700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

[gixxerdims]

Hey guys...brand new to the forum...tried looking around for a while and this forum seemed to be pretty busy and full of useful advice...

Quick rundown - been shooting about 10-15 years now, mainly .22 and a while back i picked up a R700 SPS Tactical 308.
I have Leupold rings holding a Bushnell Elite 6500 4.5-30 scope and the rifle looks great.
However, it doesnt shoot so great and not too sure if its me or the rifle.

I've tried putting groups of 3 at 100m and ill generally get groups at around 2" sometimes even 3". Ill get 2 within an inch of each other, and then a third round (not necessarily the 3rd one shot of the group) will be couple inches away.

Not too sure exactly what i'm doing wrong.

I do know however, that there is tremendous kick from this rifle, compared to the .22.
I've noticed it sometimes kicking to the left and then other times to the right.

I'm shooting off a Harris Bipod, and using my left hand under the butt to give the elevation.
I shot about 5 groups and then an older guy at the range today fired a few rounds and grouped under 1" by holding the frong of the stock down, as in pulling down the front just behind the bipod.
I tried to do the same straight after and managed to get a group where all 3 bullets made 1 hole (triangle).

I was absolutely shocked at the differnce it made, HOWEVER, i couldn't replicate this again for about another 6-7 groups i shot after!

Not too sure exactly what i'm doing wrong, or if i was lucky with the small group or is there any suggestions on how i can find out if its me or the rifle, as at this stage i'm also fearing it could be the rifle.

 

[gixxerdims]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

just another note - tried few different ammunitions as well, all factory loaded, 150gr, 168gr and 180gr

 

[58blackflag]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

The problem is most likely from the stock contacting the barrel when you use the bipod. those Hogue stocks are a bit flexible and can contact the barrel especially when shooting off of a bipod.
You can either replace the stock with a aftermarket fiberglass one or I've heard of some people having luck relieving the area under/around the barrel in the stock using a dremmel tool or something like it to remove some of the material.
I replaced my stock with a Bell and Carlson Medalist. Its much stiffer and solves the issue. Good luck!

 

[Skigolfmike]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

I replaced the Houge overmolded stock with a B&C Medalist. Mine shoots sub moa. That and consider replacing the trigger too.

The gun will jump around less when you learn to get good behind the gun.

 

[buffybuster]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

You're probably trying to shoot in "free recoil" like you do with 22lr's. That usually doesn't work too well with a light rifle in .308Win. Try preloading the stock (some forward pressure) so the rifle doesn't come back so fast (you might be flinching/anticipating recoil). Also make sure everything is torqued correctly. Limit the number of rounds, until you get comfortable with the recoil.

 

[Hook Creek]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

what factory ammo have you tried? Seems like you still have to get use to shooting the new stick, but I bet ammo has lots to do with it. I have never had any satisfactory results without loading my own.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

If the fgm 168's or the 168 amaxs don't work then it's probably you & by saying that I mean no offense what so ever. It's merely that I mean you could be flinching. I only am posting this bc I have the same rifle and it's a solid 1 moa gun with the cheapest of match grade ammo at 100 yards. Some folks might think this is dumb but I simply loosened the floor plate Allen screws and then retightened them to where the barrel was free floated at all times. The rear screw is what pulls down the barrel, so just retighten it to where the barrel is just far enough away it doesn't touch the stock. But MAKE SURE to not be careless & not tighten the screws enough. Or just buy another stock. But whatever you do nothing is as important as practice

 

[gixxerdims]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

Hey thanks for the feedback so far guys...
I don't think I've tried match ammo more, I've tried federal premium blue pack (haha sorry cant remember name) and also the fed prem in nosler ballistic tip.
Among that Remington core lokt 180gr. Can't remember other types, few Winchester types.

As for the free floating, I took it to my LGS and they cleared the front stock so it's free floating while using a bipod.

They checked the landings, torques, crown etc and fired few rounds getting a group of around an inch at 50m, and said at 100m it would be bout inch n half to two inches which is satisfactory for these rifles using factory loads. Personally I think that's BS.

I've been looking at other stocks n might get a Macmillan A5, I just hope this will fix the issue n there isn't anything wrong with my action, or even better, if the prob is me at least I know it can be fixed over time and experience.

