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Range Report A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

silverphoenix

silverphoenix

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Nov 4, 2008
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I know that a bullet cannot knock someone over from small arms---it's simply physics. The force the thing/person being shot is hit by=the force of recoil of the one firing. Bullets Cannot knock people or animals over--it is simply the "shock and pain" factor or rather instant incapacitation and a "nudge" by the bullet for the animal/person to fall in that direction.

Am I right? This is being debated with me and I know the physics, but don't have the formulas!
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

mythbusters did this exact experiment, they (while not the most intelligent guys I have ever seen, especially when it comes to firearms) pretty much proved your point.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

you are right, the mythbusters covered this well in one of their episodes. They shot a hanging pig with all kinds of things and the bullets passed right through leaving the carcass hanging still.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

Well, formulas are actually on wikipedia. Look up the conservation of momentum law. It would explain the physics of the bullet stopping inside the target.

Also, you can use google video to get lectures that will explain to you how to use the laws of physics. Newtonian mechanics only requires a little bit of calculus to understand in depth, but for this kind of thing I think simple algebra would work just fine.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

A little common sense applies here - the bullet is fired by someone, who experiences recoil forces "equal and opposite" to the bullet momentum plus whatever rocket effect from propellant gasses after the bullet exits the barrel.

If the bullet could knock someone over, the forces involved would also knock the shooter over.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

this topic goes back to the "knockdown" formulas used by african hunters etc. If you want a good illustration and some fun experiments, build a ballistic pendulum. A hanging piece of wood as an example, when impacted, wt. known and angle of movement, one can calculate the ke, or the first derivative momentum. an other very common example are the pepper poppers used in handgun and rifle matches, which can be set to major or minor calibers etc. some of these babies weigh up to 50 lbs, and knock down between calibers can be easily observed. Or ask the maker of second chance body armour if a 44 mag will knock you down. Any one who has shot metallic silhoutte with 35-50 lbs rams will probably disagree that a bullet can't knock something down. of course these don't approach a 200 lb man or an 800 lb elk., but do give a some insight into the question.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can i

How about a 408 and hitting a antelope high. It knocked the thing straight to the ground... It does have close to 10k energy at the muzzle.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can i

If a case of bullets fell on you you'd get knocked over.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can i

What about a rifle that could knock someone over if they weren't ready for it? For example big bores or the BIG tactical calibers?
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can i

I saw an old film where a German soldier was shot close range with a 45 acp to the torso and he fell like a brick. But that was an old black and white WW2 newsreel clip. I'm sure they lied about it...
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can i

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tyler Kemp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about a rifle that could knock someone over if they weren't ready for it? For example big bores or the BIG tactical calibers? </div></div>

Or if someones uses a stock as a bat...

Seriously, unless your body is torn apart from a round, you falling from shock is why you go down.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Weaver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little common sense applies here - the bullet is fired by someone, who experiences recoil forces "equal and opposite" to the bullet momentum plus whatever rocket effect from propellant gasses after the bullet exits the barrel.

If the bullet could knock someone over, the forces involved would also knock the shooter over. </div></div>

I keep reading people who use this exact argument & I always shake my head. I've been shot. From someone standing 4 feet from me using a 1911 .45 with 230 grain hollowpoints. While I have first hand knowledge & experience that the bullet doesn't have enough energey to knock a person backwards, there is a minor flaw in your assessment.
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People are always forgeting that a shooter isn't standing still on both feet flat-footed with the arms locked out. The shooter can put his weight into the gun, uses recoil of the gun moving the gun up & back, the arms flexing & moving, the whole body moving backwards a step or two......all this takes up the foot pounds of recoil that we think should "knock the shooter over".

