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Rifle Scopes A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

LibertyOptics

Gunny Sergeant
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 20, 2004
4,584
1,561
Kalispell Montana
www.libertyoptics.com
Hiders,

I want to address a couple things here.

I see from time to time an expectation here that the "street price" of the Razor scope could/should/might fall in a few months as the scope has not "proved itself" to command its current price point, or perhaps the MAP of $1999 is a "test price" that will come down if the supply exceeds the demand.

I'm here to tell you that is NOT the case. The MAP will remain in effect at it's current levels throughout 2010. IF you are waiting for the price to come down before coming off the fence, you will be waiting a long time. The Razor is a very expensive and well-made product that is worth the money. It's price is not related to supply, it is what it is. It will not change for dealers for at least the next 13 months, and I have it in writing. Of course, Vortex can elect to have a promotional or rebate program anytime at their discretion, but that comes from them and it is something you can't count on.

The above post is simply for your FYI, made with the most current and factual information I have at my disposal.

Now, on to something else.

It has come to my attention, from a source I deem reliable, that a competing dealer here is working very hard to send information to the manufacturer of the Razor, that attempts to expose possible violations of MAP policy by Liberty Optics, and possibly other dealers, up to and including

<span style="font-style: italic">"sending screen snapshots of PM message strings, complete with the name of the dealer, with the (gasp!) offered price that is below MAP."</span>

This is problematic on many levels....may I?

First of all, I've only quoted prices to the members here as a way of conducting business. We exist to provide you with the best product at the best price and the use of the PM system is intended for personal communication to facilitate the potential for conducting business. I never really thought that PM quotes I provided were being funneled to other dealers to be paraded around to manufacturers. Has the Hide really come to this? How sad.

I want to make clear to all members here we have <span style="text-decoration: underline">never, ever,</span> conducted any activity with the sole purpose of setting up a competing dealer under false pretenses in order to glean prices and gain a competitive advantage. Our focus has solely been on providing the customer with the best service we can and I could care less about what other dealers are doing!! We can't control it and it has nothing to do with us. I don't have time for anything else.

We are what we are. Our history and growth has been documented online from the very beginning, for all the world to see. We are a small, family operated business that sets sales and operating goals and strives to meet them...while always putting the customer first, always, <span style="font-style: italic">even if it costs us a sale.</span>

We don't try to pretend what we are not. We don't have a commercial brick and mortar storefront but I do have a shop here and we receive visitors on a monthly basis for personalized service or hands on evaluation of items in stock, (yes we DO stock lots of items, as much as we can afford). We have been 100% transparent about being primarily an "E-business" with access to the owner (that's me) via email, PM and phone. All we do is sell optics for a living, this is not a hobby or little side venture or a spin-off from a huge commercial empire. No sales = no income, period.

On the upside, you always know who we are and exactly who you are dealing with, and have since our existence. What you <span style="text-decoration: underline">won't</span> get with us is clever little photo-shopped pics of inflated inventory or public statements that are ambiguous or misleading that are not consistent with reality or made in an effort to make us look bigger or badder than we are. We have no such baggage, thank God.

I mean, seriously, the above actions are some of the most pathetic I've ever heard of. Whomever is responsible, <span style="font-style: italic">since you have nothing better to do</span>, I ask that you act like you got a pair, <span style="font-style: italic">comprende</span>? I'm a GROWN MAN. I know the business world is brutal, competitive, and "dog eat dog", but let's act like alpha male dogs, not <span style="font-style: italic">bitches</span>.

Zeiss has it right, they do not accept any information from Zeiss dealers about potential MAP violations of other dealers. In other words, <span style="font-style: italic">shut up, put up, and go about your business</span>, and let US handle violations of our policies. Sounds like a "grown up" way to handle things, doesn't it? Perhaps other manufacturers will follow suit. Instead of giving the squeaky wheel the grease, just get rid of the squeaky wheel. Then perhaps some of us will rediscover our "Y" chromosome...
smirk.gif


Regrettably, in response to this ridiculous behavior, and until such behavior is discouraged here or prohibited by the manufacturer, we will not provide any PM quotes here for any Vortex product, nor will we provide them in an email until further notice.

