to the other side of the universe has 9 ammo, and the G19 is just a pleasure to shoot, conceal, and beat the hell out of and not care.
I carry a G21 because I'd cry if I sweated on, scratched, blead on my Les Baer TRS. I would never feel undergunned for a second with 15+1 9mm.
Bottom line: Get the G19.
Get the G19 and don't look back.
The .40, IMO, is a silly cartridge. It wasn't engineered very well to begin with but found a home with the LE crowd and later the civilian population.
I remember the previous poster, Basher, before he went on his mission. He got me into 1911's. That was about 6 years ago, and ammo has become insanely expensive as Basher pointed out.
Now, I must disclose I prefer the .45, but your choices are between the 9mm, .40, and I've owned the G23 and G22, and due to the snap of the .40, I got rid of them both. My dad is a big proponent of the G19, he owns two of them; a generation 3 and an older gen. 2. I absolutely love them. Glock engineered the G19 for the 9mm. the G23 came about and they threw in a new barrel and springs and called it good. Consequently, the gun and the cartridge just don't work IMO. I've shot the .40 out of several other guns, a Sig 229, Beretta 96, and HK USP and it doesn't feel as bad, but out of the G23, it just didn't feel right.
As Basher said, the 9 is way cheaper to shoot and become efficient with, every ma and pa gun shop from here to the other side of the universe has 9 ammo, and the G19 is just a pleasure to shoot, conceal, and beat the hell out of and not care.
I carry a G21 because I'd cry if I sweated on, scratched, blead on my Les Baer TRS. I would never feel undergunned for a second with 15+1 9mm.
Bottom line: Get the G19.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. What is, "knock down" power?
</div></div>A myth. The bullet is carrying the most energy when it leaves the muzzle, and thus, you absorb more of it shooting it that the individual does who gets hit. The amount of energy is similar to a baseball being thrown by a major league pitcher, if I remember correctly.
In any case, there is not enough energy with just about any caliber to cause a "knock down." If someone falls down after being hit, it is because of a nerve response, or because they have seen it enough on tv to know that is what is "supposed to happen." </div></div>
Can't agree with all this. I've turned deer wrong side out, they didn't simply collapse with nerve damage. Why don't you use 223's to kill cape buffalo? There is such a thing as knock down power. I have never received as much damage on my end of the 3006 as the deer have!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. What is, "knock down" power?
</div></div>A myth. The bullet is carrying the most energy when it leaves the muzzle, and thus, you absorb more of it shooting it that the individual does who gets hit. The amount of energy is similar to a baseball being thrown by a major league pitcher, if I remember correctly.
In any case, there is not enough energy with just about any caliber to cause a "knock down." If someone falls down after being hit, it is because of a nerve response, or because they have seen it enough on tv to know that is what is "supposed to happen." </div></div>
Can't agree with all this. I've turned deer wrong side out, they didn't simply collapse with nerve damage. Why don't you use 223's to kill cape buffalo? There is such a thing as knock down power. I have never received as much damage on my end of the 3006 as the deer have!
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. What is, "knock down" power?
</div></div>A myth. The bullet is carrying the most energy when it leaves the muzzle, and thus, you absorb more of it shooting it that the individual does who gets hit. The amount of energy is similar to a baseball being thrown by a major league pitcher, if I remember correctly.
In any case, there is not enough energy with just about any caliber to cause a "knock down." If someone falls down after being hit, it is because of a nerve response, or because they have seen it enough on tv to know that is what is "supposed to happen." </div></div>
Can't agree with all this. I've turned deer wrong side out, they didn't simply collapse with nerve damage. Why don't you use 223's to kill cape buffalo? There is such a thing as knock down power. I have never received as much damage on my end of the 3006 as the deer have! </div></div>Energy is energy. It's physics. The round is losing power as soon as it leaves the muzzle. That is not to say that you are taking more damage than the deer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. What is, "knock down" power?
</div></div>A myth. The bullet is carrying the most energy when it leaves the muzzle, and thus, you absorb more of it shooting it that the individual does who gets hit. The amount of energy is similar to a baseball being thrown by a major league pitcher, if I remember correctly.
