6CM vs 6CM....huh????

[exodus]

So I'm going to re barrel and it sounds like 6mm and the Berger 105 hybrid is the ticket for inside 800yds. Between the 6XC and the 6 Creedmoor, I'm leaning towards the Creedmoor. However I keep hearing about another 6CM, the 6mm Competition Match. This 6CM sounds almost mythical, guys using H1000 shooting the 105s or the 115s and getting like 4,000 plus rounds of barrel life, which I find to be very hard to believe. So can someone explain to me the true ballistic differences between the 6 Competition Match and the 6 Creedmoor? Unless someone can extol the virtues of the Competition Match I'm leaning toward the Creedmoor primarily because I don't want to fire form brass, and either buying 6CM brass or necking down 6.5CM brass is both price economical and easy. Also with a speed limit in place at PRS events I'm not sure what the Competition Match can offer that the Creedmoor can't.

Someone with more knowledge, and or experience, please educate me.

Thanks

 

[Boltfluter]

Matt,

I tend to agree with you about the mystical properties while burning more powder. A .243 is already a barrel burner in the first place without blowing the shoulder forward for more case capacity. One advantage with the Creedmore is a shorter OAL for more room to seat the bullet out where it belongs. My choice would be the Creedmore. I look forward to the other responses.

Regards,
Paul

 

[zmann]

Those "105" Hybrids are good out to 1200 Found that out this past weekend. Very impressive.

Regarding the 6 creedmoor brass... GAP sells em.

 

[exodus]

Thanks zmann, my 4 was supposed to be a 5....

 

[InkedIan]

Matt,

I tend to agree with you about the mystical properties while burning more powder. A .243 is already a barrel burner in the first place without blowing the shoulder forward for more case capacity. One advantage with the Creedmore is a shorter OAL for more room to sat the bullet out where it belongs. My choice would be the Creedmore. I look forward to the other responses.

Regards,
Paul

H1000 is the key... It's a single based very cool burning powder. When people say the 243 is a barrel burner what they mean is that it scorches the throat leading to throat erosion, fast fouling, and inaccuracy. The use of H1000 seems to slow this down dramatically.

 

[InkedIan]

So I'm going to re barrel and it sounds like 6mm and the Berger 105 hybrid is the ticket for inside 800yds. Between the 6XC and the 6 Creedmoor, I'm leaning towards the Creedmoor. However I keep hearing about another 6CM, the 6mm Competition Match. This 6CM sounds almost mythical, guys using H1000 shooting the 105s or the 115s and getting like 4,000 plus rounds of barrel life, which I find to be very hard to believe. So can someone explain to me the true ballistic differences between the 6 Competition Match and the 6 Creedmoor? Unless someone can extol the virtues of the Competition Match I'm leaning toward the Creedmoor primarily because I don't want to fire form brass, and either buying 6CM brass or necking down 6.5CM brass is both price economical and easy. Also with a speed limit in place at PRS events I'm not sure what the Competition Match can offer that the Creedmoor can't.

Someone with more knowledge, and or experience, please educate me.

Thanks

I haven't heard of any 6mm creedmoors shooting 115gr bullets at 3150 without being at or very near max pressure, using coatings, and using hot burning faster powders. While "from what i've heard" the 6mm comp match can do that with ease(not near max) while using slow burning cooler burning powders which extends the life of the barrel and brass. I know when I run hot loads in my 243 the primer pockets in the brass are the first to go(stretched out) and the barrels throat is showing mild fire cracking with about 200rds down the tube(rl17, 115gr dtac bn, around 3140fps).

 

[Boltfluter]

H1000 is the key... It's a single based very cool burning powder. When people say the 243 is a barrel burner what they mean is that it scorches the throat leading to throat erosion, fast fouling, and inaccuracy. The use of H1000 seems to slow this down dramatically.

This begs the question of "what do you do if your particular 6CM will not shoot with H1000"? This potential problem would most likely stop me from trying this caliber in the first place, although it does sound interesting.

Regards,
Paul

 

[InkedIan]

This begs the question of "what do you do if your particular 6CM will not shoot with H1000"? This potential problem would most likely stop me from trying this caliber in the first place, although it does sound interesting.

