Advanced Marksmanship Accuracy previously achieved

tigerhawk

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Since there is already a Most Ridiculous Accuracy Claim thread on this site, I thought I would propose a more interesting discussion: What is the tightest group (c-to-c) any of you have ever actually shot at any distance (please specify caliber, distance, and number of shots [at least 5, site management says that 3 shot groups are not ok and they will delete them, no matter how fantastically small they are]), that was reliably witnessed, and for which you can provide the target that has the group? If you can, please post the target too!

Edit: The powers that be on this site deleted a very nice posted .125" group (with target) at 100 yards with a Savage 7mm Remington Magnum from this thread, because it was only a 3 shot group. I don't know that there are many shooters anywhere who can shoot a group like that with a rifle in that caliber, so I would think it is something to be proud of.
 

One-Eyed Jack

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Re: Accuracy previously achieved

My best group ever was 5 shots of 243Win ([email protected]) with my then-new GAP rifle. The 5-shot group could be covered completely by a dime. Oh yeah, the target was at 300 yards. Here are pix of the part of the target I saved:

Optics039.jpg


Optics040.jpg
 

tigerhawk

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Re: Accuracy previously achieved

Jack, I look forward to seeing a picture of that group when you have it available.

And, I like your sig.
 

Bigwheels

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    10 rnds @ 100 yds
    300WM
    220 SMK @ 2700 fps.
    jeffgay2.jpg

    Also a 3 rnd group @ 2000 yds. With a witness.
    P1010006.jpg

    Same rifle. But with 208 A-Max @ 2950. Steel is 20" tall X 14" wide.
     

    GCMxVeGeTa

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trigger time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chad likes to shoot really good groups right off the target!! LOL </div></div>

    Hey, if you can't be good, be consistent.
    smile.gif
     

    Downzero

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    Shooting groups is a waste of time. That is why that garbage gets deleted here on a regular basis. I make a point to report any post that includes a 3 round group for just that reason.

    There are other sights where benchrest and "gun in a vice" shooting are common. I'm sure you'll find your 3 shot groups welcome there. Here we are concerned with 1 shot groups, and answering the question as to whether you can deliver that one shot into an acceptable range at all distances.
     

    tigerhawk

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    Downzero, I understand the one shot requirement very well. I disagree with you that groups are a waste of time, because they do test the capabilities of shooter/rifle/ammo/optics, and that is something it is necessary to know. The site rules do allow five and ten shot groups, so evidently not everyone here thinks groups are a waste of time.

    I have addressed your concerns by starting a new thread, One Shot Accuracy, where people who think the way you do should be quite happy. Please let me know if you have any concerns about that thread.

    I did not actually intend to include groups shot off a benchrest or a vise in my original thread, but I did not think to exclude them. Thank you for pointing that out. I think, though, that as long as people state the specifics about their setup, you can weed out the benchresters easily enough.

    Your position also is a bit hard on new shooters, who we all need to encourage in every way that we can. We need all the help we can get in order to keep our rights, and we cannot really afford to repel new shooters by being arrogant about what we do, no matter how good at it we may be.

     

    Donut

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    Out of my new Stag 6H-upper'd AR, off a bipod and rear bag, with a Bushnell 3200 10x

    ARtarget1a.jpg


    Pretending the flyer isn't there:

    ARtarget1.jpg


    Another group from that load:

    ARtarget2.jpg
     

    McLarenross

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    I am still kinda green so all I have is 100 yard groups. Here are two from my Remington 700 VLS 308. Stock barrel cut to 20" and muzzle brake installed, JARD 12oz trigger, Leapers SWAT 4-16 scope. All groups shot off of bipod with my hand as a rear rest. Load is 46.3gr RL-15 with a 155 A-Max at 2.815". I also have a really good group I shot with my 10/22 at 50 yards but it is only a 3 shot group.

