Aikido is it real?

[Onemoretime]

Re: Aikido is it real?

Aikido is very real... but like mentioned above. It requires many years of practice to become effective.

I personally believe cross training is necessary as well. I've met Aikido practitioners that could not defend against a boxing structure because they had only ever had Aikido practitioners punching at them.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How come the aikido master didn't throw the guy in the video I posted earlier?

Perhaps aikido is something that has to be experienced to be believed? Do any of you know an aikido guy in Grand Junction, Colorado, I could spar with? I'm not looking for a death match or a dojo storming, just a live demonstration against a resisting opponent (me). </div></div>I'm sure that,if that's really your will,sooner or later you will be adequately awarded without travel too much_about the video:it's only a video,aka a movie:can be real or not,can be all..._for the same reason,I can ask how someone can wait an aggressor without hitting him first with a low kick on the kneecap,but that's not the point: whitout being a master of anything,I will continue to trust in the value of any effort about learning some martial arts ,independently from any dream of consequent invulnerability,in the same way I trust in my way of reloading, cleaning a rifle or pampering my chopper_If you think differently, I can only wish you to try : all the rest is only movies,videos&words_

 

[Phil1]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ghostdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSSamurai</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The most frustrating part for me is that people don't understand what gets lost in the transition from training to demonstration or sparring. In many of the techniques, the Aikidoka puts the attacker in a position where their continued attack will cause serious injury to themselves, such as the joint-locks. In sparring or demonstration, if the attacker doesn't understand the position they are in, the Aikidoka often must relax the technique to avoid serious injury. In training, students are taught to throw themselves in a way so that the technique can be followed through without harm to anyone. This is where the flying students come in, they are allowing the full energy to be diverted by the defender. In reality, when you use a fast joint lock, the other person usually isn't trained to throw themselves out of the way, so it ends up in a brutal dislocation. </div></div>

Agreed. Some people think that Aikido is fake because the Uke (the receiver of the throw) falls so easily but essentially he has only two choices: 1) relax and go with the throw and fall in a safe manner helping the Nage (the one who throws) train or 2) fight the move and dislocate or break something. Aikido is a very spiritual martial art and as such requires years of training to even begin to understand it. In short, it is very real. </div></div>

This is a good summation of Aikido. Some demonstrations of Aikido look staged and possibly "fake" if they are done at slow speed.

There are two reasons for this. Firstly Aikido is a traditional Japanese martial art. More so than some others. A substantial number of the forms of attack originates in the simulation of what purports to be a sword attack. i.e. a hand-arm in a downward strike.The 47 minute National Geographic video below has an attack and defense at 4.26 showing such a stylized attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loDA2teSB74

The second is exactly as in the answer above. If the technique is applied with speed, or power, or both. Injury can quickly result from any resistance to the technique. Many Aikido techniques can go from a submission to the breaking of hands or arms. Or the tearing of muscles quite easily.

Generally speaking, Aikido takes allot of training to deal with an attacker who is a skilled striker. But any attack whereby the attacker grabs or attempts to hold onto another person has many effective defenses. What the National Geographic video doesn't show, is that in some harder Aikido styles. The defensive technique is initiated by a strike to the face and the defensive technique applied right after, with full force.

Aikido offers allot when in a social setting you don't just want to punch or kick an attacker. Perhaps when you're in a bar or some similar situation when you don't want to punch an intoxicated person who is trying to force himself on someone. With good technique you can bring them to their knees or the floor. Without much effort, or disturbance and take the foolishness of their attitude away.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shankster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I train in the fighting art of Tapout. I have the shirt to prove it. </div></div>

LOL!!

On that note - Walmart is full of what I assume are 10th degree TapOut Masters....




Good luck

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my maximum respect,but I think that a double-tap is better,and a full burst is the best_(perhaps,I'm wrong_can be)</div></div>


get within my reach and I'll show how useless a firearm sometimes is... and I don't say that to be a "bad ass"... but your thinking is very dangerous </div></div>If you read more accurately,you will find that my joke was addressed only to a joking reply received by mr.Shankster_Outside the jokes, I fully agree with you_Best regards_</div></div>

Then I apologize Sir, I didn't realize you were joking

 

[steelman303]

Re: Aikido is it real?

