Adjusting elevation vs holdover/under for NRL22

[Jackpine Cowboy]

I posted several questions related to scopes I am looking at, on a previous post, and sort of included this, but think I asked too many questions in one post, so am asking this here.

I am just getting started on NRL22, having only shot one practice day, as this months match at local club got cancelled.

It appears that most folks adjust for the different distances, instead of hold over or under. I understand that this is a more precise method, but given the time constraints and the fine graduations of the Christmas tree reticles, I do not understand why hold over is not used more, especially with the Base class scopes, where the repeatability and where seem to be more of an issue. I was reading another post, which was actually talking about a different issue, but it was mentioned that a shooter had lost a match because he incorrectly adjusted his scope and lost the match or high placement because of this. Seems like things like this are less likely with holdover.

If this is a horse that has been well beaten, I apologize for not finding the previous threads.

Thanks for help and patience.

 

[weeds]

It all depends on the stage, you, and your equipment. When I started I rarely dialed. It was just odd to me. As I got more experience and was able to transition between positions faster I began to dial more often.
Another factor is how well you can see the stadia lines. Sometimes I back off the power enough that those lines get awfully small and I can’t tell the difference between the 0.5 and 1 mil tick.
For me personally, I never hold under. It’s something that still just doesn’t make sense in my head and chances are I’ll forget that I need to do it

 

[PPS LRPS.260]

And lets not forget , weather its a ffp (first focal plane) or 2nd focal plane. Then it really matters what magnification your holding on for true calibrated holds....
I dial everything,unless its a holdover stage only , i can do both pretty efficient, and rarely do i time out. But it has happened before. I also have memorized certain distances for the correct hold that helps to.

 

[Tsovern]

I only dial if it's one adjustment and done. I hold everything else.

 

[Boxerglocker]

Depends on the stage design and the size and distance targets. If you have 3 targets at distances where hold over/under X.3 Mils and you have 0.5 graduations of 0.5 on your reticle it can be a much tougher than just dialing holding center.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I posted several questions related to scopes I am looking at, on a previous post, and sort of included this, but think I asked too many questions in one post, so am asking this here.

I am just getting started on NRL22, having only shot one practice day, as this months match at local club got cancelled.

It appears that most folks adjust for the different distances, instead of hold over or under. I understand that this is a more precise method, but given the time constraints and the fine graduations of the Christmas tree reticles, I do not understand why hold over is not used more, especially with the Base class scopes, where the repeatability and where seem to be more of an issue. I was reading another post, which was actually talking about a different issue, but it was mentioned that a shooter had lost a match because he incorrectly adjusted his scope and lost the match or high placement because of this. Seems like things like this are less likely with holdover.

If this is a horse that has been well beaten, I apologize for not finding the previous threads.

Thanks for help and patience.

Most people are more comfortable using the main windage of their reticle. Also in many reticles, the tree isn’t as precisely divided as the main windage horizontal.

I’ve seen similar mistakes of people holding the wrong elevation just like dialing the wrong dope. That’s a training issue and not a dial or no dial issue.

As far as the time, once you get to a certain skill level, time isn’t a factor that limits you from dialing except in rare situations/stages. If you find yourself timing out due to dialing more than rarely, then you’re either slow and/or inefficient and it’s a training issue.

 

[PPS LRPS.260]

I am fortunate enough to live on acreage,and i will set up 10 targets at 10 various distances and practice practice practice 1 shot dial 1 shot dial for 10 targets vary in size from .250 to 1.5 out to 100 then bigger targets for further distances out to 300-400 yrds. Then i do holdovers only same c.o.f. till i have it down pat.

 

[Jackpine Cowboy]

Thanks all. I can see how it makes sense for me to start out using my previous experience, but can see why that may change. I understand a little better now.

