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6 officers shot in Utah

Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

I haven't read anywhere that the cops were shot at before entering the house or who actually shot who. There were shots fired, six cops were hit most multiple times, the homeowner was found outside in a shed and was arrested peacefully but was wounded. There hasn't been information about any weapons released yet.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Asst. Police Chief Tarwater</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Officers knocked on Stewart’s door and when no one answered entered the house and were fired upon, he said. </div></div>

They may not have kicked in the door, but I doubt they had a key. . . . . .
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HOW MANY TIMES DOES IT NEED TO BE SAID?

THE DOOR WAS NOT KICKED IN....THIS WAS NOT A SWAT OPERATION.

IT WAS DETECTIVES KNOCKING ON THE DOOR TO SERVE AN ARREST WARRANT AT 8PM IN ACCORDANCE WITH UTAH STATE CODE WHICH DESIGNATES THIS TYPE OF WARRANT BE SERVED DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS OF 6AM-10PM.

THE SUSPECT RESPONDED TO THE KNOCK AND ANNOUNCEMENT WITH GUNFIRE.



</div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic">On Wednesday, at around 9 p.m. in Ogden, Utah, a 12-man "Narcotics Strike Force team" which included local police, Sheriff's officers, and members of the Drug Enforcement Administration [video] knocked on the door of Matthew David Stewart, in possession of a search warrant related to as-yet-unspecified drug charges. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 26pt">Police say there was no answer, so they kicked in the door.</span></span></span>

Story... </div></div>

It's astounding how people either can't read or deny the facts being presented, isn't it?
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 375ultra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I haven't read anywhere that the cops were shot at before entering the house or who actually shot who. There were shots fired, six cops were hit most multiple times, the homeowner was found outside in a shed and was arrested peacefully but was wounded. There hasn't been information about any weapons released yet. </div></div>

the article in the op said that the officers were fired upon while they approached the suspect's house. other articles have now been linked here with a different story of what happened.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.

Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div>


Ummm, yes.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a couple of them, that say the officer's went in and then the firing started.




http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-officers-wounded-ogden-shooting-15293739#.TwkY8KX--M0

http://www.standard.net/stories/2012/01/05/ogden-police-shooting-likely-death-penalty-case </div></div>

Who could argue with the accuracy of the media
wink.gif
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

Another WOD failure....

Makes me wonder, if police serve a warrant on you while you're asleep, bust in your door and scare the shit out of you what are you supposed to do? Let's suppose you were asleep when they identified themselves as LEO's but the busting down of your front door wakes you up in a hurry. You don't know what's going on, you hear the commotion going on and grab your AR15 and blast the first thing through the door. At that point, imo, you are protecting yourself in your own home. When someone busts through your front door you shouldn't have to ask for ID before you start shooting. I'm not saying that law enforcement failed to identify themselves in this case, only the person they were after could tell you if they did or didn't. This just seems like a lot of unecessary risk involved on both sides for a warrant on a non violent offense.

I agree with the idea that most of the so called drug problems = prohibition problems. Alcohol is a prime example of something that was once illegal and brought with it a multitude of problems then when legalized many of the problems went away. Doing away with the prohibition of the drugs would do away with the prohibition problems and leave only the actual drug problems to deal with. I don't want to see LEO's nor everyday citizens getting hurt and killed in the name of drugs, not worth the risk and it's a proven failure....this is just one more example. What has been gained by the war on drugs?
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

This thread is fucking pathetic. People are dead and injured in the line of duty. Show some respect at least. Consider this: would a person be shown the same courtesy if they were to criticize a soldier's driving skills in a thread about a KIA from a roadside bomb? No, nor should they.

And why does nearly every portion of the article has to be quoted and <span style="font-weight: bold">highlighted</span> for half of the illiterate clowns who posted. And now it's evolved into a "legalize it" thread. Outstanding

Also, did it not occur to some of the arm-chair commandos here that the article isn't 100% accurate. I'm sure many that are criticizing the police tactics are taking the text as gospel. I'm hoping that not all media articles are regarded in such high esteem.

Phylodog pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm not surprised since unlike most that posted, he actually knows a thing or 2 about police procedure.

Again, fucking pathetic
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ya, let's approach this guy at walmart or some other highly populated public place where not only is it just as likely that the shitbag suspect will fight but then we can have hundreds more innocent victims put at risk. Brilliant thinking from a shining example of logical reasoning. The caveat I will offer is that if you are so good at predicting outcomes when dealing with criminals I am sure there is a long list of agencies that would pay dearly for your psychic knowledge.


This was a knock and announce warrant, served to arrest someone where there was enough evidence to support the a judge issuing a warrant. Due process had in fact been followed to this point. Based on the fact that a no knock warrant was not obtained there was not a high suspicion or evidence that the suspect was going to fight. These are the same type of warrant that is commonly executed without incident all over the country.

In UT state law requires that such a warrant be served between the hours of 6am-10pm. The officers knocked and announced at which point they began taking fire from the home. So shitbag dopesmoker decided this incident not the cops.