If you don't believe it's real, try fuckin with one of those guys one day as they are leaving the gym & see how fast your ass is on the pavement.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelman303</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you don't believe it's real, try fuckin with one of those guys one day as they are leaving the gym & see how fast your ass is on the pavement. </div></div>

Perhaps you can direct me towards the nearest gym?

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelman303</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you don't believe it's real, try fuckin with one of those guys one day as they are leaving the gym & see how fast your ass is on the pavement. </div></div>

Perhaps you can direct me towards the nearest gym? </div></div>

Open your phonebook and find a dojo. But don't judge the art based on an individual or specific school. It sounds like you're just looking to prove that your style is better, and if you find a guy like the one in the video you posted, you can probably beat him and feel cool. I don't know what happened to that guy, but he sure wasn't doing any Aikido.

The reality is, serious Aikido guys will not compete. Any of the line of schools from the founder are specifically instructed not to compete or you will be kicked out. If you want a demonstration you will have to join the class and learn how the techniques work in their native environment. If you can't be bothered to understand why it works that way, Aikido is not for you.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSSamurai</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelman303</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you don't believe it's real, try fuckin with one of those guys one day as they are leaving the gym & see how fast your ass is on the pavement. </div></div>

Perhaps you can direct me towards the nearest gym? </div></div>

Open your phonebook and find a dojo. But don't judge the art based on an individual or specific school. It sounds like you're just looking to prove that your style is better, and if you find a guy like the one in the video you posted, you can probably beat him and feel cool. I don't know what happened to that guy, but he sure wasn't doing any Aikido.

The reality is, serious Aikido guys will not compete. Any of the line of schools from the founder are specifically instructed not to compete or you will be kicked out. If you want a demonstration you will have to join the class and learn how the techniques work in their native environment. If you can't be bothered to understand why it works that way, Aikido is not for you. </div></div>

I can see why you would think I'm an internet bully looking to bash aikido. I'm not. Also, I am not trying to prove my "style" is better than anyone else's. My "training" is little more than me rolling around at the local BJJ or MMA gyms once or twice a year. I am just looking for proof that aikido is a legitimate means of self defense. That was the OP's original question, was it not?

You state that serious aikido guys will not compete. But Force_Multiplier spars with MMA guys in his area and I am willing to bet he is more serious than you are. Also, techniques that only work in their "native environment" are largely useless for anything else.

 

[jasonahull]

Re: Aikido is it real?

I know that the " mind over matter" stuff is real. The guy that was teaching when i was a kid did some cool stuff. For example, i grabbed his arm with both hands a yanked as hard as i could but could not pull him off balance.
My original post is because every Aikido demo i have seen, the people charge straight in. There is an aikido vs judo video where the guy charges
Straight in with his arm sticking straight out. Even the older videos of Steven Segal are usually the same thing, guys running at him and , him throwing them around. You dont see many toe to toe demos where the attacker is snapping jabs and low kicks and moving around. The video i posted appeared to be more like a normal attack.
In a realistic setting you dont see guys getting thrown around, who are not charging straight in like a retard.
Those demos look like they have been rehearsed a lot.
Steven Segal is impressive and always talks tough in interviews. I would just like to see it for real against some one who will not run straight at him with their arm held out for him to grab.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Aikido is it real?

Google "Jene Lebell vs Steven Segal" for some light hearted reading and a good chuckle.

Your experience with not being able to move the instructor is exactly what I am curious about. It sounds like pretty cool stuff.

 

[jasonahull]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Google "Jene Lebell vs Steven Segal" for some light hearted reading and a good chuckle.

Your experience with not being able to move the instructor is exactly what I am curious about. It sounds like pretty cool stuff. </div></div>


Whats is even cooler is that he would very lightly hold on to my wrist, and I could not pull my arm loose from his grip.

