Proof needs to come out with a barrel.
- Thread starter Longshot85
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Might be the ticket for a short barreled hunting rifle as long as recoil is manageable, I don't like hunting rifles that require ear pro in case I forget them in the excitement. I am not very recoil sensitive as I hunt with an unbraked 375 Ruger, but it has the benefit of a 19.5 barrel for weight. Come to think of it maybe it would not be so bad by comparison.
I want to think there is something here to get excited about, but the more I look at it, the more I look back and .375 Raptor and would rather have that.
Is this cartridge going to run into the same issues as 300blk for subsonic hunting?
The issues being lack of projectiles that expand at subsonic velocity?
I'm not what I think about this cartridge, I like the versatility of 300blk and there are now lots of projectiles options that work great in near any weight range.
Its super cheap to load for and very easy to load for subsonics.
I appreciate the heavier 338 bullets provide a heck of a punch, especially if it's a 300gr bullet going 2500fps but I don’t see many uses for that much energy outside of dangerous game.
What normal circumstances would you choose that rather than a ordinary hunting cartridge?
338 projectiles are also crazy expensive vs 30 cal projectiles.
If you are shooting subs what real advantage is there for a 300gr bullet in the 8.6 vs a 240gr bullet in 300blk?
Other than providing a but of flexibility on a short action .473 bolt face I'm struggling to see a reason to jump on this train.
The issues being lack of projectiles that expand at subsonic velocity?
I'm not what I think about this cartridge, I like the versatility of 300blk and there are now lots of projectiles options that work great in near any weight range.
Its super cheap to load for and very easy to load for subsonics.
I appreciate the heavier 338 bullets provide a heck of a punch, especially if it's a 300gr bullet going 2500fps but I don’t see many uses for that much energy outside of dangerous game.
What normal circumstances would you choose that rather than a ordinary hunting cartridge?
338 projectiles are also crazy expensive vs 30 cal projectiles.
If you are shooting subs what real advantage is there for a 300gr bullet in the 8.6 vs a 240gr bullet in 300blk?
Other than providing a but of flexibility on a short action .473 bolt face I'm struggling to see a reason to jump on this train.
Super sonic, 375 or 45 Raptor for serious killing power. I think the 8.6 Creed or 338 fed is a good compromise of high BC bullets that will increase your effective range. 230 eld x’s would be pretty effective out of a 12” barrel to 400 yards. At 2350MV 400 yards they will be at 1800fps, 1750lbs of energy at sea level.
If I built one it would be a long throated 338 Fed bolt action. If I could find a tikka 338 fed take off Bbl that would be an easy build. At 12.5” even on those barrels there would be enough di on the muzzle to thread.
If I did it on a semi 8.6 Creed all the way.
If I built one it would be a long throated 338 Fed bolt action. If I could find a tikka 338 fed take off Bbl that would be an easy build. At 12.5” even on those barrels there would be enough di on the muzzle to thread.
If I did it on a semi 8.6 Creed all the way.
The reason $$$. Someone has either thoughts of making money or fame (Notoriety)
It would seem to me, having spent far more time shooting M-16’s than many, that the entire very large bullet eliminates much of the advantage of the M-16/AR format. The AR10 in .308 is a fine firearm, for game up to medium size at reasonable ranges. (My first choice for hog hunting in Louisiana, decent bullets and rapid 4th or 5th shot, hogs can run big and sometimes they don’t take kindly to being shot). Our nephew once unloaded a magazine of .223 at a hog before he finally stopped his charge. He went to an AR10.
But, If I really want a firearm shooting a very heavy bullet, I am going after some pretty serious critters. Critters that get really pissed off when shot. (And not immediately killed). Give me a .338 Win, a 35 Whelen or a .375 H&H. I want that sucker to understand that I mean business.
We were shooting .300 Whisper when it wasn’t cool. The 200-220 grain Matchkings would flatten a steel ram like being hit with a sledge hammer. But they did it with momentum, not energy or expansion. We shot them with Bolt Action XP-100’s and single shot TC Contenders. Not saying a heavy bullet traveling slowly won’t kill, but a heavy bullet going fast kills a whole lot better.
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You pretty much nailed it. For subs in a bolt gun a 338 federal does the same. For subs in AR10 you could choose a 458 socom or similar with heavier bullets more energy in a smaller lighter package.
For supers it offers nothing any other ordinary hunting cartridge offers but with worse BC and drop. It’s for all purposes a 338 federal.
But it's not. It will provide more energy on target than a .458 when running supers, and be quieter when running subs (cross sectional area directly correlates to flight noise.
Obviously there are cartridges that are better. If you could have a 700 nitro mag that was semi-auto, and you could suppress it and it would sound like a bunny fart, then obviously that would be preferable.