To Eleaf, EH, Killshot, et al. Feel free to critique all you want but when you spew your bullshit without any knowledge of the actual events and simply rely on your emotionally driven rhetoric you simply continue to sound stupid. If and when you would ever consider discussing factual information you may be surprised to find your opinions don't hold water.
</div></div>
Exactly it was a Knock and Announce Sighned off by a Judge in the Common Pleas Court. Meaning that after the Detective sat in the with the Judge and explained the case to that Judge, The judge who deals with nothing but laws, and case laws, who is a attorney, said yes there is enough here to sign a warrant and no if they dont think you have enough or something is lacking they will tell you no. Then after you get that issue squared away you have to go talk to another judge so that thier is no bias. Also the same judge who signs of on the seach warrant can not hear the case in thier court room. Now that we a have a bais understanding of the Courts, oh by the way this is called Due Process My .02 is that (A) someone dropped the ball either on intel or making it known that the suspect has access to firearms combined with the fact that the suspect is or was involved in the sale or distribution of narcotics and yes weed is in that category. IF they had known that, then they should have obtained a No Knock Warrant. (B) The Judge for whatever reson did not feel that a No Knock was appropiate and that a Knock and Announce was ok due to the persons type of criminal history, which none of us know, and some Judges reguardless will not sign off on a No Knock Warrant. The No Knock would have allowed which ever SRT/HRT/ or in my case SWAT Team to serve / execute that search warrant, not the detectives, since we have all the eqiptement and most importantly the training to do this. We SWAT guys consider recovering dope, guns and money from the bad guys, and the bad guys who are not supposed to have guns, i.e drug gealers, convicted felons, ect. Excluding the law abiding citizen (We like law abiding people ) without injury a good and successful day. Unlike T.V. when a Knock and Announce and especially on a No Knock Warrant it is the Courts Commanding that you be brought forth to them to answer for charges, and its felony charges not misdeneanor level. And its not a please come on in and have a talk with us because we know your an ok guy and will come on in without any issues and take care of this and talk to us with your attorney. Thats why warrants are issued. I dont know why there is so much what I consider discord or hate towards LEO on this Forum.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I dont know why there is so much what I consider discord or hate towards LEO on this Forum. </div></div>

Video of Utah cops killing a guy with a Golf Club, without shouting for compliance.


I don't know, maybe they shouldn't murder people like this confused guy who heard some not very clear screaming (not very clear with the camera is on our side of the door) and grabbed a golf club to defend himself, and then maybe people can be more supportive.

Gosh they could have at least yelled, drop your weapon, before shooting him three times- it's a golf club, not a firearm.

The guy was in a corner- it was a defensive posture, not an offensive one.

 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Show some respect at least. </div></div>
I dont recall anyone disrespecting fallen officer's in this thread, only discussing their tactics, and perhaps how it could have been done better or differently to avoid unnecessary violence for both the police, and civilians.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Consider this: would a person be shown the same courtesy if they were to criticize a soldier's driving skills in a thread about a KIA from a roadside bomb? No, nor should they. </div></div>
You are right, but a soldier in a foreign theater of war is certainly at a higher risk than a detective serving a search warrant to a suspected drug cultivator in his home town.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And why does nearly every portion of the article has to be quoted and <span style="font-weight: bold">highlighted</span> for half of the illiterate clowns who posted. And now it's evolved into a "legalize it" thread. Outstanding </div></div>
The only one who <span style="font-weight: bold">maybe</span> is arguing that line is eleaf, I am completely against it, and any further blurring of the line between right and wrong.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also, did it not occur to some of the arm-chair commandos here that the article isn't 100% accurate. I'm sure many that are criticizing the police tactics are taking the text as gospel. I'm hoping that not all media articles are regarded in such high esteem.</div></div>
Of course, they could be completely wrong. It could be that the guy fired upon them as they walked up to his door, but it goes both ways doesn't it? Maybe they mumbled "Pulees" as they broke down his door and ran through his house. But you are right, we wont know until the facts come out, and even then it will be hard to say for sure since some people are dead, and not all are out of the woods yet. The media is reporting that the city is talking about aggravated murder charges already, and for all we know the guy was simply acting in self defense.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

Griffin, I wasnt there and neither were you. But in most states when a person yeilds a bat or golf club which can cause physical harm to a person that will get you shot reguardless if its in a defensive posture or offensive one. He was told to get on the ground more than once and the officers were in a fatal funnel. You have something in hand that can be used as a weapon and you dont comply when you are told to get on the ground, well? Add to that when you are in a strange house that you dont know much about except for the layout and are confronted by person(s) who 9 out of 10 have violent history and or combined with drug abuse. Have you ever had to arrest and or fight with someone on bath salts or are methed up? These people are capible of allmost superhuman strenght and they dont listen very well and usually tazers and or mace dont work. By the way have you ever attended any classes taught by certifed trainers in clearing a house? I see that you are or were an Army Sniper. Did you ever take any courses on clearing a house? Not to sound disrespectful. My prayers go out to the mans family for thier loss. Now understand you guys are on the West Coast and Im on the East. We deal with a different attitude with the public and law enforcement. Here in my area we have alot of Country people that dont want there neighborhoods or areas in which they live to turn out like what they see on T.V. and are very much law enforcement friendly. Especially when all most every P.D. in my area even mine offers a Citizens Police Academy which educates the public and is transparent in showing how we do our job and why. It would be a good idea if the Dept. in your areas did that and it would be even better if people took the time and went to the free classes. Thank You for posting that video. Combined with the lack of training, personal opinons absed on whatever, and facts from both law enforcement and the public, that shows me more of why for various reasons that some have the viwes they do.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

I haven't seen any "LEO hatred" in this topic but it never ceases to amaze me how some people never miss a chance to twist shit into something it isn't. The only point I've tried to make is if the use of tactics had been different, this topic wouldn't be here. That's not "hating" on anyone, especially LEO.

