A quick rant about "competition"

G

Guest

Guest
#1
A friend of mine who is into competition pistol shooting, IPSC I think...but not sure as I always tune him out when he drones on about it, is always trying to pressure me into competing with him. He keeps telling me it will help me to hone my skills and give me even more of an edge when i'm on and off duty (LE). I always respectfully decline.

And while this cat is a very good shot, and he is fast, he would be S.O.L in a gunfight. He can't shoot on the move. He can't improvise. He's uncomfortable with anything that isn't 2-hand, standard draw, plant base, shoot for tiny groups. Basically, he's a good shot, poor fighter.

My point is this:
While I do believe there is certainly a place for correct brand of competition in the development of overall weapon handling/fighting skills....IF one has the proper mindset. Inversely, the wrong kind of mindset or trying to adapt impractical competition to practical application is probably going to be counter-productive.

What is the wrong mindset?
I'm willing to bet that most of us here (if not all) are type "A" personalities. This means that we are aggressive, impatient, naturally competitive, and strive for dominance. Sound right? Thought so
wink.gif
. And when we compete, WE WIN...or else. And if we don't win, we will next time and cut corners doing it (or we pout and go home). We are going to put some fancy sights on the gun, drill holes in it to make it lighter, and re-chamber it to something that can't ever be used outside this competition. And we have then totally lost sight of our goal. Where we set out to learn and hone our basic skills, we are now using impractical gimmickry and compromising fundamentals in order to be competitive.

What is the right mindset?
If you compete to hone your skills, repeat this mantra. Remember that you are there for YOU, I don't care what the other guys do. I am going to practice and compete the right way. And if that doesn't keep you calm, I always say "he may be faster here, but in real life, he would choke and I would prevail."

I know that this goes without saying, but the closer your competition is to real-life, the more you will get out of it. Ever see a BR rifle deployed by a SWAT sniper? Ever carry a race gun for CCW? No? I rest my case.

And I know I have butted heads with fellow members on this before. Swearing by the equipment that top competitors is no different than asking "what rifle did the SEALs use on the pirates?" While it is a good barometer of quality and a good discussion topic, it does not mean that you can skip practice and it certainly doesn't excuse you from finding out what works best for YOU.

Train Hard
Train Smart
Stay Safe
 
#3
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

And while this cat is a very good shot, and he is fast, he would be S.O.L in a gunfight. He can't shoot on the move. He can't improvise. He's uncomfortable with anything that isn't 2-hand, standard draw, plant base, shoot for tiny groups. Basically, he's a good shot, poor fighter.
</div></div>

The entire IPSC/USPSA shooting game is based on being able to shoot one the move, improvise during the course of fire, starting in positions other than basic draw, as well as shooting off balance/off hand/ around barricades/under tables, through ports, with distractions etc... etc...


And tiny groups have very very little use in an USPSA style game.

Perhaps if you actually went and shot one you'd be able to better comment on them.


Also, I carry my competition gun, a 1911.

Theres tons of guys competing with glocks, are those not carry guns?

 
#4
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The entire IPSC/USPSA shooting game is based on being able to shoot one the move, improvise during the course of fire, starting in positions other than basic draw, as well as shooting off balance/off hand/ around barricades/under tables, through ports, with distractions etc... etc...


And tiny groups have very very little use in an USPSA style game.

Perhaps if you actually went and shot one you'd be able to better comment on them.


Also, I carry my competition gun, a 1911.

Theres tons of guys competing with glocks, are those not carry guns?

</div></div>

Good points, but I think that if the OP looked into IDPA instead of IPSC he would be pleasantly surprised.

Josh
 
#6
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

I can tell you that for years, I never had the desire to do any competition shooting either.....basically, I thought it was a waste of time, & ammo.
smirk.gif


I finally decided to go to a weekend shoot with a buddy wearing simply my duty belt & holster & plain ole Glock 22. DAMN!! WHAT A BLAST I HAD!!........
grin.gif
grin.gif


But also, how humbled I felt when I watched how insanely fast the other (non-LEO's) could manipulate their guns during reloads, shooting, etc....I was in awe with how easily they hit the A zone on targets while practically running in a different direction, popping in & out from cover, making incredibly fast "double-taps"....I felt woefully inadequte with my skills.
blush.gif
mad.gif


So I set about shooting & attending the comps every other weekend for about 6 months. I can't begin to explain how much better of a shooter I became by doing this. Drawing my weapon became effortless & extremely fast (as compared to before), making magazine changes & malfunction drills increased with speed & could be done blind folded.

