Advice needed on Ar15 for mid range shooting

[cb1000h]

Hi first off I'm new to this forum
So hello all
I have a stripped (Ar15) PSA upper and lower and was thinking of putting together a mid range shooter (500-1000)
So I know there are probably a million opinions to this question
Some of the questions

Does the 300 blk have better long range capabilities that the 556

can I use the upper lower combo I already have if I go the 300 route

Is there a better alternative to either the mentioned cartridges and still use the receivers I already have

I am assuming a free float 20" barrel would be the way to go
What kind of twist obviously repenting on the round used

Please forgive my ignorance
Thank you very much for your time
Wayne

 

[Bp44]

I'm sure your thread will drum up plenty of information from folks with a lot more experience than me but here it goes. Of the two calibers you listed neither lend themselves to 500-1000yd shooting, having said that I'm sure the 223 would be a lot of fun ath those ranges with a tight twist bbl and heavy bullets. I would have to recommend a 6.5 caliber or possibly the 6.8spc for the range your after.

 

[HairyDemon]

Not alot of room for powder in a .223 case for even the smallest .30 cal bullet a 300blk can support. I have a friend that shoots service rifle and he just recently found a load using CFE223 and 80gr bergers at 2800 FPS that he uses in his 600 yard sessions. In my opinion as humble as it is, I would go for .223 in fast twist 1/7 and single load a bullet with a solid BC and get that booger moving.

I dont think 300 is even in same ballpark, I have seen a video with Travis Haley shooting to like 700 meters with a Suppressed 300blk SBR, but he has alot of time on his hands to shoot and best ammo and was going for hits on steel not precision. I would compare 6.8 to .223 before I ever looked a 300 black.

 

[Guest]

I just purchased a 5.56 Recce rifle upper for medium range shooting. Plan to shoot heavier 69gr, 75gr and 77gr match grade ammo out of it. It shoots .5" @ 100yds with Horndady 75gr BTHP and head shots were easy at 600.

Here's the sepcs

SI Tier 1 Recce Upper
AeroPrecision made upper receiver
WOA 16" Recce 1:7 5.56 precision match barrel
Troy Alpha Handguard FDE
Young NiB bolt
BCM Charging Handle
TSD Kompressor

SI Tier 1 Recce Lower Kit
Aero Lower
DPMS Parts Kit
Magpul MOE Grip FDE
Magpul UBR FDE
JP Buffer Spring and Carbine Buffer
Timney 3# Match Trigger

I just ordered the BADASS ambi safety selector, ERGO Fde grip, and the Magpul enhanced trigger guard for this rifle.

 

[cb1000h]

Thank you all very much for the quick response
So after thinking and reading some more (uh duh should have done more of that before posting. )I think in terms of cost effectiveness staying with the 223/556 set up will be the way to go as I have the reloading/mags/62g ammo supplies
That being said will a longer 20" increase the velocity on the 556 62-68s over the 16" for better bullet trajectory in moderate cross wind out at those 600 and up ranges.
Was also thinking on the RRA wylde chambered barrels
As far as glass I'm thinking (budget in mind) going with the Vortex pst at around 700.00
Any thoughts on trigger would be great
And opinions on a free float pic rail budget in mind
Someone stop me if I'm talking out my ass please
Thanks again
Wayne

 

[corym468]

With the range and platform you're talking about I'd highly suggest looking at the 6.5 Grendel. If you want to run it through a ballistics program to compare I'd suggest inputting a 123gr Amax projectile at 2500fps-2550fps.

 

[corym468]

Thank you all very much for the quick response
So after thinking and reading some more (uh duh should have done more of that before posting. )I think in terms of cost effectiveness staying with the 223/556 set up will be the way to go as I have the reloading/mags/62g ammo supplies

That being said will a longer 20" increase the velocity on the 556 62-68s over the 16" for better bullet trajectory in moderate cross wind out at those 600 and up ranges.
Was also thinking on the RRA wylde chambered barrels
Someone stop me if it sounds like I'm talking out my ass please
Thanks again
Wayne

IMHO you're wasting your money and resources trying to send 62gr projectiles to a target beyond 600yards, unless you're just looking for a challenge. You really want to stay at 75gr+.

