I''m building a rifle within the next week. I currently have a 308. Is a 6.5 creedmoor a duplication of effort? Should I pick a different caliber? I had almost decided on the 7mm Rem Mag then I saw it had a short barrel life, and was a belted mag. Don't know if the belted is good or bad, depends on what you read. I'm only interested in a caliber that I can buy the ammo off the shelf I don't want a wildcat, personal opinion only. Let me know what you think. Most of my shooting will be 600 meters or less, with 1000 yard matches in the future.
- Thread starter Lrdchaos
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I think good luck finding 6.5 creedmore on a shelf. You can find it but mostly it's located next to the hens teeth.
On the shelf will depend on where you live as with any ammo. I can't find match .308 around me on the shelf. But if you order it online you can find plenty of ammo
GunBot 65creedmoor rifle ammo
GunBot 65creedmoor rifle ammo
The 6.5 Creedmoor is like cheating compared to the .308.
had a .308 went creed and would never go back.
Inside 600 you won't see much difference. Beyond that you will smoke any .308. The drift, drop, recoil and consistency are all superior. It's just better. Much more efficient. You won't be disappointed with the switch. Also, you can get 6.5 CM for pretty cheap and I don't have too much trouble finding factory ammo online typically.
Depends on what your effort is... If mid-range precision it most likely will be a duplication. (and an inferior one at that)
That said, I have a 308 and a 260. But the 308 has a 16.5" bbl, a low mag optic, and weighs much less than the 24" 260. It's a fantastic bush gun and is loaded to deliver much more energy on target within 200 yds.
Different tools for different jobs. Oh, and ammo is cheaper for the 308, even when reloading.
All IMHO, YMMV, etc...
Sent from my SCH-I500
That said, I have a 308 and a 260. But the 308 has a 16.5" bbl, a low mag optic, and weighs much less than the 24" 260. It's a fantastic bush gun and is loaded to deliver much more energy on target within 200 yds.
Different tools for different jobs. Oh, and ammo is cheaper for the 308, even when reloading.
All IMHO, YMMV, etc...
Sent from my SCH-I500
Supergyro said:
When I ran the numbers last year between 308 and 260 using Lapua brass (6 firings per piece) and Hornady A-Max bullets (178gr vs. 140gr) it was literally the same per-load price.
I see what you're saying. I probably should have worded it as "308 can be cheaper to load." Brass, bullets, and factory ammo can all be found cheaper. (with a coordinating loss in performance)
Sent from my SCH-I500
Personally I think the 6.5 cm would fit your bill great. Perfect do all caliber for matches, medium game hunting. etc.
Ammo may try this.
6.5mm Creedmoor
Ammo may try this.
6.5mm Creedmoor
if you are going to compete in prs matches, and you want to place you are going to have to think about 6.5 cm. if you are going to compete in the new rifleman league, that is happening here on the hide, you can stick to .308.
yes 6.5 is superior to the .308, but (and im sure I will be corrected if im wrong), from all the research I have done, It really only gives you a slight edge over the .308. that said, if you are competing against the folks that are in the " pro category" , even if you have the 6.5 cm, you don't have much chance to win or place. that's why I like this new league that is happening, it levels the playing field more.
I like .308, because its what I learned on, its how I train, i know all the formulas, and i don't have to learn different dope, or different wind call formulas. i don't need a ballistic computer to tell me my holds or my wind, i can figure it in my head. (not saying you cant do that w/ 6.5 cm) i also like .308, because there is a LOT lying around and will be much easier to find during the zombie apocalypse which i believe will begin any day now...
yes 6.5 is superior to the .308, but (and im sure I will be corrected if im wrong), from all the research I have done, It really only gives you a slight edge over the .308. that said, if you are competing against the folks that are in the " pro category" , even if you have the 6.5 cm, you don't have much chance to win or place. that's why I like this new league that is happening, it levels the playing field more.
I like .308, because its what I learned on, its how I train, i know all the formulas, and i don't have to learn different dope, or different wind call formulas. i don't need a ballistic computer to tell me my holds or my wind, i can figure it in my head. (not saying you cant do that w/ 6.5 cm) i also like .308, because there is a LOT lying around and will be much easier to find during the zombie apocalypse which i believe will begin any day now...
You are wrong. Run the numbers of a 140 AMAX at 2850fps and a 175SMK at 2700fps.
If you aren't winning or placing with a Creedmoor it's more about your shooting than the round.
