Omg how did I not see this coming. Someone says 6.5g and someone says bolts break. That's a tired out 6.5 v 6.8 argument. 6.5 and 6.8 are for 99.9% of users in na hunting or target (6.5) rounds. 5.56 is the self defense round. I still would like anyone who has shot a 155 Palma bullet out of a 300aac at max level su per sonic speeds to post what they havery gotten velocity wise. Because obviously a 230 or 240 great 30 call subsonic will have more energy than a 6.5 160 subsonic. I guess no one has tried the 300aac for long range but if someone did I think people would be fairly surprised what they can do and imo could outperform the 5.56 , run with the 6.8 and only be bested by the 6.5 velocity and eery wise past 600 yards. Again my 2 cents and I'd like to learn from others who have tried new things then just rehash the 6.5 v 6.8 lame old debate.
- Thread starter Flex686
- Start date
Yeah you write a page of shit talking and bullshit then think by signing off with "I bet that won't stop it either" to try and justify it and end the argument... good luck with that hypocrite. Feel free to swallow your own self thought and avoid the thread.
And here's the reality... You talk about me defending the 300 BLK and make me out like I'm on the kool aid even though I never even said anything bad about the Grendel, but here you are calling bullshit on others and trying to invalidate everyone else's experience with your beloved cartridge and what's that... Your on the Grendel board? Who would have thought... You're a fucking fan boy.
Easily sub 4.5 pound? Really? Well then Einstein, why don't you throw that shit on a scale, take a pic and post it? Surely this isn't internet fodder is it? Curious if you plan to actually throw a magazine in it, maybe even one with ammunition. Might you have an optic and mount on that? Hmm? Sub 4.5 lbs? Excited to see that.
I build my own shit, been doing so for quite some time and for many on this forum. I use the appropriate parts that are conducive to user requirements (either my own or those that ask me for help) which you'll understand when you finish your project. When you do get your first rig built why don't you post up pics of your groups and the weight of your rifle (with optic, with mag).
People aren't fucking idiots around here my friend. If you want to spout off like some tough fuck, feel free. But I'd suggest you put up some tangible evidence speaking to your points if you want to be taken seriously. Oh, and you're saying you can do anything lighter with an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel than I can with an AR10?
Well then, challenge accepted!!!! I'll build me a little sumpin sumpin in an AR10 platform that outperforms your 6.5G and does so in a lighter package. You name the range, energy output, accuracy thresholds and weigh your rig on a scale with optic. I'll do the same. Good luck my friend...
And here's my Grendel compared to my .338 Fed. Hell, even my 11.5 is over 7 lbs, but I guess that KMR and the 7 oz stock and all are some of the heaviest out there....
Food for thought...
If you're dead you obviously don't know you're dead. It is difficult only for those around you. It's the same when you're stupid (hint).
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6.8spc. And 300. Lol. I actually found 6.8 spec at academy.
Seriously, what is the purpose? Long range? Simple. Not long range. Then that is simple. 300. Why? Because finding reliable mags is easy.
Seriously, what is the purpose? Long range? Simple. Not long range. Then that is simple. 300. Why? Because finding reliable mags is easy.
What are the main parts Jason that can Make a 6.5 Creedmoor as light or lighter than a grendel? I have a grendel and luv it but if I could have a Creedmoor for less weight I would do that in a heartbeat as I think most grendel users would so please let me know. I always thought with out optic or magazine it's not to hard to build a 5 lbs ar15 bUT to do that in an ar 10 wouldn't get under 7 lbs, the lightest factory ar10 I know is the cmmg ar10 which weighs 7 lbs and a half or quarter.....to get it under 7 u would need a carbon fiber hand guard and a jp low mass bolt I thought. That would get u to 7 but an ar15 with carbon fiber hand guard and jp low mass bolt can get u under 5lbs. I would luv a 5 lbs base weight ar10 just didn't think it was possible.
The butthurt is really starting to flow now.LOL
-Nick- said:
So am I supposed to infer that you are some gifted industry insider? Not buying it for certain.LOL Either way, I never said that the 300Blk wasn't popular. I know it is, and nobidy ever said anything contrary. But I doubt you have a clue what actual 6.5 G numbers are either. At the most you can probably deduce that 6.5 is less popular because it's hard to get, and far less advertised/made. No point of contention there. The issue is your magical prognostication that it's somehow dying or going away. You're "shit talking", and getting madder by the minute.LOL
-Nick- said:
I never said you said it was "poor". You are bandying about quite the fortune telling regarding it's future though. My reading comprehension is fine. I realize you got mad at Ledzep. Instead of addressing him, you launched into your campaign about the 6.5 instead. I commented that he was being inflammatory as well. Twice. Once in a reply to him as well.
"Fervor over 'my' grendel"? LOL I like it, but I hardly "own" it. That's what I mean by these koolaid arguments. I'm definitely not being disingenuous.