If you're set on this than the .223 wylde chamber is the way to go. You'll want a match grade barrel.

I believe Precision Firearms still have some Lothar Walter Wylde chambered barrels they're selling individually. Hit them up.

 

[HairyDemon]

Thank you all very much for the quick response
So after thinking and reading some more (uh duh should have done more of that before posting. )I think in terms of cost effectiveness staying with the 223/556 set up will be the way to go as I have the reloading/mags/62g ammo supplies
That being said will a longer 20" increase the velocity on the 556 62-68s over the 16" for better bullet trajectory in moderate cross wind out at those 600 and up ranges.
Was also thinking on the RRA wylde chambered barrels
As far as glass I'm thinking (budget in mind) going with the Vortex pst at around 700.00
Any thoughts on trigger would be great
And opinions on a free float pic rail budget in mind
Someone stop me if I'm talking out my ass please
Thanks again
Wayne

Might want to do a few searches on here, you are crossing into like 6-7 threads with all those questions. Good luck though. I tend to search on google and once I find something I am interested in I come back to here and search the forum for it, and if I cant find anything specific I start a thread. Alot of good threads on specifically what your asking about, barrel legth, triggers, glass, wylde Chambers, free float handguards with pics. Remember...everyone here is talking out there ass just a little bit.

On that note (talking out of ass), I was talking to one of the better F-class shooters at my range that shoots .223 out of a 30in barrel bolt gun. He shoots 85 gr Bergers at crazy speeds and says he has shot that particuar rifle to 1400 yards, said he had stop sign to prove it. I think you can squeeze alot out of a .223, going to need a bit longer barrel/fast twist ( would say 20in is short as I would go if your looking past 500), probably a more BC friendly pill than a 62gr, and some reloading time. ARs will suprise you with how well they can shoot.

 

[Guest]

In regards to triggers I have the Timney 3# in my Recce 5.56 and the SDE in my P308. Both are excellent triggers that won't disappoint you.

I just moved my Leupold Mark4 LR/T 3.5-10x40 M3 FFP scope from my P308 to my 5.56 Recce. Great scope for my intended use as my Recce is for 100-600 yd work. Past that and I switch over to my P308. I also really like the Troy Alpha rail. Its extremely light and I love how it feels/fits my hand.

 

[cb1000h]

Thank you again
Only been here 5 min and already gained some really valuable info
You guys are the fazzizzaale
Keep you all posted

Wayne

 

[BigJohn141]

AR Gold triggers for long range are hard to beat but on the higher end of the price scale. A 1:8 twist will shoot a lot of bullets well and I have heard good things about lothar barrels but most smiths won't touch them due to the fact they are hard to machine. The Rainier match barrels get really good reviews but I personally shoot a Krieger and it doesn't let the reputation down one bit. Like most others said, stick with the heavier pills, I wouldn't go below 69gr but the 75 or 77 would do much better. The 80+ works great but you cannot load them to mag length and have to single feed every one.

Oh, if you want a true beast in the AR15 platform check out the thread in this section with the "90gr going 2905fps" title. That thread has me doing some serious thinking.

 

[Nisils14]

I think you'll be better served in a bolt gun in .223 if you really want consistent hits out towards 1000yds, but that kinda takes away from your whole theme. Could also look at 6.5 grendel or 6.8spc.
I'd look at barrels that are 18"+, 1/8 twist or faster, probably stainless as well. you'll want that for 75gr+ bullets that you'll need for those further distances. RRA, WOA, Rainier, Compass lake are good brands to look at.
Triggers, can't go wrong with a Geissele or a Timney. I've got some CMC triggers in mine, and they're nice for the money. I'm sure everyone has what they like in their favorite brands.
Viper PSTs are good for what you get, 2.5-10x32 or 4-16x50 would be my choice.
As far as handguards, there's literally a million out there. Just keep researching and find one you'll like.

 

[jwb47]

yep you might want to drop the blackout for long distance . a 125 grain smk zeroed at 100 yds will drop about 175 inches at 600 yds. I have 3 of them 2 gas guns and a remington bolt . I would look real hard at a 6.5 grendel.

