Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

[Wannashootit]

I get to the range with my two sons late this morning, and when we get to the entry I notice all the RSO's are huddled down at the far end of the 100 yd. section. Lots of commotion, I question a few guys near the entry (they wouldn't let us in , yet) and find out that an M1A had apparently just blown up.

FORTUNATELY, the shooter was not seriously injured. He sustained shrapnel wounds to his right arm which they were bandaging, but he declined an ambulance and was going to the ER after the rest of the staff got his vehicle loaded back up. The mag was completely blown apart according to my son (I didn't see the rifle). I spoke with the head RSO after the range closed down to get his take on what happened. I'll mention that I just completed my very FIRST foray into handloading last night- so the timing of this accident was, well...let's just say "disconcerting". I was almost too freaked out to take our rifles outta their cases.

According to the RSO, when he picked up the rifle it was in full battery- although the owner denied that was the case. In his opinion, it was case failure- he said the brass looked a bit "crappy" (his word). However, the shooter told him that he had just gotten it back after sending it to Springfield- although he didn't elaborate on why he sent it to them or what work was done. The RSO also mentioned that he had heard of a similar incident with an M1A recently, and was going to look into it.

For me, this was kind of an omen. Although I know handloading is a dangerous activity, getting a "glimpse" of what can happen really drove the point home. I took a painstaking amount of time with reloading last night- as I should have. Even though I bought a progressive press, I painstakingly weighed nearly every charge and put the calipers on every second or third round. Four different bullets, for two different guns (both .223, but one a Rem. 700 and other a Mini) and a total of sixteen bullet/powder weight combinations. Took me five hours to do 150 rounds.

So, in speaking with the RSO at the end of the day I showed him some of my brass from the Mini, just to get his opinion. He said the primers (CCI) looked a bit flat- nothing serious, but he asked if I was shooting hot loads. I told him no- that I followed Sierra's advice, and started at 8% under max for the bullet/gun (semi or bolt per the manual)and then two more loads each increasing by 1/2 grain. Wasn't loading anywhere close to max. So, now for the questions...

1) I saw what he meant by "flat" primer, but don't understand what the cause could be, if it's not a hot load.

2)He asked about the powder (Varget), and I explained that I was a bit frustrated in that I was often getting a .2 gr variation with the case-activated powder drop. What's the point in doing .5 grain test loads if they can be "off" by half of that? He said that Varget's a great powder, but suggested I might want to try the H335 as it will feed more precisely. Opinions?

3) If it was indeed case separation as he suspects, it scares the hell out of me to be re-using brass. Can someone please detail (and, pics would be GREAT) of the danger signs to be looking for? As a newb, I try to understand the physics here...I know the cases stretch, and need to be trimmed. Obviously, if the case is stretched, the case wall has become thinner. So, how do you know when you've reached the point when the case wall thickness is insufficient?

4)I was getting a variation of a couple of thousandths with the bullet seating die, as well. With this, do you err on the short, or the long, side of COAL? I may have been wrong, but I figured with powder- better less, than more...and figured I'd be better off if the overall length were a couple thousandths short, rather than long. Is this correct? How close, is close enough- what are the tolerances? This question is geared more for an answer from a safety perspective first, with accuracy second.

Sorry about the long-winded post. Any info and insight you guys can provide to help make this a safer experience is very much appreciated. BTW- our handloads shot great- far better than factory ammo we'd been using...

 

[Mschloss]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

Wow.. sad story with a lucky ending. I too get a little freaked out when I really think what could happen if I screw up my handloads. However, due dilligence at the reloading bench makes this hobby safe and fully worth the money saved (which is burned up shooting 3-4x more).

First, I only load my centerfire rifle rounds (300 win, 45-70, and 270 wsm) on a single stage press to avoid some of the inconsistencies inherent in a progressive press. I use an RCBS chargemaster for throwing powder which is accurate to .1 grain. After loading a few boxes of my handgun rounds this way, I invested in a progressive press for these loads. I am much more comfortable with slight load differences in my handgun ammo. It seems as though by weighing your loads, you are protecting yourself from these issues at the expense of time (worth it in my opinion)

1) A flat primer is the first sign of high pressure and by definition is a red flag.

2)Some powders do meter more accurately than others.