 

[Russ D]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

You cannot free float a flimsy stock that touches the barrel under any pressure. Ditch the Hogue and you will notice the difference. I shoot a bone stock SPS .308 tac except for an HS stock I installed. All of my groups are between .5 and .75 moa.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

You are most certainly correct. Was just trying to give op an idea that works for me.

 

[gixxerdims]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

Ok will look into a new stock.

For those of you that had the same rifle with the Hogue stock, what type of groups were you getting with factory ammo before you made the switch across to a new stock?

 

[dfwm]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

I am recoil sensitive but can shoot even a .338 Mag Ok for 5 shots. A light .308 hammers me after 50-60 rounds and I have had enough. So I doubt your grouping problem is totally due to flinching.

You should be able to free float the barrel so try that and ditch the bipod. Get a good front rest and rear bag. If you still cannot get it to group, try placing a shim in the front and putting up pressure on the barrel at the end of the forearm.

When shooting off the front rest be sure the gun is placed in exactly the same spot for each shot.

Lastly, have another guy shoot it who shoots good groups. If it will not shoot for him you have a gun and/or ammo issue.

 

[dawson08]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

+1 on it being the stock flexing and you needing a diffrent one. I had the same problem out of my 700 sps long range in 7mm ultra mag.

 

[CLNDESL]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

I have a new sps tactical with the hogue stock and at 100 yds groups are .6 to .75 off a Harris bipod and today I shot a 1.02 at 200yds. But I handload. I have a bell and carlson medalist that will be here tommorow so hopefully that helps too. I was able to hold 1 Moa at 916 yds. Not bad with a factory rifle. I'm using 178gr amaxs and varget.

 

[dwtaylorpdx]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

Most any .308 should hold a sub inch group at 100 with the Balistic tips. While they are not the "best" for long long range according to most, they are a good bullet and have performed pretty well in every gun I've used them in... Always consistent for me. It sure seems like very few people have luck with the big guns in a Hogue, Lighter guns (22 and 223) seem ot be less sensitive to hogue flu than most.

Dave

 

[CTown137]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

I run a SPS Tac, and dropped it into a HS Precision stock. The Hogue is good as a hunting stock, but for precision they are lacking. I too am new to long range shooting as only have150 rounds through my Remmy. The biggest thing I have found with groups it is usually the loose nut behind the scope (that would be me). Body position is key, it will help with recoil control and repeatable shot placement.

I run Southwest Ammunition's 175 smk and the rifle will easily hold under 1 moa.

Keep shooting and have fun, grab a new stock, and see if u can adjust the xmark trigger down to good weight or replaceit all together.

 

[DeputyTD]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

I too had a 700 SPS and was having trouble getting a consistent grouping. Per the advice of people on the forum I purchased a Bell and Carlson stock and a Timney trigger and now she is a shooter. Both are great but if I could only afford one I would go with the stock. But a good crisp trigger is definitely worth looking into.

 

[hewlett260]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

Check the twist rate on your barrel as well. Mine is a 1 in 12" and is about four years old. In the Hogue stock it wouldn't hold an inch. I put it in an AICS and it was between .5-.65". However I cannot get it to group past 200m with any bullet over 155 verified between me and three other people. It's now getting a new barrel and turning into a 260 rem.
Also a guy from work picked one up about a week ago. The exact same as mine was brand new but he has a 10" twist and replaced his stock with an HS and groups better than mine will with heavier bullets. Just another possibility to think about.

 

[Shooter_308]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

A friend came to me with the same issue a few months ago, only he was shooting a 30-06 after only shooting .22. He was purely overcompensating for recoil and assuming recoil before the gun even went off. The large caliber made him nervous and it turn caused him to shove against the rifle as he shot. After i walked him through it, he was putting less than 1 MOA groups at 100 yards all day.

The crappy stock doesn't help much either especially if you're rocking a bipod. Body position, parallax, cheek weld and concentration on basic shooting techniques are going to help you a lot.

The best thing you could do for that rifle at the moment is trash that stock and get yourself a new higher quality stock.