It is a pretty noticeable difference. Every time I get behind my buddie's 6.5's (after shooting 308) I have to cut my wind holds in half. It actually feels like cheating. Seriously.
When I get off my lazy ass and get another medium caliber PR, it'll be 6.5. This is after shooting them a lot next to my own 308s on the same courses. So yeah don't worry, they are very, very different. Shoot your 308 and then jump behind a 6.5 in the same conditions and you'll be pretty goddam surprised.
When I get off my lazy ass and get another medium caliber PR, it'll be 6.5. This is after shooting them a lot next to my own 308s on the same courses. So yeah don't worry, they are very, very different. Shoot your 308 and then jump behind a 6.5 in the same conditions and you'll be pretty goddam surprised.
I'm in the same boat as you. A new 6.5 Creed, ordering this summer, hopefully 
I don't know what all this talk about low ammo is. I see 140 match ammo all over here. Everything else is hard to find though. Good luck on your build.
I don't know what all this talk about low ammo is. I see 140 match ammo all over here. Everything else is hard to find though. Good luck on your build.Let me put simply, I have a 308 bolt unfired since I got a 260 rem, now I also have a great AR10 in 308 then a good shooting buddy built a 6.5 creedmoor on the AR platform, we went to the range and pretty soon, I'll have a 6.5 creed barrel for my AR10
I'm done with 308
Basically the 6.5 is a major improvement over the 308, not a duplication.
Cheers
I'm done with 308
Basically the 6.5 is a major improvement over the 308, not a duplication.
Cheers
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It's funny cause all you guys w your fancy shmancy 6.5 creedmores are gonna be in a world of poo when the zombie apocalypse comes next week
I have both. Go 6.5 CM. You'll never look back. Hornady 140 AMAX's have been good, but I've been having problems with them recently and looking at another source.
Someone posted a chart of what the shooters at the Nationals were using and 6.5cm was the most popular caliber used. Good luck.
Someone posted a chart of what the shooters at the Nationals were using and 6.5cm was the most popular caliber used. Good luck.
How'd that 308 availability work out post-Sandy Hook?
Not very well, it would seem.
Besides, zombies don't require "knockdown power".
Not very well, it would seem.
Besides, zombies don't require "knockdown power".
You've never dealt with vampire zombies, 6.5 just bounces off those fuckers.
OP, I was in the same situation. I have .308s (either bolt or gas) in 16", 18", and 20". I love my 308s and don't see parting with them. I started off feeling as though the 6.5CM was just the latest fad until I started looking at numbers.
I now have a 6.5CM build in the works with Marc at Spartan, and just picked up a 6.5CM GAP 10 upper in the same barrel length. I have a feeling that even though I'll be keeping my .308s, they're not going to get shot near as much.
Match ammo is also quite a bit cheaper for the 6.5CM and appears to be more readily available. Until you step into a wildcat or get serious about handloading, the 6.5 brings a LOT to the table in a factory loading. I sold myself on it as my "intermediate range" option where the .308s are going transonic and underperforming but I don't "need" a Magnum yet.
I now have a 6.5CM build in the works with Marc at Spartan, and just picked up a 6.5CM GAP 10 upper in the same barrel length. I have a feeling that even though I'll be keeping my .308s, they're not going to get shot near as much.
Match ammo is also quite a bit cheaper for the 6.5CM and appears to be more readily available. Until you step into a wildcat or get serious about handloading, the 6.5 brings a LOT to the table in a factory loading. I sold myself on it as my "intermediate range" option where the .308s are going transonic and underperforming but I don't "need" a Magnum yet.
Just shoot em in the eyeballs with a 22, make sure to sprinkle them bullets with holy water and garlic juice though.
I feel sorry for guys with a 308 when they show up to a long range match competing against 6, 6.5 and 7's!
Yeah ...pretty sure there's gonna be a lot more .308 lying around to pick up while trekin around the apocalypse than 6.5 creedmore.
If I were going to do another 6.5 bolt it would be a Creedmoor for one simple reason. Owning one set of nice dies for both bolt and gas. If I chose to do a 6.5 gas the Creedmoor provides more flexibility in adjusting the OAL of the cartridge. With .260 in a gas I can set my OAL to any length as long as it is 2.780". So looking forward you might want to do a 6.5 gas. Well, 6.5 Creedmoor is one logical option... As opposed to .260. That being said, I learned this after and as a result of being invested in to .260.
To your original question. .308 .vs 6.5 Creedmoor.
Just running the numbers in shooter.