Shooting on the move & with weird foot stances became second nature & easier to do....& my shooting confidence soared. All this was done wearing normal duty gear & my duty pistol.

Where it really came into light was when I put together some combat style shooting courses at our Dept. range for some "realistic" style training with a bunch of my co-workers. Needless to say, I was proud with how much "higher" my firearm handling & manipulation skills were than the others......and it showed.

After doing this style of "gun games" for 6 months, it was hilarious to me how insanely easy our Dept. Qual course suddenly became. LOL! If you enjoy shooting.......you will enjoy IPSC or IDPA. Your firearm handling & shooting skills <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">WILL</span></span> improve......as a matter of fact, I bet if you went to one shoot.......you wouldn't be able to keep yourself from attending another one.......I just know it!
 
#8
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

All I read are excuses. If you don't want to go then don't, but you WILL be better for it if you go. Shooting is a perishable skill and if your ass is on the line for duty being an "A" type person you want to be the best and survive. This sport will certainly help in that. Ever wonder why the top shooters in the sport make earn a living training military and LEO's. Check out people like Matt Burkett, Todd Jarret or the Army Marksmanship unit.
 
#9
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

I tend to shoot IDPA more but I can honestly tell you that competing has done more for my real-world pistol skills than A LOT of pistol training I've received in the military. The scenarios push you to learn how to shoot, move, and use cover. I don't use a high speed comp gun. I shoot the pistol I use for home defense. Does it put me at a slight disadvantage? Maybe... if I were shooting in the Olympics. But getting out and shooting stages with knowledgeable people on the weekends is a great way to improve pistol skills no matter what your level. I really think the military should incorporate more IDPA-style shooting into its training.
 
#10
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mgd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... I thought it was a waste of time, & ammo.
smirk.gif


I finally decided to go...
DAMN!! WHAT A BLAST I HAD!!........
grin.gif
grin.gif


I can't begin to explain how much better of a shooter I became by doing this...

If you enjoy shooting.......you will enjoy IPSC or IDPA.

Your firearm handling & shooting skills <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">WILL</span></span> improve.
As a matter of fact, I bet if you went to one shoot.......you wouldn't be able to keep yourself from attending another one.......I just know it!</div></div>

+1


Just go and do it.

I don't know anyone that competes to be competitive with each other. We all get a reward of some kind. Maybe you will be the next best & greatest. I don't care.
In fact, most shooters are as humble as they can be. They're eager to share information, techniques, and methods to shooting. I don't see much in the way of big egos.

For most of us "competing" is with ourselves, our skills, our own individual abilities.

Every time I go to the range I come back with not a trophy or plaque... not even into it for the bragging rights. The satisfaction that I get out of it is that I can do it "just a little better" maybe than I did before.

Like others have said: It's also really a blast.
 
#11
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

Well, I for one am totally against turning my hobbies into a competition. I know first hand from experience with when I used to be a blader, freestyle BMXer, skater, trap shooting, and recreational shooting in general. It's just not worth losing good friends all because I am more skilled than them. So therefore my buddies and I just stick to non-competitive games where we challenge ourselves rather than eachother. I'm not against competitive shooting in general, it's just not into my nature to turn my hobby into a contest.
 
#12
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

I agree with the points. I also think I may understand the paradoxes involved. However much competition might be configured to emulate something, anything; it quickly evolves into something that has less and less to do with that intended emulation, and into something that favors scores for their own sake. Techniques and implements become optimized for that function, and often become something that is counterintuitive and less effective for the intended emulation.

This is neither a good nor a bad thing, it's just a different thing, and a natural expression of the human creature's needs to excel and dominate.

Greg
 
#13
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

My approach to competition has rather less to do with dominating, and more to do with excelling. No matter whom and how many I may compete alongside, I'm only competing with myself. I find I am own most implacable opponent, and the only one I find satisfaction in besting. I can only win when that opponent does not best me. Of late, that's a significant task.

