5.56/ACOG out to 600m; what am I in for?

Yellowhammer

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Jun 9, 2018
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Going to a friendly rifleman themed shoot next month with varying ranges out to 600m with 24 inch silhouette targets. Going to use a 16 inch 6920 and 4x32 ACOG. Going to shoot m193.

I’ve shot 300m pop ups with an ACOG before but never farther than that.

What am I in for at 600?
 
The ACOG will be fine, just make sure you have a good zero. I engaged pop ups out to 700m with them. I tried 800m without much luck, couldn’t even tell where my rounds were impacting. (with 5.56)
 
For shooting at 600 I don't recommend M193. You probably don't need super heavies, but something match or at least high-grade around 69gr will make shooting that distance much more tolerable. I'll echo that in the 700-800 area I stop seeing impacts with 5.56 regardless of grain weight.
 
Wind drift will be a factor.

You say which reticle, or your velocity, but you can expect that a 2mph wind will give you 0.1mil per 100 yards drift.

That, and the fact that the best M193 I ever saw grouped about 3 moa at that distance.
 
Skookum, your user name wouldn’t be referring to a slang term for a porta john by chance would it?

In regards to ammo, I’ve got a ton of m855 but I always thought it shot worse than the 193. I suppose I do have time to order some 75 gr bthp.

Acog is red crosshairs
 

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I have TA33 I just put on mine.

Only 3X for me and Ive only shot out to 300 yards but I think you will be plenty capable.

If you have the twist for it 77s will be your friends.
 
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??

I watch BOLTR on you tube, he is a Canadian that tears all kinds of tools apart to see how well they are built. If it’s good he says it’s “Skookum”, is that any closer than a porta potty?
Skookum can mean well built, tough, heavy or substantial. It can also mean intelligent or cunning...It can also mean fat.

My father in law is Canadian and gave me the nickname. He said of course it was because I am strong and smart...but I'm not all that convinced!:cautious:
 
Skookum was the name of the porta John service company at an Army post and their name was all over the stalls and the pump trucks. This turned Skookum into a noun for a porta John. Didn't know if we had crossed paths.

Ah JBLM. I remember "skookum love" in the context of the skookums being a common slang term as well.
 
You will be fine. Ideally you get a solid zero at 600 then let the rest end up where they do.

I have had acceptable results with a 14.5 77s, and TA31F out to 600m
 
M193 would not be a wise choice for being competitive at 600m. I’ve run several open enrollment SPR courses and every single dude who shows up with 55gr. (Against my recommendation) is disappointed at the 300-400m mark. 77 or 69 SMKs are where you want to look if a 600m capability is needed. 55gr. Just doesn’t have the BC to fight the wind and bleeds velocity to the point where impacts will be very difficult to read.
 
M193 would not be a wise choice for being competitive at 600m. I’ve run several open enrollment SPR courses and every single dude who shows up with 55gr. (Against my recommendation) is disappointed at the 300-400m mark. 77 or 69 SMKs are where you want to look if a 600m capability is needed. 55gr. Just doesn’t have the BC to fight the wind and bleeds velocity to the point where impacts will be very difficult to read.

Cool, thanks for info. Will go shopping.
 
Going to a friendly rifleman themed shoot next month with varying ranges out to 600m with 24 inch silhouette targets. Going to use a 16 inch 6920 and 4x32 ACOG. Going to shoot m193.

I’ve shot 300m pop ups with an ACOG before but never farther than that.

What am I in for at 600?
100% feasible. Have done this many times with basically the same set up and for a grade at that. Make sure you have a solid ass zero and you will be good to go!
 
Counting hits or measuring groups?
The 75gr hpbt or even the 69gr TMK does well across the course.
77's don't have the B.C. for rookies (like me) to shoot in the wind @ 600

Well...not really, the publish BCs of the SMK and BTHP are considered a bit erroneous. 3rd party testing (Litz) has shown the following:

77 SMK- .190 G7
75 HPBT- .183 G7

That said, the BCs are probably close enough that a rookie shooter (someone struggling to make a wind call within +/- 2 mph) would probably be incapable of exacting much of an advantage with one over the other.

The real advantage is the fact that the SMKs are pretty easy to get shooting in just about any rifle, the ogive is very for giving. The same isn’t always true with the BTHPs, their ogive is more abrupt and tend to be more finicky from one rifle to the next.

Again the reality is either projectile will work for 600m from a ballistics standpoint but SMKs have proven track record of doing it with less hassle.
 
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77 SMK, 2800 fps, 2000 ft, 4 mph wind.

13C15719-F486-4A7E-9620-ADD35B3D804B.png6A1F2138-72C5-4DD6-A7C1-BCBCFFCBD5DE.png

Of course your competition will be in yards, and your reticle is in meters, so here is the value of the hashes under the crosshair in MILS:
200m = 2.3 mils wide
300m = 1.5 mils wide
400m = 1.1 mils wide
500m = .9 mils wide

A 4 mph wind gives you 0.1mil drift per 100 yards.
 