 

[gixxerdims]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

Any thoughts on stocks?
I've seen the MDT Tac-21 which will cost me about 1k to fit out...
or there is the Macmillan A5 but i still need to bed that as well...

Thoughts?

 

[CopperMach]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

Look at chassis systems as well. Typically they will not need to be bedded and include a magazine system. I am using the KRG Whiskey 3 chassis and it made a huge improvement over the factory hogue stock.

 

[fdkay]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

Right now, I'm going to say shooter error.
You say that sometimes the rifle recoils to the left and sometimes to the right.
That tells me that you are not consistent in your positioning and the way you apply the stock to your shoulder.
I'm also going to say that flinching and trigger manipulation are probably an issue.

 

[The Busby]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

I would recommend having someone with experience teach you about gun manipulation, the proper way to approach the rifle, and then time behind the gun. Fundamentals are everything.

 

[jwp6114]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

get a nice stock, get a rear bag, get rid of the factory junk trigger. stick with the lighter bullets, 168's (i reccomend 168 Federal GMM) did verry well in my 12 twist sps. check paralax, Load the bipod, dry fire 10 times, then ho hot and slowly apply pressure rearward on the triger.

do all that and then if it don't shoot let my gun smith true the action and shorten the throat.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gixxerdims</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any thoughts on stocks?</div></div>

see-----> http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...437#Post3377437

 

[jwp6114]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

hey, gixxerdims...

just realized where your from, same place as my favorite comedian Jim Jefferies...

Fly me out there and I'll spend a week shoot'n with ya.

 

[gixxerdims]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWP6114</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hey, gixxerdims...

just realized where your from, same place as my favorite comedian Jim Jefferies...

Fly me out there and I'll spend a week shoot'n with ya. </div></div>

ahaha i wish...if i had the $$ i wouldve changed the stock loooooong ago...
Its bad enough i don't hand load...

Look as far as getting the fundamentals, is there anything i can read/watch that can assist me? The range for me is about a 90+min drive each way...i try get out there once every few months and each time i do i fire off around 60 rounds or so...

the 22 range is only 25 mins away and that one i'm very comfortable with..

 

[gixxerdims]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

speaking of which, how do i get access to the online training?

 

[Huckleberry75]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gixxerdims</div><div class="ubbcode-body">speaking of which, how do i get access to the online training? </div></div>

Pay to play.

 

[jwp6114]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

Get the Mag Pul DVD

 

[SSC]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

On these hogue you have to make sure that you are loading the bipod enough that the stock is actually pulled away from the barrel. You can always try shooting off of sand bags or benchrest near the front of the action to eliminate the stock flexing.

 

[007notgnimer]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

I bought a Remington Model 700 SPS Tactical, .308 Winchester, 20" #3 contour barrel. I'm doing some upgrades:

-Replaced the stock with a H-S Precision Pro Series stock
-Installed a H-S Precision DBM
-Installed a Badger Ordnance Tactical Bolt Knob
-Installed a Badger Ordnance 1-piece scope rail
-mounted a Vortex Scope
-Had the action and barrel Cerakoted in OD Green, the bolt was done in black.
-I ran the bore through David Tubb's FinalFinish + TMS System.

When its all finished I'll put up some pictures, maybe, if someone wants to see them, but if you don't I won't.

It's scary how accurate the Remington 700 SPS Tactical really is, especially in a talented shooters hands, considering the price range.

And I have thought about putting a 40-X trigger on the rifle.

 

[p5200]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

Is this the kit you used? http://www.davidtubb.com/308-FinalFinish-TMS-ProPack I got a brand new 700 sps aac-sd and so far it's the worst shooting centerfire I have ever owned. I know the factory stock is junk and plan to replace that but if that doesn't improve things I guess it will be time to contact Remington.

 

[007notgnimer]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p5200</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the kit you used? http://www.davidtubb.com/308-FinalFinish-TMS-ProPack I got a brand new 700 sps aac-sd and so far it's the worst shooting centerfire I have ever owned. I know the factory stock is junk and plan to replace that but if that doesn't improve things I guess it will be time to contact Remington.

</div></div>

Yea, that's the one. I'm getting 0.2" groupings @100yds. They also offer it in the loaded version if you don't handload.