Greg
 
#14
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

It all changes on a two way range. Not that I've btdt. But there are a number of people who have and they will tell you the stress response will change things for the shooter, some for better and some for worse.
Training correctly is always good, perfect practice is indispensable. But never think that everybody who jumps out and gets that quick double tap on the steel plate 10 yards away can do it when somebody is trying to double tap his ass at the same time. I think that is what the op was thinking.
 
#15
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

<span style="font-weight: bold"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">What is the wrong mindset?</span></div></div></span>

The "wrong mindset" is being closed minded and not trying something before actually judging it.

Try IDPA.
 
#16
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

I hear lots of guys telling me why they don't need to compete, how it won't help, how it's unrealistic, etc, etc. I'll tell you the same thing I tell them, try it once, then make your comments and criticisms.

Go do it, then get back to us with your thoughts. I'd be interested to see if your opinion changes.
 
#17
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

Ditto that, and ditto the two way range thing. BTDT, and all I can say is that training, whatever it takes to pound in the muscle memory, is the key to surviving the initial contact. If you need to stop and think, there ain't enough luck in the world to bring you through to the part where the thinking pays off.

Like LL says, "You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight...".

Greg
 
#18
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

Arrogance: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions.

If you want to learn, be The Empty Cup.

To the original poster....go to a match and shoot it, then report back. I know why most LE decline invites to a competitive event. The collission of preception and reality is often very uncomfortable. See first paragraph...then see second paragraph.

Good luck to you.

 
#19
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

I spend a fair amount of time in both worlds and I have never talked with a competent trainer/officer who doesn't recognize the benefits to competitive shooting, be it Bullseye, Bianchi, PPC, IPSC, USPSA, Steel Challenge etc.

However I have met a whole lot of arrogant know it alls who make all kinds of excuses as to why they won't even go try it. Most of the time the easiest translation to the gibberish they are speaking is simply:

" I don't want to go and find out how big of difference there actually is between how bad ass I think I am and how bad ass I really am not. "


YMMV
 
#20
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

Nothing like fumbling a magazine change with the timer ticking, in front of dozens of competitors and spectators, or forgetting to shoot a target in the haste of completing the course of fire to realize there are challenges you didn't reckon with when reading the Ayoob articles.

And Massad Ayoob is one of many LEOs who strongly recommends competition shooting to enhance competence.
 
#21
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">What is the wrong mindset?</span></div></div></span>The "wrong mindset" is being closed minded and not trying something before actually judging it.Try IDPA.</div></div>Nicely put!
laugh.gif


Nobody cares about my judgment of whether a particular competitive shooter would or would not survive an 'actual' gunfight: That's just my ego talking. Besides, the prognosis isn't even relevant: all I want to know about a potential opponent is whether or not I will have to defend myself NOW. Everything else is secondary. Whether I will win or not has not been and can not be determined beforehand.

That, and I'd rather be lucky than good, any day.
 
#22
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

I think trigger time no matter what the venue will help you in your career and may be the difference in life and death, go shoot with him, practice practice practice!
 
#23
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend of mine who is into competition pistol shooting, IPSC I think...but not sure as I always tune him out when he drones on about it, is always trying to pressure me into competing with him. He keeps telling me it will help me to hone my skills and give me even more of an edge when i'm on and off duty (LE). I always respectfully decline.

And while this cat is a very good shot, and he is fast, he would be S.O.L in a gunfight. He can't shoot on the move. He can't improvise. He's uncomfortable with anything that isn't 2-hand, standard draw, plant base, shoot for tiny groups. Basically, he's a good shot, poor fighter.

My point is this:
While I do believe there is certainly a place for correct brand of competition in the development of overall weapon handling/fighting skills....IF one has the proper mindset. Inversely, the wrong kind of mindset or trying to adapt impractical competition to practical application is probably going to be counter-productive.