Weeds did raise another question in my tiny brain. He said: "Another factor is how well you can see the stadia lines. Sometimes I back off the power enough that those lines get awfully small and I can’t tell the difference between the 0.5 and 1 mil tick." I was think of getting a 6-24 (either Diamondback or Argos) with the likelihood that I would probably use it most often somewhere in the 16x range. Can anyone till me if, assuming the same model of scope, if the stadia lines will be the same when they are both set at 16x or will they be more defined on the 4-16x?

Thanks again.

 

[weeds]

I can't speak on those two compared to each other, but I don't think you'll have an issue either way. My comment really comes into play in the low end of the range, say below 8x. It's rare that I have my power down that low but I've shot some stages that the wider field of view helped me more than higher magnification would. I generally have mine set at 10-15x.

 

[nockhunter]

I dial for elevation, hold for wind.

Mike

 

[DownhillFromHere]

It was me who posted about a buddy forgetting to return his scope to zero after a long-range rimfire stage and already had a full turn on the turret so dialed 12 mils instead of 2.

It wasn't a lack of training; this guy has placed high in every match in which I've been with him.

It was a mistake.

I've been competing in one shooting discipline or another for decades. You'll learn the mechanics fast enough. The mental game is what separates the perennial champions from everybody else. You'll learn for yourself all the ways you can screw up a one-car parade. All the training in the world isn't going to eliminate brain farts.

You'll have to learn for yourself what works and what doesn't wrt dialing vs holdover. All the preceding posts make good points.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It was me who posted about a buddy forgetting to return his scope to zero after a long-range rimfire stage and already had a full turn on the turret so dialed 12 mils instead of 2.

It wasn't a lack of training; this guy has placed high in every match in which I've been with him.

It was a mistake.

I've been competing in one shooting discipline or another for decades. You'll learn the mechanics fast enough. The mental game is what separates the perennial champions from everybody else. You'll learn for yourself all the ways you can screw up a one-car parade. All the training in the world isn't going to eliminate brain farts.

You'll have to learn for yourself what works and what doesn't wrt dialing vs holdover. All the preceding posts make good points.

Mistakes happen from lack of training. The question is, how much training and dedication are you willing to make.

For example, if returning to zero was tied into safety (making this up obviously, so play along) like clearing the chamber, you’d likely never forget to do it.

Placing high in matches doesn’t mean you don’t train or lack training. He likely doesn’t actively train to reset his turrets. Most people don’t include small things like that.

Training + focus is exactly what prevents brain farts. Making excuses to ourselves that it “happens” is exactly why it can and will happen again.

 

[MakeSawdust]

Mistakes happen from lack of training. The question is, how much training and dedication are you willing to make.

For example, if returning to zero was tied into safety (making this up obviously, so play along) like clearing the chamber, you’d likely never forget to do it.

Placing high in matches doesn’t mean you don’t train or lack training. He likely doesn’t actively train to reset his turrets. Most people don’t include small things like that.

Training + focus is exactly what prevents brain farts. Making excuses to ourselves that it “happens” is exactly why it can and will happen again.

I agree with this 100%. There is also the other side. No amount of training will make you infallible. We are talking about one mistake.

I will agree 100% that this is a mental game. I am an average to barely above average trigger puller, but have somehow managed to minimize mental mistakes and do well. Another local guy is an exceptional trigger puller. He can lay down and print 9/10 groups or better at <.25 moa (I used to think he was lying until I witnessed it several times). Most of his groups at 100 yards are bugholes. He also shoots very well positional. He is a mental basket case. When his mental game is on he has finished very well at national level matches. (Top 10 or better in a few, no wins). When he makes no mental mistakes he destroys me. However, I beat him about half the time because his mental game is poor and he doesn't consistently shoot as well as he is physically capable of shooting.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Mistakes happen from lack of training. The question is, how much training and dedication are you willing to make.

For example, if returning to zero was tied into safety (making this up obviously, so play along) like clearing the chamber, you’d likely never forget to do it.

Placing high in matches doesn’t mean you don’t train or lack training. He likely doesn’t actively train to reset his turrets. Most people don’t include small things like that.