Nope, no dictionary necessary. Since you know the numbers for Grendel ammo production, please enlighten me. I'd be interested to know. Hornady still makes periodic runs of it as they can alot time for. They just made a run not too long ago. I'm sure they are too busy getting caught up on the bigger sellers to allot more runs yet. Wolf steel case is in route to AA to go on sale soon at $7.99 a box according to Bill Alexander (in a post this evening). The Wolf Gold (Prvi Partizan) has been relatively AWOL, but I have no idea why besides guessing. Ayone can guess, but we don't actually "know". AA is slow, but loading it as fast as they can. Precision Firearms is loading commercial Grendel as well. Nosler just brought Grendel brass, I have no idea what their intent is. There are other rumors as well, but those don't count.-Nick- said:
Nope. No need to try again. You are still missing what he meant by it. None of those large frame rounds fit in an AR15 magwell, let alone double stacking while doing it. That was the entire point. The gist of his pointing it out was that if the shooter wanted to stick to a smaller AR15 platform, then the Grendel offered good performance in that envelope. The reference to it running with some .308 rounds at distance was to illustrate it's "high gas mileage". Nothing more. It's still an apt comparison when taken within the confines of what was meant. I don't typically bring that up, because some folks don't seem to understand it.-Nick- said:
Pretty much see above. If you want something similar (in some limited ways) to an AR10, but want it to double stack in an AR15, then the Grendel is worth at least looking at. Motard?LOL "Hypocrite much"? No, not at all. Get misunderstood much? Certainly.LOL-Nick- said:
I do order from JSC, Sports South, Ellet Brothers and others. My buddy has a store, and another friend used to. I don't order for stores though, I order for myself and others, so I do see what is listed in wholesale. Regardless, that isn't what you posted. You said:-Nick- said:
-Nick- said:
My original reply to that still stands. My area is hardly devoid of retail stores, and multiple 77SMK loads aren't on "just about any retail store's shelf" in my area. Your statement is factually incorrect. At least in my area. It is more available than Grendel on the shelf, but I never said anything to the contrary. Straw argument. The fact is you are mad, and are trying really hard to steer anything you can in to "winning" some kind 6.5 vs. anything argument.
By "brand", I was referring to brand or flavor of koolaid. In your case it's 300Blk. I wasn't trying to incite you. You certainly did seem to get that way though.LOL-Nick- said:
I might have a smidgen of grey on me, but not black (you are jostling so hard it's difficult not to get smudged). I'm not "attacking" the 300Blk at all. I think it's kind of neat. I don't own one, but have no angst against it either.LOL
Yet again, I never defended him, I also said he was being inflammatory. I took issue with what I perceived to be your mischaracterization of the Grendel. I was fine with your countering his opinion of the 300Blk. Instead of going after him, you went unfairly after the Grendel instead. Hence my posts.-Nick- said:
There was no "shit talking", and "bullshit". You think I'm a "hypocrite", and I'm pretty sure you didn't understand my posts at all. My bit about the 40 watt plasma rifle was intended to point out that people constantly argue about what caliber or cartridge is "best", but the arguing never stops. I think you (and myself, along with others all over the world) are proving that quite right. I'll disregard the rest of the vitriol. I have pretty good nomex. It doesn't sway me much one way or the other.
Ohhh, you burn me. To think that someone who likes and builds Grendels (and maybe learned a bit about them) participates in the Grendel board. I hope it's not too shocking that I'm on Arfcom as well.LOL
"You're a fucking fan boy." That's hilarious!
I'm rapidly remembering why I normally skip the drama here.Easily sub 4.5 pound? Really? Well then Einstein, why don't you throw that shit on a scale, take a pic and post it? Surely this isn't internet fodder is it? Curious if you plan to actually throw a magazine in it, maybe even one with ammunition. Might you have an optic and mount on that? Hmm? Sub 4.5 lbs? Excited to see that.
I build my own shit, been doing so for quite some time and for many on this forum. I use the appropriate parts that are conducive to user requirements (either my own or those that ask me for help) which you'll understand when you finish your project. When you do get your first rig built why don't you post up pics of your groups and the weight of your rifle (with optic, with mag).
People aren't fucking idiots around here my friend. If you want to spout off like some tough fuck, feel free. But I'd suggest you put up some tangible evidence speaking to your points if you want to be taken seriously. Oh, and you're saying you can do anything lighter with an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel than I can with an AR10?
Well then, challenge accepted!!!! I'll build me a little sumpin sumpin in an AR10 platform that outperforms your 6.5G and does so in a lighter package. You name the range, energy output, accuracy thresholds and weigh your rig on a scale with optic. I'll do the same. Good luck my friend...
And here's my Grendel compared to my .338 Fed. Hell, even my 11.5 is over 7 lbs, but I guess that KMR and the 7 oz stock and all are some of the heaviest out there....
Food for thought...
If you're dead you obviously don't know you're dead. It is difficult only for those around you. It's the same when you're stupid (hint).
I'm talking about a SBR, not a long range rig. You did recall this is a thread about .300Blk and 6.5G right? Perhaps you thought the OP was wanting to build a long range 300Blk rig for distance? You also mentioned your 12" .308....?
Ditch the dick wagging and name calling a sec. ("Einstein", "If you want to spout off like some tough fuck", etc., etc., etc.) and I'll clarify. Sheesh.
1.) Who ever said they'd have equal performance (AR10 vs. AR15)? Your assumptions went forward in leaps and bounds there. You said: "once you hit 16" and up in barrel length you're running into AR-10 weights.". I still don't understand how you think a 16" AR15 will weigh the same as an AR10? If they are given equal treatment weight-wise then please explain how. I'm all ears, really, and I'm not being a smartass.
2.) Mags and optics? Those aren't the weight of the rifle to me. Do your .308 mags weigh less? How about the scope? It has no idea what receiver you bolted it or levered it on. Maybe you have a different definition of rifle weight. I'm talking just the rifle. Not the mudflaps, kickstands, curb feelers, and everything else folks bolt on to it.