3) No pictures.. but there is an easy way to check your brass for early signs of case head separation. The first signs are internal to the case. Take a paper clip and bend it open. At one side make a small bend and use it as a "feeler." If the inside wall is smooth you should be good to go. If you feel a circumferential groove near the case head chuck the brass. I have some 300 win brass on its 6th reload with no signs of issues.

4)A few thousands of an inch shouldn't be a problem. What you dont want is the bullet jammed into the lands, potentially increasing pressure. There are many posts regarding ideal COL using gauges to determine where your lands start and where your bullet should be seated in relation to the lands. In general though if you are worried, shorter is possibly safer.

 

[Prairie Wolf]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

1. A flat primer can be a sign of high pressure. It can also be excess headspace, or just soft primers.

2. Ball is usually easier to meter, but you probably lose any advantage with temp sensitivity.

3. Case head separation can be made less likely by resizing cases the minimum amount needed. Most of the the time it is caused by the case stretching at firing, and being shortened at resizing. As stated above, you can detect the thinning.

4. It can get you either way. Generally pressure increases the deeper you seat into the case because case volume is being taken up. A few thousandths won't matter for this though. If you are close to the lands, pressures can also rise, because the bullet hasn't had time to build enough speed to make that transition and slows down. You wouldn't want to take a max load and then load it to jam the bullet into the rifling.

It also makes a difference if you are measuring with a comparator or not. Bullets vary in length, but they might still have consistent 'jump' at the ogive even in the overall length varies.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1) I saw what he meant by "flat" primer, but don't understand what the cause could be, if it's not a hot load.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Flat primers ARE USUALLY a sign of a high pressure load but in auto guns it may also be a sign of a loose chamber when the brass that is shoved forward into the chamber is off the bolt face, slams back into the bolt face upon firing. I have a Garand that shoots wonderfully but it has flattened primers for that reason. Bolt guns that exhibit this need to visit a gun smith.</span>

2)He asked about the powder (Varget), and I explained that I was a bit frustrated in that I was often getting a .2 gr variation with the case-activated powder drop. What's the point in doing .5 grain test loads if they can be "off" by half of that? He said that Varget's a great powder, but suggested I might want to try the H335 as it will feed more precisely. Opinions?

<span style="font-weight: bold"> Rifle loads should not be trusted to powder throwers. Weigh each load before adding the boolet</span>

3) If it was indeed case separation as he suspects, it scares the hell out of me to be re-using brass. Can someone please detail (and, pics would be GREAT) of the danger signs to be looking for? As a newb, I try to understand the physics here...I know the cases stretch, and need to be trimmed. Obviously, if the case is stretched, the case wall has become thinner. So, how do you know when you've reached the point when the case wall thickness is insufficient?

<span style="font-weight: bold">See above for the paper clip trick, watch for bright rings AFTER firing about 1/4" up from the base.</span>

4)I was getting a variation of a couple of thousandths with the bullet seating die, as well. With this, do you err on the short, or the long, side of COAL? I may have been wrong, but I figured with powder- better less, than more...and figured I'd be better off if the overall length were a couple thousandths short, rather than long. Is this correct? How close, is close enough- what are the tolerances? This question is geared more for an answer from a safety perspective first, with accuracy second.

<span style="font-weight: bold">A couple thou shouldn't matter if you are not loading near the maximum. At max fill little bits mean ALOT</span>
</div></div>

Reloading is generally safe if you have a clue about what you are doing. When starting out, use a commonly accepted powder, never leave powder out or in the hopper where it can be mistaken for something else, load into the lands carefully, don't change more than one thing at a time until you know what the result will be prior to doing it.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

Reading pressure signs is an important thing to learn. Flattened primers CAN be a sign of high pressure, OR they can be just a normal part of shooting. You really can't make a determination on what is a safe load, or not, based on reading a primer.

Flattened primers with soot around the seam, hard bolt lift, ejector divots and chunks of missing rim from the extractor pulling metal off, are all pretty good indicatons that you're reaching the higher end of the spectrum.

This being said, often improper sizing of cases is to blame for more case head separations, than over filling a rifle case.

Learn how to properly headspace your brass after firing and you've got 85% of the problem licked.

Don't use improper powders, such as fast pistol powders as a substitute for rifle powders and there's another 5% of the problem eliminated.

Follow the book loads and learn to read pressure signs and there's 5% down the drain.

Inspect your weapons regularly for 3% of the KaBoom problem.