The idea here is: Are you willing to trade some muzzle energy for subsonic performance? Do you want a round that has a bit of factory support for both supers and subs?
Everything turns into a cartridge war these days...
All of your points are valid, they just have narrower field of view.
Re-read bud. I never said a 458 had more energy with supers. I specifically said subs. what determines which is quieter is the size and design of the can and what action it it run in. A 700 nitro mag in a semi auto wouldn’t really work as it’s rimmed not to mention the whole idea, weight and recoil is idiotic.
There’s 1 manufacturers or 8.6 and it’s a small outfit to my knowledge. Wouldn’t exactly call than “factory support”.
My point is the 8.6 solves a problem that didn’t exist. It’s role one subs is covered by the existing .300blk and various 458 socom 450 bushmaster and 50 Beowulf if you want to sling big heavy slugs.
I understand what you are saying. I would implore you to re-read my post as well.
My point is, it is all about tradeoffs.
There is currently no solution for someone who wants a super and sub capable semi-auto which is capable of supersonic performance in excess of .458 Socom/.450 Bush/.50 Beo.
Also, I was not suggesting that one could or should attempt to build a .700 nitro in a semi auto, but offering that was hyperbole.
It is one firearm/suppressor manufacturer, One Large barrel manufacturer, One Giant ammo manufacturer, and one boutique ammo manufacturer.
I meant no offense, as I am sure that you are astute, and your point of view is backed by your experience/understanding, but I also think that you are not considering everything that this cartridge MIGHT be.
But I am ignorant, so I could be wrong.
Agreed. Myself included.
How much energy on target does one really need though? Outside of specific game species more energy on target is just not necessary.
I appreciate over kill isn't really an issue, but if you don't need the energy and the cartridge has some draw backs then it becomes an issue.
I get that it offers some benefits over 300blk or 458 but it seems like you are get some tradeoffs you didn't have with smaller cartridges.
It seems like it's main advantages are:
-Energy on target with supers
-Efficiency in very short barrels
But it comes with downsides you don't really get with the likes of 300blk (or similar).
-Expensive projecitles
-Less choice in projectiles, especially ones that expand at subsonic speeds.
-Lots more poweder burnt
-More recoil than is necessary
I'm more than happy for this to be a niche cartridge, that sort of fills a role as the big brother of 300blk. I just don't see that it's going to find the same success in the market as 300blk did.
Which again is fine, just trying to wrap my head around what market this is aimed at.
If I think about how I might use this cartridge (or one similar) I can't help but think the only reasons would be:
-Lots of energy on target
-Efficient in super short barrels
Outside of this I can't help but think 308 would be a better choice for a AR10/standard short action.
Another downside was previously mentioned, but should be in the list above. 30 cal has become the de facto standard for suppressors. Most that have suppressors will already have a 30 cal can, but will not have a suppressor built for the 8.6. And, larger than 30 cal cans are kinda niche anyway. For a cartridge intended to have a subsonic role, that is a big downside.
yes there is, this is exactly what 375 Raptor was designed to be. (along with being a safari-legal cartridge)
my problem with 8.6 at present is I don’t see it beating 375 R in supersonic performance, and in subsonic performance the 375 wins by sheer mass.
Absolutely agree.
This has been used to take blue Wildebeest in Africa (whether or not it was ethical is TBD). This is something that should never be attempted with 300 BLK, or 450 Bush. Maybe .458 socom or beo.
So, thin skinned domestic game you definitely need not have more than 300 BLK energy. But guys hunt whitetail with 7mm rem mag and 30-06 all the time.
I have seen pigs soak up 4-5 .308 rounds before losing hydraulic pressure and going down.
In certain instances, I want overkill.
There are .375 Raptor Subs that cycle in a gas gun?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It seems more like a big brother to the 6.5 Grendel than the 300 Blk. The 6.5 and 8.6 can shoot reasonably efficient bullets where the BLK runs out of case capacity to do that well. To me, the subsonic capability is just an advantage. I'd rather shoot 180 to 230 gr bullets to 500 yds (maybe beyond) with good trajectory and much more energy. As far as velocity and powder burn, I have a hunch the 1/3 twist will spike pressure and reduce the amount of powder needed. I don't know how this will impact max velocity form the case.
Subsonic is subsonic and if you want the best subsonic performance you should just go 45 Raptor, 458 SOCOM, or 50 Beowolf. In the subsonic game there is no replacement for displacement since you're limited by velocity.
@hlee I didn't think you were the type to say an extra suppressor is a disadvantage!