We value your business and being a Vortex dealer, but unfortunately we have no other choice right now.

Thanks,

Scott Berish
LIBERTY Optics



 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Well, we know and Vortex knows that Scott and Liberty Optics is one of the LAST optics dealers out there that is HONEST. I mean you didn't see HIM posting erroneous, photoshopped pics of how many scopes he rec'd on the first run did ya? Scott does what he says he's gonna do. Keep doing things the way you have been, most here really appreciate it. Thanks Scott!
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

agreed... quoting a price isnt a violation of MAP pricing...sorry to hear that Scott...these days its harder for "men" to be MEN anymore
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">agreed... quoting a price isnt a violation of MAP pricing...sorry to hear that Scott...<span style="font-weight: bold">these days its harder for "men" to be MEN anymore </span></div></div>

No its not! Some just choose to act like bitches!
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

thats kinda what i was getting at USMCj why cant it still run on the principle of " Ill do what i tell you i will and nothing less. A handshake is all you need" Leave that playing detective and whining like a bitch to the women. You and i were thinking on the same thought plane USMCj i just worded it differently
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A PM or Email quote is not "advertising", thus not violating any MAP. </div></div>

I would like to agree with you but the reality is a violation of MAP is pretty much whatever a manufacturer says it is. For instance, my reference to calling us for a price in my OP is a violation of MAP policy and now that will be amended.
blush.gif
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Holy shit! You have got to be kidding me. Scott no worries here. Just based on the couple of transactions we've had I could careless at this point if you marked your products up 100% Im still coming back to you for your honest hardworking efforts to make a customer feel good about purchasing anything from Liberty Optics.

Scott and his wife live, eat and breath customer service not optics. Whoever you are making allegations of sorts...get a clue. Theres always someone out there trying to stomp on the little guys. Keep up the good work Scott.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Scott, I recently bought a high end optic from you, I could have gotten a better deal from another dealer. I went with you because I trust you. That will keep people coming back to you. I appreciate your honesty and your participation in this community.

I am sorry, but another dealer whining about you PRIVATELY telling a customer your selling price is bullshit. Period.

Your prices are not advertised, they are communicated to a potential buyer. If another dealer has a problem with that, they should adjust thier policies to only match ADVERTISED prices. If they choose not to, then they need to grow a set and deal with the outcome.

Every dealer should have the ability to determine profit on each item sold. I understand when a company does not want dealers ADVERTISING below a certain level. That could degrade the perception of the product, no big deal. But if a dealer does not advertise their prices, then a manufacturer should not care about how much profit a dealer makes per unit, they still make the same.

Someone whining about another dealer (and perhaps threatening to drop the brand, or whatever) is the lowest form of character. I don't know who this dealer is, or even care. YOU are my dealer, and it will stay that way.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On the upside, you always know who we are and exactly who you are dealing with, and have since our existence. <span style="color: #FF0000"> What you <span style="text-decoration: underline">won't</span> get with us is clever little photo-shopped pics of inflated inventory or public statements that are ambiguous or misleading that are not consistent with reality</span> or made in an effort to make us look bigger or badder than we are. We have no such baggage, thank God.

I mean, seriously, the above actions are some of the most pathetic I've ever heard of. Whomever is responsible, <span style="font-style: italic">since you have nothing better to do</span>, I ask that you act like you got a pair, <span style="font-style: italic">comprende</span>? I'm a GROWN MAN. I know the business world is brutal, competitive, and "dog eat dog", but let's act like alpha male dogs, not <span style="font-style: italic">bitches</span>.[/color]

Thanks,

Scott Berish
LIBERTY Optics



</div></div>
I still can't believe someone would go to those links to make themselves look better, that's why I will NEVER do business with that dealer EVER! I will however use you for ALL optics I need. I think you'll find that a large portion of hiders know how much integrity you have and trust your word and take it as fact. I will use you for ANY optics purchases I ever need and will ALWAYS refer customers to your business. A better man and business man just can't be found.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

That's crazy, and sad that someone would go that far to try and damage a dealer.