And don't go shooting hot loads developed in winter months, in the dead of summer, after leaving them in the sun for an hour, for the final 2%.

Chris

 

[jakermeister]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

Don't let it freak you out. Semi Autos have a different max. Brass does play a good role in safety but its where people like to go cheap. Don't pick up brass off the ground and reuse it because another person could have done that and left it there (possibly fired many times as well). If you do over charge you'll know it. You'll mostly likely be spilling out over the case. Varget is a stick powder (doesn't measure well) but is awesome. If your really worried about pressure you could invest in a chronograph. Flat primers are usually common. Cratering primers should send up a red flag. Just pay attention to what your doing and you should be fine. Eventually you'll get tired of preping brass and have your kid doing it

.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

OK using Varget you can not get enough into the case with a 223 and any projectile 69gr or under so stick with Varget it is safe what i would do is measire a fired case from your bolt action and semi auto with a case length guage they used to be stoney point but now Hornady makes them. this will allow you to measure from the base of the case to the datum point ont he shoulder on the case you use a digital vernier as it is the easiest as you zero the fired case in the guage and then size the case by adjusting the die a thread higher than the shell holder, most die companies say to wind down the die until it hits the shell holder this actualy creates excessive headspace and you will end up with case seperations. so wind the die up and slowly size cases until the case is sized to around .001" shorter than the fired case by just moving the die towards the shell holder a small amount each time sizing a freshly fired case dont use the same case as it will work harden and will not give the correct reading. You might have to buy 2 die sets and load your semi and bolt action with the different dies as you will setup for a sizing die to each chamber and then the seating die for each projectile you might get away using the same seating die setup for both rifles but it is likley you will want to make each round perfect.

Also by going with the Sierra Manual and using Sierra Projectiles if you use there max OAl you will also be quite safe.

So just continue with the loading you are doing and for precision loading use a single stage but if you want to quickly load for the semi auto or lots of rounds you can use the progressive i have used Dillon 650's and 1050's for 223 and they are very accurate with Benchmark but use the Varget you have up as it is probably the safest powder you can use as you could almost fill the case up and seat a bullet and it will not blow up even when you get above 100degF

So get a few more things to make the sizing of your cases more accurate and you will be good to go and dont change powders now wait until you have a handle on it and if you do change it look at benchmark forget about ball powder as it is not temperature stable like the Hodgdon Extreem series made just down the road from me here in Australia

 

[madd0c]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

Also, reloading for the m1a is a different beast. It still has a pucker factor for many people including me. I have reloaded a couple thousand rounds for my m1as and I had one case head seperation. Luckily in battery and the retained forward part of the case stopped the bolt from closing on the next round. Even though this was "once fired" LC brass, that was enough for me to pull all the bullets on that batch and do the "paperclip" test, but I used a dental pick.
I tossed 5 of the 50 cases just because I wasn't sure. A $0.25 case isn;t worth an eye or a face or worse.

Also, with the m1a I toss the brass after the 4th load even if I don't feel a ring with the pick.

The final comment I will make is that the reason the m1a (and the M1) are different than the bolt guns is the risk of an out of battery slamfire. I don't own a mini, but 223 is inherently less prone to slamfire because of the lighter firing pin.
Primer seating is EXTREMELY important for semi-autos and doubly so for the m1 style platforms.

Zediker has excellent info on reloading for the m1a, and it mostly applies to other semi-auto platforms as well.

http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf

madd0c

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

Thanks for all the good information guys.
We had a long discussion at the range. The RSO's there- just like the shooters on this forum- are a great bunch that enjoy being helpful. Our first time there, he spent over an hour with my son helping him sight-in his Rem 700 and explaining the basics.

He was intent on driving home the point that max load does not translate to max accuracy, and that often max accuracy is obtained towards the minimum load. I realize that doesn't extend into long-range shooting though, where you need to carry substantial velocity for long distances. By the time we're ready to get into the long range stuff we'll have a lot more experience at handloading.

He also mentioned getting a chrony- as well as several other books and read, read, read...and for the foreseeable future I'm gonna continue to use the progressive press as a single until I'm confident in my ability- and the press's...

I'm trying to the extent possible to use all equip from the same manuf (Hornady) I figure that consistency can't hurt.