It's the same principle involving a 1950's automobile versus a new car. The old car is completely solid and will transfer energy from an impact to the occupants....but the new car taking the same impact forces, redistribute it through it's crumple zones, seatbelts, airbags, etc.....causing less damage to the occupants.
wink.gif
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

A bullet most certainly CAN knock things over. WHAT it can knock over depends on terminal energy. I am not a scientist. Just a trigger puller. I have seen lots of steel fall over from little old bullets. People are a different matter and absorb energy differently.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

Of course the bullets can knock something (light) over, but it is based on momentum (bullet mass*impact velocity), not energy. And in the case of rigid steel targets the bullet dissintegrates and some % of the mass bounces back, enhancing the effect. Point of impact also counts (leverage relative to the base). Anybody that shoots IMHSA silhouttes can attest that even a rifle round sometimes does not knock over a light target at 200 yds.

And for handguns, just shoot some steel plates (3-5 lbs) with that a normal pistol caliber to see how "awesome" really the knockdown power is... not.

Medium animals and up (say 100+ lbs)... don't count on knocking power, won't happen.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

Obviously nobody here shoots silhouette.

The issue that's at question is the rate of energy dissipation/absorbtion. Where penetration meets resistance, the more resistance, the more the target gets displaced.

You shoot a steel rimfire chicken silhouette, it's going over. I knocked steel rams over at somewhere around 600yd with single shots from a .260 Rem at Raton back in 2002, repeatedly. Folks with me (and I) doubted its knockdown power until I did that.

Greg
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

also have a surface area and time distribution consideration, if your rifle buttstock came to a point like a hunting arrow, ------
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

Um, yeah Ive shot several deer including the latest one that were "knocked" down. the bullet entered at the spine and lodged about 10 inches forward in the meat of the neck. He looked like he was hit by a car he hit the ground so hard. all of the bullets energy was transferred into his upper shoulder/neck area. So yeah bullets can knock something down and do so with authority. But no, not if you are hitting soft tissue and the bullet doesnt transfer is whole energy to the animal and the bullet simply zips through.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

If your shooting a steel plate, very little energy is absorbed in the steel, so of course it will fall over.

If you have rapidly expanding bullets, you will certainly fall backwards from the energy.

With a FMJ little evergy is absorbed, specificly from a .223. The bullet will zip right through you, but I suspect, even with my 6.5x47L at 1000 yards, that bullet is hitting you with more foot lbs than a .454 casual at point blank range. My guess is you would take a strike harder than any one push you backwards.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: silverphoenix</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullets Cannot knock people or animals over--it is simply the "shock and pain" factor or rather instant incapacitation and a "nudge" by the bullet for the animal/person to fall in that direction.

Am I right? This is being debated with me and I know the physics, but don't have the formulas! </div></div>

As Greg said, its a question of how much energy the bullet has, how well it transfers it to the target and the weight of the target itself.

Anyone who has hunted varmints can tell you animals can definitely get "knocked down"... and much more. A small groundhog I shot at 130 yards with a 125 TNT out of my 308 Win. this summer did a back flip 2 feet in the air as the bullet turned him inside-out.

If you hit someone with a round from a PTRD or Barrett XM109, I'm pretty sure they would get knocked down. If they made VMAX bullets for those, the results would be similar to my groundhog.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

If you hit the spine of something and it knocks down I'm betting animal nerves come into play -

The best example though is the Kennedy shot - his head DOES move forward, before it jerks back.

Hanging dead weight is the best test, any living creature has nerves and those nerves go sporadic when hit
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

Kennedy was shot with ball ammo. Energry transfer is very poor since there is no expansion.

Here is a great example of enough energy, with good transfer:

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You wouldn't have those results with a 17 HMR or .22LR firing solids.

With bigger animals, it just scales up: more energy is required to throw them. And that energy need to get transferred. With a big enough projectile and good energy transfer, you could toss moose or polar bears around like that. But, isn't going to happen if you shoot them with a standard hunting rifle.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ewoaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you are right, the mythbusters covered this well in one of their episodes. They shot a hanging pig with all kinds of things and the bullets passed right through leaving the carcass hanging still.</div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ewoaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you are right, the mythbusters covered this well in one of their episodes. They shot a hanging pig with all kinds of things and the bullets passed right through leaving the carcass hanging still.</div></div>

Sorry, but I have no faith in that show anymore. I've watched too many times where they ignore the obvious, don't ask any questions of the experts in that field etc. I even remember the one about shooting through a scope a'la Hathcock. They said it couldn't be done because the one with the faggoty hat and greasy mustache couldn't shoot. They also said 'massive decompression' in an airliner can't happen.