3.) Throw it on a scale? I fully intend to.LOL If it isn't sub 4.5, I'll be pretty pissed for what I'm going to be spending. There are many threads with posted weights and scale shots on Arf.
4.5 is for the rifle itself, and I'll be using a Balios-Lite receiver set, Ti bolt carrier (either Boomfab or Spike's), de-weighted buffer, adjustable gas, KMR rail with Al nut, Ti castle nut and pins, etc. It had damn sure better be sub 4.5#. Guys are getting lightweight builds under that with 16" barrels. I'm only going to be using a 12.5". That doesn't count accessories such as mags, sling, etc. Just some Spike's Tactical micro sights. With optic (Leupold VX-R Patrol @ 11.5 oz. in an Aero Precision mount @ 2.98 oz.) and with a light weight suppressor (hopefully circa 12 ounce), I hope to be at a hunting weight of less tahn 6.5. The closer to 6 even the better. I won't know how much wiggle room I'll have until I can get a barel weight definitively pinned down.
Getting mad or trying to piss me off won't change anything, but perhaps we aren't on the same wavelength somewhere, and I'm completely misunderstanding you.
Without comparing ballistic performance (I never once said the 6.5G was equal to the AR10 cartridges in available horsepower!LOL)------ What about an AR15 makes it as heavy as an AR10 in any equal barrel length or configuration? That's what I'm talking about. People specifically pick the AR15 platform in a number of applications specifically because it can be light weight. If you know something that changes that equation (I don't know how), then I'm all ears for any schooling you may care to dish out.
Thank you. That is exactly what I'm getting at. You worded it much better than I did. I must sound like a smartass over here or something.
If you read and remember more carefully, you will recall that our rifle's broken bolts were Les Baer bolts, however, in discussing this on the Grendel forum, OTHER users reported problems with broken Alexander Arms bolts, though broken Les Baer bolts were reported more frequently (as I stated above). As I stated, the rifle currently has an Alexander Arms bolt checked and installed. Our rifle is NOT chambered LBC. Our rifle was built post-SAAMI by a reputable and honest gunsmith, well represented here, who carefully rechecked the rifle with the Alexander Arms bolt installed after the bolt problems, reporting no defects.
Instead of getting hysterical, just look at the Grendel bolt face and compare the proportions to a 5.56x45mm bolt. It doesn't take an engineering degree to see that the bolts (and magazines) are the weak link in the Grendel system. You can flex and call that "B.S." if you want. Let each man decide for himself.
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Btw... I still haven't said anything negative about the 6.5 Grendel despite you at every corner trying to paint me out like the guy who attacked the catridge in a smear "campaign". Again since I notice you avoid it in every fucking post... Show me where I said anything bad about the Grendel.
Ohhh, you burn me. To think that someone who likes and builds Grendels (and maybe learned a bit about them) participates in the Grendel board. I hope it's not too shocking that I'm on Arfcom as well.LOL
"You're a fucking fan boy." That's hilarious!
You're still going on the presumption that I don't know anything about the Grendel. You're also presuming that my reference to the Board is negative of the board itself. Don't worry though... I'm a member of barfcom as well since they have an equipment exchange.
Still haven't said anything negative about the Grendel... keep trying though.
Yeah you don't talk shit at all...
You gotta love all the drama, but seriously in a year or two time I think you probably see the Dpms g2 pattern become the defacto standard for large frame ARs. DPMS will be ramped up with parts and other chamberings, Harrison will be ramped up with the 12, and there will probably be others entering the fray with uppers and parts. When this happens whether it's a year from now or two, you will be able to just get a full on 260 or 6.5 creed in an ar15 weight package. Why even bother with a Grendel or 6.8 at that point? Are you really gonna let the cost of a Dpms lower keep you tied a 2.295 oal? You will probably spend that much just on new mags trying to get a bit more performance out of a Grendel. The Grendel et al and the 6.8 are great for what they are, but what they are are a compromise to allow the use of ar15 mags, and that is no longer a requirement. So instead of venting all This venom in support your favorite soon to be obsolete cartridge why not use the energy to encourage the industry to standardize on the Dpms pattern lower, standardize on barrel nuts and all the other parts to turn the large frame ar into what the small frame is: standardized. From there it's nothing but fun, but unfortunately most of the fanboys and their forums are going to have to find something new to talk about or risk becoming irrelevant. One mans opinion I'm sure you have one too
dats sum funny chit rite dar...
Oh, I know what's going on now. I've seen this before.
Sure you do... Lol
What is the topic about again?
Holy mother of god. This is ARFCOM at its finest.
I already addressed the SBR issue in an earlier post as well as the question posed by the OP. Comments above and beyond those were based on posts from other individuals.
I get your whole super featherweight adventure, but you're fixation on the mere aspect of weight isn't going to be what you think it will. You're stating that you want to take a cartridge designed to enable long range accuracy in a platform that is traditionally lighter and more comfortable to shoot than the AR10 alternatives, but effectively render all those advantages moot by reducing velocity. Why? Especially if hunting is your intended use? I used a shorty 308 as a reference point to compare what little value a 12.5" Grendel would have in the context of your stated intentions (hunting). That's fantastic that you can drop 800 fpe at 400 yards with a 12.5" Grendel. I can drop 1150 at that range with my 12" 308 and do so with very similar elevation adjustments. I don't hit 800 fpe until after 600 yds. Good stuff.