Im getting ready to order the rest of the equip. including a tumbler and case trimmer. Bill- is what you're referring to this headspace gauge?

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Headspace-Kit-With-Body-1-Each/

If there are any other equip/items that add to safety, please suggest them.

Thanks again!

 

[KClark]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

M1A self-disassembly: M1A Det

 

[prosise]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

<span style="color: #FF0000">1) I saw what he meant by "flat" primer, but don't understand what the cause could be, if it's not a hot load.</span>

When you prime on a large press it sometimes flattens the primers, no biggie.

<span style="color: #FF0000">2)He asked about the powder (Varget), and I explained that I was a bit frustrated in that I was often getting a .2 gr variation with the case-activated powder drop. What's the point in doing .5 grain test loads if they can be "off" by half of that? He said that Varget's a great powder, but suggested I might want to try the H335 as it will feed more precisely. Opinions?</span>

Extruded, or pellet powders are tougher to dispense. Nature of the beast. I do not know the setup you are using, If you can try moving your powder drop to someplace not mounted on the table you are reloading on. The vibrations on the table tend to cause powders to settle in the powder drop area. And always throw a couple loads with your powder dispenser before you start loading brass. If you are on a progressive press this does not apply. ball powders measure very nicely.


<span style="color: #FF0000">3) If it was indeed case separation as he suspects, it scares the hell out of me to be re-using brass. Can someone please detail (and, pics would be GREAT) of the danger signs to be looking for? As a newb, I try to understand the physics here...I know the cases stretch, and need to be trimmed. Obviously, if the case is stretched, the case wall has become thinner. So, how do you know when you've reached the point when the case wall thickness is insufficient?</span>

Dont speculate on the failure at the range. Without the actual assignable cause for his failure it is hard to understand what went wrong. M1A's dont just blow up, they are very robust. It could have been something like a powder mixup. I dont care what caliber you shoot, you load up a rifle load with H110 and it will explode. I do agree with your concern, reloading is not something to make mistakes with. Check, recheck, and then recheck your loading methods. Also, get a journal and make notes on each load. Im not that old but it sure is nice looking at my notes for setting up dies, or loads that I put together a couple of years ago.


<span style="color: #CC0000">4)I was getting a variation of a couple of thousandths with the bullet seating die, as well. With this, do you err on the short, or the long, side of COAL? I may have been wrong, but I figured with powder- better less, than more...and figured I'd be better off if the overall length were a couple thousandths short, rather than long. Is this correct? How close, is close enough- what are the tolerances? This question is geared more for an answer from a safety perspective first, with accuracy second.</span>

Good questions, It is better to be the same on all loads, might be some slop in your press. I use a sinclair NUT

I measure on the Ogive to the base of the case. Bullet lengths vary but the Ogive (area that meets the lands of the barrel) is the critical area for OAL. Some kind og OAL tool that will measure from this region will help you.

Off the lands is probably better, most guns will not chamber into a magazine if loaded to the outer OAL region. I would stay with what the book says and you will get into Lands & grooves later. It is something that is (probably) not recomended if you are starting out. Find an old salty dog reloader and get some help. It is fun to chew the fat concerning reloading various calibers.. Look thru the Pinned threads on the reloading page to see some of the tips. These are good. If you ever have a question when your reloading, STOP. You need to verify.. Good questions.

sorry about the long winder response.

prosise

 

[boltcatch]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3) If it was indeed case separation as he suspects, it scares the hell out of me to be re-using brass. Can someone please detail (and, pics would be GREAT) of the danger signs to be looking for?</div></div>

One method to check for incipient casehead separation is to bend a short 90 deg. angle into the end of a paperclip and run it along the inside of your cases. It will catch on the ring inside the case where the brass is thinning out - most calibers seem to do it down near the case head, but all the .223/5.56 ones I've found have been about 1/3 up the length of the case from the case head. It'll probably be pretty obvious, and easy to see if you shine a light down in there.

Do note that resizing often makes marks on the outside that look sorta like a weakened case... this is why I paperclip all my brass after sizing. It's an easy step to add while you're doing things with the primer pockets or deburring.

This isn't the only way to check for this, but it helps. I've found maybe 5 out of 3000 in my .223, after firing most of them several times. I've seen several bad factory .223 rounds separate in friend's rifles, though, and it didn't do anything but cause a stoppage.

Take good notes, take your time, inspect your completed rounds, and you'll be fine.