Subsonic is subsonic and if you want the best subsonic performance you should just go 45 Raptor, 458 SOCOM, or 50 Beowolf. In the subsonic game there is no replacement for displacement since you're limited by velocity.
@hlee I didn't think you were the type to say an extra suppressor is a disadvantage!
More IS more better, but each comes with a ~$700+ barrier to entry.
Respectfully, I disagree.
Subsonic is not just an advantage but is really the only reason 300blk exists.
Sure some people wanted a bit more punch up close hence the desire to mimic 7.62x39 performance.
But for the most part if you have no desire to shoot subs there are better options than 300blk.
I'm kinda getting that feeling with the 8.6blk, other than wanting a high energy cartridge for very big game the only reason to go 8.6blk over 308, 7mm08, 6.5cm is you plan to shoot subs.
I don't want to come across as combative or like I'm poo-pooing this new cartridge just for the sake of it.
I was initially quite keen on it when I first heard about out but the more I think about it the less it seems to make sense (atleast for my uses).
I like my 300blk, it's versatile, cheap to reload, easy and pleasant to shoot, and is super fun with subsonics.
I can't help but think 308 running subsonics will do 90% of what the 8.6 will and always have better availability of ammo and projectiles.
Very happy to be proven wrong though as part of me just thinks it is bad ass.
Yes, though it takes a little work to get the load and gas settings just right.
I’ve gotten an AR10 build cycling with the 400gr Maker Bullets copper expanders, sitting right around 1000fps
Planning to post more details on a separate thread once done fiddling with it and collecting data, and depending on when we end up going, some hog hunt details with it. But the basic version is it’s a 12” barrel AR10 SBR designed to run suppressed 100% of the time suppressor is handguard tucked, looks kind of like the LMT CSW on steroids. Neighbor owns it, but the assembly work and minor gunsmithing work is mine.
“What’s that”
“My elephant gun”
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I agree with the 300blk, I wouldn't want to shoot it supersonic only when the 7.62x39 exists so cheaply.
To me, it seems like everyone is getting caught up in the subsonic part of the 8.6 when (hopefully) it has great supersonic capabilities too (closer to the 6.5 Grendel with a whole lot more energy). If I were to shoot supersonic only out of the AR10 platform, I'd probably choose 6.5 Creed. If I wanted subsonic only, I'd downsize platforms and go 300blk. I think this is a good cartridge for someone who values supersonic capability past 200 yds where the 300blk starts to fall off (from what I can tell, I only shoot 300 subs). It also shoots heavier bullets subsonic which is nice.
I appreciate your tone and hope I'm not coming across as blunt either, I'm excited for this cartridge too and wish it had been possible to launch years ago!
Have you tried subsonics in 308?
I haven't personally but no plenty of people that have with great success.
We will see how this cartridge performs in the wild. If it improves selection and drives down the price of 338 bullets I could convinced to jump on board.
The only thing is see unique to this cartridge is nothing about the cartridge itself but the barrel twist rate. Over the years bullets have gotten heavier for caliber and barrels faster twist rates. This is an extreme jump in that direction. Will be interesting to see the terminal ballistics of certain rounds with fast twist rates but I imagine the negatives will be less velocity (higher pressure) and possibility of blowing up lead bullets. If you have to use lead free bullets for this the cost of entry goes up that much more. As a hunting round who cares but as a range round with no practice ammo that’s a deal breaker for a lot.
Curious what is the shortest 338cal suppressor you can get in the USA?
Seems like all the 338 bore ones are meant for magnum cartridges so are all much longer than 30cal rated ones.
I guess shorter 338 bore suppressors will come out once this grows in popularity?
Seems like all the 338 bore ones are meant for magnum cartridges so are all much longer than 30cal rated ones.
I guess shorter 338 bore suppressors will come out once this grows in popularity?
9mm (.355) cal cans like the dead air wolfman and Griffin Optimus SHOULD work for subs. Super pressure will exceed wolfman ratings and would require removal of the "rifle blast baffle" in the Optimus (.30 cal aperture in rifle baffle).
All of the .46 cal cans would work(dead air primal, Griffin bushwhacker, silencerco hybrid, liberty mystic x, bowers verse 458, etc) and not be significantly larger than a standard .30 bore suppressor.
I checked with several manufacturers about reaming suppressor bores out and they all answered the same: "per ATF, it is illegal to alter suppressor components".
I plan to run subs through my Optimus until I get a .46 cal can.
Anybody reload any yet I wonder what powders are working?
The omega 36m would be the best can for this round I’d think. Could go short or long and adequate volume for supers.
I still find it surprising in the US how there are no ultra short suppressors or over barrel ones.
The are lots of European and New Zealand made options that add far less overall length to the setup.