You're a classic example of people who sit on the couch looking at iSnipe all day dreaming up some shit that seems to make sense rather than actually shooting. If you're thinking that shooting 123s at 2350fps from a 12.5" with a titanium carrier and ULW buffer you're going to find that your rig is going to bitch slap you every time you pull the trigger. What about lock time? Nice low weight reciprocating mass, but how fast is that going to be rocketing into your buffer tube? Are you accounting for the velocity with which you're BCG will be traveling? That will certainly have an effect on lock time, recoil and muzzle rise.
I'd definitely be interested to see how long your 12 ounce titanium can lasts running hot 123gr loads through a 12.5 tube. Thing is going to be louder that hell with carbine gas and a 12.5" barrel running those type of loads. You'd be better off with 107s or 108s.
It's not the idea of a 6.5G in an SBR that irks me. As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I think it's intriguing to an extent and under the appropriate circumstances. It's the fixation on such an arbitrary thing like weight while seeing no mention of performance aspects that seem a little fucked up. That's reminiscent of one who shoots little, has next to zero practical experience with rifles, and considers only data on paper or the computer to be the answer to all problems. That ain't how it is.
Yes, I can build an AR10 in any caliber that can do ANYTHING the Grendel can do but it'll be hella shorter and practically speaking within a pound of that Grendel that can match performance characteristics of the AR10. For example, it takes an 18" 6.5G to get my 12" 308 at the ranges referenced above. It all depends on what you're personally willing to sacrifice. I choose to buy a gym membership resulting in my being able to easily carry a whole 7 lbs around a mountain rather than shoot me some 5" groups with a wicked light shorty.
Just get a 6.8 spc II or Six8 And Skip The drama...Lmfao
An 8.5" 6.8? That's a whole 6 lbs 4 oz dude! No way I can hump that massive thing! Kidding of course. FML.
....and yes, that would be a great alternative than f'ing around with the above suggestions.
....and yes, that would be a great alternative than f'ing around with the above suggestions.
Actually, yes, yes it does.
Wait no I'm wrong, you're qualified to speak on the yield strength of an engineered and machined piece of steel, based on the shit you've read on internet forums.
None of your problems ever came from an AA bolt other than the fact that you couldn't have one when you wanted one. Enough of your bull shit.
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Pretty funny post.LOL Provided your profile is correct--- I was literally building ARs (on the side) and rebuilding M16s in the military while you were in High School. It's completely irrelevant to the fact that an AR10 will never weigh less than an equally equipped AR15 though. I wasn't talking about your "I can do whatever teh Grendel can do! In a shorter .308!" mantra. I don't care what you think, want, or whatever. In the context that I posted (and meant), an AR10 simply weighs more than an AR15. Adding qualifiers to try and change that is merely being argumentative.
You can make what ever (incorrect) assumptions about me that you want though, I'm getting bored with all the immature drama around here.---- I'm personally guilty of it as well by participating though.
FWIW: I will add this for anyone actually interested in the Grendel-- My 10.5" has already killed plenty of deer just fine.
I'll be happy to pick up an extra 150fps from the extra two inches of barrel in a 12.5" though. I'll feel a bit more confident about longer shots that way.
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Nobody's saying shit about you. Take a Benadryl and grab a nap or something.
Nice deer you got there. We have elk in my neck of the woods. You nab that at 50 yds or so?
I would have responded earlier but I was jacking off to a sweet titanium bolt carrier. F'ing awesome. Like a whole 3.5 ounces lighter than anything. Operator as fuck fo' real dawg.
You must read real good to know I'm 33, job well done there. Happy to hear you decided to take a chance on living with honor rather than regret. Assumptions to the degree you've taken it are the mother of all fuck ups my friend. You should know that if what you speak is true.
Nice deer you got there. We have elk in my neck of the woods. You nab that at 50 yds or so?
I would have responded earlier but I was jacking off to a sweet titanium bolt carrier. F'ing awesome. Like a whole 3.5 ounces lighter than anything. Operator as fuck fo' real dawg.
You must read real good to know I'm 33, job well done there. Happy to hear you decided to take a chance on living with honor rather than regret. Assumptions to the degree you've taken it are the mother of all fuck ups my friend. You should know that if what you speak is true.
Here's my take guys, and I'll try to spell this out as well as I possibly can, leaving the smartass pills alone tonight. I do not believe that the grendel is a 1 rifle do-it-all system. What I am saying is that you can use the 6.5 grendel chambering in a vast myriad of contours, lengths, profiles, weights etc. to achieve a very wide variety of performance. The same is true of many calibers, and really, of the AR-15 system in general. However, of those "popular" chamberings offered in the AR-15 platform (5.56, 6.5, 6.8, 300 BO, 50 beo, 458), the 6.5 is one of the better performers across the spectrum. Mind you, these are all separate weapons, each with a specific intent in mind.
You can SBR a Grendel to 10.5-12.5" and have more energy than 5.56 and match a 300 BO. In this configuration, while not ideal, you still have the ability to poke out to 300-500yd, or more, if you like pissing in the wind.
You can run a 14.5-18" "Battle rifle" or whatever you want to call it, that will not weigh much more than a standard 5.56 system, but will deliver more energy than most, very accurately, and have the capacity to push to 700-1000yd if you so desire. It may lag with energy minimally up front, but the farther it goes, the more it shines.