Think bout it. The guy doesn't stay home 24/7 and if he would've been picked up while on the street in the middle of the day, there wouldn't have been a big shoot out. If I were an LEO, I'd much rather prefer to arrest and search a residence in broad daylight than to conduct it at night for the very reasons this article is about.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

The times are not set or made by us KillShot its the State Laws and the Courts that make it that way. I am not speciffically stating this thread, about the hate but I do seem to see a trend. Now I do remember when we had the thread that got deleted when that dumb a$$ up North of me basically violated the CCW Permit holders rights. That left a bad taste in my mouth and I hope that he was dealt with accordingly. I will be the first, believe you me to say, hey, that's not cool. I have been on here a little while now and believe that a healthy discussion is good and that not everyone will agree but as men and Americans we can agree to disagree. I wont bash other members by doing so.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ya, let's approach this guy at walmart or some other highly populated public place where not only is it just as likely that the shitbag suspect will fight but then we can have hundreds more innocent victims put at risk. Brilliant thinking from a shining example of logical reasoning. The caveat I will offer is that if you are so good at predicting outcomes when dealing with criminals I am sure there is a long list of agencies that would pay dearly for your psychic knowledge.


This was a knock and announce warrant, served to arrest someone where there was enough evidence to support the a judge issuing a warrant. Due process had in fact been followed to this point. Based on the fact that a no knock warrant was not obtained there was not a high suspicion or evidence that the suspect was going to fight. These are the same type of warrant that is commonly executed without incident all over the country.

In UT state law requires that such a warrant be served between the hours of 6am-10pm. The officers knocked and announced at which point they began taking fire from the home. So shitbag dopesmoker decided this incident not the cops.

To Eleaf, EH, Killshot, et al. Feel free to critique all you want but when you spew your bullshit without any knowledge of the actual events and simply rely on your emotionally driven rhetoric you simply continue to sound stupid. If and when you would ever consider discussing factual information you may be surprised to find your opinions don't hold water.
</div></div>
Exactly it was a Knock and Announce Sighned off by a Judge in the Common Pleas Court. Meaning that after the Detective sat in the with the Judge and explained the case to that Judge, The judge who deals with nothing but laws, and case laws, who is a attorney, said yes there is enough here to sign a warrant and no if they dont think you have enough or something is lacking they will tell you no. Then after you get that issue squared away you have to go talk to another judge so that thier is no bias. Also the same judge who signs of on the seach warrant can not hear the case in thier court room. Now that we a have a bais understanding of the Courts, oh by the way this is called Due Process My .02 is that (A) someone dropped the ball either on intel or making it known that the suspect has access to firearms combined with the fact that the suspect is or was involved in the sale or distribution of narcotics and yes weed is in that category. IF they had known that, then they should have obtained a No Knock Warrant. (B) The Judge for whatever reson did not feel that a No Knock was appropiate and that a Knock and Announce was ok due to the persons type of criminal history, which none of us know, and some Judges reguardless will not sign off on a No Knock Warrant. The No Knock would have allowed which ever SRT/HRT/ or in my case SWAT Team to serve / execute that search warrant, not the detectives, since we have all the eqiptement and most importantly the training to do this. We SWAT guys consider recovering dope, guns and money from the bad guys, and the bad guys who are not supposed to have guns, i.e drug gealers, convicted felons, ect. Excluding the law abiding citizen (We like law abiding people ) without injury a good and successful day. Unlike T.V. when a Knock and Announce and especially on a No Knock Warrant it is the Courts Commanding that you be brought forth to them to answer for charges, and its felony charges not misdeneanor level. And its not a please come on in and have a talk with us because we know your an ok guy and will come on in without any issues and take care of this and talk to us with your attorney. Thats why warrants are issued. I dont know why there is so much what I consider discord or hate towards LEO on this Forum. </div></div>

Zebra308, thank you for the informative post. I think the reason for the perceived dislike of police is due to the fact that you can see police doing the wrong thing, or being cast in a negative light, on television everyday. For some folks, its starting to feel like the police are a para-military unit. The idea of certain freedoms being infringed upon is enough to make otherwise law abiding citizens quite angry with the police. I know that for every clip of police brutality, there are a thousand instances of good cops doing their job the right way, but the media never shows that. It doesn't get good ratings. An unfortunate side effect of this public dislike, is the rise in ambush style police slayings. There were more ambush style killings of officers in 2011 then ever before. Combine that with the increased population of recently returned war veterans, who may or may not respect the law, and it spells trouble. Im not saying all vets are unstable, but the sad truth is that some of them are very unstable. I know this. Breaking into said veterans house after dark is probably an ill conceived notion. The whole incident is sad.....
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