And, FWIW, every deer (9) I shot with my .257 hit the ground going away from the shot when I hit him. Same with the antelope. Elk (little guy) went straight down. Not so many with my .243.

The big thing is when the bullet is passed from the gun to the target, the shooter is/should be braced. Taking up the recoil. Like having a solid floor to jump from. From there the bullet has a weight and a speed. Speed squared times weight is the energy the bullet has and can impart. The target usually isn't braced. Like getting a one hand push when your walking a curb or beam. When that bullet hits the target a number of other factors come into play. The bullet construction. The bullets shape. If that bullet wants to go straight through like a well/over stabilized FMJ or expand and possibly explode like a Partition or a Blitzking. I've found the bullets that impart the most energy to their targets are the varmint type, thin-skinned bullets. They don't tend to punch through and keep remaining energy.

Bottom line: yes a bullet can knock an animal or human over if it hits it.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ewoaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you are right, the mythbusters covered this well in one of their episodes. They shot a hanging pig with all kinds of things and the bullets passed right through leaving the carcass hanging still.</div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ewoaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you are right, the mythbusters covered this well in one of their episodes. They shot a hanging pig with all kinds of things and the bullets passed right through leaving the carcass hanging still.</div></div>

Sorry, but I have no faith in that show anymore. I've watched too many times where they ignore the obvious, don't ask any questions of the experts in that field etc. I even remember the one about shooting through a scope a'la Hathcock. They said it couldn't be done because the one with the faggoty hat and greasy mustache couldn't shoot. They also said 'massive decompression' in an airliner can't happen.

And, FWIW, every deer (9) I shot with my .257 hit the ground going away from the shot when I hit him. Same with the antelope. Elk (little guy) went straight down. Not so many with my .243.

The big thing is when the bullet is passed from the gun to the target, the shooter is/should be braced. Taking up the recoil. Like having a solid floor to jump from. From there the bullet has a weight and a speed. Speed squared times weight is the energy the bullet has and can impart. The target usually isn't braced. Like getting a one hand push when your walking a curb or beam. When that bullet hits the target a number of other factors come into play. The bullet construction. The bullets shape. If that bullet wants to go straight through like a well/over stabilized FMJ or expand and possibly explode like a Partition or a Blitzking. I've found the bullets that impart the most energy to their targets are the varmint type, thin-skinned bullets. They don't tend to punch through and keep remaining energy.

Bottom line: yes a bullet can knock an animal or human over if it hits it. </div></div>

Not going to get too far into this pissing match, but I will say you are wrong.

Doesn't happen, can't happen, won't happen. Now if you want to talk about small varmints, you have my attention,they will fly apart abviously, but any real game animal or human what you are seeing is luck and physical reflex.

This isn't TV people. You shoot a person or an animal more than likely they are going to hunch or spin into the wound, that's natural, just because the animal you shot happens to fall on the side away from the entrance wound has absolutley nothing to do with it.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RussW1911 ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...

Not going to get too far into this pissing match, but I will say you are wrong.

Doesn't happen, can't happen, won't happen. Now if you want to talk about small varmints, you have my attention,they will fly apart abviously, but any real game animal or human what you are seeing is luck and physical reflex.

This isn't TV people. You shoot a person or an animal more than likely they are going to hunch or spin into the wound, that's natural, <span style="font-weight: bold">just because the animal you shot happens to fall on the side away from the entrance wound has absolutley nothing to do with it.</span></div></div>

Nine times??

Okay, since you want to end the pissing match right away, I must not have done what I've done or seen what I've seen. As you said, can't happen won't happen, etc. ....and maybe at this point, you could produce some credentials as to how you know that <span style="font-weight: bold">ALWAYS</span> is that way.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

If I had the technology to do it, I would post multiple Deer, Antelope and Elk that were takin' with a 338 RUM from 78 yards to 700+ yards and not one of them did the back flip that some of you guys like to pound your chest about and tell stories to the unknowing. Keep your stories for the bars and your girlfriends and quit trying to bull shit everyone.