Training + focus is exactly what prevents brain farts. Making excuses to ourselves that it “happens” is exactly why it can and will happen again.

We can agree to disagree. If "training" makes a champion, then everybody could be a champion with unlimited time and budget. It doesn't work that way, and you know it.

In the decades I did skeet - which is 99% mental and 1% mechanics at the AAA level - I shot with and refereed for some of the legends of the sport in that era ('80s, '90s). Guys who went entire seasons without missing a target in regular competition in the larger guns (1200 minimum 12 gauge, 1000 minimum in the others for state and national awards eligibility). Guys who could break both targets of station 4 doubles before either crossed the center stake. I've seen major shoots lost when such shooters lost low 7 singles and low 8 options - the equivalent of an 8-inch putt in golf, put the bead on the target and pull the trigger. Jeez, I was pulling for one of them when he squirted a low 7 single and finished the weekend with a 399/400 - missed a low 7 single. With 28 gauge. He could probably hit that target with a .22 rifle. He lost several big shoots because he brain-farted low 7.

You go out and tell those guys you can train away brain farts and they would literally laugh in your face.

 

[Dthomas3523]

We can agree to disagree. If "training" makes a champion, then everybody could be a champion with unlimited time and budget. It doesn't work that way, and you know it.

In the decades I did skeet - which is 99% mental and 1% mechanics at the AAA level - I shot with and refereed for some of the legends of the sport in that era ('80s, '90s). Guys who went entire seasons without missing a target in regular competition in the larger guns (1200 minimum 12 gauge, 1000 minimum in the others for state and national awards eligibility). Guys who could break both targets of station 4 doubles before either crossed the center stake. I've seen major shoots lost when such shooters lost low 7 singles and low 8 options - the equivalent of an 8-inch putt in golf, put the bead on the target and pull the trigger. Jeez, I was pulling for one of them when he squirted a low 7 single and finished the weekend with a 399/400 - missed a low 7 single. With 28 gauge. He could probably hit that target with a .22 rifle. He lost several big shoots because he brain-farted low 7.

You go out and tell those guys you can train away brain farts and they would literally laugh in your face.

There’s a reason tier 1 guys on Mil and civilian LE don’t make safety and other such issue often if ever.

And when they do make a “mistake” or “brain fart”, guess what happens? They up their training time or they change it.

Again, it’s back to the amount of time and dedication you have. I promise your example champion didn’t just say “nothing I can do, shit happens.” I bet he doubled down on this particular mistakes when he got back to training.

Your example is literally proving my point.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’m using top mil/le as an example as it’s one of the few examples of people who get almost unlimited time and resources to train.

It’s rare that anyone not doing something like that for a living can dedicate that type of time.

And obviously if you can’t dedicate that time, you may not reach that level. But that doesn’t preclude something being a training issue, just because you don’t have the time to fix it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just because bored, I’ll continue with examples.Let’s take the failure to zero a turret and being an entire rev off. That’s a pretty big “brain fart.”

It can literally:

1: send a round out of the range
2: lose 3-10+ points. You can very easily zero a stage

If you make that mistake, cause let’s call “brain farts” what they are......a feel good word for a mental error.......and you don’t go back to the practice range and start making sure you incorporate returning to zero into your training regiment, you’re just not doing yourself any favors.

Excusing yourself like it’s just some “oh well” situation when it can literally be a huge safety issue or a 10+ point mistake.......just isn’t smart.

 

[Gleedus]

I'll have to agree with Thomas here. Brain farts happen but they are a result of some failure on our part. If you on the hyway and the cars in front of you stop. You will automatically hit the brakes no thinking required. If you do not hit the brakes its because you were not looking or mentally you were off in lala land. You can also brain fart as a result of mental strain. But all of those thing technically were avoidable.
But unfortunately we are all prone to failure the key is to take ownership of the mental error and work on it.
I have my share of failures to dont think I dont. Lucky for me others do to so some sometimes I can do well.