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Thanks skookum, I'm thinking about zeroing at 300 yards with 300m hash (if I can get a solid zero at 300 w/4x) and that should keep the hashes close(r) to accurate 0-600.

I thought .mil 300m pop-ups were easy mode with ACOG so hoping 600 yards will be enjoyable. Ironically, I've been practicing getting into proper shooting positions for the first time in several years and it's not quite as comfortable/easy as I had remembered. Must be the 25 extra pounds around my belly these days.
 
I have TA33 I just put on mine.

Only 3X for me and Ive only shot out to 300 yards but I think you will be plenty capable.

If you have the twist for it 77s will be your friends.

How do you like the ta33 vs the 4x models? I'll eventually scratch the acog itch, but other things have been a priority. The ta33 is the one i think i would get.
 
If you’re shooting at a target that doesn’t have a backstop (or let alone a great backstop) good luck correcting any misses. Especially with that ammo. 8x would be ideal. 6x would be nice. But I hope you find that 4x will get it done.

Without vast amounts of training shooting at anything less than 1x per hundred yards is not exactly a walk in the park.
 
How do you like the ta33 vs the 4x models? I'll eventually scratch the acog itch, but other things have been a priority. The ta33 is the one i think i would get.

I didn't have much COG experience prior to buying the TA33.

I was pushed that way though because of the reports the eye relief way exceeds that of the eyelash to glass reported in the 4X version.

I only have limited use with mine and I can use it with being a comfortable distance from the optic.

I can look over and around the gun/COG and still see the chevron just fine.

My only complaint is that there is no diopter focus.

I need glasses but generally don't use them in life and I cancel out the need with ocular focus on my scopes.

The TA33 reticle is not sharp unless I use my prescription.

That complaint would be similar across the ACOG line.

I understand the 3.5 ACOG also has greater eye relief. Look at that model too.

I bought the TA33 impulse like here on the PX when I was thinking my 16 inch carbine needed a diet and I ditched the full service 1-8X in order to have something "light and handy" , primarily 400 yards and in.

Torso plates might be tough to pickup at 600 and 3X depending on background but if you can see them you should be able to scare them.

Really the most common access I have to 600 features big ass across the course bullseyes. The 3X would have no problem "seeing" those as long as my glasses don't fog up.
 
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If you’re shooting at a target that doesn’t have a backstop (or let alone a great backstop) good luck correcting any misses. Especially with that ammo. 8x would be ideal. 6x would be nice. But I hope you find that 4x will get it done.

Without vast amounts of training shooting at anything less than 1x per hundred yards is not exactly a walk in the park.

Great point.

Comes down to what is the intended use of the rifle.

You want a lightweight sturdy carbine than maybe a full service scope is not part of the equation.

If more than some percent of the course is expected to be at distance than you don't need a different optic, you need a different class of rifle.
 
Well since marines hit at 500m with iron sights no big deal. 600 with an acog is childs play.

personally used an acog out to 900. good enough to be minute of vehicle with an M4

Well Jesus Christ, Marry, Joseph and all the carpenters...I don’t know what it is about this forum lately but it seems to have been struck with a blight of ignorance brought forth by an influx of un-informed characters that seem to desire to participate for no other reason than to present braggadocio claims if their marksmanship.

Now don’t get me wrong, I love to spin a tale from time to time but I do so with a purpose and benefits to others.

Fact: Marines do shoot to 500m during table 1, with irons (and now also with RCOs)

Fact: that target is (unless it’s changed) a full 20”x40” E-type...with 6’x6’ backer. All impacts on the board are marked with spotting disk to give the shoot visual add.

Fact: only 37-49% of Marines will qualify expert, which can be achieved with a minimum hit rate of 50% at 500m...on a full E-type. Most Marines will qualify as sharp shooter or marksman which can be done with 0% hits at 500m (though unlikely)

Fact: these scores are achieved after two weeks of professional instruction/indoctrination immediately proceeding qualification for scoring.

So returning to the OP situation:

“...varying ranges out to 600m with 24 inch silhouette targets. Going to use a 16 inch 6920 and 4x32 ACOG. Going to shoot m193.”

Here we have a situation where the distances are likely to be unknown, with targets almost half the size, and likely no spotting disk to add in correcting misses and splash even with the heavy projectiles is likely to be difficult.

While it certainly not an impossible task for an expert shooter, and the use of better rifles and ammunition greatly increase hit probability, it still isn’t “child’s play” especially when asked to deliver on command.

This regurgitate of things like “wElL tHe mArInes...AnD iRoN sIGhts!” is generally unproductive and misleading.
 