 

[jasonahull]

Re: Aikido is it real?

In this video watch the guys arm. He holds it straight out as runs at him.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LPx7IAlRj_A"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LPx7IAlRj_A" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[jasonahull]

Re: Aikido is it real?

Here is an aikido fighter adapted for mma.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/L7iLl2myzkQ"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/L7iLl2myzkQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can see why you would think I'm an internet bully looking to bash aikido. I'm not. Also, I am not trying to prove my "style" is better than anyone else's. My "training" is little more than me rolling around at the local BJJ or MMA gyms once or twice a year. I am just looking for proof that aikido is a legitimate means of self defense. That was the OP's original question, was it not?

You state that serious aikido guys will not compete. But Force_Multiplier spars with MMA guys in his area and I am willing to bet he is more serious than you are. Also, techniques that only work in their "native environment" are largely useless for anything else. </div></div>

I'm not sure what you mean by FM being more serious than I am, but if you value his opinion higher, you might remember him saying this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as a side note...

MMA is so hugely popular that I have several younger relatives and their friends that actively train in it several time a week...

they routinely come get tossed around by my wife and I, wrist locks are banned in most sport fighting because if the damage they can inflict, granted these guys aren't top flight MMA guys, but I'm an Aikido amateur in the grand scheme of things. </div></div>

The reason why I say Aikido should be experienced in its native environment is just building off what I said earlier about it being difficult to demonstrate the potential of Aikido without injury. If you were to go to a dojo and respectfully ask about the training and techniques, I think you could find something worth pursuing.

The big attacks and movements you see in demonstrations are also an example of the difficulty of demonstrating the subtle. Those big attacks are used in the beginning, when a student is learning to read an attack, since the exaggerated movement is much more obvious. The running serves to illustrate that the defender is not meeting the attackers force head-on, and that the techniques work against a great deal of energy. What people often miss is the fact that the opposite is also true. Aikido techniques do not work if the attacker does not commit.

 

[jasonahull]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSSamurai</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can see why you would think I'm an internet bully looking to bash aikido. I'm not. Also, I am not trying to prove my "style" is better than anyone else's. My "training" is little more than me rolling around at the local BJJ or MMA gyms once or twice a year. I am just looking for proof that aikido is a legitimate means of self defense. That was the OP's original question, was it not?

You state that serious aikido guys will not compete. But Force_Multiplier spars with MMA guys in his area and I am willing to bet he is more serious than you are. Also, techniques that only work in their "native environment" are largely useless for anything else. </div></div>

I'm not sure what you mean by FM being more serious than I am, but if you value his opinion higher, you might remember him saying this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as a side note...

MMA is so hugely popular that I have several younger relatives and their friends that actively train in it several time a week...

they routinely come get tossed around by my wife and I, wrist locks are banned in most sport fighting because if the damage they can inflict, granted these guys aren't top flight MMA guys, but I'm an Aikido amateur in the grand scheme of things. </div></div>

The reason why I say Aikido should be experienced in its native environment is just building off what I said earlier about it being difficult to demonstrate the potential of Aikido without injury. If you were to go to a dojo and respectfully ask about the training and techniques, I think you could find something worth pursuing.

The big attacks and movements you see in demonstrations are also an example of the difficulty of demonstrating the subtle. Those big attacks are used in the beginning, when a student is learning to read an attack, since the exaggerated movement is much more obvious. The running serves to illustrate that the defender is not meeting the attackers force head-on, and that the techniques work against a great deal of energy. What people often miss is the fact that the opposite is also true. Aikido techniques do not work if the attacker does not commit.
</div></div>