 

[cb1000h]

The 6.5 Grendel seams to be a dandy little round I will research more on that
Thank you

 

[HOGTOOTH5R]

+1 on the 6.5 Grendel too. 500-1,000 yard is not exactly "Mid Range" especially for a .223/.556. Like mentioned above I've had very good luck with Walther Lother Barrel on my SPR in .223 Wylde chambering. Consistent 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. Either way I would definitely go with at least 20"inch barrel to get the most velocity out of your load.

Here's my SPR Build.

 

[Wolf22]

WOA, Noveske, ARP (aka AR15Performance.com), Wilson Combat (make sure you're buying WC and not Wilson.....different animals), Ballistic Advtg, Superior Barrels, Satern, Compass Lake? or other top tier lines with a Wylde chamber, melonite done right is a nice option.

I went with 6.8 many years ago but stocked up on 6.5G at the same time - doing it again, i'd gone 6.5G, but Harrison (ARP) wasn't into the 6.5 realm and understandably so with his inv. with 68. Barrels

Triggers - WC TTU, naturally everyone states Geissele, ?? for the 'Tuned" Geissele STD AR15 trigger (the $50-75 ones), Timney , POF ??, or have a trigger job done by yourself or ? on a stock unit. might be surprised at what you get from a little time.

Customizing a 223 via loading and bullet weight could be your most universal, then 6.5G as the most applicable for what you have stated for perf. gains, or one of the other 6mm varients avail. (more research if you want other ideas)......

 

[Oryx]

The 223 round is capable of 1000 yd accuracy, but you have to pay close attention to whatis going on. Velocity and stability are the main concerns to make sure the bullets aren't going transonic ( and lose stability) prior to reaching the target. In order to achieve that you need a round that has enough power with high BC bullet and barrel length that can produce enough velocity and twist to stabilize longer bullets. Shorter lighter bullets are disadvantagedby the wind at 1000. You would be surprised what a 5 mph cross wind can do to a light 22 bullet past 600 yds. People are doing it, but there is definitely a learning curve.
If I were dead set on sticking with the 223 and building it for the purpose of 500-1000 yds I would go with a 24" barrel min, wylde chamber, 7-8 twist, ff handguards, geisesele HS national match trigger, a2 buttstock, single load 80 gr longer than mag length to increase powder capacity, and work on the load development to get your velocities correct and consistent.

That said, I would probably pick a caliber better suited for the job.

 

[HairyDemon]

BUMP!!!

But any way you slice it.....sounds like fun. My range only goes to 500, wish I had the opportunity to try past that.

 

[5spd]

The 6.5 Grendel seams to be a dandy little round I will research more on that
Thank you

Take a look at the 6.5x6.8 barrel (6.8spc necked to 6.5cal) from BHW, will beat the 6.5 grendel, BUT being a new wildcat you will have to form your brass from 6.8spc w/bushing dies etc.
BHW also has 6 variants based on necking the 6.8spc up & down w/no other changes. Only place to get barrels though is from BHW or tactical ammunition.
The 6.5g & 6.8spc is pretty easy as you can get everything for them over the counter with no forming or load dinking around.
I would not even think about the 300 blk.

 

[themightytimmah]

I would call John at White Oak - once upon a time, he built me a 20" bull barrel that would just flat out SHOOT at 600yds. Never shot it beyond that, I ran out of range before I ran out of rifle.

If you're willing to scale back to 500-800, you can really build some fun 18" guns that run mag length rounds. The kind you can shoot offhand comfortably, but will still pound half IPSC targets at a distance. Every .223 AR15 I've seen that shoots 1000 consistently was single loaded and more suitable to shoot off bags and a bipod.

IIRC, the 6.5 and 6.8 aren't super advantageous at long range. If you have the coin and reaching out to 1000yds is an absolute requirement, a 243 WSSM upper would really reach out and touch somebody.

 

[tickled pink]

If you go to a bolt gun I shoot a 6mm Norma BR. with 105 gr. Berger VLDs. I shoot in competition out to 1000 yds. with a Vortex 6-24x50mm PST FFP MOA scope. It is a real shooter and shoots less than 1/2" 5 shot groups at 200 yds. When I went hunting in Wyoming I shot it out to 1200 yds. Three of us shot it at 700 yds. at a 7" gong and only had 3 misses out of 45 shots. ( very windy ). Not bad for my hunting rifle.