That's the problem with the MAP pricing rules and I've seen it happen before in other industries and such. The details of the policy might say "advertised" and none of us may consider an email quote advertising but the manuf. can decide it's whatever they want. Some will let you do the trick with the "real" price coming up when you add something in a shopping cart, but some if they hear about any sales below MAP get pissy.

It's gone so far in other cases that one dealer will call another to get a price below MAP quoted on the phone and then go to the manuf. and complain about it.

These days it's seems MAP is basically price fixing across the board with most companies. If they find out you are selling below it, advertised or not, they get upset.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A PM or Email quote is not "advertising", thus not violating any MAP. </div></div>

I would like to agree with you but the reality is a violation of MAP is pretty much whatever a manufacturer says it is. For instance, my reference to calling us for a price in my OP is a violation of MAP policy and now that will be amended.
blush.gif


</div></div>


Screw em then.... Focus on your other brands that don't try to tie your hands behind your back.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<span style="font-weight: bold">Scott</span>, you have outstanding customer service and are a great person to talk with.
After I had a chance to purchase my PH 3-15X50 from you, I decided that I would contact you on any new scope purchases <span style="font-weight: bold">first</span> , for the simple reason that I was treated so well the first time around. I have referred others to you because I know they will receive good treatment.
Scott I don’t know what to say. It is too bad this happens to you. I will call you first when I am ready to buy.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

same here, i only go through Scott...i told him that and then when i was in the market for a new NF F1 the first person i went to was Scott...ill always go to Scott first
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On the upside, you always know who we are and exactly who you are dealing with, and have since our existence. <span style="color: #FF0000"> What you <span style="text-decoration: underline">won't</span> get with us is clever little photo-shopped pics of inflated inventory or public statements that are ambiguous or misleading that are not consistent with reality</span> or made in an effort to make us look bigger or badder than we are. We have no such baggage, thank God.

I mean, seriously, the above actions are some of the most pathetic I've ever heard of. Whomever is responsible, <span style="font-style: italic">since you have nothing better to do</span>, I ask that you act like you got a pair, <span style="font-style: italic">comprende</span>? I'm a GROWN MAN. I know the business world is brutal, competitive, and "dog eat dog", but let's act like alpha male dogs, not <span style="font-style: italic">bitches</span>.[/color]

Thanks,

Scott Berish
LIBERTY Optics



</div></div>
I still can't believe someone would go to those links to make themselves look better, that's why I will NEVER do business with that dealer EVER! I will however use you for ALL optics I need. I think you'll find that a large portion of hiders know how much integrity you have and trust your word and take it as fact. I will use you for ANY optics purchases I ever need and will ALWAYS refer customers to your business. A better man and business man just can't be found. </div></div>

Scott,

Sorry to hear this is happening....

You have been and continue to be one of the good guys..... To have a little toad play games does not work
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Scott
It may not be that there are 'bitches' here ratting you out for offering very good prices. It may be some people have been window shopping and contacted other dealers to see if they would beat your price and the other company asked for proof of the offer. It may be the competition who is trying to stick it to you and all the rest of us. It is possible that someone here could be stupid or rotten enough to try to stick it to you but they would be cutting their nose off to spite their own face.

david
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">agreed... quoting a price isnt a violation of MAP pricing...sorry to hear that Scott...<span style="font-weight: bold">these days its harder for "men" to be MEN anymore </span></div></div>

No its not! Some just choose to act like bitches! </div></div>

+1
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Scott,

I'm very sorry for your troubles. In my dealings with your company, you have always been first class, and if you carry a product I want to buy, you are my first, and usually my last call.
Thank you for your always outstanding Customer Service....

Now on another subject related to Vortex, but NOT related to Liberty Optics, in another thread I made several comments about the new Vortex Razor, and it's pricing. In those postings I mention it's $1999.99 MAP price without rings, and lamented that I thought it was a tad too high, for the first advanced tactical scope, from this particular manufacturer.

My post was jumped upon by a few posters, who commented that I should "call around", and that the $1999.99 was not the "real street price". I did not follow-up and ask where they got these prices from, or who the vendors were. I did not ask because I knew then, as I know now, that any vendor that sells below his MAP price can loose their right to sell that product line. Please understand to a vendor the "MAP price" is the "street price".