I shoot high shoulder and not one of these animals did the extreme acrobatics that your talking of.... was the 338 RUM not good enough?
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

A few observations from direct experience:

Sunday I saw a deer immediately fall over on its side when hit with a 140gr 6.5 AMAX at about 75 yards. I wouldn't say that it was knocked over, it collapsed.

But I did see a deer knocked over on its side when hit with a factory .458 Win Mag 500gr soft point in the shoulder at about 100 yards. That one didn't fall or collapse, it was slammed to the ground on the side opposite the shoulder.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RussW1911 ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I had the technology to do it, I would post multiple Deer, Antelope and Elk that were takin' with a 338 RUM from 78 yards to 700+ yards and not one of them did the back flip that some of you guys like to pound your chest about and tell stories to the unknowing. Keep your stories for the bars and your girlfriends and quit trying to bull shit everyone.

I shoot high shoulder and not one of these animals did the extreme acrobatics that your talking of.... was the 338 RUM not good enough?</div></div>

I didn't say back flips and acrobatics. I said,..."knocked over." I also didn't say slammed to the ground.

The whole point here is that, in the simplest physics I can explain it to you, A bullet is a weight, moving at a speed. It imparts energy when it hits something. It even imparts energy to the air it moves though (just in case you didn't know air is a substance and has a weight and resistance when something moves through it.)

How much energy it imparts depends on a lot of things. Shape, construction and velocity of the bullet. And, consistency of the target. Why do you think steel silhouettes fall down when they are hit? Because they want to? No, it's because the bullet imparted energy to it. Some animals don't absorb the energy some do. The ones that absorbed the energy fell down. The ones that didn't either went down or took off running.

It's that simple. And I still don't give a damn what those ass-hats on mythbusters say.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

On varmints, one must consider the size and weight in proportion with the size of the projectile and its construction and weight.

If one were to scale up a cartridge like that to our size and weight, we would likely end up with something in the 35mm to 40mm range and able to deposit most of its energy with in just a few inches of penetration. We would likely realize target retreat and vaporization.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

You guys are no longer discussing the issue presented by the OP, having chosen to argue semantics and causation instead.

Have at it.

But if anyone here knows how energy transfer works, and can answer the original question, I, for one, would like to hear it.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

Using Newton's 3rd law of momentum you can figure this out. You can use the formula m1v1=m2v2 where m is the mass and v is the velocity.
#1 example: a 165gr. bullet(308) going at 2400fps hits a 150lb man.
converting gr to lbs you get (.0236lb)(2400fps)/150lb=v2. V2 comes out at .3776fps which would barely move a person if the bullet stayed inside the person and did not exit.

#2 example: a 700gr bullet(50bmg) going at 2000fps hit a 150lb man. (.1lb)(2000)/150= 1.3 feet per second which knock you off your feet if the bullet stayed inside the person.

There are alot of other Physics equations that you would have to figure, but hopefully this helps. The main problem is that most bullets would exit and the equation would not work perfectly.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RussW1911 ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I had the technology to do it, I would post multiple Deer, Antelope and Elk that were takin' with a 338 RUM from 78 yards to 700+ yards and not one of them did the back flip that some of you guys like to pound your chest about and tell stories to the unknowing. Keep your stories for the bars and your girlfriends and quit trying to bull shit everyone.

I shoot high shoulder and not one of these animals did the extreme acrobatics that your talking of.... was the 338 RUM not good enough? </div></div>

Reading comprehension isn't one of your strong points is it?

Key word here: "Scaling".

It was said very clearly: "...isn't going to happen if you shoot them with a standard hunting rifle." No, as far as scaling goes, a 338 RUM is not big enough to make deer or antelopes do back flips.