    P1020369.jpg

    P1020368.jpg
     

    tigerhawk

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    Hey, McLarenRoss, go ahead and post the .22 group if you want. if people don't understand, tough on them.
    smile.gif
     

    McLarenross

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    OK. Here it is. Again, shot prone off of bipod. Ill be the first to admit this was a fluke group. The barrel shot well, most always under half an inch at 50, but this was a fluke. Either way here is it. Ruger 10/22, with a custom 1:9 twist barrel for the Aguila SSS ammo. Trued bolt, 10oz trigger, bedded and free floated, most anything else you can do to a 10/22. Yes it was shot with a NcStar scope. I didnt know anything abotu quality optics back then, and still have yet to purchase my first truly quality optic. It was a shit scope and I threw it in the trash eventually.

    04060002-1.jpg
     

    tigerhawk

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    Very nice group, even if it is a one-time thing. Who made the barrel?

    btw, there are some people here who have nothing better to do than take it upon themselves to report 3 shot groups and get them deleted. If that happens, I just wanted you to know what happened. If you haven't already, you might want to read my post at the top of this thread.
     

    McLarenross

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    I read it. Thats why I didnt post at at first. The company that contoured the barrel was Centurion Ordnance but thats about all I know about it. There were zero markings on the barrel, not even 22LR. I sold it a while later as I took the gun a different direction.
     

    tigerhawk

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    I have a barrel with a 1:9 twist designed for the SSS rounds too, but I have not mounted it on a 10/22 yet. I forgot who made it. I'll look at it the next chance I get.
     

    McLarenross

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    The barrel was great but the SSS rounds were not consistent enough I found to be worth the trouble. Mine did like regular 40gr stuff to though so I used Eley and Lapua for an ARA competition with it one time. My lowley 10/22 didnt compete with those Stole Pandas and 52Ds though. Lol. I reconfigured the gun into a Silhouette/offhand gun shortly after that.
     

    tigerhawk

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    Lol. In that case, maybe I won't bother to mount it. I think I will just get an Anschutz.
     

    tigerhawk

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    I was joking. Of course I'll try it, since I have it, but I don't think it will come anywhere near an Anschutz's capabilities.
     

    One_Ma

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved


    2. 5 shots including cold bore, 100y, .308 win, bipod & sand bags, measures <.5"
    small1j.jpg


    3. 5 shots, 100y, .308 win 125gr Bergers, bipod & sand bags, measures .462" ctc, 1 month ago
    dime1c.jpg


    4. 10 shots, 100y, .308 win, windy.
    cimg3496.jpg
     

    ChadTRG42

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting groups is a waste of time. </div></div>

    So how do you figure out which load shoots the best and is the most consistant?
     

    lowlight

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting groups is a waste of time. </div></div>

    So how do you figure out which load shoots the best and is the most consistant? </div></div>

    Join Benchrest Central... or accuratereloading.com
    smile.gif


    Remember 3 rounds groups are no allowed on SH for the rest.
     

    DaveV

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tigerhawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I find the attitude that bans 3 shots groups to be repressive at best, and disgusting, at worst, since I do not agree at all that such an attitude promotes better marksmanship. I think such an attitude instead promotes discouragement among new shooters. Let people shoot groups of whatever number of rounds they want, as long as they state the number of rounds in the group. <span style="font-weight: bold">We don't need more rules, we need more freedom.</span> </div></div>


    Frank's house. Frank's rules.

    1zp7jap.jpg
     

    tigerhawk

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    Freedom to disagree with Frank about his rules, guaranteed by the US Constitution,

    Also, if Frank's rules are discouraging new shooters, something needs to be said.
     

    Dagsta

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    Dude keep up the vocal disagreeing with Franks rules and you'll be guaranteed by the Constitution to express your views on another sympathetic site!!!!

    Your opinion of what encourages and discourages new shooters is moot and nobody really gives a crap. It is his rule!! And if you don't like it go post your 3 shot groups on another site. If you want to stay here shut up and shoot 5 shot groups.
     

    tigerhawk

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    Dude, "my" groups, as you put it, are always 5 shots, or 10, or 20. If you will notice, mine are not posted here, so telling me where to post my groups is moot.

    If nobody gives a crap, then why are you giving me crap over it? Or did I perhaps hit on something that you know we all need to care about (encouraging new shooters), and you don't want to admit it?

    Also, there are people on this site doing worse far worse things than that, and they are still here.
     