So a word to the wise, if you buy optics and get a "great deal", far below the "advertised MAP price", do your vendor a favor and keep the "price" you "actually" paid for it to yourself. I'm sure that you are excited for getting such a deal, and you only want to throw some business his/her way. But you may be in fact jeopardizing that very business you wish to promote.....

Now I don't like MAP pricing, as a consumer. I view it from my very narrow perspective as price fixing. However, our vendors have to live in that world. Let's try to keep them all in business, and not drive any of them out of business.

Thanks for listening,

Bob

 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Scott and Liberty Optics are truely top notch and their CS beyond reproach.

Scott has been nothing but a staunch proponent of the Vortex line. Now that they have come into the "limelight", others are jumping on board to get a piece of that pie, the pie Scott has been espousing for some time.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

True enough that Scott has been a big proponent of Vortex. I have been pleased with the Vortex Viper glass I got from Liberty. But I would second the idea to focus on a brand that has a less intrusive style of handling MAP issues. I am sure Minox glass is as good or better and I am no longer on the fence about the Razor, rather I am looking at other scopes.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

I also would bet it's probably not someone out to damage liberty as a customer. Usually when this stuff happens it's when a customer gets a price, then calls up another dealer to get a price match or tells the dealer that "x" dealer sells it for $300 less and then that dealer complains to the manufacturer.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

I buy optics from Scott period. Unless it were a used scope or trade or something else of that sort, I simply will not purchase from anyone else. His track record for service stands on its own, and makes it worth going through him, regardless of price point.
Perhaps rather than complaining to the manufacture, a competing retailer should instead reflect upon their own business strategy to find out why their price is not competitive. For me, price fixing/MAP seams somewhat socialist in nature and is contrary to free market economic princaples.

As for Vortex, I guess they can do what they want. They seem to make good products,(I own a pair of 10x42 viper bino's)and sell them at good price points. But if it were me launching a new tactical product line at the start of 2010, I would think real hard about strong arming a widely known internet retailer with an impecable reputation like Scott. His opinion and recomendation goes a long ways, getting people to purchase new to the market items that they might not otherwise have purchased.

For instance, next years tax return could easily go towards a 5-20 razor, which Scott carries, or it could go towards a premier, which he also carries. Or maybe I go cheap and instead have to chose between a new viper tactical scope or the IOR 2.5-10 ffp that he also carries. My decision will be greatly impacted by his recomendations, which are without exception honest and forthwrite.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Norwiscutter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But if it were me launching a new tactical product line at the start of 2010, I would think real hard about strong arming a widely known internet retailer with an impecable reputation like Scott. </div></div>

Thank you very much, and let me address this. The staff at Vortex is among the very finest I've ever worked with since I've been doing this. Top-notch folks.

Nearly every manufacturer has MAP policies and additional standards they expect their dealers to abide by. Recent events have made things a bit uncomfortable for all parties involved and I'm simply providing clarity of perspective from my side of the fence. Vortex is not strong arming us. They are likely struggling to find answers to this difficult situation also. I'm controlling what I can, and we'll let the chips fall as they may.

Scott
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

I find the whole MAP thing disgusting, if as a retailer you can sell products and still make a profit so be it, if another retailer cannot match your prices fuck him, its called capitalism, if Vortex has a problem with capitalism I say fuck you and your products, if on the other hand you want your products out in the market with happy customers leave your retailers alone, if one is undercutting the other tell the cry babies to reduce there overhead so they can still make a profit and sell your products. Since I live in TEXAS, if SWFA and LibertyOptics sold the same product at the same price, I would buy from Scott due to sales tax.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

I agree, MAP sucks, Scott is great and I'm very happy to buy from him.

Now, playing devils advocate, I'll tell you that MAP probably actually helps Scott more than it hurts him. If it wasn't for MAP, a big store that buys 100 (maybe even 1000) times the Vortex products that Scott does could crush Scott. We'll use Cabelas as an example.

I'm sure Cabelas pays less than Scott does for the same products due to the fact that they buy in much higher volumes. If it wasn't for MAP they could advertise and sell scopes for possibly even less than Scott pays for them all while still making a profit. This would put Scott out of business and we'd have no small dealers with great service to buy from.