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Magtech 77 grain is civilian sale equivalent of Black Hills Mk262 77 grain, both are proven 600m performers with the right twist and a capable shooter.
The factory 75 grain offerings have a slightly lower bc and less muzzle velocity, but are usable.
Any factory ammo in a 68 or 69 grain loading will do what you ask, but a bit less desirable that 75/77.
M193 is the least desirable. I shoot a lot of it 300 and under, no complaints there with it.
vr
 
Well Jesus Christ, Marry, Joseph and all the carpenters...I don’t know what it is about this forum lately but it seems to have been struck with a blight of ignorance brought forth by an influx of un-informed characters that seem to desire to participate for no other reason than to present braggadocio claims if their marksmanship.

Now don’t get me wrong, I love to spin a tale from time to time but I do so with a purpose and benefits to others.

Fact: Marines do shoot to 500m during table 1, with irons (and now also with RCOs)

Fact: that target is (unless it’s changed) a full 20”x40” E-type...with 6’x6’ backer. All impacts on the board are marked with spotting disk to give the shoot visual add.

Fact: only 37-49% of Marines will qualify expert, which can be achieved with a minimum hit rate of 50% at 500m...on a full E-type. Most Marines will qualify as sharp shooter or marksman which can be done with 0% hits at 500m (though unlikely)

Fact: these scores are achieved after two weeks of professional instruction/indoctrination immediately proceeding qualification for scoring.

So returning to the OP situation:

“...varying ranges out to 600m with 24 inch silhouette targets. Going to use a 16 inch 6920 and 4x32 ACOG. Going to shoot m193.”

Here we have a situation where the distances are likely to be unknown, with targets almost half the size, and likely no spotting disk to add in correcting misses and splash even with the heavy projectiles is likely to be difficult.

While it certainly not an impossible task for an expert shooter, and the use of better rifles and ammunition greatly increase hit probability, it still isn’t “child’s play” especially when asked to deliver on command.

This regurgitate of things like “wElL tHe mArInes...AnD iRoN sIGhts!” is generally unproductive and misleading.


ahahahahaha Fact: I think you are a stupid fuck. Who even tries to look up that shit?

And hitting a 24 inch silhouette with a 4x acog at 600 is not a big deal. Just how it is. That's not bragging. A fucking monkey with a half assed decent
concept of trigger pull can do it.
 
Here's another take on it. If this is your first comp, you are not going to win.

Use it as a training opportunity and get your feet wet. At least 5.56 is way cheaper than other rounds to try with, AND it will give you a chance to shake down your carbine.

I plan on shooting a 600 yard club match this spring with exactly the same type of set up. I figure, if I'm gonna get my ass kicked, it might as well be inexpensive.
 
I plan on shooting a 600 yard club match this spring with exactly the same type of set up. I figure, if I'm gonna get my ass kicked, it might as well be inexpensive.

I shoot 600 club matches (NRA sanctioned or something).
The first one got me this really cool Participation Award from the NRA.
The next year I made it all the way up the ladder to Sharpshooter.
Each time out I beat my last score.
 
ahahahahaha Fact: I think you are a stupid fuck. Who even tries to look up that shit?

And hitting a 24 inch silhouette with a 4x acog at 600 is not a big deal. Just how it is. That's not bragging. A fucking monkey with a half assed decent
concept of trigger pull can do it.

So supporting a position with facts make me the asshole... I’ll take that I guess.

Bottom line, the facts suggest that you’re average monkey can only achieve marginal success under ideal conditions with a similarly equipped rifle.

Sure an expert shooter (which I’m sure you undoubtedly are) will produce hits at an above average rate but the OP admits his experience is limited to 300 and in...so tell him he’s going to be competitive at 500-600m while slinging M193 through an ACOG out of a 16” barrel is disingenuous.

Three key to success in the OPs situation as I see it:

1- Maximize performance of platform: lieu of changing optics, a significant amount of gain can be made in correct ammunition selection.

2- Maximize shooter performance: Attending professional periods of instruction on the topics of “scoped carbine” or “SPR” would span that knowledge gap quickly. At a bare minimum attendance of a Service Rifle match would be cheaper and probably provide sufficient informal training given enough time and if good coaching can be found.

3- Maximize exposure to similar situations: if you want get better at anything you got to put in the reps. How you do that can vary but again SR matches will build/confirm the fundamentals and allow for data collection while holding you to a known metric of grade.
 
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Shot a couple NRA highpower rifle matches at Parris Island's Inchon Range back in the 2001-2002 timeframe. They required everyone to use factory ammo, so the match fees included issued ammo, which was Black Hills 68gr. A couple of the PMIs ran a couple of our rifles from the 500 for SG&G and they held the 9 ring without issue.
Inchon.JPG


Had a guy shoot an A4 with ACOG at our matches locally. His first-ever rifle matches and to be honest, he did pretty well, considering. He started with M193 but when he saw the difference beyond 300yds the 77gr Mk262 equivalent load I gave him made, he shifted. He could reliably hit IPSC steel at 500-600 in mild wind.
2012-08-25_15-06-40_710.jpg
 
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