In any case, there is not enough energy with just about any caliber to cause a "knock down." If someone falls down after being hit, it is because of a nerve response, or because they have seen it enough on tv to know that is what is "supposed to happen." </div></div>
Can't agree with all this. I've turned deer wrong side out, they didn't simply collapse with nerve damage. Why don't you use 223's to kill cape buffalo? There is such a thing as knock down power. I have never received as much damage on my end of the 3006 as the deer have! </div></div>Energy is energy. It's physics. The round is losing power as soon as it leaves the muzzle. That is not to say that you are taking more damage than the deer.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
I was issued a Glock 23 as a duty pistol years ago and have put many rounds through it. My current duty pistol is a Sig P226 chambered in .40, which has over 10,000 rounds through it. I own a Glock 19 and absolutely love it. With either the G19 or G23, time behind the gun will increase your ability to put fast, accurate shots onto the threat.
I currently carry either a G21SF or a G17 concealed most of the time. That being said, I have all the faith in the world in my G19.
My opinion would be go with the G19. You will not be disappointed.
I was issued a Glock 23 as a duty pistol years ago and have put many rounds through it. My current duty pistol is a Sig P226 chambered in .40, which has over 10,000 rounds through it. I own a Glock 19 and absolutely love it. With either the G19 or G23, time behind the gun will increase your ability to put fast, accurate shots onto the threat.
I currently carry either a G21SF or a G17 concealed most of the time. That being said, I have all the faith in the world in my G19.
My opinion would be go with the G19. You will not be disappointed.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
If you get the 23, you can get a 9mm conversion barrel for it and train with 9mm and carry with .40, best of both worlds.
If you get the 23, you can get a 9mm conversion barrel for it and train with 9mm and carry with .40, best of both worlds.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">427Cobra,
I have two questions:
1. What is, "knock down" power?
2. Why would you suggest an outdated bullet like the Hydrashok just because it's a .45? </div></div>
To answer your question about "knock down" power, search ballistic pressure wave, bullet momentum, and hydro-static shock. Not all handgun calibers are created equal and aside from shot placement, there is a lot more to it than just creating a hole to bleed out.
He also mentioned Ranger SXT, but Hydro-Shocks were very successful, so what's wrong with recommending them?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">427Cobra,
I have two questions:
1. What is, "knock down" power?
2. Why would you suggest an outdated bullet like the Hydrashok just because it's a .45? </div></div>
To answer your question about "knock down" power, search ballistic pressure wave, bullet momentum, and hydro-static shock. Not all handgun calibers are created equal and aside from shot placement, there is a lot more to it than just creating a hole to bleed out.
He also mentioned Ranger SXT, but Hydro-Shocks were very successful, so what's wrong with recommending them?
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Best of both worlds =.357 Sig!
Sorry, I like them all so I suggest you go with what feels best in your paws. It's no small consideration that 9mm is still the least expensive ammo out there.
Regarding installation of a 9mm brrel into a G22 or 23, I am curious about how well 9mm cases will feed from a .40/.357 Sig Glock magazine. Any issues?
Best of both worlds =.357 Sig!
Sorry, I like them all so I suggest you go with what feels best in your paws. It's no small consideration that 9mm is still the least expensive ammo out there.
Regarding installation of a 9mm brrel into a G22 or 23, I am curious about how well 9mm cases will feed from a .40/.357 Sig Glock magazine. Any issues?
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. What is, "knock down" power?
</div></div>A myth. The bullet is carrying the most energy when it leaves the muzzle, and thus, you absorb more of it shooting it that the individual does who gets hit. The amount of energy is similar to a baseball being thrown by a major league pitcher, if I remember correctly.
In any case, there is not enough energy with just about any caliber to cause a "knock down." If someone falls down after being hit, it is because of a nerve response, or because they have seen it enough on tv to know that is what is "supposed to happen." </div></div>
"Knock down" power is obviously a loosely used term to define a bullets ability to end a fight. The most effective handgun cartridge will expand rapidly and carry 450-550 ft lbs of energy into its target, penetrating 10-12". Destroying organs and crushing tissue with a rapidly expanding hollow point that doesn't exit vs. a straight through hole from a FMJ will achieve much different results, unless of course both are CNS hits. Energy is not just energy, it's how it's expended.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. What is, "knock down" power?
</div></div>A myth. The bullet is carrying the most energy when it leaves the muzzle, and thus, you absorb more of it shooting it that the individual does who gets hit. The amount of energy is similar to a baseball being thrown by a major league pitcher, if I remember correctly.