Overly simplified analysis:

Ek = 1/2 MV^2

Ek is kinetic energy
M is the mass of the bullet
V is its velocity

Figure out the energy per pound of body weight for one and you can calculate the velocity and bullet weight needed to scale it to the other. If you assume the varmint weighs 8 lbs and is hit with a 110 gr. bullet and the larger animal is 200 lbs., your second bullet would have to weight around 2750 gr., and be traveling at the same velocity in order to deliver the same ratio of kenetic energy to body weight on the larger animal. Further, it would have to transfer that energy to the animal in the same way as the varmint bullet in order to get the same effect. Your comparison doesn't scale. Find a .338 varmint bullet and try it on something the size of a fox (~16 lbs.). That is more to scale.

The OP's statement: "Bullets Cannot knock people or animals over..." is false. Does that mean it will happen when someone gets shot with 9mm the way they show it in Hollywood? Fuck no!
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

Oh come on a .38 revolver has just gotta' knock a bad guy about 30 feet in the air. I saw it on Lifetime channel with my wife so it has got to be true.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: veezer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Using Newton's 3rd law of momentum you can figure this out. You can use the formula m1v1=m2v2 where m is the mass and v is the velocity.
#1 example: a 165gr. bullet(308) going at 2400fps hits a 150lb man.
converting gr to lbs you get (.0236lb)(2400fps)/150lb=v2. V2 comes out at .3776fps which would barely move a person if the bullet stayed inside the person and did not exit.

#2 example: a 700gr bullet(50bmg) going at 2000fps hit a 150lb man. (.1lb)(2000)/150= 1.3 feet per second which knock you off your feet if the bullet stayed inside the person.

There are alot of other Physics equations that you would have to figure, but hopefully this helps. The main problem is that most bullets would exit and the equation would not work perfectly.</div></div>

Your math is a little off...it's velocity squared. If you then took that and divided it by 150 (a man as you say) it comes out 906. But it's also bullet placement. 50 supported but unbraced pounds (a mans chest) is going to go over easier than 30 lbs of supported and braced (a mans thigh).

I watched the mythbusters video...According to them getting shot by a .50 BMG isn't much worse than getting hit by a baseball. No rigging of results or agenda there.... I will agree the flying backward and stunts are pure theatrical...but it's the movies. They can do that because they want to. Not because it's real. And movie producers and directors don't have to do what the guy in the faggoty hat with the greasy mustache says. They ain't exactly A-list stars.
The other thing they screwed up is that when a gun fires a bullet, it's designed to hold the recoil and direct the bullet downrange, giving it energy. It's a tool you use in conjunction with your body to hold the recoil. You couldn't fire a case out of your bare hand. According to their explanation the bullet would fall out the end of the barrel.

So you want some formula to tell you how far something is going to move? Go to any ballistics program on line or reload book and it will give you a chart that shows kinetic energy in ft. lbs. Then look up variables in bullet shape. Then look up various densities of flesh of different animals. Then try to mathematically figure out if the angle you might be shooting from has enough leverage to send an animal/man in the other direction. Combine all that and you have an answer.

As for me, I've seen animals go over when shot. I've also watched the video's of lions getting shot while charging and them great big .375 H&H and .416 Rigby bullets didn't seem to do much except finally kill them in the end. It's not a one all situation. But the simple physics says yes being hit by a bullet will knock a living object over.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

sandwarrior, energy numbers or formulas are NOT going to give you any answers...
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It is <span style="font-weight: bold">conservation of momentum</span> what is important, look up "collision" in any physics book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inelastic_collision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision

And if you work the math you'll see that it is very difficult to knock down any heavy object unless the balance is compromised to start with.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Your math is a little off...it's velocity squared.
</div></div>

No, its not. If I was figuring kinetic energy, then I would use velocity squared and an entirely different formula, but the formula for momentum doesnt require it.

Simply stated, if you hit a very large object with a very small object the large one is simply going to absorb it unless the small one is going at hyper drive speed. Take a look at bullet tests in test media. You see the media bulge out and move a little, but it doesnt fly off the table at incredible speed.