Regards,
Paul

I do believe there are alternatives to H1000 that have the same characteristics. I just can't think of them off the top of my head.

 

[TannerGun]

7828 works quite well in my 243 AI, bet it'd be a sure go in the Comp Match and would likely provide great velocity.

 

[steve123]

I do believe there are alternatives to H1000 that have the same characteristics. I just can't think of them off the top of my head.

Just guessing H-4831 might work if H-1000 doesn't for some reason. H-4831 isn't too much faster the H1000.

 

[Gray]

My buddy is running h1000 in his 243AI, about 49-50 grains and is getting 3080 fps with a 105 Hornady BTHP. He has had several conversations with 6 Competition Match owners who have gone through several barrels. They got between 3,000-4,000 rounds on theirs before it went south. BUT, they also have a strict regiment of cleaning their barrels with Iosso Bore Paste every 500 rounds or so. It can be done, but recoil is definitely more than 42 or so grains of H4350. Low recoil is one of the pros to shooting a 6mm, so is you can handle more recoil, and 8 grains more powder PER round, then give it a try.

 

[varmint slayer]

My buddy is running h1000 in his 243AI, about 49-50 grains and is getting 3080 fps with a 105 Hornady BTHP. He has had several conversations with 6 Competition Match owners who have gone through several barrels. They got between 3,000-4,000 rounds on theirs before it went south. BUT, they also have a strict regiment of cleaning their barrels with Iosso Bore Paste every 500 rounds or so. It can be done, but recoil is definitely more than 42 or so grains of H4350. Low recoil is one of the pros to shooting a 6mm, so is you can handle more recoil, and 8 grains more powder PER round, then give it a try.

If 42 grains of H4350 pushes a 105 @ about 3050-3100 FPS and 46-50 grains of H1000 shoots a 105 @ the same speed, explain to me where the extra recoil comes into play?

 

[Gray]

If 42 grains of H4350 pushes a 105 @ about 3050-3100 FPS and 46-50 grains of H1000 shoots a 105 @ the same speed, explain to me where the extra recoil comes into play?

You are burning 8 grains more powder?? We shot H4350/H1000 side by side, 5 rounds each, the 50 grain load of H1000 kicks more than 43 gr H4350, OR, more powder = BIGGER BOOM!

 

[varmint slayer]

You are burning 8 grains more powder?? We shot H4350/H1000 side by side, 5 rounds each, the 50 grain load of H1000 kicks more than 43 gr H4350, OR, more powder = BIGGER BOOM!

I'm no expert so forgive me if I am off base here but if 42 grains of H4350 generates X pressure which pushes the 105 @ Y FPS, and 46-50 grains of H1000 also pushes the 105 @ Y FPS then wouldn't the pressures be relatively the same which in turn would mean the explosions have pretty close to the same energy? I would think the 4350 is a short sharp spike while the H1000 would be a slower and more gradual spike. I could be way off here but I'm having a hard time grasping that 6-8 more grains but the same muzzle velocity would result in a noticeable increase on recoil.

 

[Gray]

You are right, it's a shorter/sharper recoil with the H4350, while the H1000 is more gradual, can't explain much more except the H1000 just plain kicks more than the H4350.

 

[lencomatt]

One of my buddies has a 6 Competition Match, its built on an Accuarcy International AX platform, 30" barrel, and a can so about 17's. He says its right about 3050fps with H100 and I can say that after shooting it, it has about as much recoil as a pellet gun. Its rediculous how easy to shoot it is. He told me he had about 3800 rounds though it before a rebarrel. I will probably rechamber a 243 I have in 6Comp Match here pretty soon.

 

[JGorski]

One of my buddies has a 6 Competition Match, its built on an Accuracy International AX platform, 30" barrel, and a can so about 17's. He says its right about 3050fps with H100 and I can say that after shooting it, it has about as much recoil as a pellet gun. Its rediculous how easy to shoot it is. He told me he had about 3800 rounds though it before a rebarrel. I will probably rechamber a 243 I have in 6Comp Match here pretty soon.

