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9mm Luger - Windage Drift at 100 yd questions?

metroplex

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 15, 2020
134
27
I know it is silly to ask about spin/windage drift on a pistol cartridge like 9mm, but I have a Vector SBR that has a 6.5" barrel and 1/10 twist. Basically its an overglorified Glock 17L with a threaded barrel. When I zero it at 100 yd and check the laser bore sight afterwards, the laser is way high and to the left of my POA. I'd say about 3"-4" to the left and 6" or more high at 18 yd with the laser bore sight.

Worse, at the 100 yd line I can print a 2.5" 5-shot group but then sometimes none of my shots are on paper. I've tried different optics to no avail. I figure since the barrel is part of the lower receiver, and the optic is attached to the upper receiver that it may have some impact on this. I did notice that after a few shots or a mag is when the shots no longer hit paper at 100 yd. Once it is all cooled down, it seems to shoot normally for a bit.

Strelok does predict windage drift out to 100 yd (without any wind) but its showing a max of about 0.5 inches. Normal rifle cartridges don't show much in the same app.

I can understand the elevation drop because 9mm is a slower heavy bullet (115 gr at under 1200 fps or 124/147 at even slower velocities). But that much windage shift is odd.

I thought my barrel might be bent, so I re-adjusted and zeroed the windage at 7 yd, 18yd, and then checked it with the SL-150 laser boresight at 45-90 yd. It was dead-center at all of these distances. So the barrel is presumably "pointing straight".

Sierra shows 115gr JHP to have 1.15" windage drift at 50 yd. So it could be something like 2" at 100 yd? And given a 2"-3" grouping precision at 100 yd, could that explain something like a 4"-6" drift?

Is it just the nature of 9mm fired out of a short barrel at this distance?
 
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I know it is silly to ask about spin drift on a pistol cartridge like 9mm, but I have a Vector SBR that has a 6.5" barrel and 1/10 twist. Basically its an overglorified Glock 17L with a threaded barrel. When I zero it at 100 yd and check the laser bore sight afterwards, the laser is way high and to the left of my POA. I'd say about 3"-4" to the left and 6" or more high at 18 yd with the laser bore sight.

Worse, at the 100 yd line I can print a 2.5" 5-shot group but then sometimes none of my shots are on paper. I've tried different optics to no avail. I figure since the barrel is part of the lower receiver, and the optic is attached to the upper receiver that it may have some impact on this. I did notice that after a few shots or a mag is when the shots no longer hit paper at 100 yd. Once it is all cooled down, it seems to shoot normally for a bit.

Strelok does predict windage drift out to 100 yd (without any wind) but its showing a max of about 0.5 inches. Normal rifle cartridges don't show much in the same app.

I can understand the elevation drop because 9mm is a slower heavy bullet (115 gr at under 1200 fps or 124/147 at even slower velocities). But that much windage shift is odd.

I thought my barrel might be bent, so I re-adjusted and zeroed the windage at 7 yd, 18yd, and then checked it with the SL-150 laser boresight at 45-90 yd. It was dead-center at all of these distances. So the barrel is presumably "pointing straight".

Is it just the nature of 9mm fired out of a short barrel at this distance?
You should bore-scope your barrel.
 
Already did that and it wasn't remarkable. Nothing really out of the ordinary.
It didn't look like this inside there?
banner.jpg
 
I remove the copper after each time I shoot using Bore Tech copper remover (whether it is my Bergara HMR Pro 300WM, Vector, SCAR, etc) so no it doesn't look like that.
 
OK, in all seriousness, what you did was a complete waste of time and ammo. Your live-fire zero is your zero. Leave it the fuck alone.

Well I didn't waste any ammo. I was thinking it might have been a bent barrel/receiver somehow. Just not sure why there is this much windage drift and why it groups well and then suddenly isn't anywhere on paper.
 
Well I didn't waste any ammo. I was thinking it might have been a bent barrel/receiver somehow. Just not sure why there is this much windage drift and why it groups well and then suddenly isn't anywhere on paper.

How do you know that you didn't fuck up the Strelok inputs? I bet that's what's wrong.

Even more to the point, it's a pistol. Who even cares what Strelok says?

The bullet doesn't lie.
 
...and why it groups well and then suddenly isn't anywhere on paper.
You answered that yourself when you said that the gun shoots fine again when it cooled down.
Perhaps you need to re-scale your expectations.
 
How do you know that you didn't fuck up the Strelok inputs? I bet that's what's wrong.

Even more to the point, it's a pistol. Who even cares what Strelok says?

The bullet doesn't lie.

I was using Strelok as one data point. I believe the Miller formula for spin drift isn't applicable to flat base bullets. So I am not sure what Igor uses for his windage drift calculations.

Sierra's own ballistics showed like more than 1" windage drift at 50 yd with their 115gr load.

I am not trying to figure out why Strelok is wrong. I am trying to figure out why there is so much drift at 100 yd with live fire. The Vector SBR is the only gun that I have that shows a wild laser boresight at 25 yd compared to everything else I have. The problem is that while it I can get a few nice groups at 100 yd, most of the time it goes nowhere on paper. Just trying to figure out if its ballistics related, barrel related, or just the Vector design by itself.

I am not sure if the guy above was trolling but here's a photo the bore throat and the bore itself. I have 579 rd through this 6.5" barrel (885 total through the rifle itself).

It's not so much scaling down my expectations but figuring out why its doing this.