MAP sucks, but I do believe it has some merit and helps more than some realize.

Again, just playing devils advocate, I think it's BS that Scott can't charge whatever he wants.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

If it weren't for Liberty Optics I would know nothing about Vortex Optics.

My first purchase from Scott was a Viper. I was thoroughly impressed. Both with the scope and with the dealer. I have since bought other stuff from Scott. If he carries it I get it from him. Period.

It's awesome Vortex is listening to the consumer about the features we want in our optics. I hope they're listening to us about what we like in our dealers, too. I won't do business with a "tattle tale" dealer. I don't shop by price alone. Service and integrity gets my vote. I vote with my wallet.

In my real life I manage the daily activities of 10 machining centers and one turning center. I spend A LOT on cutting tools to keep them running. It's amazing the service you get when you're a national industrial supply company's largest local account. Scott treats me as well as they do.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, playing devils advocate, I'll tell you that MAP probably actually helps Scott more than it hurts him. If it wasn't for MAP, a big store that buys 100 (maybe even 1000) times the Vortex products that Scott does could crush Scott. We'll use Cabelas as an example.

I'm sure Cabelas pays less than Scott does for the same products due to the fact that they buy in much higher volumes. If it wasn't for MAP they could advertise and sell scopes for possibly even less than Scott pays for them all while still making a profit. This would put Scott out of business and we'd have no small dealers with great service to buy from.

</div></div>

the funny part is it seems the big dealer is bitching about the little dealer in this case
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find the whole MAP thing disgusting, if as a retailer you can sell products and still make a profit so be it, if another retailer cannot match your prices fuck him, its called capitalism, if Vortex has a problem with capitalism I say fuck you and your products, if on the other hand you want your products out in the market with happy customers leave your retailers alone, if one is undercutting the other tell the cry babies to reduce there overhead so they can still make a profit and sell your products. Since I live in TEXAS, if SWFA and LibertyOptics sold the same product at the same price, I would buy from Scott due to sales tax. </div></div>

I'd still buy from Scott if he was in Tx and SWFA wasn't. His service warrants loyalty and he has mine.
wink.gif
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Norwiscutter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for Vortex, I guess they can do what they want. They seem to make good products,(I own a pair of 10x42 viper bino's)and sell them at good price points. But if it were me launching a new tactical product line at the start of 2010, I would think real hard about strong arming a widely known internet retailer with an impecable reputation like Scott. His opinion and recomendation goes a long ways, getting people to purchase new to the market items that they might not otherwise have purchased.

For instance, next years tax return could easily go towards a 5-20 razor, which Scott carries, or it could go towards a premier, which he also carries. Or maybe I go cheap and instead have to chose between a new viper tactical scope or the IOR 2.5-10 ffp that he also carries. My decision will be greatly impacted by his recomendations, which are without exception honest and forthwrite. </div></div>

Hear Hear!!

The power of the internet and the rapid word of mouth that it gives is <span style="text-decoration: underline">NOT</span> to be underestimated!

I have never dealt with Scott, but after reading the plaudits you have received here Scott, from people who's opinion I trust, you can rest assured that I will be contacting you when I need optics.

Manufacturers, and dealers NEED to take into account the <span style="font-style: italic">POWER</span> of word of mouth. My mate Bill brings a lot of people into deer stalking in the UK, and he ALWAYS recommended Swarovski, he's been to the factory, talks to the MD in the UK etc. One day they shat on him (Not a <span style="font-style: italic">lot</span> of money, but it was the <span style="font-style: italic">PRINCIPLE </span>of the thing). Well he recommends NIGHTFORCE now because he did something stupid, and they replaced the damaged part for free, knowing full well that it was his fault the damage occured.

We have a powerful voice Gentlemen. Lets use it wisely.

MAP <span style="text-decoration: underline">IS</span> price fixing. Ask your congressman if it helps or hinders a free market economy.

In the meantime, Scott I wish you all the best, you've just gained a new customer and all you had to do was be a nice guy to my friends. Imagine that!

Word of mouth gentlemen!