Im hoping to get over 3200 with my 6 Creed shooting 105s. 28" tube.

 

[TannerGun]

I can't imagine there's enough recoil shooting a 105 at any speed near 3200, with ANY load/rifle combo to complain about, but that's just me.....

 

[Cascade_Sherpa]

Pardon the ignorance, but what is the parent cartridge of the 6mm competition match and why does its characteristics lend itself to such a long barrel life compared to any of the .243 cartridges....

 

[exodus]

.243 is the parent cartridge, but the shoulder is blown forward to 31 degrees. I'm with you though, how does that combination increase barrel life compared to other variations?

 

[exodus]

Also, am I to assume that the Creedmoor does not have enough case capacity to push the 105s to around 3100 fps like the Competition Match can with H1000?

 

[JGorski]

Also, am I to assume that the Creedmoor does not have enough case capacity to push the 105s to around 3100 fps like the Competition Match can with H1000?

If my 43grain load of RE17 doesnt show high pressure in my 6 Creed were talking way over 3100fps. And there's plenty of room left in the boiler room with 43grs(below the shoulder). Now 43grs H4831sc fills up into the shoulder and you wont get to 3100 with that powder.

 

[exodus]

My post was confusing. Is there enough case capacity to load H1000 in the Creedmoor and get the 105s to 3100fps?

What kind of barrel life are you expecting from your Creedmoor?

 

[varmint slayer]

I can't imagine there's enough recoil shooting a 105 at any speed near 3200, with ANY load/rifle combo to complain about, but that's just me.....

Amen brother...

 

[InkedIan]

.243 is the parent cartridge, but the shoulder is blown forward to 31 degrees. I'm with you though, how does that combination increase barrel life compared to other variations?

"They" say with the sharper shoulder it helps direct the hot gases and powder away from the throat thus reducing throat wear... Now in my mind it will have very little effect because if you are using boat tail bullets they will just redirect the gases toward the throat..... So i'm thinking the cooler burning powders are the real key.

 

[KYS]

If you want speed the 105gr bullets can be replaced for the 95gr Berger VLD. That will get you upwards of 3250, easily.

 

[InkedIan]

If you want speed the 105gr bullets can be replaced for the 95gr Berger VLD. That will get you upwards of 3250, easily.

I think that defeats the idea of sending the highest b.c. bullet as fast as you can. I also think most big matches are now enforcing the 3150 fps speed limit to save steel... Hence the idea of a cartridge that pushes the 115gr bullets 3150fps in a short action cartridge while using cooler slow burning powders to extend barrel life.


I must say i wouldn't do it just because of fire forming. I'm too cheap and lazy...

 

[KYS]

I think that defeats the idea of sending the highest b.c. bullet as fast as you can. I also think most big matches are now enforcing the 3150 fps speed limit to save steel... Hence the idea of a cartridge that pushes the 115gr bullets 3150fps in a short action cartridge while using cooler slow burning powders to extend barrel life.

I know what the point is.... you all have been talking speeds. I just suggested how to get them. If you want to shoot a match the Berger 105gr Hybrid is the way to roll. The 115 DTAC does not compare to that bullet. The 105 Berger outmatches it.

 

[InkedIan]

I know what the point is.... you all have been talking speeds. I just suggested how to get them. If you want to shoot a match the Berger 105gr Hybrid is the way to roll. The 115 DTAC does not compare to that bullet. The 105 Berger outmatches it.

Yes and no, a lot people seem to think that the .588 b.c. is BS yet when I use it with my rifle it is correct and out preforms the 105gr hybrids and hits with more energy on the steel which means a lot when need that "ding" or that movement in the steel.

 

[Quack303Head]

If your really want some information look it up on the 6br website. Jo Hendrix was the developer and has been using one for years. I have 2200 on my rifle now and my throat has moved substantially but still shorts good.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Joe will tell you himself that 90% of the barrel life extension with his Competition Match chambering is the powder selection and not pushing the velocity too much. The shoulder angle helps a little.

 

[KYS]

Yes and no, a lot people seem to think that the .588 b.c. is BS yet when I use it with my rifle it is correct and out preforms the 105gr hybrids and hits with more energy on the steel which means a lot when need that "ding" or that movement in the steel.