My M4 Colt has a Geissele SSA-E trigger and I looked at a lot of scopes and had a 3-9x40mm that I didn't like. I ended up getting a Bushnell AR/223 which is 4.5-18x40mm and I really like it. It cut my groups in half at 100 yds. because I can see the bullet holes in the target and hold very accurately at 18 power. The glass is crystal clear also.

BUSHNELL 4.5-18X40 BDC RETICLE TARGET AR-SCOPE @ Sportsmans Outdoor Superstore: ( Best price I found.)

Two targets that I have pictures of. The three shot group is at 400 yds. ( both targets were shot with my bolt gun )

PS: I wish someone would make an AR for the 6mm Norma BR. The shells will fit in a .223 magazine single stacked with 90 grain bullets. Here is the comparison of a .243 and the 6mm Norma BR.

 

[KerDog77]

I have read somewhere the 6br had a terrible time feeding due to its shoulder angle. May or may not hold truth though.

 

[LRRPF52]

If you genuinely will spend most of your time shooting from 500-1000yds, then I would suggest taking a long-range class with loaner rifles provided by the instructors. That will give you a much better framework of what to expect.

PA is pretty limited in terrain that will allow you to shoot that far, even on farmland. What is driving the performance requirements for long-range shooting?

If you're sticking to the AR15, then the Grendel makes a lot of sense. Whatever you do, you will want to make sure your upper receiver is squared, and that you get a higher-end barrel.

 

[Oakflat]

Just out of curiosity, how much experience do you have shooting rifles in the 200-300 yard range? If you have experience, what were you shooting?

 

[Big_Rig_416]

I have read somewhere the 6br had a terrible time feeding due to its shoulder angle. May or may not hold truth though.

This was my understanding also.

 

[bschnzl]

I bought a RRA A2 national match to fire CMP matches. I had fired TAG matches in the National Guard, but there they made you use your service rifle. Some of the Air Guard guys had bumped their "service" rifles up. Mine was beat around the woods 9 weekends a year.

So when I shot my first string at CMP was in love. It's almost unfair to do trigger drills on that thing. My groups were not that good for the company I was in, but they were the best I had shot with iron sights.

RRA makes a 24" Stainless Steel Varmint barrel. It comes with the wylde chamber and 1913 gas block. It low profile in any case.

My 2¢

 

[cb1000h]

Just out of curiosity, how much experience do you have shooting rifles in the 200-300 yard range? If you have experience, what were you shooting?

Been shooting Rem 700 ltr and M1A NM out to 630yrds
Kinda wanted to switch to something new and dare say it cheaper ammo wise
I was thinking of building up my RRA NM wylde to a MK12 mod1 ish type rifle
I think I can run 72 gr and that may get me out to 600

 

[LRRPF52]

Even the 69gr and 68gr BTHP's will get you to 600yds nicely in no-wind conditions, but the 73gr-77gr pills work better for that based on BC. You can get a lot of speed from the 68 & 69's, but BC sucks compared to the longer pills.

Will you be shooting from the prone most of the time, or might take up some run & gun competitions that have targets at longer ranges? If mostly prone/bipod/rear bag, a 20" gun is great because of speed. I shot a guy's 20" Krieger custom build recently with Hornady 68gr BTHP's at 600yds, and spit a 2.5" group on the steel target down at North Springs at night during the Utah State Sniper match in September. He was checking his dope, and wanted to be on the scope while someone else shot it.

If you have access to the ranges in PA where there is a lot of treeline surrounding the cleared flat range, that often bodes very well for your wind, as in not much that can have a lot of effect on the bullets like it does out in the open, so a 20" high-end barreled AR15 can easily beat the M1A at 600 and even 1000yds, and has been doing so for about 2 decades.

Get a .223 Wylde chamber, have someone competent build your upper, get the upper receiver face squared, get a good trigger, good mount, decent glass, do some load development with the different .224 bullets that are common in Hi-power, find your sweet spots, and have fun.