You can do a 18-22" "DMR" or hunting rifle that will take large game to 500+ yd and push 1100-1200 for useful accuracy.
You can go nuts with a 15lb monster and 24-28" barrel and have some really serious ballistics out of the AR15 platform.
So what am I saying? Build the rifle to suit your needs (no shit). Ideally the OP would say what he wants to use the rifle for, but he didn't.
Am I saying a 20" Grendel is an ideal home-defense rifle? NO. Am I saying I wish I had a 10.5" grendel for 600yd shooting? NO. I'm saying you can make a Grendel do anything from 0 to 1200yd in the AR-15 platform, and that in and of itself is pretty damn impressive. No other caliber that's commercially available (that I'm aware of) can do that in the AR-15 with a 20+ round capacity.
So with all of that in mind, when someone asks (VERY SIMPLY), "6.5 or 300?", my first response is going to be 6.5. Odds are you can make it work for your application fairly easily. What if the guy wants to shoot 500yd steel? A 300 BO isn't going to be that great. What if he's stuck 16"+ and no suppressor because his state has a communist government? 300 BO might not be as fun as advertised.
If the OP wants to stay within 200yd, he can go either way. The 300 has the advantage in availability (reload, reload, reload-- narrows the price/availability gap quite a bit), but if you ever want to stretch the ole legs, might as well have a grendel, that's my opinion. My rifle is right at 7lbs empty. It's the same size and less weight than my M4 when I was in the Corps. I could do the same 5-25yd drills that I did with my M4 easily. I can clear a house with it. I also shoot it regularly to 600-800, occasionally to 1000 and beyond. It's effective enough. The best? no. Effective to the point that I'd very much NOT like to be on the other end, very much so. That's a pretty broad paintbrush. Might not produce a 100% streak-free finish, but it will paint, boys and girls. Remember what I said about it not being a 1 rifle for everything system? I have a bolt gun in .260 for bigger game and beyond 400yd. I'm not out there tagging moose at 600yd with my Grendel... lol
I don't think there's any denying any of that WITHIN THE SCOPE of the AR-15 platform and a simple 6.5 vs. 300 blackout debate.
You can SBR a Grendel to 10.5-12.5" and have more energy than 5.56 and match a 300 BO. In this configuration, while not ideal, you still have the ability to poke out to 300-500yd, or more, if you like pissing in the wind.
You can run a 14.5-18" "Battle rifle" or whatever you want to call it, that will not weigh much more than a standard 5.56 system, but will deliver more energy than most, very accurately, and have the capacity to push to 700-1000yd if you so desire. It may lag with energy minimally up front, but the farther it goes, the more it shines.
You can do a 18-22" "DMR" or hunting rifle that will take large game to 500+ yd and push 1100-1200 for useful accuracy.
You can go nuts with a 15lb monster and 24-28" barrel and have some really serious ballistics out of the AR15 platform.
So what am I saying? Build the rifle to suit your needs (no shit). Ideally the OP would say what he wants to use the rifle for, but he didn't.
Am I saying a 20" Grendel is an ideal home-defense rifle? NO. Am I saying I wish I had a 10.5" grendel for 600yd shooting? NO. I'm saying you can make a Grendel do anything from 0 to 1200yd in the AR-15 platform, and that in and of itself is pretty damn impressive. No other caliber that's commercially available (that I'm aware of) can do that in the AR-15 with a 20+ round capacity.
So with all of that in mind, when someone asks (VERY SIMPLY), "6.5 or 300?", my first response is going to be 6.5. Odds are you can make it work for your application fairly easily. What if the guy wants to shoot 500yd steel? A 300 BO isn't going to be that great. What if he's stuck 16"+ and no suppressor because his state has a communist government? 300 BO might not be as fun as advertised.
If the OP wants to stay within 200yd, he can go either way. The 300 has the advantage in availability (reload, reload, reload-- narrows the price/availability gap quite a bit), but if you ever want to stretch the ole legs, might as well have a grendel, that's my opinion. My rifle is right at 7lbs empty. It's the same size and less weight than my M4 when I was in the Corps. I could do the same 5-25yd drills that I did with my M4 easily. I can clear a house with it. I also shoot it regularly to 600-800, occasionally to 1000 and beyond. It's effective enough. The best? no. Effective to the point that I'd very much NOT like to be on the other end, very much so. That's a pretty broad paintbrush. Might not produce a 100% streak-free finish, but it will paint, boys and girls. Remember what I said about it not being a 1 rifle for everything system? I have a bolt gun in .260 for bigger game and beyond 400yd. I'm not out there tagging moose at 600yd with my Grendel... lol
I don't think there's any denying any of that WITHIN THE SCOPE of the AR-15 platform and a simple 6.5 vs. 300 blackout debate.
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this times a thousand
Not comparing the Grendel in a sub application. I was simply stating my opinion that it is anything but a "fad" chambering that is going to go by the wayside.
"Other calibers" are irrelevant because they are incompatible with the AR-15 platform... and I'm comparing it to the .308 because I CAN... without throwing it into the "large frame" world of the AR-10. Just can't compare the B.C. of the 6.5's to anything else with the case capacity available- with the possible exception of 6.8, there may be better bullets available for this now than when I built the Grendel a couple of years ago.