The 115 DTAC comes pointed from the factory as well. Put that same pointing process on the 105gr Berger Hybrid and be prepared to be shocked. I have done a lot of shooting with this caliber, I have some barrels that preferred the 115 DTAC and some preferred the 105gr Hornady BTHP. But then I found the Berger 105gr Hybrid and it is amazingly flat and accurate.

 

[InkedIan]

The 115 DTAC comes pointed from the factory as well. Put that same pointing process on the 105gr Berger Hybrid and be prepared to be shocked. I have done a lot of shooting with this caliber, I have some barrels that preferred the 115 DTAC and some preferred the 105gr Hornady BTHP. But then I found the Berger 105gr Hybrid and it is amazingly flat and accurate.

Idk honestly.... I haven't pointed the bergers, but the meplats on the hybrids are small and sharp from the factory... So i can't imagine it would show a lot of improvement, but like i said i haven't tried it.

 

[KYS]

Josh @ Copper Creek swears by them in a bolt gun.... I'm waiting on my order of them and will report back.
I do shoot 105gr Bergers in my 243 and they were flatter shooting then the 115 DTAC.

 

[InkedIan]

Josh @ Copper Creek swears by them in a bolt gun.... I'm waiting on my order of them and will report back.
I do shoot 105gr Bergers in my 243 and they were flatter shooting then the 115 DTAC.

Oh, i'm sure if you shoot them at a higher velocity then of course they will shoot flatter, but for those that are limited by a speed limit of 3100-3150fps ive seen a benefit to the 115gr dtacs. That's all im saying

Sorry OP for getting a bit off subject.

 

[bward]

As far as pointing the 105 Hybrids, I saw about a 5% increase to around .575 G1.

 

[KYS]

Oh, i'm sure if you shoot them at a higher velocity then of course they will shoot flatter, but for those that are limited by a speed limit of 3100-3150fps ive seen a benefit to the 115gr dtacs. That's all im saying

Sorry OP for getting a bit off subject.

Where did I ever say we were shooting them faster? They are match loads.... most matches enforce a under 3200 fps rule.

 

[InkedIan]

Where did I ever say we were shooting them faster? They are match loads.... most matches enforce a under 3200 fps rule.

I'm using shooter ballistic calculator(which i've found to be very accurate) and with all the conditions, speed(3140fps), and equipment the same except for the bullets. I found that the 115gr dtac drops .2mils less and hits with more energy when using .588 g1 b.c.(which i've tested and found to be accurate) and the .278 g7 b.c. for the 105gr hybrids which is recommended. I'll try to upload screen shots of the data if you would like...

 

[JGorski]

Where did I ever say we were shooting them faster? They are match loads.... most matches enforce a under 3200 fps rule.

What kinda matches are we talking about here? Cuz if my 6 Creed wants to run faster than 3200 Im going to let her, yeah, it's a girl.

 

[InkedIan]

What kinda matches are we talking about here? Cuz if my 6 Creed wants to run faster than 3200 Im going to let her, yeah, it's a girl.

There's a few out there... It's just to save the steel and some believe it also evens the playing field. The few that i've shot didn't have a limit though.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

I've shot the 6mm Competition Match some.

Fire forming brass is a snap.
Winchester brand .243 brass is the way to go
With a 28 inch Brux 1 in 8 twist barrel I have pushed naked Hybrid 105s as fast as 3,348fps using a charge of 50g of H-1000 (5.2mil/5.4mil to 1,000y). With this barrel 48g of H-1000 puts the round right at 3,200fps.
Accuracy has been excellent out to 1,000 yards.
I do not chase the lands just load to a 2.810 OCL the round fits a ACIS mag and feeds good.
I've shot the 3,348fps load a ton at my personal steels at 200 yards with absolutely no damage done so I don't know what the 3,200fps speed limit is all about.

So far I am happy with the round.

 

[KYS]

I'm using shooter ballistic calculator(which i've found to be very accurate) and with all the conditions, speed(3140fps), and equipment the same except for the bullets. I found that the 115gr dtac drops .2mils less and hits with more energy when using .588 g1 b.c.(which i've tested and found to be accurate) and the .278 g7 b.c. for the 105gr hybrids which is recommended. I'll try to upload screen shots of the data if you would like...