It's not uncommon to have only 4" forward of the muzzle.
I guess that's where the appeal of a cartridge that performs well in a 12" barrel comes from, whereas I could go for a 16" barrel with a shorter suppressor and have the same overall length.
The are lots of European and New Zealand made options that add far less overall length to the setup.
It's not uncommon to have only 4" forward of the muzzle.
I guess that's where the appeal of a cartridge that performs well in a 12" barrel comes from, whereas I could go for a 16" barrel with a shorter suppressor and have the same overall length.
Suppressors - Over the barrel suppressors?
Very few companies make over the barrel suppressors. Are they not effective at supression?
www.snipershide.com Doesn't fully answer the question though.Suppressors - Over the barrel suppressors?
Very few companies make over the barrel suppressors. Are they not effective at supression?
Yes over barrel are typically longer and heavier than muzzle forward, but it is a trade off many people are happy to make.
Even excluding over barrel suppressor, US made ones seem to be on average considerably longer than other manufacturers.
Tukka in that thread represents ASE Utra who offer suppressors that are only 4" long and have incredibly good noise suppression.
8" long muzzle forward might be the way to go from a pure DB rating view but with a wide variety of manufacturers in the US I'm just surprised that there is not a more diverse range of options.
they're harder to find, but they do exist if you look. AMTAC make pretty good OTB/reflex supressors, and for shorts, sig, surefire, and Delta P design (Brevis II) make some great options
In Europe (I am told), suppressors are over the counter items that can be bought at a run of the mill sporting goods store. They are also relatively inexpensive. By contrast, in the USA, we have a 6-9+ month wait, a $200 tax on the item, and they are pretty expensive in their own right.
In one case, buying a can and being underwhelmed by its performance isn’t that big of a deal. In the other, the purchaser is married to a registered NFA item for the life of the item.
I’d wager that there is much less internet hand-wringing over a suppressor purchase in Europe. In the US, every purchase is scrutinized by the purchaser, as well by their internet enablers. BEST sound suppression. LIGHTEST weight. MOST durable. MOST versatile. BEST mount. Manufacturers cater to that market.
If the HPA had gone through, and suppressors were no longer NFA items, a lot of people expected both the demand and supply of suppressors to go way up, while price would come down. And, there would be increased innovation and competition in the sector. But, it didn’t, and they haven’t, nor have they, and there is not, so we are where we are today.
This all makes sense to me.
Also, Semi-autos (DI and Piston) are much less prevalent outside of the US. So manufacturers do not have to fight for space with gas blocks/tubes/pistons, handguards, etc.
I'm in New Zealand and suppressors are freely available, can buy and sell them to hearts content.
I can see that the tax stamp and long wait times make it a much harder decision (I know I'd obsess over it).
Aluminum suppressors are very common here, they are super lightweight and are more that durable enough for hunting and even light target/competition shooting.
I personally like the ASE Utra cans, very effective sound suppression, super comfortable and fairly lightweight considering they are 100% stainless steel.
Reason I bring up the whole suppressor length is I'm struggling to convince myself this cartridge offers anything more than a 16" 308, which is a build I was planning on doing.
I think if I were wanting/needing to go for a super short barrel the 8.6BLK would be the better choice.
As I can go for a 16" barrel and keep the barrel+supp lengths around 20" I think 308 would be the way to go, I don't need the added energy of the heavy bullets and 338 projectiles are ridiculously expensive compared to 30cal here.
Most manufacturers here offer both options, overbarrels are generally more popular despite added weight and cost.
Semi autos did lend themselves to muzzle forward only, back before our communist government banned 99% of them.
Well, then the answer to your question is that US manufacturers cater to the US market.
8.6BLK is a great play on the two most in-vogue, overrated aspects of hunting - ultra short guns and subsonics. Short guns and subs are convenient, and come with huge ballistic drawbacks when hunting most of the US. If you're hunting whitetail from a tree stand that's awesome, but the American West isn't the place for this configuration. But Q is great at selling to people who 'need' something that they don't actually use. Does anyone hunt with a Mini Fix? Does anyone really buy a $2,500 rifle with a year long SBR wait, buy a $1,200 .338 suppressor, buy a scope, and $8/rd ammo, and then actually use it? Maybe they take this setup to one of those guided Learn To Hunt classes.
.338 Federal does what this cartridge will do, with the difference being that you can actually buy .338F and don't need to buy custom ammo for a custom Faxon barrel for a custom gun with an extremely immoral business history.
.338 Federal does what this cartridge will do, with the difference being that you can actually buy .338F and don't need to buy custom ammo for a custom Faxon barrel for a custom gun with an extremely immoral business history.