0 DA
75 degrees
10MPH 90 degree wind
140gr AMAX @ 2850
300Y 1.3 E / .5 W
600Y 4.2 E / 1.1 W
1000Y 9.6 E / 2.2 W
Transonic @ ~1225y
175gr SMK @ 2700
300Y 1.3 E / .6 W
600Y 4.4 E / 1.5 W
1000Y 11.0 E / 3.0 W
Transonic @ ~1025y
Both have enough energy on target to stop zombies.
To your original question. .308 .vs 6.5 Creedmoor.
Just running the numbers in shooter.
0 DA
75 degrees
10MPH 90 degree wind
140gr AMAX @ 2850
300Y 1.3 E / .5 W
600Y 4.2 E / 1.1 W
1000Y 9.6 E / 2.2 W
Transonic @ ~1225y
175gr SMK @ 2700
300Y 1.3 E / .6 W
600Y 4.4 E / 1.5 W
1000Y 11.0 E / 3.0 W
Transonic @ ~1025y
Both have enough energy on target to stop zombies.
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816 check that Creedmoor data again. They seemed a little off what i have always used and I ran them on JBM. With 140 AMAX at .585 BC, it looks like this at sea level at 50 degrees from 100 yard zero and 2" sight height:
300 - 1 mil, .5 mil
600 - 3.5 mils, 1.1 mils
1000- 8.3 mils, 2.1 mils
300 - 1 mil, .5 mil
600 - 3.5 mils, 1.1 mils
1000- 8.3 mils, 2.1 mils
I'm 2860fps with 140amx
300yd 1mil
500yd 2.5mil
1000yd 8.0 at current temps. 7.9 at warmer temps.
300yd 1mil
500yd 2.5mil
1000yd 8.0 at current temps. 7.9 at warmer temps.
Mine at 2875
140amax litz .584
90* 10mph
300 .9e .5w
600 3.3e 1.0w
1000 8.0e 2.0w
Transonic 1480yrds
140amax litz .584
90* 10mph
300 .9e .5w
600 3.3e 1.0w
1000 8.0e 2.0w
Transonic 1480yrds
Rob. My #'s are wrong. Your's are correct. I had my speed @2685. A mild gas gun load I shot yesterday.
Edit: Why do you do a 2" offset if I might ask?
Edit: Why do you do a 2" offset if I might ask?
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Gotcha. We're on the same page.
I consider the Obama Administration the "Zombie Apocalypse". It is happening now and will continue if the Democrats (who should change their name to the Progressive Party) win another President.
Just to play devils advocate...i have had several creeds, all shot good to great. Very efficient case design, but the fastest i have ran them was 2845 in a 26" barrel and that killed primer pockets in 5 firings. I am getting2785-2805 in two different26" barrels with 42.4 &43.0 h4350. How long are ur barrels that are getting 2880+? If we are going to compare apples to apples, then lets play fair. A 308 with a 26-28" barrel will get 2950-3000 with 155 Palmas or scenars. I can get 2920 in my a3g with Palmas and 2920 in a factory24" savage. Got 10-12 firings on win brass at those speeds. Palma are .455 and scenars are.510ish i think, run those bc at 2975 and see how they stack up. Point being just because one or two guys get 2875+ with creeds on the hide doesn't make it the rule. 2825 seems normal. Also i get 2925 in 24" barrels in 308, that might not be considered the norm either. The creed kicks less and drifts a little less, in my rifles, compared to 308 but its not night and day different. The creed does have a farther subsonic range then my 308, but i can still stretch it out to 1175 in my ao.
Just FYI I was never without, not once...it took me a bit longer to find .308 and the price was about 20 percent higher but I found match .308 every month when I needed it. As I recall though even the peeps who reload had trouble finding ammo and components for every caliber. In fact my 9mm ammo price increased more than my .308 did.
6.5's aren't magic bullets and they certainly don't have half the wind values compares to a 308 unless you're running. 168 at 2500FPS. My confirmed dope at 1k with my 185gr juggernaut load is 8.9mil drop 2.1mil wind. My dope from the 155gr Scenars I uses to run a little over 3000fps from my AE was 7.6mil drop 2.1mil wind. Running the numbers on a 140 hybrid which is arguably the best 6.5mm bullet out there at 2900FPS which is smoking is 7.4mil drop 1.8mil wind according to the calculators in the same conditions as my 308 dope is confirmed in.