 

[vman]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

Wannashootit, take WildBills advice, he is a professional in this industry and knows exactly what he is talking about.

I would like to also add to the comments about setting up your dies... Do it properly, buy the appropriate guages if needed and your hobby will be much safer.

To be totally honest, the dangers involved with both shooting and reloading are identical in my opinion.

Ok you might have a hot load but you may also forget to clean your rifle properly and leave a patch in the barrel or a jig may work loose. Next round down the chamber ends with an explosion.

Theres so much that can go wrong just with everything else in life like driving a car.

Respect the dangers, pay attention at every step and your in a much safer position. Prevention is key and in this hobby knowledge is also a method of prevention.

 

[BillCh]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

I'm not sure I'd get to wild and crazy about what happened, not that it's not some serious stuff. It sounds like you have your head screwed on straight to me.

First off (in my humble opinion), the M14/M1A abuses brass with reckless abandon. It is the nature of the beast to yank the case by the head, with all available force, and fling it into oblivion with no regard for salvation. That weapon is all about output.

The first time out to the range with mine, I'd loaded up 20 rounds of 168MK's in some of my rat-holed brand new Lapua brass. I'll just say, never again, to that.

Pay attention to what your doing, like your are, and you'll be fine.

B

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

"1) I saw what he meant by "flat" primer, but don't understand what the cause could be, if it's not a hot load."

By themselves, primers are poor "pressure gages".

"Flat" primers are much more often a sign of excessive resized shoulder set back than high chamber pressures. Fire a sized/primed case and take a look at the primer. You will likely find it's backed well out of the pocket; that can ONLY happen if the case is a loose fit in the chamber and that's due to excessive resizing.

Get a Sinclair or Hornady case gage to put on your caliper. Then you can measure your cases to find the actual fired head-to-shoulder lenght and adjust your FL die to resize to match that. Your "flat" primers are quite likely to disappear with no other change.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

I had just realized that I had failed to compare the casings from my son's gun (the 700 bolt) to my Mini's...

We had kept all casings separated and put them back into the same ziplocs (one for each load) they came out of.

The difference was obvious and plain to see even for a novice. His primers were still somewhat convex, mine are completely flat. We were both shooting basically the same loads and bullets, and Varget. There were minor load differences since our starting loads were slightly different due to one being bolt and one being autoloading, but they were very similar and neither approached within a full grain of max. load per the Sierra manual. We had 53 gr. hp, 63 gr. smp, and 69 gr. hp. I also had made up some 77 gr. hp's for my fast-twist mini, but didn't get a chance to try them. The 63 gr. smp's were a great bullet for the 700- he had a six-shot group at under MOA. Far better than any factory loads we've tried!!

Given the well-known violence of the Mini-14 action, is it reasonable to suspect the flat primers are a result of this? I'm going to try a smaller gas block bushing and see if it helps...it would also be nice not to have to the brass thrown into the next county...

Thanks, I just ordered the Hornady Headspace Gauge Kit...

 

[Iamironman]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So, in speaking with the RSO at the end of the day I showed him some of my brass from the Mini, just to get his opinion. He said the primers (CCI) looked a bit flat- nothing serious, but he asked if I was shooting hot loads. I told him no- that I followed Sierra's advice, and started at 8% under max for the bullet/gun (semi or bolt per the manual)and then two more loads each increasing by 1/2 grain. Wasn't loading anywhere close to max.
.</div></div>

Another thing you need to consider too is that with certain powders in certain calibers, TOO LOW of a powder charge can also cause dangerously high pressures.

 

[clay_breaker]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

I never checked for signs of case stretching until this happened to me.

It was also fired in an M1A, old one I used to own, but a tackdriver. It was regular load of Varget under an smk, nothing hot. The brass was only twice fired, Winchester, that had been full prepped after the first firing.

All ended well, I was unhurt and the gun was unhurt. Head was ejected and the rest came out easily when I pulled the bolt back with the next round stuck in it. Velocity on chrono was consistent with previous and following shots.

But it SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF ME, and have been on the bent paper clip method ever since. I have had many cases since then over time that have that valley in them and get scrapped. It takes extra time and I don't like it, but I can't not do it now. It was a wake up call to say the least.

 

[vman]

Re: Accident at the Range today,+ some basic Q's

I hope to never experience that