 

[Js9088]

I always dial if there is time.

 

[mark5pt56]

There’s a reason tier 1 guys on Mil and civilian LE don’t make safety and other such issue often if ever.

And when they do make a “mistake” or “brain fart”, guess what happens? They up their training time or they change it.

Again, it’s back to the amount of time and dedication you have. I promise your example champion didn’t just say “nothing I can do, shit happens.” I bet he doubled down on this particular mistakes when he got back to training.

Your example is literally proving my point.

I have to agree on this one, you identify weaknesses and develop a plan to correct them. Your goal is to have a flawless execution of the fundamentals/manipulations and application of tactics/match strategy.

Old school, but remember J. Michael Plaxco? three stages of learning-stage two (Shooting from within)

Plus, my Avatar--get in your bubble!

 

[Newbie2020]

A guy I know was training in the shoot house. Guy in the group before his didn’t go back to “safe” after engaging a target. Instructor tackled him from behind after he swept his teammateHe got rolled from the course.

Call it a “brain fart”, but That’s a training / practice problem. And it cost him more than a few points on a stage. And it could have cost him and someone else a lot more than it did.

Habits (good and bad) come from training.

I’m guessing there’s more guys in here w examples (good and bad) of safety issues related to developing habits (good and bad) through hours of repetition and training.

 

[Defender32]

Dial or Hold it is all in what you practice. I got into this NRL22 Game after being away from shooting for 3 years. Only time I picked up a rifle was to kill a deer. In October I shot my first match. It was eye opening. I was only paper punching before hand and shooting range steel. I had no idea what the COF was nor how to understand it to the fullest. I shot 3rd out of 9. My 3rd was 13 plates off of second!!!!! It was an eye opener.

Since then I have shot a total of 7 Matches & one or 2 of the same shooters. I have learned a lot. There are stages where I dial for everything & stages that I hold for all. I use a cheat sheet on the side of my scope and on my arm depending on how I'm feeling that day. Wither I Dial or hold it is all displayed for me and I don't have to think about it. The ones I remember are 50-0, 75-1mil & 100-2mil.

The Dial back to zero has almost gotten me a time or 2. I have since remembered and dial back to zero after I stand and insert Chamber Block. It is now in my routine. Practice it until it hurts you brain and practice it some more. You don't have to send rounds down range to practice. DFAT ( Dryfire Focus Adapter Training ) can help with that and the monthly COF. I just ordered one after plenty of research over the rainy week and weekend we have had. index.html

 

[Eoddave27]

The stage dictates if I hold over or dial. A lot of the match directors here design stages such that if you don’t hold over you will time out. A 90 second stage with 12 dope changes is almost Impossible if you are dialing. If you throw in movement as well it’s even more of a challenge. If I have time to dial or if the targets are really small I will dial. If there are a lot of dope changes or if it’s a timed tie breaker stage I hold over. I practice both and am comfortable doing both. It’s all about practice. I have taught my boys both ways since they started shooting and they are just as comfortable doing one as they are the other and they are 10 and 12. I do think having the right reticle is really important when you holdover however. If the numbers are not on the centerline of your reticle it can be really easy to get lost when you are holding 8-9 mils. This is the big reason I like the older Vortex EBR-2c reticle and the EBR-7B reticle. All the numbers run down the centerline of the reticle instead of the outside of the Christmas tree.

 

[chevy_man]

I only dial if it's one adjustment and done. I hold everything else.

This.

I'll dial if it's one set distance per stage. I'll hold the entire stage, or sometimes if we start at 100+ and go out I'll dial for the first one, hold the rest. Always helps to have a dope card and write it down per stage.

I've screwed myself by dialing the wrong number. I've screwed myself holding the wrong number. It happens both ways.