    DaveV

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    Registered: Wed Jan 27 2010
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    Oh, I get it now. It's from your vast experience on the Hide that you speak
    grin.gif
    Frank better listen up 'cause there's a new sheriff in town
    laugh.gif
     

    tigerhawk

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    Actually, it is from my vast experience teaching new shooters to shoot tiny little groups of 5 shots at 300 yards or further.
    smile.gif
    A lot of them seem to get discouraged if they have to start with 5 shot groups, so I start them with 3 shot groups.

    Anyway, I changed the paragraph. I had hoped to encourage a change that would encourage new shooters. My object was not to generate conflict, which is apparently what it was doing.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    New shooters who are discouraged having to shoot 5 rounds instead of 3 rounds, giving them what amounts to "more trigger time"...

    Wow, I never heard of this, must be a helluva instructor, or maybe they are being unrealistic in their expectations.

    If you want to encourage new shooters, I recommend you start a site of your own, newshooterswhoshootless.com might be appropriate to your cause. Let me know if you need help setting up the domain.

    Sorry if you disagree, but I feel this site should be holding people to a higher standard, and 3 shot groups are not the standard I want to hold people too. In fact, by your very statement they are meaningless. I mean if a new shooter is getting a warm and fuzzy with a 3 shot group and is actually discouraged by a 5 shot group, I think my line of thinking is correct.

    3 shot groups are waste of time, and really have no business being posted on this site... they don't demonstrate anything, and I say based on my years of experience. Heck I do that when I am in a hurry and I am sighting a scope, but really if I was honest and serious about my training, or practice I would welcome in the input a 5 shot group gives me, and use it anytime I can, especially when I am doing mundane things like zeroing a scope.

    Lack of attention to demonstrate things correctly is a problem and one I try to avoid when possible, especially when I am instructing.

    So, take it for what is worth but it is my rule and one I might start enforcing with more vigor
     

    tigerhawk

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    Lowlight, I have not personally violated your rule, and I have no intention of doing so. I have never posted a group of 3 rounds on your site. I was only trying to tell those who wanted to that there was nothing wrong with being proud of an excellent group, even one with only 3 rounds. I did state in my opening paragraph that the site rules say 5 rounds or more, and that 3 round groups will be deleted, so if you enforce the rule more vigorously, that will not have any effect on me.

    It is not true that 3 round groups are meaningless by my statement. They simply do not mean as much as 5 round groups, which do not mean as much as 10 round groups. As far as what I am doing with new shooters, they get plenty of trigger time when I teach them (125-150 rounds/day). What is wrong with a shooter being proud of an excellent 3 round group, while he works on trying to shoot an excellent 5 round group? At the end of the day, they will have one excellent 3 round group (and a bunch of crappy ones...lol), and a bunch of 5 round groups (mostly excellent). They seem to do better shooting an excellent 3 round group before they start trying to shoot 5 round groups. Do you think it would work better if they were not allowed to keep track of any 3 round groups?

    Personally, I usually shoot 10 round groups, because I think, statistically, they tell us substantially more.

    It may interest you to know that Tactical Operations (in Beverly Hills, CA) guarantees their Tango 51 rifles to shoot a 1/4" group at 100 yards with Federal GM308M. They test the rifles for this accuracy by shooting them before they ship them out, and they shoot 3 round groups to do so. So I am not sure that it is totally true that 3 round groups don't tell us anything. They simply tell us less than 5 round groups do.

    If you want to hold this site to a higher standard, then why don't you have a rule about the maximum number of MOA a group can be if it is to be posted?

    Also, (and you do not fall into this category) members telling me that the rules state 3 round groups are not allowed have no business, in my opinion, being rude while doing it.

    In any case, I have amended the opening paragraph. Please let me know if you think I should change it even more.
     

    One_Ma

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    I will be the first to admit, If I would have taken another shot on my 3 shot group posted above, I am 99.99% sure that I would have blown that group.

    However, I don't feel bad for posting it (I did not know that there was a rule about this) because it is something that I am proud of.

    That said, I am going to agree with LL here because he knows what he is talking about. Watch a few of his videos on youtube and you will see that this guy is pretty serious about his shooting skills, and I believe he is very knowledgeable in every aspect of marksmanship.