That bit about it not working unless the attacker commits makes a lot of sense.
I see a difference between a committed, untrained fighter, and a committed attack from a trained patient fighter.
The video i originally posted is supposed to be random attacks, and punches and kicks on an Aikido master. Based on that i would say it is effective, if it is in fact a real
Unrehearsed demonstration. I just have a hard time believing those fancy moves are not more suited for attacks by someone who is not a " fighter" but a thug.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your experience with not being able to move the instructor is exactly what I am curious about. It sounds like pretty cool stuff. </div></div> this phenomenon was fairly common among the most advanced Taj Chi Chuan practitioners,too_Tha basic principles of the relatively "new born" Aikido comes from an older chinese heritage,pertaining the so-called "internal styles"_(that's the reason behind my former apparent disrespecting "japs invented nothing")_the internal sytles focalize their attention on the "storing" inside the body of a particular form of strenght/energy,named Chi_this is the byproduct of the continuous practice of the discipline named above_the phisical activity is performed in a real slow way,and with the body permanently "relaxed"_not more than one square meter is necessary to a single student to perform,rotating,all the basic 110 movements_(that'the reason because in some chinese monk's temples we can find the pavement stones consumed by generations of practitioners)_when the movements above are performed in more aggressive and fast way,you can see a deep resemblance with the Shaolin martial art,reminding that Shaolin is a "external" form,as "external"are the various forms of Karate,Tae Kwon Do,etc,_when some practitioners (two or more) perform correctly between them the Taj Chi Chuan forms,we see only a incongrous but harmonic unharming dance,because their proficiency allow to the Chi to freely flow among themselves,transferring from one to another_when someone fail te move accordingly, with a slower,faster,or diversely-minded intention than the other(s),this disaccordion will cause an interruption of the Chi flowing,an someone WILL BE pushed away,rolling, or in some way hurted,if is not relaxed or try to resist__the martial application of the Taj Chi,named Taj Chi Chuan(Chuan=Punch)comprehend throwings,kicks,punches,etc.etc._ It's easy that among all my rap above someone, more prepared, will find imprecisions caused by my ignorance about the really complex world of oriental M.A:,as by my self-learned English,therefore I hope you can forgive me about this_notwithstanding that,and beside any incoming easy joke,in good faith I hope to have helped to clear something about the matter above_Respects

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In this video watch the guys arm. He holds it straight out as runs at him.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LPx7IAlRj_A"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LPx7IAlRj_A" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> </div></div>


Again, this is kool and the gang in a dojo, attacker is for demo purposes only, designed to fail - EVERY TIME. In the real world no one (well no one with any actual fights behind them) hands you thier extended arm and assists you in the throw. At minimum, there is going to be a collision with their knee and your body and you will end up in the FUT - gonna take a lot more than what is shown in any of these tapes to get out of the FUT.

What the doubters should probably keep in mind is twofold - one, the tapes are highly stylized, and as with any kata in martial arts - regardless of style, it is meant to demonstrate grace and mastery of body position; two, (it is my understanding) that Akido is philosophically different in that they 'seek to avoid' a direct engagement.

To 'be there' and then all of a sudden not be 'there' is a cool thought and would be a skill worthy of the work it would require. However, in my book - for most folks - if you get 6 to 12 months of any 'style' before being accosted by 2 scrotebags in TapOut shirts at the local Wally World, it is the least pragmatic style for you to have put in the work during that time period. 5 - 10 yrs? Sure, it'll go just great.

IMHO, learn to strike, then to roll, then to evade.


Good luck

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: Aikido is it real?

I also agree with the above statements, and I don't think that Aikido or any art is a single solution.I studied Isshin-Ryu Karate first, then Greco-Roman wrestling with some other stuff along the way. This started 20 years ago, before BJJ and Muay Thai were popular in the states. I would definitely recommend that anyone learn a striking style in combination with a grappling style first.
I fell in love with Aikido for it's efficiency. Nobody's going to attack you when you're at your best, so a style that relies on your strength and stamina is not necessarily the best thing for self-defense. Also, many of the grappling styles are all too willing to go to ground, where Aikido can remain standing and still execute submissions and control. I found this and the multiple attacker stuff very relevant to real fighting. I'll try to find a good video on multiple attacker randori, that's where the art really shines, in my opinion.