Replace the stock as soon as you can.

 

[p5200]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notgnimer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p5200</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the kit you used? http://www.davidtubb.com/308-FinalFinish-TMS-ProPack I got a brand new 700 sps aac-sd and so far it's the worst shooting centerfire I have ever owned. I know the factory stock is junk and plan to replace that but if that doesn't improve things I guess it will be time to contact Remington.

</div></div>

Yea, that's the one. I'm getting 0.2" groupings @100yds. They also offer it in the loaded version if you don't handload.

Replace the stock as soon as you can. </div></div> Thanks!

 

[The Busby]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

get a .22 trainer and practice....a lot !!!

 

[p5200]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: send-it</div><div class="ubbcode-body">get a .22 trainer and practice....a lot !!!

</div></div> I've practiced plenty with .22's and numerous calibers but there is for sure, something going on with this rifle. I'm going to change scopes but, I don't think it's going to help.

 

[007notgnimer]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

The X-Mark Pro trigger is not bad, it just takes some getting use to. I have considered replacing it with a 40-X, but I think instead I will have it adjusted to 2.5lb pull. However if that doesn't work I will consider replacing it.

 

[Oham1]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

+1 on the stock. I replaced mine with a AICS 2.0 and it made a world of difference. Sub-moa rifle all day any day.

 

[007notgnimer]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oham1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 on the stock. I replaced mine with a AICS 2.0 and it made a world of difference. Sub-moa rifle all day any day. </div></div>

The stock makes a huge difference, especially on this rifle.

 

[Hook Creek]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

My factory stock with the sps Tactical shot just as good as with the B&C replacement stock. that being said I'm very happy I change the stock just cause it looks better and is a little more comfortable. But I definitely didn't mind the factory stock after modifying it to free float.

 

[Tangodown911]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p5200</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the kit you used? http://www.davidtubb.com/308-FinalFinish-TMS-ProPack I got a brand new 700 sps aac-sd and so far it's the worst shooting centerfire I have ever owned. I know the factory stock is junk and plan to replace that but if that doesn't improve things I guess it will be time to contact Remington.

</div></div>

Figures. I'm over factory gambles. Hit or miss piss poor quality control. Big green really sticking it to a lot of folks lately. It boils my ass when I hear that a brand new gun doesn't shoot that's made by an infamous American manufacture over and over and over and over. I wonder just how much Remington's reputation is carrying their sorry asses? FYI. I have 2 work rem guns that have had problems and 4 of my personal Remington's that I have needed addiontal parts prematurely replaced including junk barrels on a 1100 and a 5R that crapped on me. I've had enough of the big green weiny.

Op and quoted poster...I hate it for you guys.

 

[XxMerlinxX]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notgnimer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The X-Mark Pro trigger is not bad, it just takes some getting use to. I have considered replacing it with a 40-X, but I think instead I will have it adjusted to 2.5lb pull. However if that doesn't work I will consider replacing it. </div></div>

When you try to adjust the X-Mark Pro down that low, you won't get consistent pull weights. Way better to upgrade to something like a Timney or Jewell.

 

[micahb]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

My AAC shot 1moa from 100-400yds with fgmm 168 after I floated the stock

Now I installed a Jewell trigger and shooting 178amax hand loads it shoots .3-.5 moa all day

 

[gixxerdims]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

When i took it to the LGS, they floated my stock for me, and i've even checked by when its in the bipod, running paper through it, and its floated. Still using the stock trigger but its on its lightest (i think its 4lb)
But yeah - it seems that a few people have had accuracy issues with this stock...What i'm worried about is swapping over to a new stock etc and then it still shoots bad and the actual rifle is dodgy.

 

[The Real Morpheus]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

A couple months back I purchased the Rem 700 AAC-SD. The rifle shot a lousy "3 inch 100 yard group with factory federal gold metal match 168 gr sierra match king loads. With much frustration, I was able to get the rifle to shoot good with hand loads. However, the problem was I had to load the bullet on the lands. The total OAC length for 168 gr hornady BTHP was 2.930. Yep, essentially turned that rifle into a single shot due to the fact the second round would not feed. I sold that rifle and picked up a Savage Model 10 precision carbine and it shoots 0.189" groups all day long with the suppressor on. My experiences with the Remington rifles are they have a ton of free bore.