Run an even load. The 115 DTAC comes from Tubb BN coated and pointed already. Buy a partial box of Berger 105gr Hybrids and have them pointed and coated. Then you tell me which one flies better. You even say that you haven't pointed them before, have you even tried them in the cartridge we are talking about? The 115 is not a bad bullet, but it is old news. There are better options out there.

 

[InkedIan]

Run an even load. The 115 DTAC comes from Tubb BN coated and pointed already. Buy a partial box of Berger 105gr Hybrids and have them pointed and coated. Then you tell me which one flies better. You even say that you haven't pointed them before, have you even tried them in the cartridge we are talking about? The 115 is not a bad bullet, but it is old news. There are better options out there.

I have shot the regular ones.... I've already commented on the pointed ones and this gentleman has tested them.

As far as pointing the 105 Hybrids, I saw about a 5% increase to around .575 G1.

 

[KYS]

I have tested them extensively. IMHO they outperform the 115 DTAC out of the box. Yes, they are a bit heavier, that also slows you down.

 

[InkedIan]

I have tested them extensively. IMHO they outperform the 115 DTAC out of the box. Yes, they are a bit heavier, that also slows you down.

I guess we'll agree to disagree lol but last time I checked weight isn't the only factor in external ballistics.

 

[KYS]

I guess we'll agree to disagree lol but last time I checked weight isn't the only factor in external ballistics.

Either is the BC that you keep calculating. I go off the data that is displayed down range. Dont let that BC number be a crutch.

 

[InkedIan]

Either is the BC that you keep calculating. I go off the data that is displayed down range. Dont let that BC number be a crutch.

It's not a crutch... It's math. I've found the ballistic calculator is accurate through shooting and testing the data I enter in and the data it gives me not through trusting or guessing. I'm not a fan boy of products..... I don't care about names and I don't sell anything so if something works better for me I use it. The 115gr Dtac's perform better for me so i use them... I understand you disagree and that's fine.

 

[KYS]

Whatever helps you feel better about it! Go for it.

 

[KYS]

It's not a crutch... It's math. I've found the ballistic calculator is accurate through shooting and testing the data I enter in and the data it gives me not through trusting or guessing. I'm not a fan boy of products..... I don't care about names and I don't sell anything so if something works better for me I use it. The 115gr Dtac's perform better for me so i use them... I understand you disagree and that's fine.

I'm just saying. If you are going to quote numbers, get them right first. If you want simple I will break it down for you:

G1 BC of a 115 DTAC - .585 (these are pointed and coated from Tubb)
G1 BC of a Berger 105gr Hybrid - .594 (pointed and coated the same way)

That is simple math, the Berger wins. That's hard data from Copper Creek, I would vote to say Josh loads more of that then anyone else out there.
George Gardner who developed the 6mm Creedmoor will even agree the 105 out performs the 115. Hell, I have 115 loads that are collecting dust since the hybrid came out!

I just want people to have the facts. And this is all factual information from Ballistic and C4.

 

[InkedIan]

I'm just saying. If you are going to quote numbers, get them right first. If you want simple I will break it down for you:

G1 BC of a 115 DTAC - .585 (these are pointed and coated from Tubb)
G1 BC of a Berger 105gr Hybrid - .594 (pointed and coated the same way)

That is simple math, the Berger wins. That's hard data from Copper Creek, I would vote to say Josh loads more of that then anyone else out there.
George Gardner who developed the 6mm Creedmoor will even agree the 105 out performs the 115. Hell, I have 115 loads that are collecting dust since the hybrid came out!

I just want people to have the facts. And this is all factual information from Ballistic and C4.

Ive never seen that b.c. for the berger hybrids before but if it's real thats cool! When they start making 500 bullet packs coated and pointed i'll probably get some and use them.... All the info I posted were based off real numbers i've used and personal experience with dtacs and regular hybrids not second hand information from someone trying to sell a product. I hope those numbers are real! I'll get me some.