I can understand that uniformed LEO's are the focal point of the publics dislike for the goverment because we are seen in a uniform and seen everyday the association is made. A majority of the Hide Members here I feel ahve the common reasoning skills to understand they have the ability to say hey the LEO's are Law Enforcement, not Law Makers, thats what congress and senate do they make the rules that can be turned into laws if not voted down. On the other side of the coin, excluding the search warrant, people call us. Oh by the way the reason the the search warrant was obtained was becsue of the public lodging complaints about drug activty or suspicious activity by people that may or may not have formal training in recognising these types of things. Then the complaints are looked at becasue we were called, found to be vaild which casues an investigation which in turns leeds to searh warrant based of off all the above and then we show up. Remember yall called us, we dont just show up and pick on people. Then when we deal with someone bad or when something bad happens its all our faults becsue something has to be done about it and we are the ones who do becsue no one else would or can or will get involved. Every Human being on this planet has free will and the ability to make choises. We are the ones who sees humanitity on American Soil at its lowest and worst. No matter how right we are when we do something we are allways wrong. When you deal with people who dont like us for whatever reason be it justifiable or not, they hate us until they need us then they call us we help them and they still arent happy with us no matter how well we or above or beyond we went in doing or jobs. I usually stay out of these types of threads but I just wanted to put my .02 in for a change. Trust me I dont like all aspects of my job but as I swore on a Bible which means the most to me, I will as others to do my job. If people did not call for us and never did wrong than we would not be needed. No officers ever wants to ever use deadly force on anyone. I am totaly happy if the only time I ever shoot a gun in my carrer is at a paper training target or putting a deer down that got hit by a car and the meat goes to a needy family on what we call a call out list. Remember we have to live with that the rest of our lives as does our families as well. No one ever promised us a rose garden and we know that but think people.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

For those people who are questioning every move of the LEO, I have a favor to ask. Please answer the following questions, either in this thread or to yourselves. I am not doing this to be a smartass, but I honestly think there is some value to this.

1) How could this situation have been different if the suspect had not been growing pot illegally?

2) If still growing the pot illegally, how would it have been different if the suspect was only growing for personal use? instead of growing for distribution (pics on KSL.com clearly show large components of a sizable hydroponic grow system)

3) Do you realize the legal standards needed to be met for all of this to happen? and how those standards also constrained which strategy/tactics the officers could choose.

4) Do you understand that for all your alternative strategies or tactics involve the assumption that YOU can predict the behavior of the suspect? which in fact we know you can't.

5) Do you realize that the information you are basing your arguments from is incredibly incomplete and largely inaccurate?
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

As usual the same merry band of idiots chiming on things they know nothing about.

May the officer rest in peace.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I dont know why there is so much what I consider discord or hate towards LEO on this Forum. </div></div>

Video of Utah cops killing a guy with a Golf Club, without shouting for compliance.


I don't know, maybe they shouldn't murder people like this confused guy who heard some not very clear screaming (not very clear with the camera is on our side of the door) and grabbed a golf club to defend himself, and then maybe people can be more supportive.

Gosh they could have at least yelled, drop your weapon, before shooting him three times- it's a golf club, not a firearm.

The guy was in a corner- it was a defensive posture, not an offensive one.

</div></div>

Pretty ballsy statement from a Hide vendor no less.

I can only hope that most of the cops on here get to see this post and what you think about LE and hopefully as a result, you lose business.

Dick
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

For those of you who think that "simple" or "routine" weed warrants should be more like meeting a friend for coffee, or something that includes hugs, keep living in your safe little bubble and let the men at risk do there job w/out your personal ideologies trying to dictate how or what LEO should do on the W.O.D.

Furthermore if you think that weed is harmless, go back to licking the window. From the moment a seed is planted to the time the smoke disappears there is money being made. Where there is money in illegal activity violence is sure to be close by.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> For those of you who think that "simple" or "routine" weed warrants should be more like meeting a friend for coffee, or something that includes hugs, keep living in your safe little bubble and let the men at risk do there job w/out your personal ideologies trying to dictate how or what LEO should do on the W.O.D.</div></div>

this is an open forum where people express their opinions. you may or may not agree with those opinions but no one is trying to or can dictate how officers do their job. i think many have a problem with forced entries except in extreme situations. i don't think anyone is blaming the officers for that. they are doing their job.

since there are two totally different stories being told about this situation, i'm not going to use it to support my opinion. i've seen one story saying they were shot at as they approached the house and another say they kicked the door down and then were shot inside the house.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Furthermore if you think that weed is harmless, go back to licking the window. From the moment a seed is planted to the time the smoke disappears there is money being made. Where there is money in illegal activity violence is sure to be close by.
</div></div>

is it illegal because there is violence or is there violence because it is illegal?
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those people who are questioning every move of the LEO, I have a favor to ask. Please answer the following questions, either in this thread or to yourselves. I am not doing this to be a smartass, but I honestly think there is some value to this.

1) How could this situation have been different if the suspect had not been growing pot illegally?

2) If still growing the pot illegally, how would it have been different if the suspect was only growing for personal use? instead of growing for distribution (pics on KSL.com clearly show large components of a sizable hydroponic grow system)

3) Do you realize the legal standards needed to be met for all of this to happen? and how those standards also constrained which strategy/tactics the officers could choose.

4) Do you understand that for all your alternative strategies or tactics involve the assumption that YOU can predict the behavior of the suspect? which in fact we know you can't.

