I've done a lot of searching but have come across more people that have just flat out given up on trying to get them to shoot then I have people that actually found a load that worked. I've got 100 sitting on the bench with Peterson brass coming tomorrow. I've looked at the Warner load sheets and have received some info from Warner direct as a starting point, but does anyone have a load that actually works with these bullets through their gun?
- Thread starter aaronk
- Start date
I’m building a 6.5 right now as well and very interested in the flatline. After watching the snipers hide review of them is seems the best loads were a little hot and making me question weather my trued r700 action will work or if I need to invest in a defiance.
I appreciate the advice, I don’t have loads yet. I’m very new to the precision rifle game and my 6.5 build was gonna use the action from my 700 police in .308. I don’t have the means to reload myself so I considered sending the completed 6.5 to copper creek for a load develop. I was told an aftermarket action was better for hot loads is the only reason I considered it. I’m a newb so any and all advice is well appreciated
Well, such a generalized statement is complete bullshit without any design and testing data to back it up.
700 is fine, a bit hot in 95 degree weather in full sun is one thing, my other loads were not hot but I went with the fastest vs going back to the next accuracy node.
You don't have to push them as hard as I did, mainly because I knew I was going to shoot them at 1 mile
You don't have to push them as hard as I did, mainly because I knew I was going to shoot them at 1 mile
Since my resources for reloading are limited is copper creek a good idea?
yes
Going from not knowing anything about a subject to the advanced level in one jump is never a good idea. So yes, pay the pros to do it for you.
It takes a fair bit of reloading knowledge and experience to start going above max loads recommended in reloading manuals.
Thanks a lot guys, kept me from making costly mistakes.
I've done some initial development with the Flatlines. Rifle is a stock Savage 10BA Stealth with AAC SDN-6 can. It shoots a solid 0.5 - 0.6moa with factory Hornady 140g ELD Match.
Here's my data so far on the Flatlines:
Ladder Test with H4895:
Lapua brass
CCI BR4 primers
Loaded .030 off lands
38.0 g - 2,960 fps
38.2 - 3,024
38.4 - 3,042
38.6 - 3,054
38.8 - 3,090
39.0 - 3,087
39.2 - 3,093
39.4 - 3,105
39.6 - 3,115
39.8 - 3,124
There was a node around 39.0g so that's where I loaded in order to play with seating depth. Things were looking good so far...
Warner recommends seating .025 max but based on my ladder test I loaded .030 and .020. Group results are below - shot at 200 yards.
39.0g H4895 seating .030 off:
39.0g H4895 seated .020 off. Green arrow at the aiming point on this one since it was such a huge group! I thought I had a keyhole there, but it was just the backing board ripping paper.
At this point I'm going to try and seat at .040 and if that doesn't close up that group from .030 any then I'll try another powder. At .010 the drive band is just about right at my case neck opening. Told myself I'd play around with 100 bullets I initially purchased and if I can't find something around 1/2 MOA at around 3100 fps then I'm calling it quits.
Here's my data so far on the Flatlines:
Ladder Test with H4895:
Lapua brass
CCI BR4 primers
Loaded .030 off lands
38.0 g - 2,960 fps
38.2 - 3,024
38.4 - 3,042
38.6 - 3,054
38.8 - 3,090
39.0 - 3,087
39.2 - 3,093
39.4 - 3,105
39.6 - 3,115
39.8 - 3,124
There was a node around 39.0g so that's where I loaded in order to play with seating depth. Things were looking good so far...
Warner recommends seating .025 max but based on my ladder test I loaded .030 and .020. Group results are below - shot at 200 yards.
39.0g H4895 seating .030 off:
39.0g H4895 seated .020 off. Green arrow at the aiming point on this one since it was such a huge group! I thought I had a keyhole there, but it was just the backing board ripping paper.
At this point I'm going to try and seat at .040 and if that doesn't close up that group from .030 any then I'll try another powder. At .010 the drive band is just about right at my case neck opening. Told myself I'd play around with 100 bullets I initially purchased and if I can't find something around 1/2 MOA at around 3100 fps then I'm calling it quits.
Hey Frank, when you loaded these how did you set your seating depth? If I were to set them .02 off the lands the press would only be seating them .06. The tapered tail on the bullet doesn’t become .264” until about 1/3 of the way up from the base. So there is plenty of bullet in the case but hardly any that is touching the case mouth. It’s a criterion barrel. I attached a pic of a 121 vs a 140 to show a comparison of where each bullet becomes .264”. Hope this makes sense. Thanks in advance.