The 300 is apx 100 fps slower than a 7.62x39, 200+ slower than a 30-30 with the same weight bullets and barrel length even though I see many say the 300 is the same as a 30-30. If you compare a typical 30-30 with a 18" barrel length ( I mean why would you cut off a lever action rifle barrel?) to a typical 300 then the 30-30 is even faster. The 300 will not run with a 6.8 or 6.5. The 5.56 will spank it at long range too. How many have you heard of using a 300blk for highpower competition? Zero. For sub sonic use it is better than the 9mm without a doubt. You can debate whether a big slow bullet is better than a light fast bullet for combat. If the enemy wears armor the 5.56 will defeat it long before the big slow 30 cal will. At this point the 6.8 AP bullets are the only US made assault rifle rounds that will defeat L IV armor.
Looking at performance only for hunting, military or target the 6.5 is a better performer.
The OP asks for opinions, unfortunately. He got lots of those, but too many not backed by any statistical information or fact.
Lets look at the rounds objectively:
300AAC/300 Whisper: GREAT subsonic round, and the more aerodynamic bullets allow it to be used reliably out to ranges that subsonics previously couldn't touch. If you choose to use it running faster, you can, but there are compromises. It essentially becomes a 30-30 or 7.62x39. Since the design parameters of the AAC BO was to meet 7.62x39 performance, the engineers did their job. Once again, effective out somewhere around 100-200 yards, perhaps a bit more.
I have to laugh at everyone acting like its the cats meow, when its been around for years and no one thought it was anything BUT a niche cartridge while it was JD Jones who was selling it. Then AAC and Remington get involved (apparently stole it!) and its the be all/end all for everything from killing pigs to ninja warrior stuff. Its a good cartridge, with a lot of companies riding the big boys advertising budgets. When Remington, Ruger, Savage, or Winchester, or similar companies market something, that pulls the market. BUT nothing changed, it was a niche cartridge when JD Jones sold it, and its a niche cartridge now. Think not? Please tell me exactly how many civilians have used one in a self defense situation? Until it moves into that category, and is used widely for self defense, as it was intended, its a niche cartridge, regardless of how many are sold. Its a COOL niche cartridge, especially if you have a can, but its still a niche cartridge with lots of growing pains.
(Everyone I've seen or worked on has had issues going back and forth between subsonic and sonic rounds, unless the port was cut bigger and an adjustable gas block installed. Optimized for supersonic rounds, it doesn't want to run well unsuppressed and subsonic, and I have seen plenty and read more that my experience isn't unique. When I've called companies building them, they all have told me that they tend to set them up to run subsonic and suppressed, which tends to leave too big a gas port for supersonic rounds, causing timing and brass issues. Early on, when I called AAC to get information on proper gas port sizing, they didn't know!
The market exploded because it came out at a time when people were looking for variant cartridges, and it had the advantage of being based on widely available and popular brass, the most common bolt for an AR on the market, and could be used in the same mags as the 5.56. Anyone who thinks that Remington/AAC doesn't have a marketing genius on board is either just crawling out from under a rock or is stupid! That marketing budget and a wide open, non proprietary design allowed all kinds of craziness in people producing it, often with the wrong sized port, etc.
Lets look at the rounds objectively:
300AAC/300 Whisper: GREAT subsonic round, and the more aerodynamic bullets allow it to be used reliably out to ranges that subsonics previously couldn't touch. If you choose to use it running faster, you can, but there are compromises. It essentially becomes a 30-30 or 7.62x39. Since the design parameters of the AAC BO was to meet 7.62x39 performance, the engineers did their job. Once again, effective out somewhere around 100-200 yards, perhaps a bit more.
I have to laugh at everyone acting like its the cats meow, when its been around for years and no one thought it was anything BUT a niche cartridge while it was JD Jones who was selling it. Then AAC and Remington get involved (apparently stole it!) and its the be all/end all for everything from killing pigs to ninja warrior stuff. Its a good cartridge, with a lot of companies riding the big boys advertising budgets. When Remington, Ruger, Savage, or Winchester, or similar companies market something, that pulls the market. BUT nothing changed, it was a niche cartridge when JD Jones sold it, and its a niche cartridge now. Think not? Please tell me exactly how many civilians have used one in a self defense situation? Until it moves into that category, and is used widely for self defense, as it was intended, its a niche cartridge, regardless of how many are sold. Its a COOL niche cartridge, especially if you have a can, but its still a niche cartridge with lots of growing pains.
(Everyone I've seen or worked on has had issues going back and forth between subsonic and sonic rounds, unless the port was cut bigger and an adjustable gas block installed. Optimized for supersonic rounds, it doesn't want to run well unsuppressed and subsonic, and I have seen plenty and read more that my experience isn't unique. When I've called companies building them, they all have told me that they tend to set them up to run subsonic and suppressed, which tends to leave too big a gas port for supersonic rounds, causing timing and brass issues. Early on, when I called AAC to get information on proper gas port sizing, they didn't know!
The market exploded because it came out at a time when people were looking for variant cartridges, and it had the advantage of being based on widely available and popular brass, the most common bolt for an AR on the market, and could be used in the same mags as the 5.56. Anyone who thinks that Remington/AAC doesn't have a marketing genius on board is either just crawling out from under a rock or is stupid! That marketing budget and a wide open, non proprietary design allowed all kinds of craziness in people producing it, often with the wrong sized port, etc.
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Did I touch a nerve?