5) Do you realize that the information you are basing your arguments from is incredibly incomplete and largely inaccurate?

</div></div>

Good points you've made, smokshwn.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Furthermore if you think that weed is harmless, go back to licking the window. From the moment a seed is planted to the time the smoke disappears there is money being made. Where there is money in illegal activity violence is sure to be close by.
</div></div>

is it illegal because there is violence or is there violence because it is illegal?

[/quote]

Assuming that (pick your drug of choice) is made legal, what is your prediction of the behavior of the former criminal activity? Do you see them becoming law abiding, tax paying citizens? or do you see them just finding new illegal activity to participate in?
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Furthermore if you think that weed is harmless, go back to licking the window. From the moment a seed is planted to the time the smoke disappears there is money being made. Where there is money in illegal activity violence is sure to be close by.
</div></div>

is it illegal because there is violence or is there violence because it is illegal?

</div></div>


Assuming that (pick your drug of choice) is made legal, what is your prediction of the behavior of the former criminal activity? Do you see them becoming law abiding, tax paying citizens? or do you see them just finding new illegal activity to participate in? </div></div>


maybe i'm misunderstanding you, and i really hope i am, but are you seriously using that as a reason for drugs to be illegal?


edit: i fixed your quote for you.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Furthermore if you think that weed is harmless, go back to licking the window. From the moment a seed is planted to the time the smoke disappears there is money being made. Where there is money in illegal activity violence is sure to be close by.
</div></div>

is it illegal because there is violence or is there violence because it is illegal?

</div></div>



Assuming that (pick your drug of choice) is made legal, what is your prediction of the behavior of the former criminal activity? Do you see them becoming law abiding, tax paying citizens? or do you see them just finding new illegal activity to participate in? </div></div>


maybe i'm misunderstanding you, and i really hope i am, but are you seriously using that as a reason for drugs to be illegal?


edit: i fixed your quote for you. </div></div>

I think there is a misunderstanding.

I am pointing out that those involved in the drug trade/use are already willing to commit heinously illegal acts, simply legalizing their behavior is not equal to eliminating it.

If a shitbag is willing to carjack you, rob your grandmother, or prostitute his stepdaughter to purchase illegal drugs, do you honestly think they will suddenly become an upstanding citizen and get a job to fund the purchase of the proposed legalized drugs?
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a shitbag is willing to carjack you, rob your grandmother, or prostitute his stepdaughter to purchase illegal drugs, do you honestly think they will suddenly become an upstanding citizen and get a job to fund the purchase of the proposed legalized drugs?
</div></div>

Excellent point, and another reason that legalizing everything doesn't seem like a good Idea. Then these shit bags will just be doing other crimes while they are high.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
is it illegal because there is violence or is there violence because it is illegal?

</div></div>



Assuming that (pick your drug of choice) is made legal, what is your prediction of the behavior of the former criminal activity? Do you see them becoming law abiding, tax paying citizens? or do you see them just finding new illegal activity to participate in? </div></div>


maybe i'm misunderstanding you, and i really hope i am, but are you seriously using that as a reason for drugs to be illegal?


edit: i fixed your quote for you. </div></div>

I think there is a misunderstanding.

I am pointing out that those involved in the drug trade/use are already willing to commit heinously illegal acts, simply legalizing their behavior is not equal to eliminating it.

If a shitbag is willing to carjack you, rob your grandmother, or prostitute his stepdaughter to purchase illegal drugs, do you honestly think they will suddenly become an upstanding citizen and get a job to fund the purchase of the proposed legalized drugs?
</div></div>

Why would they have to buy anything? Legalization would mean they could grow their own.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Griffin, I wasnt there and neither were you. But in most states when a person yeilds a bat or golf club which can cause physical harm to a person that will get you shot reguardless if its in a defensive posture or offensive one. He was told to get on the ground more than once and the officers were in a fatal funnel. You have something in hand that can be used as a weapon and you dont comply when you are told to get on the ground, well? Add to that when you are in a strange house that you dont know much about except for the layout and are confronted by person(s) who 9 out of 10 have violent history and or combined with drug abuse. Have you ever had to arrest and or fight with someone on bath salts or are methed up? These people are capible of allmost superhuman strenght and they dont listen very well and usually tazers and or mace dont work. By the way have you ever attended any classes taught by certifed trainers in clearing a house? I see that you are or were an Army Sniper. Did you ever take any courses on clearing a house? Not to sound disrespectful. My prayers go out to the mans family for thier loss. Now understand you guys are on the West Coast and Im on the East. We deal with a different attitude with the public and law enforcement. Here in my area we have alot of Country people that dont want there neighborhoods or areas in which they live to turn out like what they see on T.V. and are very much law enforcement friendly. Especially when all most every P.D. in my area even mine offers a Citizens Police Academy which educates the public and is transparent in showing how we do our job and why. It would be a good idea if the Dept. in your areas did that and it would be even better if people took the time and went to the free classes. Thank You for posting that video. Combined with the lack of training, personal opinons absed on whatever, and facts from both law enforcement and the public, that shows me more of why for various reasons that some have the viwes they do. </div></div>

Of course I was trained in room clearing.

IMO when the cop saw the golf club he thought, "fatal funnel- speed is security."