In any case, there is not enough energy with just about any caliber to cause a "knock down." If someone falls down after being hit, it is because of a nerve response, or because they have seen it enough on tv to know that is what is "supposed to happen." </div></div>
"Knock down" power is obviously a loosely used term to define a bullets ability to end a fight. The most effective handgun cartridge will expand rapidly and carry 450-550 ft lbs of energy into its target, penetrating 10-12". Destroying organs and crushing tissue with a rapidly expanding hollow point that doesn't exit vs. a straight through hole from a FMJ will achieve much different results, unless of course both are CNS hits. Energy is not just energy, it's how it's expended.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding installation of a 9mm brrel into a G22 or 23, I am curious about how well 9mm cases will feed from a .40/.357 Sig Glock magazine. Any issues? </div></div>
If you do the conversion barrel and wish to shoot 9mm from a Glock 40 cal, you will need to get 9mm mags.... Also, you cannot just stick any 9mm glock barrel in there, you need to buy the specific conversion barrel, that has same OD as the 40 cal barrel. Some say you also need to change out the extractor when converting, but I have not had to do this in multiple glocks and multiple barrels over the last 8 years, and have had no reliability problems using conversion barrels (name brands from LoneWolf or similar recommended).
The conversion takes all of 15 seconds, the most difficult part is keep the correct ammo calibers and mags separate.
One brand that I have had success with is the bar-sto brand. It will pay for itself in ammo savings fairly quickly. Lone wolf brand should also be ok.
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding installation of a 9mm brrel into a G22 or 23, I am curious about how well 9mm cases will feed from a .40/.357 Sig Glock magazine. Any issues? </div></div>
If you do the conversion barrel and wish to shoot 9mm from a Glock 40 cal, you will need to get 9mm mags.... Also, you cannot just stick any 9mm glock barrel in there, you need to buy the specific conversion barrel, that has same OD as the 40 cal barrel. Some say you also need to change out the extractor when converting, but I have not had to do this in multiple glocks and multiple barrels over the last 8 years, and have had no reliability problems using conversion barrels (name brands from LoneWolf or similar recommended).
The conversion takes all of 15 seconds, the most difficult part is keep the correct ammo calibers and mags separate.
One brand that I have had success with is the bar-sto brand. It will pay for itself in ammo savings fairly quickly. Lone wolf brand should also be ok.
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Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Thanks ST.
I already have a Lonewolf in .40 that I bought for running lead bullets in my 23. It's a good barrel and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I wish they made replacement barrels for Sigs as I'd like to buy a .40 barrel for my 229 (.357 Sig) and wilt at the Sig prices!
Not that Sig's prices are unfair, I'm just a cheap bastard! I got the .229 for a great price but I have yet to find any inexpensive factory .357 rounds!
Thanks ST.
I already have a Lonewolf in .40 that I bought for running lead bullets in my 23. It's a good barrel and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I wish they made replacement barrels for Sigs as I'd like to buy a .40 barrel for my 229 (.357 Sig) and wilt at the Sig prices!
Not that Sig's prices are unfair, I'm just a cheap bastard! I got the .229 for a great price but I have yet to find any inexpensive factory .357 rounds!
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
I'd go for the G19. I love mine, and you won't be undergunned with it.
No matter what the internet says, a 9mm bullet will still mess you up. Just don't ask me how I know.
I'd go for the G19. I love mine, and you won't be undergunned with it.
No matter what the internet says, a 9mm bullet will still mess you up. Just don't ask me how I know.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
I would go with the G19. I have one and my brother have one. I love it, carry it concealed every day. A 9mm with a JHP at least 115 or greater will knock down whatever you want. I have did many test for penetration between a 9 and 45. for the weight and capacity I would rather the 9mm. As for knock down power, anything will knock someone back. use a JHP and shoot in the heart and head and you will have no problems. Just my 2 cents. I owned a 40 and did not take a liking to the cartridge, it's just different to me and I personally don't but you won't be unsatisfied with the G19
I would go with the G19. I have one and my brother have one. I love it, carry it concealed every day. A 9mm with a JHP at least 115 or greater will knock down whatever you want. I have did many test for penetration between a 9 and 45. for the weight and capacity I would rather the 9mm. As for knock down power, anything will knock someone back. use a JHP and shoot in the heart and head and you will have no problems. Just my 2 cents. I owned a 40 and did not take a liking to the cartridge, it's just different to me and I personally don't but you won't be unsatisfied with the G19
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks ST.