The observation of animals doing backflips and other strange moves is simply them reacting to the bullet impact. Think about it, if something hits you and scares the bejesus out of you, you jump. And how many times have you seen animals simply fall straight down when hit with a rifle. It's just the different reaction to the impact.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

bullet difference-sectional density
observer difference- 2rd moment-momentum, 3rd moment - jerk
3rd order differential equation showing chaotic behavior, accounts for difference in observations
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sandwarrior, energy numbers or formulas are NOT going to give you any answers...
smile.gif


It is <span style="font-weight: bold">conservation of momentum</span> what is important, look up "collision" in any physics book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inelastic_collision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision

And if you work the math you'll see that it is very difficult to knock down any heavy object unless the balance is compromised to start with.</div></div>

Yeeeesss....and I've said that before. Not every bullet will knock an animal down. In my last reply I also gave an example of why it doesn't always happen when I said, "Then look up various densities of flesh of different animals." Now how are you going to find that? There ain't nothing on that really, that's why you won't find it. That's why every shot is different when you hit an animal. GOT IT????

And yes, the bullet doesn't always give all of it's energy to the target. This is especially apparent when the bullet goes through the target. Paper, steel or meat.

But, boil it down to simple physics and you have a weight moving through the air whose KE=.5mV^2 (Kinetic energy = one half mass times velocity <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">squared</span></span>..said that before as well).

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">THEN</span></span> ...jumping back up to the paragraph above the previous one (that's two paragraphs up...count, one two{hold your finger there if you need to}) When the bullet hits it will impart energy. Kinetic energy in case you didn't follow along. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">THEN</span></span>...I said this before too... Depending on the shape of the bullet, its construction,(in case you didn't read into it, how much it mushrooms stays unbent or separates) it's weight, it's velocity, <span style="font-weight: bold">[/b]ALSO the fundamental makeup of the target. Steel will absorb more energy Flesh will not. Some bones will absorb more energy, some bones will not. So according to basic physics, yes a bullet can knock something over. </span>

How hard is that???

Also, as far as Mythbusters go, I find it hard to believe a .375 lb. baseball moving at 88 fps knocks their dummy around as much a .11 lb .50 cal projectile moving at 2600 fps. There is no comparison and to make it look like it doesn't happen shows they don't have the truth in mind when they do their show.

If you don't think it's possible by now you won't ever think it's possible.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: veezer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Your math is a little off...it's velocity squared.
</div></div>

No, its not. If I was figuring kinetic energy, then I would use velocity squared and an entirely different formula, but the formula for momentum doesnt require it.

Simply stated, if you hit a very large object with a very small object the large one is simply going to absorb it unless the small one is going at hyper drive speed. Take a look at bullet tests in test media. You see the media bulge out and move a little, but it doesnt fly off the table at incredible speed.

The observation of animals doing backflips and other strange moves is simply them reacting to the bullet impact. Think about it, if something hits you and scares the bejesus out of you, you jump. And how many times have you seen animals simply fall straight down when hit with a rifle. It's just the different reaction to the impact.</div></div>

As per my last post...if you think it doesn't or can't happen then it can't happen. Simple as that.

I've watched it happen on more than a few occasions. It doesn't happen every time. And no, as I've said many, many times here...big game animals haven't done backflips for me. They either went straight down, got knocked over(which is what I've been saying here all along) Or, took the hit, then ran, then died.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

I hit a pig at 450 yards with a 750 amax shoulder hit it 200 lbs approx weight of the pig. Even though I did not see the impact per say a friend who was spotting did. He said the impact picked up the pig and flipped it. I believed him since the pigs feet was facing away from me when I looked at it after the shot. When we went to get the pig it was flipped and sent backwards two feet. If I would of shot it through a soft area it would not have done that that is for sure. Devastating wound channel. It all comes from the bullet and how fast it stops meaning how much energy it dissipates at a short time. Steel plates for example will fall over it hit..