Then he traded that guys life for a smooth building clearing operation. The golf club as a weapon against fully kitted out breachers is not going to be an effective weapon. It is just not likely to cause death.

In security you sometimes have to give something to get something. I think the right answer would be to stop in that first room and yell compliance at the guy with the golf club. <Sure the rest of the entry is botched- but the guy lives to see tomorrow.

Trading a human life for a smooth building entry is just unacceptable. Give that guy another few seconds to comprehend, or hit him with a taser, and the problem will be solved without killing the guy.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I dont know why there is so much what I consider discord or hate towards LEO on this Forum. </div></div>

Video of Utah cops killing a guy with a Golf Club, without shouting for compliance.


I don't know, maybe they shouldn't murder people like this confused guy who heard some not very clear screaming (not very clear with the camera is on our side of the door) and grabbed a golf club to defend himself, and then maybe people can be more supportive.

Gosh they could have at least yelled, drop your weapon, before shooting him three times- it's a golf club, not a firearm.

The guy was in a corner- it was a defensive posture, not an offensive one.

</div></div>

Pretty ballsy statement from a Hide vendor no less.

I can only hope that most of the cops on here get to see this post and what you think about LE and hopefully as a result, you lose business.

Dick </div></div>

Let them see it. Does their use of force simulator call shooting a guy who is in a defensive posture with a golf club, without calling for compliance a victory?

I think the rules are clear. You are supposed to say something like "Police- DROP THE GOLF CLUB!" or "POLICE- DROP YOUR WEAPON!" (a step you can omit of course if the guy has something that poses an immediate threat like a gun). Then if the guy doesn't comply, and you really feel like you can't safely apprehend the guy without loss of life, you are OK to shoot the guy, but probably encouraged to use less than lethal means in the case of this golf club- so the rock star move is calling for compliance and using the taser- a bean bag, rubber bullets etc. That cop saves a life.

If you have a bunch of retards on your entry team who can't speak when they get excited, then they need to be patrol cops- because the SWAT job is going to require some verbal skills and the balls to do things in the right order.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm sure there are a lot of departments with entry people who would have safely apprehended this guy.

This team didn't- they murdered a confused guy without calling for compliance.

I don't see the point in sugar coating it. It's wasn't a simulator- this guy sucked three bullets and died, and it really doesn't look like anyone gave him a chance to live.


And none of this sidebar was to detract from the cops injured in the line of duty- Maybe their unit could do well to get a loudspeaker so when they kick off one of these raids, they can be more assured that the message, "This is Utah Police Department, We have a search warrant" clearly reaches the people inside before the kick in doors.
</span>
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

unless that article is wrong on his service dates..he did not serve in Iraq

Desert Storm/Shield was 1990-91
2nd Iraq war was after 9/11/2001
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I dont know why there is so much what I consider discord or hate towards LEO on this Forum. </div></div>

Video of Utah cops killing a guy with a Golf Club, without shouting for compliance.


I don't know, maybe they shouldn't murder people like this confused guy who heard some not very clear screaming (not very clear with the camera is on our side of the door) and grabbed a golf club to defend himself, and then maybe people can be more supportive.

Gosh they could have at least yelled, drop your weapon, before shooting him three times- it's a golf club, not a firearm.

The guy was in a corner- it was a defensive posture, not an offensive one.

</div></div>

Pretty ballsy statement from a Hide vendor no less.

I can only hope that most of the cops on here get to see this post and what you think about LE and hopefully as a result, you lose business.

Dick </div></div>

Let them see it. Does their use of force simulator call shooting a guy who is in a defensive posture with a golf club, without calling for compliance a victory?

I think the rules are clear. You are supposed to say something like "Police- DROP THE GOLF CLUB!" or "POLICE- DROP YOUR WEAPON!" (a step you can omit of course if the guy has something that poses an immediate threat like a gun). Then if the guy doesn't comply, and you really feel like you can't safely apprehend the guy without loss of life, you are OK to shoot the guy, but probably encouraged to use less than lethal means in the case of this golf club- so the rock star move is calling for compliance and using the taser- a bean bag, rubber bullets etc. That cop saves a life.

If you have a bunch of retards on your entry team who can't speak when they get excited, then they need to be patrol cops- because the SWAT job is going to require some verbal skills and the balls to do things in the right order.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm sure there are a lot of departments with entry people who would have safely apprehended this guy.

This team didn't- they murdered a confused guy without calling for compliance.

I don't see the point in sugar coating it. It's wasn't a simulator- this guy sucked three bullets and died, and it really doesn't look like anyone gave him a chance to live.