What is the wrong mindset?
I'm willing to bet that most of us here (if not all) are type "A" personalities. This means that we are aggressive, impatient, naturally competitive, and strive for dominance. Sound right? Thought so
wink.gif
. And when we compete, WE WIN...or else. And if we don't win, we will next time and cut corners doing it (or we pout and go home). We are going to put some fancy sights on the gun, drill holes in it to make it lighter, and re-chamber it to something that can't ever be used outside this competition. And we have then totally lost sight of our goal. Where we set out to learn and hone our basic skills, we are now using impractical gimmickry and compromising fundamentals in order to be competitive.

What is the right mindset?
If you compete to hone your skills, repeat this mantra. Remember that you are there for YOU, I don't care what the other guys do. I am going to practice and compete the right way. And if that doesn't keep you calm, I always say "he may be faster here, but in real life, he would choke and I would prevail."

I know that this goes without saying, but the closer your competition is to real-life, the more you will get out of it. Ever see a BR rifle deployed by a SWAT sniper? Ever carry a race gun for CCW? No? I rest my case.

And I know I have butted heads with fellow members on this before. Swearing by the equipment that top competitors is no different than asking "what rifle did the SEALs use on the pirates?" While it is a good barometer of quality and a good discussion topic, it does not mean that you can skip practice and it certainly doesn't excuse you from finding out what works best for YOU.

Train Hard
Train Smart
Stay Safe </div></div>
dumb
 
#24
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I for one am totally against turning my hobbies into a competition. I know first hand from experience with when I used to be a blader, freestyle BMXer, skater, trap shooting, and recreational shooting in general. It's just not worth losing good friends all because I am more skilled than them. So therefore my buddies and I just stick to non-competitive games where we challenge ourselves rather than eachother. I'm not against competitive shooting in general, it's just not into my nature to turn my hobby into a contest. </div></div>

So you have been so talented at four different endeavors that other participants didn't like you.....or maybe it was just four more groups of people who couldn't stand your personality and behavior........
 
#25
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's just not worth losing good friends all because I am more skilled than them.</div></div>

Unless someone sandbags, if you shoot together, everyone knows everyone else's capabilities. If your friends are are no longer friends because you best them at a match, they're poor losers...unless you're a poor winner. Or maybe you weren't really friends, just acquaintances.

I shoot at least two matches each month with one of my very best friends. He has never bested me. We have been close friends for more than 20 years. Anther friend I shot HP with for years had to DNF for me to shoot a higher score. I learned from him...a lot.
 
#26
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

STP's FV200 competitions are a lot less about winning than they are aout bringing everyone along to a higher level. Part of this probably stems from the total lack of prizes, certificates, whatever. The event experience and the cameradery are their own reward.
 
#27
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I shoot at least two matches each month with one of my very best friends. He has never bested me. We have been close friends for more than 20 years. </div></div>

OTOH, I finally got a LEO friend to shoot a local match with me a couple of months back. He had a good day, I had a really bad day, and he beat me. Now, I'll never be able to get him to go back.
shocked.gif
 
#28
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

I have LEO friends that I have done work with and have many times asked them to come shoot at my various competitions and they always decline to attend... One time I convinced one of the guys to shoot and it really reinforced some things that he didn't even know he should be practicing for when he's on duty... ie. magazine changes, multiple targets, etc...
 
#29
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

My inception to competition was originally PPC. As a young officer I thought it was the only competition!!! Then some friends convinced me to go to an IPSC match, (bear in mind this was in the late 80's early 90's)

Perception of reality!!! Hit hard and fast. I was with Duty Rig competing with race guns and accomplished shooters. I had a terrific time and found everyone most helpful regardless of my unclassified status. Actually when I became LEO instructor for our dept I encouraged the participation to our young deputies who were competent and eager to excel.

Will it make you a better shooter, you bet your ass it will. With an LE mindset and training and the additional participation in competition you can't lose. If your pride won't let you be humbled at first then I assure you, you have a lot to learn.

Go out and have fun, you do it to make you better not impress your friends!!
 
#30
Re: A quick rant about "competition"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing like fumbling a magazine change with the timer ticking, in front of dozens of competitors and spectators, or forgetting to shoot a target in the haste of completing the course of fire to realize there are challenges you didn't reckon with when reading the Ayoob articles. </div></div>

Brings humility and builds character.
 
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