I already have a Lonewolf in .40 that I bought for running lead bullets in my 23. It's a good barrel and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I wish they made replacement barrels for Sigs as I'd like to buy a .40 barrel for my 229 (.357 Sig) and wilt at the Sig prices!
Not that Sig's prices are unfair, I'm just a cheap bastard! I got the .229 for a great price but I have yet to find any inexpensive factory .357 rounds! </div></div>
Storm Lake makes a .40 S&W barrel for your 229.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks ST.
I already have a Lonewolf in .40 that I bought for running lead bullets in my 23. It's a good barrel and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I wish they made replacement barrels for Sigs as I'd like to buy a .40 barrel for my 229 (.357 Sig) and wilt at the Sig prices!
Not that Sig's prices are unfair, I'm just a cheap bastard! I got the .229 for a great price but I have yet to find any inexpensive factory .357 rounds! </div></div>
Storm Lake makes a .40 S&W barrel for your 229.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
It's all about shot placement. Handgun bullets are small and slow. You need perfect shot placement against a determined animal, human or otherwise. There is no such thing as knock-down power. Unless you're shooting .50 BMG.
Get the 9mm, practice 50% more, and have less tendencies toward flinch to boot. 40 cal is notoriously snappy.
I should say I shoot 9mm, 40, and .45 all the time, but if I were going to have only one, it would be 9mm, hands down, no reason to ever think about it.
It's all about shot placement. Handgun bullets are small and slow. You need perfect shot placement against a determined animal, human or otherwise. There is no such thing as knock-down power. Unless you're shooting .50 BMG.
Get the 9mm, practice 50% more, and have less tendencies toward flinch to boot. 40 cal is notoriously snappy.
I should say I shoot 9mm, 40, and .45 all the time, but if I were going to have only one, it would be 9mm, hands down, no reason to ever think about it.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
I suppose when the New York State police changed from 9mm to .45 it was because we had a surplus of funds in the state and trying something new would be cool. From the horses mouth "we have just not been satisfied with the 9mm's performance", as quoted from several officers.
9mm is the best rd to practice with from a budget standpoint, but there are more effective rds in a life or death situation.
I suppose when the New York State police changed from 9mm to .45 it was because we had a surplus of funds in the state and trying something new would be cool. From the horses mouth "we have just not been satisfied with the 9mm's performance", as quoted from several officers.
9mm is the best rd to practice with from a budget standpoint, but there are more effective rds in a life or death situation.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
TKOF = m bullet x v bullet x d bullet divided by 7000
* mBullet is the bullet mass in grains (1 pound = 7000 grains)
* vBullet is the bullet velocity in feet per second
* dBullet is the bullet diameter in inches
I know this formula is for hunting rifles, but if you ran the .45 ACP, 9mm and 40s&w with this formula then it would at least give you a number to wrap your head around!
TKOF = m bullet x v bullet x d bullet divided by 7000
* mBullet is the bullet mass in grains (1 pound = 7000 grains)
* vBullet is the bullet velocity in feet per second
* dBullet is the bullet diameter in inches
I know this formula is for hunting rifles, but if you ran the .45 ACP, 9mm and 40s&w with this formula then it would at least give you a number to wrap your head around!
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">427Cobra,
I have two questions:
1. What is, "knock down" power?
2. Why would you suggest an outdated bullet like the Hydrashok just because it's a .45? </div></div>
To answer your question about "knock down" power, search ballistic pressure wave, bullet momentum, and hydro-static shock. Not all handgun calibers are created equal and aside from shot placement, there is a lot more to it than just creating a hole to bleed out.
He also mentioned Ranger SXT, but Hydro-Shocks were very successful, so what's wrong with recommending them? </div></div>
I don't need to research that nonsense because handguns are really bad at creating it. A handgun bullet just doesn't have a lot of energy at all.
Hydrashocks are 20 year old technology. Even with modern hollowpoints, 50% will fail to expand anyway. Suggesting a 20 year old bullet assures the performance will be even crappier.