...that would be one reason Alan recommends well LESS than the normal CM free bore for these bullets. The 0.255" tail almost undoubtedly solves any brass donut issues, and I am guessing it helps to maintain laminar flow of air down to the VERY small base, but you're right that it does not do any favors in long FB chambers, or ones that are worn.
Seating so little of the bearing surface can also cause problems with concentricity of loaded rounds. I don't know whether that issue would have more or less effect on these solids versus a conventional bullet, but I would GUESS more.
Seating so little of the bearing surface can also cause problems with concentricity of loaded rounds. I don't know whether that issue would have more or less effect on these solids versus a conventional bullet, but I would GUESS more.
Mine are literally dropping .4” into the case before stopping. Is this normal for this bullet? Case size is fine.
Yes - normal. From my experience a factory rifle is going to have quite a bit of freebore, so I'm not surprised so little of the bearing surface is actually seated in the case in my instance. Part of why I'm curious to try jumping these a little more.
In any case, what I'm trying to do with these through a factory Savage is akin to putting race fuel in a Honda and expecting to get a race car out of it, but I thought it would be a fun experiment.
In any case, what I'm trying to do with these through a factory Savage is akin to putting race fuel in a Honda and expecting to get a race car out of it, but I thought it would be a fun experiment.
It still shows the bullet not reaching .264 until .4” from the base! I’m just looking to make sure this is the norm for these bullets and that I didn’t somehow get something out of spec!
I am pushing them through a criterion. Not super high end but not a Honda!!
You need to understand the Warners. They don't DO out of spec. I'd be very surprised to hear if ANY bullet got shipped out of there that was materially outside spec.
I could wax on about the quality of their machining on rear sights (waaaayyyyy better than probably any scope you own), but I won't.
I'll just say that you have $1.25 bullets, and by dammit they are made like one. Virtually flawless.
That a exactly what I would assume just checking to make sure the bullet dropping .4” before making contact with the case is normal. It doesn’t seem normal but I understand these are not normal bullets. I have emailed warner to ask if this is part of the design. Their first response was that they only make one 6.5 bullet so what I have must be correct. I followed up to get a more specific answer as to if the bullet Is designed to not reach .264” until .4” from the tail. Waiting on a response on that one. I’m guessing it is meant to be that way I just want to make sure before starting to try to develop them.
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I am running the 121 gr flatline with varget in peterson brass. So far it has been good for me. I have loaded the flatline in prime cases and the peterson cases. Below is what i have found.
Using a ruger rpr with a bartlien 26" barrel with a progressive twist starting at 1:8.5 finishing at 1:7.5 twist shooting with a supressor.
I tested the case capacity of the prime brass vs the peterson (since first time using peterson).
The result was that not only did the peterson brass weight in at 14.2 grains heavier 168.4 for the peterson and 154.2 for the prime. The internal volume of the peterson brass was 3% less so i started my peterson load at .8 grains less.
Load was 121 gr flat line over 42.4 gr of varget in prime brass with cci br-2 primers = 0.125 (4) shot group at 100 yards and a vel. 3043 fps
Got to shoot these at 800 yards to test dope and was within 1.5" of center using 3.8 mils ( was 1.5" high). Zero was 1.375" high at 100.
Load was 121 gr flat line over 41.6 gr of varget in peterson brass with cci br-2 primers group was sub 3/8 at 100 yards vel 3044 fps i loaded all these rounds at coal of 2.824 / ogive 2.130 this fyi is a 0.045 jump in my bartlein barrel.
Sd on all rounds tested was between 2.5 and 3 fps used a chrony at 6 feet from end of supressor.
**** Here comes the warning this load at 800 feet above sea level was temp was mid to upper 30's and hunidity in the 40% range on both the prime and the peterosn brass i had ejector button marks on the head and flat primers. Bolt lift was still normal but this load is getting warm*** i would start lower and work up please.
For what it is worth i tried these with everything from 4166, h4350 and varget in my factory barrel and the shot a shotgun pattern my factory barrel hated these and it will hold my normal load 140 gr nosler rdf with h4350 at .375 5 shot groups all day long. And when i say shotgun group i am not being fair to the shotgun they where all over an 8.5" by 11" pieces of paper and some not on it at 100 yards.