 

[LeviBerg]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ghostdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSSamurai</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The most frustrating part for me is that people don't understand what gets lost in the transition from training to demonstration or sparring. In many of the techniques, the Aikidoka puts the attacker in a position where their continued attack will cause serious injury to themselves, such as the joint-locks. In sparring or demonstration, if the attacker doesn't understand the position they are in, the Aikidoka often must relax the technique to avoid serious injury. In training, students are taught to throw themselves in a way so that the technique can be followed through without harm to anyone. This is where the flying students come in, they are allowing the full energy to be diverted by the defender. In reality, when you use a fast joint lock, the other person usually isn't trained to throw themselves out of the way, so it ends up in a brutal dislocation. </div></div>

Agreed. Some people think that Aikido is fake because the Uke (the receiver of the throw) falls so easily but essentially he has only two choices: 1) relax and go with the throw and fall in a safe manner helping the Nage (the one who throws) train or 2) fight the move and dislocate or break something. Aikido is a very spiritual martial art and as such requires years of training to even begin to understand it. In short, it is very real. </div></div>

Ding ding ding.

I've been in it for a short while, about 10 months and even I can say it's more than real. Our sensei is a very level headed down to earth guy who can explain Aikido without the "magic" some people see it as.

What a lot of people don't see is the momentum or energy available to the defender in an all out attack. I've tried it a few times and have ended up suspended by my wrist in Nikyo (look that up) wanting to throw up because of the tension in the wrist elbow and shoulder; or seeing my feet come up past my head as I get thrown straight down

In short, Aikido is not a sport and is not a martial art based on strength. It's about gracefulness and being able to move your attacker's mind and center of gravity.

 

[Graham]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LeviBerg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been in it for a short while, about 10 months and even I can say it's more than real. Our sensei is a very level headed down to earth guy who can explain Aikido without the "magic" some people see it as.</div></div>In your area are two very accomplished senseis: Kurasawa and Kimeda. Kimeda is the senior; he is highly accomplished and well-regarded. If he still has a Dojo at Gerrard and Yonge in Toronto it's well worth the visit.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LeviBerg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been in it for a short while, about 10 months and even I can say it's more than real. Our sensei is a very level headed down to earth guy who can explain Aikido without the "magic" some people see it as.</div></div>In your area are two very accomplished senseis: Kurasawa and Kimeda. Kimeda is the senior; he is highly accomplished and well-regarded. If he still has a Dojo at Gerrard and Yonge in Toronto it's well worth the visit. </div></div>

Do you know any well regarded sensei's in Colorado?

 

[Ultraman550]

Re: Aikido is it real?

The only things that work in real life are forms of grappling and boxing. A trained wrestler will beat anybody's ass unless he's up against a very skilled jiu jitsu practitioner. Muay Thai is another lethal art but only if you're good enough to keep the distance and use your kicks. All the other arts like Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kung Fu etc... are more of a form of art for the body and mind. Granted if you take someone highly skilled in anything he/she will beat someone who is not skilled in anything.

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ultraman550</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only things that work in real life are forms of grappling and boxing. A trained wrestler will beat anybody's ass unless he's up against a very skilled jiu jitsu practitioner. Muay Thai is another lethal art but only if you're good enough to keep the distance and use your kicks. All the other arts like Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kung Fu etc... are more of a form of art for the body and mind. Granted if you take someone highly skilled in anything he/she will beat someone who is not skilled in anything. </div></div>

I disagree with this, and I think you'll find many who also disagree. The part that Aikido looks at , that very few other arts do well, is multiple attacker strategies. If you're faced with more than one attacker, grappling is suicide. Boxing is a very effective combat art, but like anything else, you have to be good at it.

Edit: and Ikeda Sensei is in Colorado, if I remember right. Should be Boulder Aikikai.

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: Aikido is it real?

It's hard to find a video that demonstrates it well, but here's a San Dan test of a guy that I used to train with. At this point, during testing the attacks are completely freestyle, and the testing student must respond to the attacks.