Depending on the movements I have been damn close to timing out dialing, so I quit and just started holding. This meant a scope change, but I really, really like the Dev-L for NRL. Just wish I could get it in a 10 yard parallax. I may try a 4-32 nightforce with the mil-xt, depending on what pricing I can get locally.


For what it's worth, we just started our own "league" locally between 3 clubs. 2 of them are all about the NRL but will throw in a different stage as a bonus, while we got bored with the same crap all the time and just design our own stages. So we tend to do 60-90 second stage times with varying degrees of difficulty, which may be why I kept ending up with 5-10 seconds left dialing, but 30+ seconds holding.

 

[Jackpine Cowboy]

Thanks for all the good input. I hope to put it to work soon. Just ordered a new scope this morning. I called Cameraland this morning, based on recommendation from this forum. Very interesting place, entertaining, great service and best prices anywhere. Call them, don't order on line, if you are interested in glass and tell them you got their name from the Hide.

 

[TurboTrout]

It was me who posted about a buddy forgetting to return his scope to zero after a long-range rimfire stage and already had a full turn on the turret so dialed 12 mils instead of 2.

It wasn't a lack of training; this guy has placed high in every match in which I've been with him.

It was a mistake.

I've been competing in one shooting discipline or another for decades. You'll learn the mechanics fast enough. The mental game is what separates the perennial champions from everybody else. You'll learn for yourself all the ways you can screw up a one-car parade. All the training in the world isn't going to eliminate brain farts.

You'll have to learn for yourself what works and what doesn't wrt dialing vs holdover. All the preceding posts make good points.

Zero stops?

 

[larry meyer]

Good subject: Valuable info. My added $.02 worth. I heard above, brain fart as a good? excuse. Band teacher told me, Practice does make perfect, only permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect. What ever you practice, is what you will do under pressure. NRL 22, enjoying the process of discovering what works for me, & taking note of what works for others. (PRACTICE). One of the things I have done is adjust elevation turret for the most difficult target to hit, in a stage, & hold for the others. For a comparison, I shoot a lot of rodents in farm fields, (squirrels & rock chucks) & because they rarely are still for long, I will adjust for the most common range & hold elevation & windage as necessary, for the others. Works well!

 

[Lone star Shooter]

For me it is a matter of stage time and the number a target engagements. I will normally dial if I estimate that time is not a factor. There have been some NRL22 stages have 5 targets that are engaged 2 separate times. On these stages you will most likely time out if you dial. NRL22 is designed to be shot on a 100 yard range with typically generously sized targets. You can hold over quite easily even if your scope has .5 MIL markings. FFP scopes simplify this even more. You must set your magnification correctly (usually highest power) with a SFP scope for the reticle to be accurate.

 

[JG26_Irish]

With NRL22, I determine when and where to dial or holdover based entirely on the stage, target placement and the number of tgt locations. Dialing your dope is almost always more precise than attempting to hold over/under. But many times, there will be tgts at three, four or more distances and that many adjustments on the fly will usually cost too much time. Many times, I will dial my dope to be dead on for the 2nd tgt and hold under for the first and over for the third and then dial once more for the fourth, etc. I spend the time to think through what makes the most sense and develop a plan that has the least wasted motion. My scope is a 6-24x FFP optic with MIL reticle. This enables simple adjustments or hold over at any power setting. Even so, I still sometimes struggle to decide how much magnification to use. When there are many tgts, it is sometimes tough to find the next one in the series if your scope is dialed up to full power or even half power. It is always a trade off between precision/accuracy and time. As a wise old marksman once said, a slow hit beats two fast misses every time. I am really about too old for NRL22. The physical aspect wears me out. But, it is fun and it does make me a better marksman & hunter.

 

[ocabj]

If the stage has you acquiring targets on different distances more than once (e.g., 25 to 100 to 25), then just use hold overs. That's why you have that fancy reticle. If you're adjusting anything, it'll be the parallax.

I like to hold over in NRL22 simply to practice and be comfortable doing it under time.