If you too read and remember more carefully, I <b>NEVER</b> said that our rifle has broken an Alexander Arms bolt, but that <b>OTHER</b> owners have reported broken Alexander Arms bolts. Unless the reports have been scrubbed, those reports are on the 65Grendel forum, a forum for FANS of the Grendel cartridge. "Can you hear me now?" <b>FANS of the cartridge who OWN and SHOOT Grendels report broken ALEXANDER ARMS bolts</b>.
Are you suggesting they are liars?
Are you suggesting the reported <b>broken</b> bolts are evidence of superior "yield strength of an engineered and machined piece of steel"?
Or is there a problem?
In view of the numerous Grendel owners—including FANS!!!—who report that they have experienced broken bolts, it seems fair to mention the problem to inquisitive prospective owners like the original poster. I am a fan of the cartridge, but I am not in psychological denial of its weak points.
Frankly, I am amused at how much potty-mouth rage is provoked by simply mentioning the reported problem of broken bolts.
As for not being able "to have one when you wanted one," I urge interested readers or prospective purchasers to peruse the 65Grendel forum and read customers' reports of their own experiences with Alexander Arms. Let every man decide for himself.
*********
P.S. The kids are having so much fun inexpensively shooting the CZ527 Carbine in 7.62x39, I decided to NOT re-barrel it in 6.5 Grendel.
Having followed the Grendel almost since its inception and watched the flame wars its proponents had with 6.8 proponents, I am comfortable in asserting that the whole bolt "issue" was a combination of bolts that were not properly manufactured and hand loading. Since 2008, bolt failures have rapidly decreased to almost none in Grandel SAAMI chambers with AA bolts. Early on there were some bolt failures, and now and again a bolt breaks, but there has been no consistent bolt issue for at least 6-7 years, maybe longer. At one time a member on ARF.com kept track, and every bolt failure documented came from handloads, except for one, and it happened on a gun run on a steady diet of LBC Grendel ammo, before LBC switched to their own chamber.
Bolt failures occur in all AR's. The military has a very strict replacement protocol in 5.56 rifles. The M4 is notoriously harder on bolts than the M16 was/is.
The issues in the Grendel, when kept to the the max SAAMI pressure, are a non factor. When they have occurred of late, most have been traced to a bad barrel extension/bolt interface, with 1 or 2 lugs taking most of the force of the rifle firing.
I have not heard of any of the new manufacture bolts from the new companies having issues, and I have not heard of an AA bolt failure in the past 12 months.
The bolt issues are vastly overblown in the online forums.
I was on the forum a year or so before you and have been since. In my time following the cartridge I've NEVER come across a broken AA bolt in a SAAMI spec chamber. You ones that were broke around the time yours were breaking were LBC bolts in God knows what chambers.
You're putting it off as a common thing, when in fact it is hardly any more common than 5.56 bolt breakage when the Grendel bolt is built with proper material and processes.
The bolt has PROVEN through empirical data to not be a weak point, when you stay within the SAAMI pressures.
...
I suppose it's been quite the party at your house lately, watching the rockets fly into Israel. WTF
Trying to make 300BLK reliable in cold weather suppressed is a fool's errand in the AR15, no matter what gas system length you use. The "me" generation could care less though, and they have moved into places where demand outweighs the limitations of physics. 300BLK suppressed in the AR15 is a fair weather tool. Because of the temps I deal with, 300BLK just isn't a viable option worth wasting time on for me.
I've been running good volume on my 16" Grendel since 2009, using just a standard AA bolt, and all my load development goes until I see an excursion from the trend on the chronograph. That bolt is still trucking along just fine. All the bolts I have purchased since are 9130 AQ, and I look for lower pressure loads anyway with efficient powders.
The Grendel got me out of .308/AR10. I only do .260 Rem in the AR10 now, and it comes with a set of challenges. The biggest one is that there is no factory ammo for .260 Rem that will run safely or at a point where brass life and primer condition are acceptable. We're looking at an extra 200yds of supersonic range with the 22" .260 Rem. vs. the 16" Grendel when comparing the 123gr in one to the other. Both loads are supersonic out to 1318yds for me, with the .260 Rem taking supersonic out to over 1500yds. The difference is the Grendel ammo is readily available factory, meant to run in a gasser with no fuss, and is more affordable than FGMM in the .308 and .223 much of the time.
Impact on steel comparing the Grendel to .308 is right what the ballistic programs tell me: ~85% of .308, but with much less recoil, which helps me since I do a lot of shooting from positions. I get faster follow up shots and easier spotting for myself when tracking the shot. Wind deflection is less than .308 unless I hand load a 155gr to max pressure in the .308 (those days are over). I still have yet to find where my Lapua Grendel brass starts to lose primer pocket tension. With the .308 based cases, that happens usually at 3-4 firings in my gassers.
If my 16" Grendel is staying supersonic out to over 1300yds, then a 12.5" Grendel SBR becomes a very well-rounded and compact package, capable of both contact shooting in the house, to reaching past SPR territory, and even giving M118 a run for supersonic reach from a 24" barrel. I feel cheated after humping that club around for so many years, to be honest. I could have had a fighting carbine that would have doubled as my "long" gun.
I've been running good volume on my 16" Grendel since 2009, using just a standard AA bolt, and all my load development goes until I see an excursion from the trend on the chronograph. That bolt is still trucking along just fine. All the bolts I have purchased since are 9130 AQ, and I look for lower pressure loads anyway with efficient powders.