WIN_20240105_11_57_15_Pro.jpg
WIN_20240105_11_57_09_Pro.jpg
 
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You do realize that a laser bore sighter is only a tool to get you on target quicker. Just because it has the word "laser" in the name does not mean that it is perfectly centered to your bore.
 
You do realize that a laser bore sighter is only a tool to get you on target quicker. Just because it has the word "laser" in the name does not mean that it is perfectly centered to your bore.

I use it as a tool for sanity check as well as getting on paper quicker. But in the case of this Vector, it doesn't help because it is nowhere on paper. Just trying to see how much windage/spin drift there is from 9mm out of a 6.5" barrel. This isn't a cheap Chinese boresighter. It's the SL-150 that has worked great on my other rifles and precision bolt guns, just totally out of whack with this Vector. I guess if you don't know how much spin or windage drift to expect out of 9mm at 100 yd, just say so.
 
How big of paper are you missing completely at 100? I wouldn’t expect to see any meaningful drift and maybe an inch or two of windage at 100 tops.

I’m pretty sure you either have a defect on the crown or your barrel is light enough that it heats up and whips around.
 
I use it as a tool for sanity check as well as getting on paper quicker. But in the case of this Vector, it doesn't help because it is nowhere on paper. Just trying to see how much windage/spin drift there is from 9mm out of a 6.5" barrel. This isn't a cheap Chinese boresighter. It's the SL-150 that has worked great on my other rifles and precision bolt guns, just totally out of whack with this Vector. I guess if you don't know how much spin or windage drift to expect out of 9mm at 100 yd, just say so.
OK, fine.
9mm drifts right 3-4" and drops 6" at 100 yds. See, exactly in line with your observations. You're a frickin' genius!
 
How big of paper are you missing completely at 100? I wouldn’t expect to see any meaningful drift and maybe an inch or two of windage at 100 tops.

I’m pretty sure you either have a defect on the crown or your barrel is light enough that it heats up and whips around.

It's a fairly short and thick barrel (17mm diameter, 6.5" length). The targets I'd use are 12"x18" but in the worst situations I'd use like 2 of these side by side and its nowhere to be found on paper. But out of the same gun, I'd get like 2.5" 5-shot groups at 100 yd. The most recent range session, I was shooting these groups cold at 100 yd. I handed it over to a friend and she complained it wasn't anywhere on paper so I was thinking maybe when it gets warmed up (not from rapid fire, just from regular slow fire) it would wildly open up.

I've seen other people show their Vector groupings at 100 yd on these huge sheets of butcher paper, so it's possible if I used that big of a paper at 100 yd, I might see the shots that are way off. I don't want to assume it is just a characteristic of the gun.

My 16" Ruger PC Carbine shooting the same ammo is far more consistent at the same distance and conditions.

Maybe spin drift is the wrong term, but there's not a whole lot of barrel. Sierra shows more than 1" windage drift at 50 yd with a 115gr FMJ load.
 
I use it as a tool for sanity check as well as getting on paper quicker. But in the case of this Vector, it doesn't help because it is nowhere on paper. Just trying to see how much windage/spin drift there is from 9mm out of a 6.5" barrel. This isn't a cheap Chinese boresighter. It's the SL-150 that has worked great on my other rifles and precision bolt guns, just totally out of whack with this Vector. I guess if you don't know how much spin or windage drift to expect out of 9mm at 100 yd, just say so.
Show us what this laser boresighter looks like.

Some suck at concentricity with the bore, others are somewhat better.
 
I've noticed from other threads that you're really spending a lot of time and ammo dealing with this "carbine" problems at 100 yards.

This is NOT a 100 yard "rifle".

LOL
 
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The orings that center that thing in the bore are rubber. A few thousands of an inch of give will give wide divergence down range.

That's one possible reason.

I still say that you're wasting your time trying to reconcile the difference between your 100 yd zero and whatever that boresighter says at 18 (or whatever it was) yards.

But then again, gross conceptual errors in many technical aspects and tool use are rampant here so I'm not shocked.
 
OP - you’re over thinking this. It’s not rocket science, it’s basic issues.

Laser not lining up = irrelevant. Your POA and POI are all that matters. The laser lining up does not matter, put it away…

Flyers - could be a lot of things. Change one variable at a time to figure out what it is. Bad ammo, bad parts, loose parts, bad shooting, barrel temp, etc.

I had a PCC once that would shoot great for a few rounds then be off, then shoot great. It was frustrating! Turns out there was a thread cap underneath the barrel shroud/flash hider. It had come loose and was impacting every few rounds as they exited the barrel. Basic stuff but it wasn’t the first place I looked.
 
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OP - you’re over thinking this. It’s not rocket science, it’s basic issues.

Laser not lining up = irrelevant. Your POA and POI are all that matters. The laser lining up does not matter, put it away…

Flyers - could be a lot of things. Change one variable at a time to figure out what it is. Bad ammo, bad parts, loose parts, bad shooting, barrel temp, etc.

I had a PCC once that would shoot great for a few rounds then be off, then shoot great. It was frustrating! Turns out there was a thread cap underneath the barrel shroud/flash hider. It had come loose and was impacting every few rounds as they exited the barrel. Basic stuff but it wasn’t the first place I looked.
OP this is solid advice. I have a H&K SP5 and it’s a hammer from close in to 100 yards or more. I see very little effect from wind exc.. Zero your red dot or holographic at 25 yards and adjust your hold as need be. Good luck.