And none of this sidebar was to detract from the cops injured in the line of duty- Maybe their unit could do well to get a loudspeaker so when they kick off one of these raids, they can be more assured that the message, "This is Utah Police Department, We have a search warrant" clearly reaches the people inside before the kick in doors.
</span></div></div>


I agree with you...and in doing so, I'm sure I'll be branded a 'cop hater'.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

After watching and rewatching the video, and doing some arm chair Monday morning quaterbacking. Do I feel that he could have / should have told him to drop it and or get on the ground more than one time before shooting YES especially if it would have resulted in compliance and no loss of life. I am sure we both can agree on that. Again as I previously stated that a good day is a execution of a warrant with recovery and no injury to ANYONE. We impliment a non lethal guy in our stack as well as EMTs in the rear. According to the thread the shooting was legally justified. Depending on what Utahs definiton of a weapon or a deadly weapon is it does not have to be a fire arm to be considered a deadly weapon. And as I previously stated depending on that states law all he may have to do is display / brandish a weapon / deadly weapon, combined with him holding it up in the air as he would be ready to strike with it which he was, and nothing between the officer and him is different had he it just held it by his side with the club face pointing at the ground or was leaning on it, and he shot him? I would say not good. Now if he would have yelled more than once and the subject still refused to comply then what? Or if he had a couch or coffee table between the two, instead of open space and something with a meatal tip and at least a 3 foot reach. A human being can cover 7-10 yards within ill say 2 seconds I believe is the statistic with a 1.5 second reaction time ( which is the average precption / reaction time according to Ohio pm me if you want furhter deatils) of the officer. Our ASP batons are only allowed to be used on certain points of the human body because it can be lethal if not used a specific way. All they are is an aluminum tube with a metal tip on the end, soundls like a golf club dont it? You can shrink the gap / reaction time if the subject is on a stimulant. Trust me a ball bat and even a metal golf club can really ruin some ones day. The Officers clearly annlunced multiple times Police Search Warrant before and while making entry. By the way all of us wear really big letters on our helemnets and vests that are clearly and visibly marked SWAT or POLICE or FBI ect. The tasers only work half the time trust me and using mace in a area like that is not a good idea becasue the other entry guys are gonna get it. What were to happen if then you end up with one room in the house having a hostage situation and now the guys are all teary eyed and cant take a shot. Or what say he was hit by a bean bag round and it just so happens that a rib was broken, punctutred a lung, then he goes into surgery and then dies from complications, people gonna still blame us. The media is only gonna show and tell what they feel and none of us know what the breifing entailed prior to the entry as far as threat level and none of us know what was found in the house or any other info about the guy other than what the family said.

I think I / we may have taken over the thread if you would like sir please feel free to P.M. me so that if you choose to continue without any ill will, it will not further detract from the original thread / topic.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DVC Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No Knocks = Police State, end of story.

You can claim it's to save the children all you want, but in the end it endangers people on both sides of the law.

You would be hard pressed to present a condition that required one over isolating the BG and taking him down. Any condition that gives you enough time to bring in a SWAT team to serve a no-knock is a condition that could be handled without such tactics.

How many children did the Feds burn to death because they chose this method over apprehending Koresh at the local town weeks earlier as they had in the past?

How many people have been gunned down in their own homes because of a wrong address? </div></div>

You're fucking ridiculous.

This wasn't a no knock service. Nor was it conducted by a tactical team. Try reading the goddamn story.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 11B101ABN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DVC Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No Knocks = Police State, end of story.

You can claim it's to save the children all you want, but in the end it endangers people on both sides of the law.

You would be hard pressed to present a condition that required one over isolating the BG and taking him down. Any condition that gives you enough time to bring in a SWAT team to serve a no-knock is a condition that could be handled without such tactics.

How many children did the Feds burn to death because they chose this method over apprehending Koresh at the local town weeks earlier as they had in the past?

How many people have been gunned down in their own homes because of a wrong address? </div></div>

You're fucking ridiculous.

This wasn't a no knock service. Nor was it conducted by a tactical team. Try reading the goddamn story.

</div></div>

You more ridiculous, you big dummy! Try reading the who thread up to the point where I made my comment and you will see what I was responding to. it wasn't legalizing Mary-J either, big stupid head!
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

All bullshit aside. But if you walk thru the door you have to deal with what you find on the other side.I have been watchin the TV for a while and seen how the cop's out here do things.
Hell I dont know how they are still alive. One thing I can tell you. If you bust my door down in the middle of the night I will shoot you and shoot to kill you ! and I do that kind of stuff pretty good. Cops need to do the math on the work they do.
Is it easy to walk up to a guy and ask him to come with you?
Hell you can get most to put the handcuffs on themselves.
But when you start kicking in doors folks get funny and start grabbing their own guns.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

What's wrong with tricking the guy into a safe environment, then apprehending him?
The free TV tactic seems to work wonderfully.
I would rather stake-out the perpetrator, then move on him while he is unaware... and under-gunned.

I can't help to ponder if it is the illegal steroid use that fuels the Wiatt Earp mentality? Which puts all citizens in danger for a myriad of reasons.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pretty ballsy statement from a Hide vendor no less.

I can only hope that most of the cops on here get to see this post and what you think about LE and hopefully as a result, you lose business.

Dick </div></div>

That an opinion offered with sound reasoning is only met with hope of financial ruin; doesn't bode well for your argument. Hopefully you aren't a law enforcement officer.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah


Cops used stupid tactics => cops got shot.