    In all honesty a 3 shot group is not very indicative of a rifles overall accuracy/shooters capabilities. 5 shots groups are a whole other story. It is much more demanding to shoot a tight 5 shot group, and I believe that doing so will improve your skills (if you are serious about it)
     

    tigerhawk

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    Just to make this clear, I am not questioning LL's qualifications or his experience, nor have I, nor do I intend to, violate his rule.

    I am not particularly in need of instruction in how to hit small targets at great distances. I know that it is more demanding to shoot 5 shots than 3. I normally shoot 10 shot groups, and, although I have no interest in entering any competitions, I suspect that if I did, there would be some very shocked shooters.
     

    lowlight

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    Please, give e a break.

    Just because someone uses a 3 shot group to sell something doesn't mean it has any more credibility than anything else. I can argue it all day and there is no getting around the fact, it demonstrates very little especially when we are talking about a "shooter' over a system. One can argue that 3 shots gives you an idea of what the rifles is doing, but 5 shots tells you more about the shooter, but statically, its insignificant.

    Members of this site help police it, we have what 5 moderators including me, a place like AR15.com has 230 moderators, so our members are doing a helluva job policing this site. If rude gets the job done with someone who is ignoring them, I might be inclined to overlook it as it keeps this place what it is.

    Hate too tell you, but you're out of your league arguing this stuff, you have been here less than a month and propose to tell me what I am doing wrong, as if... Thanks but I think I know what is best for this site.
     

    JCH

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    This is almost as ridiculous as the "well known" part manufacturer arguing with you on whether you owned the optics forum....sheesh.
     

    clmayfield

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    This is a great example of 3-shot versus 5-shot and best group accuracy versus expected accuracy. This is my 22LR at 110 yards. That is a .440 MOA at the top left.

    022210SmallGroup.jpg


    The high shot was my 4th shot. Had I stopped at 3 shots, it would have been about 1/4 MOA. Do I call my 22LR a 1/4 minute rifle at 100 yards? No. Is it a half minute rifle because it has shot that before? No. Look at those other groups. I was ammo testing and got lucky (you can see the lot info on the target). I didn't even choose that batch of ammo because after shooting 50 shots, its average grouping wasn't that great.

    I consider this rifle to be about .85 MOA at 110 yards. That is the average it gets with good ammo. I have shot 5X5's smaller than that, but not by much.

    I got in an argument with someone with a Rock River AR. He was telling me that his gun was quarter minute @ 100. I told him no way. He said, "I have the group to prove it." That was the dead giveaway that his rifle is not reliably quarter minute. It was a 3-shot group that he had shot and cut off of a target. He wasn't lying... we were just talking in different terms.

    I don't see the benefit to new or old shooters to lying to themselves about the accuracy of themselves or their weapons.
     

    Armorman

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    Personally I like 15-20 shot groups. If the conditions are very good and consistent while I shoot the group...15 or 20 shots tells me a few things. First off it shows me how my barrel reacts to heat and how it may effect the point of impact. Secondly it shows me how consistent my load is. Just like most others here, I can shoot amazing 5 shot groups.....try doing it 3 more times though and you have a completely different story.

    Chris.
     

    clmayfield

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    Re: Accuracy previously achieved

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveV</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A great read for those interested

    Shot groups </div></div>

    Dave, thanks for posting that. It is pretty brilliant, actually. I have always liked the XY-coordinate method, but it is tedious. The pairwise comparison is very easy to perform and I can use On-Target to calculate it. Even more importantly, there will be very little shift in conditions between shot #1 and shot #2. With 5 and 10 shot groups, sometimes you finish the group before the wind shifts and sometimes you don't.

    Cool. I like it.
     

    DaveV

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    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even more importantly, there will be very little shift in conditions between shot #1 and shot #2.</div></div>

    That's the part that caught my attention as well. I like the OCW method because it spreads the conditions over the whole string. This method spreads groups over the strings. Kinda unique. I will continue to shoot 5 shot tests, because I'm not patient enough to do this method. But, I think it has value...even if the results can't be published here
    laugh.gif