So assuming you can run the hybrid to 2900 you get a .3mil wind advantage which isn't quite 15%. I consider that marginal at best. That margin can mean a hit or not but it's not some sort of super bullet that lets you hold dead on in 50mph winds like some people would suggest, you still have to know how to shoot and read wind. With a 6.5 creed you're also going to have extremely short brass life if you push them that hard.
With that said, I'm picking up a 26" 260 tube from AI to try out. If anything short of the 6.5SAUM, 6.5-284, and 6.5x55 can get them running 2900 without destroying brass it's the 260. I plan to run it in a few matches to see how it does there vs. casual shooting like I've done with most of the 6.5's I've had before.
So assuming you can run the hybrid to 2900 you get a .3mil wind advantage which isn't quite 15%. I consider that marginal at best. That margin can mean a hit or not but it's not some sort of super bullet that lets you hold dead on in 50mph winds like some people would suggest, you still have to know how to shoot and read wind. With a 6.5 creed you're also going to have extremely short brass life if you push them that hard.
With that said, I'm picking up a 26" 260 tube from AI to try out. If anything short of the 6.5SAUM, 6.5-284, and 6.5x55 can get them running 2900 without destroying brass it's the 260. I plan to run it in a few matches to see how it does there vs. casual shooting like I've done with most of the 6.5's I've had before.
I quit shooting 175SMKs a while back, now running 155 Bergers at 2885. Here's what they look like under the same conditions, 0 DA, 75 degrees and full value 10mph wind.
300 yards E 3.8 W 1.9
600 yards E 12.8 W 4.3
1000 yards E 30.9 W 8.3
Transonic: Not sure, KAC probably tells me but I can't seem to figure it out this morning.
When I get spanked at matches by guys with 6.5 Whatever, it's often because they are better shooters. OK, and they have better equipment, and they practice more, and they are better shooters, and and and....
1911fan
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I was just using the basic load most .308 shooters come into it shooting compared to a basic Creedmoor load. Yes you can hot rod the .308 up with 155s but you can also bump the Creedmoor up some too. I am shooting the 140s at 2930fps with no pressure but didn't want to use that. In MOA my load is:
300- 3.2 E, 1.6 W
600- 11.2 E, 3.4 W
1000- 26.3 E, 6.5 W
2930 and NO pressure signs...that is some special hornady brass. What powder and barrel length please? Palma guys are shoving the 155s at 3050+. In 4 different creedmoors the fastest i could run was 2845. Anything above 2860ish had ejector marks and cratered primers, blown primers, and hard bolt lift. This was with 43.2-44.0 gr h4350, br2, hornady brass and 140 amax. I can get 105 hybrids to 3350 safely in a 24" 243ai, by safely i mean bolt opened easy(tikka) and i had no injuries. The brass was trashed and just barely had a faint circle from ejector, i consider that too hot. Some might say there was little to no pressure signs, i disagree. I don't have a strain gauge or anyway to measure chamber psi accurately, so when i see speeds 100-200 faster then typical and brass junked in 1-3 firings i think the load is too hot.
Was the speed confirmed by actual 1k drops, sounds impressive.
Yes it has. I also trust my Oehler that gave me the numbers as I have used it for years and it's never been off on anything I have run over it. Different barrels and chamber reamers will give different performance as I am sure you know so I am sure that has something to do with it as it would with any caliber.
i would think 43.5 would put me right at 2900ish with 140amax. i am at 2860 with no pressure at all with 42.9. h4350. my brass has around 8 firings on it.
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I just bought a .308 and finding components is a lot harder than expected. Brownells, cabelas, midway are all of out brass, besides mill surplus. You can find loaded ammo but 6.5 creedmoor is cheaper than 308 most places. If i did it all over again and Remington made a 6.5 creed that was readily available to the public I would've gotten that. The best starting factory gun in creed I could find was going to be a savage, which i regret not buying now.
Lapua brass is everywhere, look on powder valley.
I just had a 6.5 creed built by Greg Young at bugholes.com and it is a tack driver. He is worth a look and only has about a 2 month turn time. You can find bulk 6.5 creed for decent price per round if you are willing to shell out the money up front.
Powder valley is sold out actually. I've seen Lapua but it's a lot more expensive and I like winchester brass personally.
Have a 308, actually two, now Chad is working on my 2nd Creedmoor.
I'm going to list 300 pieces if you want them.
Lapua does cost a little more but when you consider they run 20 firings it's actually cheaper. Not to mention they're ready to load out of the box. No uniforming primer pockets and flash holes or anything else.
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