I'm not one of these people who does a ton of research on ammo for handguns because it's irrelevant. But I do use and carry only modern hollowpoints in the heaviest weight available for a given caliber. That means 147s in 9mm and 230s in .45.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">427Cobra,
I have two questions:
1. What is, "knock down" power?
2. Why would you suggest an outdated bullet like the Hydrashok just because it's a .45? </div></div>
To answer your question about "knock down" power, search ballistic pressure wave, bullet momentum, and hydro-static shock. Not all handgun calibers are created equal and aside from shot placement, there is a lot more to it than just creating a hole to bleed out.
He also mentioned Ranger SXT, but Hydro-Shocks were very successful, so what's wrong with recommending them? </div></div>
I don't need to research that nonsense because handguns are really bad at creating it. A handgun bullet just doesn't have a lot of energy at all.
Hydrashocks are 20 year old technology. Even with modern hollowpoints, 50% will fail to expand anyway. Suggesting a 20 year old bullet assures the performance will be even crappier.
I'm not one of these people who does a ton of research on ammo for handguns because it's irrelevant. But I do use and carry only modern hollowpoints in the heaviest weight available for a given caliber. That means 147s in 9mm and 230s in .45.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can't agree with all this. I've turned deer wrong side out, they didn't simply collapse with nerve damage. Why don't you use 223's to kill cape buffalo? There is such a thing as knock down power. I have never received as much damage on my end of the 3006 as the deer have! </div></div>
You don't shoot at huge game with a small bullet because it won't penetrate deep enough to hit anything that bleeds enough to kill it. That should be a common sense question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can't agree with all this. I've turned deer wrong side out, they didn't simply collapse with nerve damage. Why don't you use 223's to kill cape buffalo? There is such a thing as knock down power. I have never received as much damage on my end of the 3006 as the deer have! </div></div>
You don't shoot at huge game with a small bullet because it won't penetrate deep enough to hit anything that bleeds enough to kill it. That should be a common sense question.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suppose when the New York State police changed from 9mm to .45 it was because we had a surplus of funds in the state and trying something new would be cool. From the horses mouth "we have just not been satisfied with the 9mm's performance", as quoted from several officers.
9mm is the best rd to practice with from a budget standpoint, but there are more effective rds in a life or death situation. </div></div>
The second part is the furthest thing from the truth. Its a well known that officer involved shootings tend to have high round counts fired and few hits on target. Also the 9 vs 45 holds no water, its all about training and shot placement. Nothing more nothing less. Why change the Hardware (pistols) when in fact its the software (individual officer) that needs to be changed
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dark Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suppose when the New York State police changed from 9mm to .45 it was because we had a surplus of funds in the state and trying something new would be cool. From the horses mouth "we have just not been satisfied with the 9mm's performance", as quoted from several officers.
9mm is the best rd to practice with from a budget standpoint, but there are more effective rds in a life or death situation. </div></div>
The second part is the furthest thing from the truth. Its a well known that officer involved shootings tend to have high round counts fired and few hits on target. Also the 9 vs 45 holds no water, its all about training and shot placement. Nothing more nothing less. Why change the Hardware (pistols) when in fact its the software (individual officer) that needs to be changed
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
I have both 40's and 9mm's. The .40 has more of a snap type recoil. Shoot both if you can before making a decision. You'll get some idea. I knew Uzi Galil and I asked him what he thought about a particular pistol. He said he's only fired about 1,000 thru it so he hadn't decided. Keep that in mind.
I have both 40's and 9mm's. The .40 has more of a snap type recoil. Shoot both if you can before making a decision. You'll get some idea. I knew Uzi Galil and I asked him what he thought about a particular pistol. He said he's only fired about 1,000 thru it so he hadn't decided. Keep that in mind.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
other than being cheaper to shoot and a lighter recoil, no. Had a 23, didn't like the muzzle flip from the snappy .40. So I got a 22, IMO much better. Speed x Mass= Power! I personally like my .40, some like .22's others .500s&w. It's all about what You are comfortable shooting. If you can, try them both and make Your decision based on what feels best to You. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and they all stink. Just my .02, with it and $1 you can get a cup of coffee.
Eric
other than being cheaper to shoot and a lighter recoil, no. Had a 23, didn't like the muzzle flip from the snappy .40. So I got a 22, IMO much better. Speed x Mass= Power! I personally like my .40, some like .22's others .500s&w. It's all about what You are comfortable shooting. If you can, try them both and make Your decision based on what feels best to You. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and they all stink. Just my .02, with it and $1 you can get a cup of coffee.