Neil
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It has come to my attention, from a source I deem reliable, that a competing dealer here is working very hard to send information to the manufacturer of the Razor, that attempts to expose possible violations of MAP policy by Liberty Optics, and possibly other dealers, up to and including

<span style="font-style: italic">"sending screen snapshots of PM message strings, complete with the name of the dealer, with the (gasp!) offered price that is below MAP."</span>
</div></div>

Scott,

I've been sending the nude snapshots along with the sex laced PM's you've been sending me of yourself too IOR, Vortex, Leupold, Bushnell, Nikon, Ziess, Trijicon, Premier, The FBI, CIA, USMC, and Playgirl every since you started sending them to me.

How many times do I have to tell you I"M NOT IN LOVE WITH YOU ANYMORE!

-Pat
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find the whole MAP thing disgusting, if as a retailer you can sell products and still make a profit so be it, if another retailer cannot match your prices fuck him, its called capitalism, if Vortex has a problem with capitalism I say fuck you and your products, if on the other hand you want your products out in the market with happy customers leave your retailers alone, if one is undercutting the other tell the cry babies to reduce there overhead so they can still make a profit and sell your products. Since I live in TEXAS, if SWFA and LibertyOptics sold the same product at the same price, I would buy from Scott due to sales tax. </div></div>


this is almost exactly what I was going to post.... I guess the free market is a bitch sometimes, huh?

as for vortex, if it weren't for this website, and scott...I never would have known about them...and as impressed as I have been with their products, I will no doubt own more in the future.



 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

@Scott,

In the coming year I will be building a 250-3000 walking hunter. I will be needing some glass, and had been on your site looking at the 2x7-35 Diamondback. For what I have in mind that little scopes features look just about perfect. I hope you will still be able to sell me a Vortex scope. If not, then I guess I will need to get with you to find a different brand that approximates the above mentioned.

I bought my first "real" scope from Scott; it seriously changed how I shoot. He keeps it real, and I value that in a dealer.

Good Hunting,
Gary
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

I don't like the idea of MAP, but I agree with Jason that sometimes it is a necessary evil. What it comes down to in my mind is if the dealers infight like spoiled brats, and if the MFG is nazi about it.

I will not jump down Vortex's throat here as some have, but I would offer them the word of caution that there is already plenty of caveat swirling around out there... because of the way this scope just blew into town like a dusty cowpoke, claiming he's Wyatt Earp. Were I to have to handle this, I'd tell the conspiring, whining dealer to STFU, as Zeiss does to theirs... and don't unnecessarily harang dealers over pricing issues. MAP is MAP, but not allowing them to conduct their own business in private is the fastest way to get dropped like a hot rock. Not saying vortex does this, just putting it out there for some perspective from someone considering spending some serious coin on their stuff. Vortex, you might wanna apply some reins before the "other guys" ruin this for you.

I was, am still am quite interested in adding the razor and some of the upcomming 2010 vortex scopes to my collection... but where I was treading cautiously before, I am hesitant to tread at all. Drama is not an effective advertising tool, and it makes the product, company, and dealers look like a PITA rather than a good deal. Personally, wether or not I buy the Razor isn't what chafes me. Its the fact that I want to know who is comminting sedition against other vendors, so I don't give them my money. As far as I know there are only enough dealers of this thing to count on one hand, so there can't be that many of them. Guess the solution is just to buy it from Scott and let the others fend for themselves.

If you are on the fence as I am, I suggest we get off before they turn on the electricity. my .02 and then some...
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

The Razor is worth MORE than the MAP (in my opinion), Vortex is operated by some of the best people I've met in the industry, and Scott has always provided me with excellent customer service.

Too bad stuff like this goes on...
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, MAP sucks, Scott is great and I'm very happy to buy from him.

Now, playing devils advocate, I'll tell you that MAP probably actually helps Scott more than it hurts him. If it wasn't for MAP, a big store that buys 100 (maybe even 1000) times the Vortex products that Scott does could crush Scott. We'll use Cabelas as an example.

I'm sure Cabelas pays less than Scott does for the same products due to the fact that they buy in much higher volumes. If it wasn't for MAP they could advertise and sell scopes for possibly even less than Scott pays for them all while still making a profit. This would put Scott out of business and we'd have no small dealers with great service to buy from.