 

[micahb]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gixxerdims</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When i took it to the LGS, they floated my stock for me, and i've even checked by when its in the bipod, running paper through it, and its floated. Still using the stock trigger but its on its lightest (i think its 4lb)
But yeah - it seems that a few people have had accuracy issues with this stock...What i'm worried about is swapping over to a new stock etc and then it still shoots bad and the actual rifle is dodgy.
</div></div>

I would try better ammo before I tried anything else

Get you some federal gold medal match 168gr and go from there

 

[p5200]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gixxerdims</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When i took it to the LGS, they floated my stock for me, and i've even checked by when its in the bipod, running paper through it, and its floated. Still using the stock trigger but its on its lightest (i think its 4lb)
But yeah - it seems that a few people have had accuracy issues with this stock...What i'm worried about is swapping over to a new stock etc and then it still shoots bad and the actual rifle is dodgy.
</div></div> My fears exactly!

 

[gixxerdims]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Real Morpheus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple months back I purchased the Rem 700 AAC-SD. The rifle shot a lousy "3 inch 100 yard group with factory federal gold metal match 168 gr sierra match king loads. With much frustration, I was able to get the rifle to shoot good with hand loads. However, the problem was I had to load the bullet on the lands. The total OAC length for 168 gr hornady BTHP was 2.930. Yep, essentially turned that rifle into a single shot due to the fact the second round would not feed. I sold that rifle and picked up a Savage Model 10 precision carbine and it shoots 0.189" groups all day long with the suppressor on. My experiences with the Remington rifles are they have a ton of free bore. </div></div>

wow.

so how can this be identified? see i'd have no idea about loading the bullet on the lands would make it more accurate or less etc..
And like someone else said in this post - its sh*t if remington is relying on their reputation and not doing any quality control.

I bought this rifle about 2-3 years back, and probably shot it less than a dozen times at the range, hard to get out etc so yeah, can't exactly "take it back" as i was always given the impression that it was shooter error (me).

I think what i'll do is get rid of my leupold rings and base, buy a LaRue rail and 1 piece scope mount, prob get a B&C stock and if that doesnt fix it, ill consider selling the rifle then.

 

[Bulldog308]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

I bought a Rem 700 SPS Tactical .308 about a month ago. I outfitted it with Seekins 20MOA base, low rings, and a SS 3-9x42. I have taken it to the range twice. First time out I put 80 rounds through it over a few hours. I got OK groups, about 1 MOA. It was all me.

Last weekend I took her out again and kept myself settled down. Took notes and made myself wait at least 1 min between each shot shooting off of sand bags and resetting on each shot. (I used the stopwatch on my phone to be sure). I came with all 100 yard groups sub MOA. In fact they were all .75 MOA or less. My last 3 shot group at 100 yards was .515". On cold bore, my first 4 shots, I shot a .75 MOA group putting 3 of those shots into a .150" group. My 200 yard, which I am not experienced shooting any further than 100 yards, I walked away with my last 3 shot group at .520" I shot 30 rounds total that day. I left a really happy camper!

Maybe I got lucky with my factory stock. I haven't shot off a bipod yet, so that may change the game. But as far as the rifle its already a tac driver. I'm afraid to change the stock right now, cause I love the way its performing. Even if I am a little uncomfortable on the stock due to the higher scope height.I hope my experience gives you a little hope. I'm a newb to long range shooting, so I am learning as I go as well when it comes to precision long range.

 

[jwp6114]

Re: 700 SPS Tactical .308 ACCURACY ISSUES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bulldog308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I haven't shot off a bipod yet, so that may change the game. </div></div>

it will, thoes hougge stocks are not free float, when anything touches the barrel way out there if F's with the harmonics.

if your keeping the weight of the gun near the bottom metal and action screws you'll be ok.
as soon as you put something way out front to rest the stock on expect accuracy to go to crap, maybe not the first few rounds but as soon as that rubber crap gets fatigued its down hill.

that coupled with their long throat are a recipe for inaccuracy.
I got a pile of thoes factory stockks sitting in the dumpster. triggers too.