They could have arrested the guy at Wal Mart rather than kicking in his door. But those cops wanted to play Rambo and they paid the price. Perhaps the department will think twice before using Rambo tactics in the future.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Win_94</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't help to ponder if it is the illegal steroid use that fuels the Wiatt Earp mentality? </div></div>

Cops need to take a piss test for steroid use at least twice yearly.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

The dead officer:

981-15asv3.AuSt.55.jpg


And just so you know, Gary Coleman lives in Utah:

425.ad.Coleman.012510.jpg
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Ideally, yes. It's immoral to tell others how they might spend their leisure time so long as they aren't actively hurting others, and unthinkable that they can do it via the use of extreme force which should be reserved for a minuscule number of situations (the vast majority of which not involving pot smokers).
</div></div>
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? Cops don't write the laws, they are paid to enforce them. I don't agree with some of the laws on the books myself, I could care less if all currently illegal drugs were legalized tomorrow. I don't preach this to my coworkers because they hold no more ability to change it than you do.

I've talked at great length about this sort of thing here and elsewhere. Cops deciding which laws are worthy of enforcing is a bad idea. We aren't paid to do it, we aren't trained to do it. Yes there is a line in the sand (for me personally) where I'd lay the badge down on the bosses desk and subject my family to poverty but I'm not doing that so folks can smoke weed. I'd love to see the war on drugs ended tomorrow, if for no other reason than a morbid curiosity to see what happens but it isn't up to me or anyone else in my profession. </div></div>


The cop is an easy target. Nothing more than a source to vent frustration, and in hopes, get a pathetic rise out of him or induce shame for doing their job. Obviously some pro-pot individuals here feel that this level of narcotics enforcement should not get attention. I have a better idea. Got to the supermarket, using the same wisdom in these posts, take a purchase to the cashier, then argue with her. Tell her she has no right to charge this much money. You work hard for you money and she should be ashamed of herself for what you perceive as theft of you money. Then walk out and realize you accomplished nothing. Except now there is someone who feels a bit less willing to want to do her job for the next customer. Nice work.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I totally agree with what you're saying, eleaf.

Why couldn't they have picked the guy up while driving to or from work, instead of the middle of the night? Then, a search warrant could've been obtained for search and seizure of the premises.

It wasn't too long ago when guys were raiding houses after announcing themselves as police and decked out in full uniform/riot gear, forcing entry into the home or a simple knock, and then telling everyone to get on the floor while the 'officers' robbed the place. These were guys impersonating a police officer and it was in Tulsa.

I can tell you first hand that if someone tries coming through my door, having only announced themselves as police without proper verification/identification before entering, people are going to be killed and especially when you're talking during the night. </div></div>

I like your mindset sir! You are a man of logic and reason living in a land devoid of both!
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

The vague and minimal detail has led to ideas that are just as vague and conter productive at the same time. Those suggestions seem like good ideas. However no one knows how the search warrant was written. There has to be a decision made. Maybe they had enough PC to obtain a search warrant of the house, but not enough to get an arrest warrent on the suspect. Or the only time they could find the guy was at his house. It is usually much better to serve the warrant when no one is home, specificly to avoid incidents like this. Recon info is usually done to account for potential dangers like guns, dogs, multiple occupants, possible chemical exposures, and what the habits of the occupants are. If non of this was taken into consideration, then there is no suprise that this happened. I dont know if the officers did their job as best they could or if they just chose to wing it. Sometimes even the best laid plans go to shit, ususally due to an unknown factor. No one here, myself included, has any right to say boo and have it taken seriously. No one here is an informed source with knowlege of the actual incident, and anything said is based off of a vaguely written newspapaer article. It is all assumptions, accustations and opinions.

Try to offer up a little more detail and I am sure that an actual rational thought would have the ability to be born.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Intrepid4576</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I totally agree with what you're saying, eleaf.

Why couldn't they have picked the guy up while driving to or from work, instead of the middle of the night? Then, a search warrant could've been obtained for search and seizure of the premises.

It wasn't too long ago when guys were raiding houses after announcing themselves as police and decked out in full uniform/riot gear, forcing entry into the home or a simple knock, and then telling everyone to get on the floor while the 'officers' robbed the place. These were guys impersonating a police officer and it was in Tulsa.

I can tell you first hand that if someone tries coming through my door, having only announced themselves as police without proper verification/identification before entering, people are going to be killed and especially when you're talking during the night. </div></div>

I like your mindset sir! You are a man of logic and reason living in a land devoid of both! </div></div>

Way to go dipshits you're thinking now. This shitbag pot grower would never fight it out in a public place with hundreds more innocent victims around.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Cops used stupid tactics => cops got shot.

They could have arrested the guy at Wal Mart rather than kicking in his door. But those cops wanted to play Rambo and they paid the price. Perhaps the department will think twice before using Rambo tactics in the future.</div></div>

So doing him at a Wally World is a smart move to you? Wow. You're apparently a tactical genius.
 
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we are all dumber now having read this....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.

Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div> </div></div>

Possible that you were dumb to begin with.

What I'm finding alarming is the way veterans who are under the suspicion of the law are right off the bat viewed as dangerous and needed to be approached in the dead of night.

It seems to tie in to that 'analysis' on domestic terrorism where returning vets were identified as possible terrorists - especially the Oath Keepers. </div></div>

It's not just returning vets that are viewed as somehow so dangerous as to warrant squads of heavily armed men to bust in in the middle of the night. It's everyone they view that way.

These kinds of raids happen over a hundred times a day. Violence is bound to happen. Surely there is a better way that doesn't put either the lives of the ALLEGED criminals at risk, nor police officers.</div></div>

Like you give a shit about the Officers.
 
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