MAP sucks, but I do believe it has some merit and helps more than some realize.

Again, just playing devils advocate, I think it's BS that Scott can't charge whatever he wants. </div></div>

MAP pricing deals with advertising, what Scott is describing a whole different level of retarded. Vortex's price policy is second only to NF, both of which I will not likely support because of.

While its a real bitch move to try and rat out someone for a business edge I blame Vortex for putting Scott in this position.

I have no issue with MAP, this isn't a MAP issue though.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Hiders,

I really appreciate the support. You guys are above and beyond outstanding!

I was on the phone with my Vortex rep from 2000 - 2130 hours Central time this evening, which in itself is very telling, on his own time, on his personal phone, they read the forums and this thread, really top notch folks through and through.

To be fair, Vortex Optics is not really the MAP Nazis I may have regrettably had a hand in painting them as, I've been slapped once before, threw a Vortex product on ebay with a .01 starting bid when I first started, a blatant violation of the policy, turned in by a dealer, no big deal, lesson learned and not repeated.

It's human nature....when one is badgered, pestered, harrassed repeatedly....on the same issue over and over, to just want it to stop...people get worn down. That's what prompts a phone call... In light of recent events and the stuff that's been put out there that I've looked the other way on, the elaborate measures taken to which I see as an attempt to sabotage a healthy business relationship with a manufacturer that we really like, was just too much. Where are the sideboards? I made them clear in my initial post where they are with us.

I don't like or want the drama either, neither does Vortex, neither does the brass here. It's not about me. I've made my point. I'm not changing anything, all the ducks are in a row, everything is true, but no reason to beat a dying horse. We really are all in this together, cannibalism isn't a sound strategy for the long term.

Scott
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hiders,

I really appreciate the support. You guys are above and beyond outstanding!

I was on the phone with my Vortex rep from 2000 - 2130 hours Central time this evening, which in itself is very telling, on his own time, on his personal phone, they read the forums and this thread, really top notch folks through and through.

To be fair, Vortex Optics is not really the MAP Nazis I may have regrettably had a hand in painting them as, I've been slapped once before, threw a Vortex product on ebay with a .01 starting bid when I first started, a blatant violation of the policy, turned in by a dealer, no big deal, lesson learned and not repeated.

It's human nature....when one is badgered, pestered, harrassed repeatedly....on the same issue over and over, to just want it to stop...people get worn down. That's what prompts a phone call... In light of recent events and the stuff that's been put out there that I've looked the other way on, the elaborate measures taken to which I see as an attempt to sabotage a healthy business relationship with a manufacturer that we really like, was just too much. Where are the sideboards? I made them clear in my initial post where they are with us.

I don't like or want the drama either, neither does Vortex, neither does the brass here. It's not about me. I've made my point. I'm not changing anything, all the ducks are in a row, everything is true, but no reason to beat a dying horse. We really are all in this together, cannibalism isn't a sound strategy for the long term.

Scott </div></div>
Scott,
It is unfortunate that other Vortex "dealers" have stooped to these lows. What they're missing is that servicing plays a big part when a customer makes a purchase decision. While price is always a strong consideration, the folks that frequent these kind of boards (and buy this kind of equipment) want and NEED a dealer to do more than swipe their credit card & send them a tracking number. You have been absolutely exceptional when it comes to product knowledge, competitive pricing, and post sale servicing. That is why you're successful, NOT just because you offer fair, competitive/aggressive pricing. Whoever "ratted" you out is missing the forest for the trees in this regard. Price isn't the only reason a customer buys such a specialized, niche product like a tactical scope, spotting scope or alpha binoculars from a given dealer. Reputation, character, product knowledge, and SERVICE are the way to build a successful, long term business. Vortex is going after the wrong issue, which is ensuring dealers are well trained in selling their products. If they do this, they should not have to worry about MAP because they provide a great product & value in the optics realm.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Scott, I am not surprised, but am very disappointed that individuals would stoop to crap like you reported done in an effort to affect your business. That's the kind of stuff that will insure a dealer never sees a dollar of mine.