Eric
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Not sure what you're arguing here. If money is an issue, 9mm is the cheapest to shoot.
Do you really think law enforcement agencies around the country are going to replace officers if they are unhappy with the results of a shooting? Of course not, they will evaluate their training and try to determine what fits their specific need. These agencies don't spend thousands of dollars on research and testing because they are bored, obviously there is some truth handgun effectiveness.
It's pretty safe to say the only guaranteed stop is a CNS hit, these agencies also know that officers under fire are not going to be capable of that 100% of the time, therefore want to give them the most effective tool they feel will end the fight in their favor.
Not sure what you're arguing here. If money is an issue, 9mm is the cheapest to shoot.
Do you really think law enforcement agencies around the country are going to replace officers if they are unhappy with the results of a shooting? Of course not, they will evaluate their training and try to determine what fits their specific need. These agencies don't spend thousands of dollars on research and testing because they are bored, obviously there is some truth handgun effectiveness.
It's pretty safe to say the only guaranteed stop is a CNS hit, these agencies also know that officers under fire are not going to be capable of that 100% of the time, therefore want to give them the most effective tool they feel will end the fight in their favor.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Thats what i was getting at. The officers training needs to be brought up to speed. Not the weapons being changed. The 9mm is just as good at stopping threats as a 40 and a 45....its all in shot placement. That being said, i would choose the 9mm over the 40 any day of the week.
Thats what i was getting at. The officers training needs to be brought up to speed. Not the weapons being changed. The 9mm is just as good at stopping threats as a 40 and a 45....its all in shot placement. That being said, i would choose the 9mm over the 40 any day of the week.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
Also the comparison between 30-06 and .223 is not the same as comparing 9mm to 40 cal to .45 acp.
Putting rounds into the c-spine is what stops mammals quickly, followed brain shut down caused by blood pressure loss, which you only get quickly if you cut the aorta or destroy the heart. Or if you get total lung collapse and die of suffocation.
There are a million examples of this, Baby-face Nelson being an obvious one, hit 6 times in the chest by 230 grain .45 acp (going way faster than from a 1911, as they were fired from a Thompson submachinegun), plus some buckshot, goes on to kill the two FBI agents who shot him and then proceeded to escape the scene (only to bleed out later).
All I'm sayin is it's shot placement, and if you're comparing two similar calibers, go with the one that's cheaper and easier to shoot accurately.
Also the comparison between 30-06 and .223 is not the same as comparing 9mm to 40 cal to .45 acp.
Putting rounds into the c-spine is what stops mammals quickly, followed brain shut down caused by blood pressure loss, which you only get quickly if you cut the aorta or destroy the heart. Or if you get total lung collapse and die of suffocation.
There are a million examples of this, Baby-face Nelson being an obvious one, hit 6 times in the chest by 230 grain .45 acp (going way faster than from a 1911, as they were fired from a Thompson submachinegun), plus some buckshot, goes on to kill the two FBI agents who shot him and then proceeded to escape the scene (only to bleed out later).
All I'm sayin is it's shot placement, and if you're comparing two similar calibers, go with the one that's cheaper and easier to shoot accurately.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
If you're looking to carry, 15 rounds of 9mm will save some weight over 15 rounds of 40. The whole 9mm, 40, 45 crap battle will never end. I'd rather be shot at by a drunk with a 44 mag, than Todd Jarrett with a 22lr......
just learn to shoot.
If you're looking to carry, 15 rounds of 9mm will save some weight over 15 rounds of 40. The whole 9mm, 40, 45 crap battle will never end. I'd rather be shot at by a drunk with a 44 mag, than Todd Jarrett with a 22lr......
just learn to shoot.
Re: 40 S&W vs 9mm
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 16 Bore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're looking to carry, 15 rounds of 9mm will save some weight over 15 rounds of 40. The whole 9mm, 40, 45 crap battle will never end. I'd rather be shot at by a drunk with a 44 mag, than Todd Jarrett with a 22lr......
just learn to shoot. </div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 16 Bore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're looking to carry, 15 rounds of 9mm will save some weight over 15 rounds of 40. The whole 9mm, 40, 45 crap battle will never end. I'd rather be shot at by a drunk with a 44 mag, than Todd Jarrett with a 22lr......
just learn to shoot. </div></div>