See picture was the group with the prime brass at 100 yards the 5th shot was not in the group and the 2 guys with me where having a hard time believing that the 1st (4) that close so i said watch this held a little low and boom 2nd hole in the paper. They do not question this rifle of the load anymore lol.
Using a ruger rpr with a bartlien 26" barrel with a progressive twist starting at 1:8.5 finishing at 1:7.5 twist shooting with a supressor.
I tested the case capacity of the prime brass vs the peterson (since first time using peterson).
The result was that not only did the peterson brass weight in at 14.2 grains heavier 168.4 for the peterson and 154.2 for the prime. The internal volume of the peterson brass was 3% less so i started my peterson load at .8 grains less.
Load was 121 gr flat line over 42.4 gr of varget in prime brass with cci br-2 primers = 0.125 (4) shot group at 100 yards and a vel. 3043 fps
Got to shoot these at 800 yards to test dope and was within 1.5" of center using 3.8 mils ( was 1.5" high). Zero was 1.375" high at 100.
Load was 121 gr flat line over 41.6 gr of varget in peterson brass with cci br-2 primers group was sub 3/8 at 100 yards vel 3044 fps i loaded all these rounds at coal of 2.824 / ogive 2.130 this fyi is a 0.045 jump in my bartlein barrel.
Sd on all rounds tested was between 2.5 and 3 fps used a chrony at 6 feet from end of supressor.
**** Here comes the warning this load at 800 feet above sea level was temp was mid to upper 30's and hunidity in the 40% range on both the prime and the peterosn brass i had ejector button marks on the head and flat primers. Bolt lift was still normal but this load is getting warm*** i would start lower and work up please.
For what it is worth i tried these with everything from 4166, h4350 and varget in my factory barrel and the shot a shotgun pattern my factory barrel hated these and it will hold my normal load 140 gr nosler rdf with h4350 at .375 5 shot groups all day long. And when i say shotgun group i am not being fair to the shotgun they where all over an 8.5" by 11" pieces of paper and some not on it at 100 yards.
See picture was the group with the prime brass at 100 yards the 5th shot was not in the group and the 2 guys with me where having a hard time believing that the 1st (4) that close so i said watch this held a little low and boom 2nd hole in the paper. They do not question this rifle of the load anymore lol.
Attachments
I seated to mag length 2.830"
That was specifically requested
That was specifically requested
Thanks for all of the details. What was your seating depth and distance from the lands on the good load? Curious is these are capable of shooting well with a large jump.
Thanks Frank. What kind of jump did you have with that length?
They can jump. Better if not, but I'd almost guarantee the Warners are not stupid. Even in virgin condition, the freebore of a lot of these chambers is WAY too long to get a lathe turned bullet out to the lands and still preserve a usable profile for ELR. So if they were to have a marketable product...
I'm no Frank, but I will say that if you are trimming to 1.910", and the 121 is seated to 2.830" COAL, you're sitting pretty close to 0.125" of bearing surface out of the neck.
Know how much free bore Alan mentioned to me?
0.125"
I'm no Frank, but I will say that if you are trimming to 1.910", and the 121 is seated to 2.830" COAL, you're sitting pretty close to 0.125" of bearing surface out of the neck.
Know how much free bore Alan mentioned to me?
0.125"
10 4 that should be right where mine will sit so we’ll see how they like it. I’ve got varget and RL17 on hand hopefully one of those will make them shoot. Thanks for the info!
On both loads cases where trimmed and cham. At 1.910 and seating depth was coal 2.824 and to ogive was 2.130 that left me a jump of 0.045.
FYI in my factory barrel i was jumping over like 0.110 to 0.105
FYI in my factory barrel i was jumping over like 0.110 to 0.105
I will toss in my experience with the 121s. I shoot a bartlein 1:8 24" barrel. Other bullets shoot great using H4350. I was unable to make the 121s work right.
I contacted the folks at Warner and they were really helpful. They told me a couple things that I will share so others can avoid wasting time and money like I did.
Powders:
"The powders we list in our starting load recipes are listed by burn rate. The closer to the top you are, the faster the powder, so it is best to start with something nearer to the top of the list. "
Jump:
" Most of the Flatlines are not jump sensitive, although we do not recommend jumping more than a caliber in length. The 121's are a bit more finicky and seem to like less jump. The rule that seems to be coming about is the closer you can get to the lands, the better they will perform. "
" If your 6.5 is chambered for the larger 140's, you may never get them close enough to the lands to group adequately on target (assuming there is no leakage), and still seat them sufficiently in the case neck."