The Grendel got me out of .308/AR10. I only do .260 Rem in the AR10 now, and it comes with a set of challenges. The biggest one is that there is no factory ammo for .260 Rem that will run safely or at a point where brass life and primer condition are acceptable. We're looking at an extra 200yds of supersonic range with the 22" .260 Rem. vs. the 16" Grendel when comparing the 123gr in one to the other. Both loads are supersonic out to 1318yds for me, with the .260 Rem taking supersonic out to over 1500yds. The difference is the Grendel ammo is readily available factory, meant to run in a gasser with no fuss, and is more affordable than FGMM in the .308 and .223 much of the time.
Impact on steel comparing the Grendel to .308 is right what the ballistic programs tell me: ~85% of .308, but with much less recoil, which helps me since I do a lot of shooting from positions. I get faster follow up shots and easier spotting for myself when tracking the shot. Wind deflection is less than .308 unless I hand load a 155gr to max pressure in the .308 (those days are over). I still have yet to find where my Lapua Grendel brass starts to lose primer pocket tension. With the .308 based cases, that happens usually at 3-4 firings in my gassers.
If my 16" Grendel is staying supersonic out to over 1300yds, then a 12.5" Grendel SBR becomes a very well-rounded and compact package, capable of both contact shooting in the house, to reaching past SPR territory, and even giving M118 a run for supersonic reach from a 24" barrel. I feel cheated after humping that club around for so many years, to be honest. I could have had a fighting carbine that would have doubled as my "long" gun.
Both of our Les Baer bolts sheared the lug adjacent to the extractor WITHIN THE LAST 12 MONTHS while shooting FACTORY ammunition (Wolf 120gn MPT). The rifle itself is barely 12 months old. Prior to the first bolt failure, we did shoot sub-maximal reloads, but the second bolt failed after less than 30rds. of Wolf 120gn MPT, no reloads at all. SAAMI chamber and headspace checked by one of the most respected professionals here, the builder.
"Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts." — Sgt. Joe Friday, Dragnet
"Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts." — Sgt. Joe Friday, Dragnet
I was one of AA extractor and bolt tester back early 2008 and earlier. The bolts after the testing resulted in beefier points in the relief cuts and improvements to the bolt/extractor mfg. process.I will keep it at that. =0)
Despite the fact you really need to break this up in to paragraphs so it's readable, lol... Asking how many civilians have used the 300 BLK, the 6.5 Grendel, or even the 5.56 in a self defense situation statistically is retarded since most self defense situations don't involve AR-15's despite the liberal popular belief but involve handguns or shotguns. So making a decision based upon that isn't exactly rational and if you really want to go there then on a global level the 7.62x39 is the winner since it's killed more people than any other cartridge.
Good one Nick....=0)
There, fixed it for you. I forgot that people on forums have a hard time reading and comprehending anything that has more than three complex sentences in a row per paragraph!
Just kidding, I composed it in Word and cut and pasted and the forum took out the paragraphs for some reason. As for my criteria for a niche cartridge....The cartridge was designed as a self protection cartridge, to be used in short carbines. If it isn't being used for the purpose it was designed, then it must find a new purpose, and yet no one has really proposed one. Like all AR cartridges, it does a few things, (very FEW things) well, and most of the rest it fails at.
Well, there is 6mmAR and freinds, I think Satern is going that route.
Yep no major. 5.56x42(6.8) barrels should be avail this fall from a minor.
Just so everyone is clear: this is 6.5 Grendel ammo being shot through a .264LBC rifle. YMMV.
Exactly. My 16" Grendel puts a smile on my face and that's all that matters to me as well.
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There, fixed it for you. I forgot that people on forums have a hard time reading and comprehending anything that has more than three complex sentences in a row per paragraph!
As for my criteria for a niche cartridge....The cartridge was designed as a self protection cartridge, to be used in short carbines. If it isn't being used for the purpose it was designed, then it must find a new purpose, and yet no one has really proposed one. Like all AR cartridges, it does a few things, (very FEW things) well, and most of the rest it fails at.
It was designed primarily to fire a subsonic round out of a suppressed SBR reliably and deliver more energy. I guess I don't really quantify military or tactical applications as self defense. I agree though that it was only really intended for one purpose and not multiple which I never contended otherwise, but that's also my point that a lot of people want to take one cartridge and make it do everything which is a faux pas itself.
What part of "chambered 6.5 Grendel post-SAAMI" don't you understand?
The part where you specify whether you headspaced the now-Grendel chamber to the .264LBC bolt...
The standard AR is so versatile that for a few bills one can swap an upper and hardware out for .223 Remington/5.56x45mm, 9mm, .45 ACP, 5.7x28mm, 6.5 mm Grendel, .264, 6.8 mm Remington SPC, 300Whisper, 300BLK, 50 Beowulf, and .458 SOCOM (apologies if I missed any) all with their own variations of length and accessories.
They are literally variants purpose built platforms no different than attachments to a DeWalt power drill making arguing which is better a moot point and completely goal dependent (ie putting a mixer on a power drill vs 3/8" driver vs a 5/16" router or even a 6" wax buffer). But the arguments are entertaining nonetheless.
They are literally variants purpose built platforms no different than attachments to a DeWalt power drill making arguing which is better a moot point and completely goal dependent (ie putting a mixer on a power drill vs 3/8" driver vs a 5/16" router or even a 6" wax buffer). But the arguments are entertaining nonetheless.