Just my thought after seeing what happens to a pig that was hit.

kn
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: veezer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The observation of animals doing backflips and other strange moves is simply them reacting to the bullet impact. Think about it, if something hits you and scares the bejesus out of you, you jump. And how many times have you seen animals simply fall straight down when hit with a rifle. It's just the different reaction to the impact. </div></div>

This guy must have been really scared...

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Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

If you drop a slice of buttered toast...

I'm responding to the subject 'double can' question of

Q: "A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?"

A: Yes
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

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Nope, no flying antelope from that 50.

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Messed up Muley for sure, but no flying.

Closest i've personally seen to any "flying" from a bullet strike was a doe I shot in the head from about 150y with a .308 168CT Ballistic tip. When the bullet struck her noggin it looked like Thor whacked her with a really big stick.

This whole debate is starting to sound like the airplane on a treadmill debate.

Branden
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Weaver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little common sense applies here - the bullet is fired by someone, who experiences recoil forces "equal and opposite" to the bullet momentum plus whatever rocket effect from propellant gasses after the bullet exits the barrel.

If the bullet could knock someone over, the forces involved would also knock the shooter over.</div></div>

This is the correct argument. It is the momentum of the bullet which provides the knockdown force, not the energy of the bullet. If the bullet stops in the target then most of the bullet's energy is expended destroying tissue and is not transferred to the motion of the target.

Suppose the target and shooter were both standing on ice. When the shooter fires he receives a backward push and slides backward at low speed across the ice. His momentum is equal to that of the bullet (plus the ejected propellant gas). When the target stops the bullet, all of the bullets momentum is transferred into the motion of the target. If the target has the same weight as the shooter, then it will start sliding on the ice at the same speed as the shooter (actually less if the momentum of the gas is included). Momentum is conserved at all stages of the process.

So the bullet will only knock over the target under the same conditions as it would knock over the shooter, such as being off balance.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GuinnessNM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Weaver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little common sense applies here - the bullet is fired by someone, who experiences recoil forces "equal and opposite" to the bullet momentum plus whatever rocket effect from propellant gasses after the bullet exits the barrel.

If the bullet could knock someone over, the forces involved would also knock the shooter over.</div></div>

This is the correct argument. It is the momentum of the bullet which provides the knockdown force, not the energy of the bullet. If the bullet stops in the target then most of the bullet's energy is expended destroying tissue and is not transferred to the motion of the target.

Suppose the target and shooter were both standing on ice. When the shooter fires he receives a backward push and slides backward at low speed across the ice. His momentum is equal to that of the bullet (plus the ejected propellant gas). When the target stops the bullet, all of the bullets momentum is transferred into the motion of the target. If the target has the same weight as the shooter, then it will start sliding on the ice at the same speed as the shooter (actually less if the momentum of the gas is included). Momentum is conserved at all stages of the process.

So the bullet will only knock over the target under the same conditions as it would knock over the shooter, such as being off balance.</div></div>

I'll remember to fall down next time I stand up to shoot steel targets offhand just so your thinking will be "correct."
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

Sandwarrior, it seems you miss the "small detail" that the steel targets you shoot are about 1/30 of your weight...
wink.gif
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

I used to have a picture of a shotgun slug someone cut on a lathe. Looked like it weighed about 900 grains. I have to think that if I was hit by that I would feel a small bit off balance.

I'm not a physicist.

Just lightening the mood.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior, it seems you miss the "small detail" that the steel targets you shoot are about 1/30 of your weight...
wink.gif

</div></div>

or maybe it takes about 1/30th of my weight to knock one over....BUT IT KNOCKED IT OVER...how hard is that to get???

I'm at the point that this meaningless...therefore pointless discussion has gotten on the one nerve I have left. For those who've never seen an animal get knocked down, stick to your imperfect way of measuring things and be happy with that. For those of us who have seen a bullet knock an animal down when we shot it...it doesn't really matter. We were already looking to next year by the time we got the carcass hung.
 
Re: A bullet CANNOT knock someone/thing over can it?

It isn't bullet momentum that drops a deer, it's bullet energy.

If you were to have an M-80 (sic) go off in your guts you'd likely drop like a wet sack of potatoes.
 
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