Slower powders like H4350 won't work with Flatlines in 6.5CM. Since I have a bunch of Varget I am going to try that. They suggested a starting load of 38.5.
I will post some results when I have them.
I contacted the folks at Warner and they were really helpful. They told me a couple things that I will share so others can avoid wasting time and money like I did.
Powders:
"The powders we list in our starting load recipes are listed by burn rate. The closer to the top you are, the faster the powder, so it is best to start with something nearer to the top of the list. "
Jump:
" Most of the Flatlines are not jump sensitive, although we do not recommend jumping more than a caliber in length. The 121's are a bit more finicky and seem to like less jump. The rule that seems to be coming about is the closer you can get to the lands, the better they will perform. "
" If your 6.5 is chambered for the larger 140's, you may never get them close enough to the lands to group adequately on target (assuming there is no leakage), and still seat them sufficiently in the case neck."
Slower powders like H4350 won't work with Flatlines in 6.5CM. Since I have a bunch of Varget I am going to try that. They suggested a starting load of 38.5.
I will post some results when I have them.
My minimum jump is going to be .06 so hopefully I can make that work. I really want to make these things shoot to reach out to a mile. Hoping to get out tomorrow to try them out.
I'd be curious to see what these would do out of a 6.5 saum.
I have 100 on the bench, I want to try them in one of my .260s and in my 6.5 saum. I need to load some up so I can see what they will do if the weather ever straightens up.
I sold a partial box of these to a friend running an RPR with a Benchmark barrel to see if the he could get them to group. Here's the results:
IMR 4166
Node at 41.4g
3,100 fps
.015 off lands
2.22 to ogive on this particular gun/barrel
A huge step up in barrel quality (this was still a prefit barrel), but shot like crap. Based on some of the recent feedback in this thread we'll try seating deeper and see what happens.
IMR 4166
Node at 41.4g
3,100 fps
.015 off lands
2.22 to ogive on this particular gun/barrel
A huge step up in barrel quality (this was still a prefit barrel), but shot like crap. Based on some of the recent feedback in this thread we'll try seating deeper and see what happens.
Anyone having experience in PVA tikka prefit 6.5 CM.? Hoping to run these and 130 hybrid....
I have Varget, re26, and 4350. Is Varget best choice of what I have?
I have Varget, re26, and 4350. Is Varget best choice of what I have?
So everything I tried shot like crap. I got pissed and decided to get creative and loaded a few to single feed and sit .020 off. Mind you they were only seated about .005 into the case. I put a small crimp on them just to secure them a bit more. Well they didn’t shoot great but .9” was much better than the 2.5” I was getting. This was with 45gr of RL17. It was def hot at 3185fps and a little heavy bolt so I’d advise to test your own and work up. I think I’ll make another tweak and hope these will get me to a mile next month when I get the chance. Do we think I should try seated .005 in the case without the crimp or am I asking for dented brass?
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Mine shot like crap in 3 different barrels, one being a cut barrel. best repeatable groups was .75 at .060” off the lands. but groups went to crap at long range. I plan on building a 6.5s.s., So I’ll keep the rest of mine to see if they have to run 3300-3400 to work in my setups. This is with a creedmoor running speeds inline with Warner’s loads. G/L with the 121. I’ve shot the 180g 30 cal and 256 338 with excellent results.
Well so muchfor that. Went back out with some of the same and some tweaks and they all were trash. The .9” group must have just been luck. I guess I’ll crank up the 140s and see if I can chuck them a mile lol.
I'm loading up 25 to play with in the 260, they will be jumping .015" and the oal is 2.90". I see that Frank used 43 grains of varget so I'm starting at 41 and working up from there in 1/2 grain increments to see where I will see pressure signs. I will load 5 of each charge and pull them down if they get too hot.
zackm is shooting tiny groups with the 121s...i didnt try it but after talking to him i think the 121s like a lotta jump...i think he said he was .045 off the lands...but i agree with you im not going to chase loads with $1.15 bullets.