Folks, Scott is an example of customer service that most could learn from. As a shooter, I have never had the luxury to make large purchases that many folks make when buying top end gear. I do however, have some top end gear that I have acquired from years of "horse-trading".
Liberty Optics is one entity that helped this shooter get to where he is gear-wise.
I have never made a purchase from Scott that made it a red letter day for Scott's profit margin, but he has always been helpful and informative, and went the distance when problems with products have arisen. This is what earns repeat business and makes customers for life, a point too many in today's market miss.
I don't know when I will be able to buy high dollar optics whenever I like, but the service I have received over the past few years has insured that if and when I can, Scott will get the call if what I'm looking for is something he carries.

My experience with Scott is that he is genuinely concerned with helping a customer get the best bang for their buck, even at the risk of diminishing his bottom line (within reason).

Again, I am disappointed by those that would stoop to underhanded measures, I'm guessing they are threatened by honesty and integrity.


 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Scott..My friend, This ain't no thing at all . Seems when the student is ready a teacher will appear . We learn here, there are a bunch of low life,treacherous small minded bastards lerking out on the primiter. we improvise, ovecome and adapt.nuff said.
Time for me to spend more money on optics. be calling you this next week
ASKING FOR YOUR PERSONAL RECOMMENDATION AGAIN JIM
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

I'm glad to know they are listening Scott. I didn't mean to imply they were nazis, I only meant to paint a hypothetical situation.

That said, I'm not nervous about the quality of the products or the mfg, I just don't want my funds going to support any assinine behavior on the part of any dealer who should know better if their name is painted in orange around here.

Scott, I need a low power optic for an AR that won't break the bank wide open ($500 or less?). Please shoot me some recommendations of stuff you stock. I check my PMs & mail frequently.

Best of luck brother. Whoever the subversive is should tread very carefully. If they were to be outed it could be quite destructive to their business on the HIDE. They might do well to realize they could shoot themselves in the foot very easily.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Well, I would not like to buy anything from the dealer that tried to get you in trouble -- wish I knew who it was.

And while this probably isn't what you intended, I don't want to buy a product from a company that calls emails a violation of MAP pricing guidelines.

I am left, on the other hand, with a favourable impression of Scott and Liberty Optics. Please carry S&B!
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

at some point karma will kick in.and the person or persons that stirred all the mess up will get it back.we have never done business with scott . but wish you and your business well.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A PM or Email quote is not "advertising", thus not violating any MAP. </div></div>

I would like to agree with you but the reality is a violation of MAP is pretty much whatever a manufacturer says it is. For instance, my reference to calling us for a price in my OP is a violation of MAP policy and now that will be amended.
blush.gif


</div></div>
Then, the only way to get a Vortex price is to get it off your web-site?
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

I hope this all blows over. I don't blame anyone in this except Vendor X. I'll continue to do business with Scott and will consider and recommend Vortex products. The ones me and my friends own or have owned are great value for the money.

As far as the Razor HD scope is concerned, it wasn't quite what I wanted compared to the other two scopes I considered - the NF F1 and the PH 3-15X50. And that was primarily because of the magnification range. I think even if it was the same, the FOV @ 5X is still over 20' @ 100 yards vs. 13.6' for the Razor.
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magnumdood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A PM or Email quote is not "advertising", thus not violating any MAP. </div></div>

I would like to agree with you but the reality is a violation of MAP is pretty much whatever a manufacturer says it is. For instance, my reference to calling us for a price in my OP is a violation of MAP policy and now that will be amended.
blush.gif


</div></div>
Then, the only way to get a Vortex price is to get it off your web-site?

</div></div>

I think that WOULD be a violation of MAP pricing. I believe you will have to call for the actual/lowest price. AFAIK
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

makes me want to order a scope from liberty........



I have had a few dealings with Scott---all first class and really helpful. I will be looking to buy again around tax time and scott will get my business
 
Re: A word on Vortex Razor HD pricing...and PMs

Scott; its nice to know there are people who believe that honor and honesty are still a way of life in places. Especially in the retail world. To bad those without either try to undermine those that live and stand by their word. I look forward to doing business in the future with a man who lives by the power of his word and the strength of his handshake. Sorry for your grief.