** UPDATE **
Got to get my 6.5 creed with 122 gr solids to 1185 yards this weekend with a 100 yard 0
Target size 500 yards 4” circle = 1.6 mils
Target size 800 yards 6” circle = 3.9 mils
Target size 1185 yards 14” sq. = 7.7 mils
Running at 3109 FPS
7-8 mph full valve wind
500 = .4 mils left dialed
800 = .6 mils left dialed
1185 = 1.3 mils left dialed
(Rifle is a Ruger RPR with Bartlein 26” barrel 5r rifling, gain twist 8.5 to 7.5.)
(Load is 41.6 gr. Varget in Peterson virgin brass CCI BR-2 primer and bullet set at 0.050 off lands)
** I have used prime brass but have to increase charge by 0.8 grains to get same vel. **
All my groups on steel were ½ to ¾” MOA
This was flatter and less drift than my 338 LM running 285 gr ELD-M at 2830 fps (9.2 mils elv. & 1.3 left wind dialed) and my dads 300 Win. mag running 215 gr Berger hyb at 2925 fps.(9.1 mils elv. & 1.4 mils wind dialed) It also was 2.5 mils flatter at 1185 yards and .5 mils less wind drift than my “regular” 140 gr RDF at 2850 fps with the same rifle I shot the 122’s. like frank said that could / would be a game changer in match especially when you can go from shooting one to the other and back again without any “seasoning” or “cleaning” the barrel.
Got to get my 6.5 creed with 122 gr solids to 1185 yards this weekend with a 100 yard 0
Target size 500 yards 4” circle = 1.6 mils
Target size 800 yards 6” circle = 3.9 mils
Target size 1185 yards 14” sq. = 7.7 mils
Running at 3109 FPS
7-8 mph full valve wind
500 = .4 mils left dialed
800 = .6 mils left dialed
1185 = 1.3 mils left dialed
(Rifle is a Ruger RPR with Bartlein 26” barrel 5r rifling, gain twist 8.5 to 7.5.)
(Load is 41.6 gr. Varget in Peterson virgin brass CCI BR-2 primer and bullet set at 0.050 off lands)
** I have used prime brass but have to increase charge by 0.8 grains to get same vel. **
All my groups on steel were ½ to ¾” MOA
This was flatter and less drift than my 338 LM running 285 gr ELD-M at 2830 fps (9.2 mils elv. & 1.3 left wind dialed) and my dads 300 Win. mag running 215 gr Berger hyb at 2925 fps.(9.1 mils elv. & 1.4 mils wind dialed) It also was 2.5 mils flatter at 1185 yards and .5 mils less wind drift than my “regular” 140 gr RDF at 2850 fps with the same rifle I shot the 122’s. like frank said that could / would be a game changer in match especially when you can go from shooting one to the other and back again without any “seasoning” or “cleaning” the barrel.
That's good information Zack. I have been wondering about and considering a gain twist for this use and it's good to see the results that you are getting. Based upon those results, what BC are you using for the 122s to get good drops in your ballistic calculator?
Zackm;
What reamer, free bore on your gain twist? Have you had success with any other bullet in that barrel or just dedicated to 122?
What reamer, free bore on your gain twist? Have you had success with any other bullet in that barrel or just dedicated to 122?
I believe that he said he also shoots 140g RDFs interchangeably in that barrel. Read this paragraph:
Timetoshoot - As lash said I do interchange 140 gr RDF and sometimes Berger VLD hunting 140 gr bullets in this barrel. Bartlein uses a Standard SAAMI reamer as far as free bore goes it is not a lot quite a bit less than in my factory Ruger RPR barrel.
lash - I use a G7 B.C. in my JMB Ballistic AE Calculator of 0.350 this gets me within .1 mil all the way to 1185. and I give the barrel twist rate as a right hand 1:7.5 twist rate. my alt. is around 1100 feet above sea level also but I normally set my app. to let barometric PSI to be absolute.
lash - I use a G7 B.C. in my JMB Ballistic AE Calculator of 0.350 this gets me within .1 mil all the way to 1185. and I give the barrel twist rate as a right hand 1:7.5 twist rate. my alt. is around 1100 feet above sea level also but I normally set my app. to let barometric PSI to be absolute.
yeah, Flatlines certainly allow non-mag cartridges to run, or out run, mag cartridges shooting lead swaged bullets. Nice work on this work up.
One question: how was spotting the splash and impacts of these bullets especially at the 1100+ target?