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[wilecoyote]

Re: Aikido is it real?

I remember that,after a heavy dose of movies,my best way to render my father really furious was asking if Hulk can beat Bruce Lee,or viceversa,if John Rambo can outshoot John Wayne,etc: I don't try to post the same questions here because I'm sure nobody will have the patience of my father,but really my advise is TRY ,outside the movies,the colour of belts,and the supposed byceps circumference_with my sincerest smile,I can guarantee that will be not wasted time_ I hope to be correctly understood_ respects_

 

[Graham]

Re: Aikido is it real?

It's Bruce Lee by a mile; and John Wayne, but not until the very end of the fight.

 

[Graham]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you know any well regarded sensei's in Colorado? </div></div>No, sorry. But Lindy trained under one out there, I think. It might be worth a PM.

 

[LeviBerg]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LeviBerg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been in it for a short while, about 10 months and even I can say it's more than real. Our sensei is a very level headed down to earth guy who can explain Aikido without the "magic" some people see it as.</div></div>In your area are two very accomplished senseis: Kurasawa and Kimeda. Kimeda is the senior; he is highly accomplished and well-regarded. If he still has a Dojo at Gerrard and Yonge in Toronto it's well worth the visit. </div></div>

I've heard both names from my instructor. I believe Kimeda is Yoshinkai, while our club is Aikiki with a big influence from Ki Society, as Tony studied Ki for years. There's a big Aikiki seminar in Toronto coming up that I'd like to go to.

Edit: As a side note, I see you're from Michigan. I study in Chatham, about halfway between Windsor and London if you know where that is.

 

[Runamuk]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSSamurai</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's hard to find a video that demonstrates it well, but here's a San Dan test of a guy that I used to train with. At this point, during testing the attacks are completely freestyle, and the testing student must respond to the attacks.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cs1l0BPl7Ck"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cs1l0BPl7Ck" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object> </div></div>

I think that video did more to prove Ultramans point than yours. Even Mike Tyson's going to get knocked out more often than not facing off with three guys with bats, or cut to pieces if they have swords like the video. Granted he might get in a shot or two, maybe even chew off an ear but my money is on the three guys with weapons.

The only thing I'd count on working in real life is something that's proven in real life. I think Ultraman got it right, at least you can see the evidence with your own eyes and in training with with opponents going full speed, not pulling punches and kicks.

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: Aikido is it real?

That's not what I see, but that's why there are so many options. I don't see how a striker, or especially a grappler could deal with multiple attackers without some kind of strategy. Aikido looks at ways of stacking opponents, throwing them into each other, and other techniques to control the situation. If you don't believe it works, I'm not going to try to convince you. I'm mostly just sharing my observations and opinion on the art. Maybe someone will read or see something that interests them.

 

[Runamuk]

Re: Aikido is it real?

No I agree with you when it comes to a grappler fighting multi opponents or a striker for that matter. Training for it isn't a bad thing and Aikido at least trains for it, but the reality of it is where I have serious doubts. Cardio and sneakers in that situation is about the only thing I see working. Pick the smallest of the three hopefully run over them and keep on trucking.

 

[TNT]

Re: Aikido is it real?

Any thoughts on Kyokushin Karate? My roommate in college was a national champ in Romania and I always thought it was pretty cool when he'd show me some of the moves he would use in a sparring match. He also got some experience with it fighting some school bullies on the street. Personally, I just like the videos of the 100 man fight. Even if the last guys are going easy on him, fighting 100 guys in a row seems pretty crazy.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1274302017525395825

 

[LeviBerg]

Re: Aikido is it real?

That's more where personal preference comes into play if I can offer my opinion. As an Aikidoist I train to take multiple attackers. The reality is that I would do my damnedest to take one guy out of the fight and GTFO like you said.

I'll add that when watching the demos and videos, picture the attacker not flipping with it but pay attention to where his head is pointed at the moment the lock or throw is done and draw an imaginary line from that point to the ground. That will be roughly what would happen if the attacker didn't move with Nage.

 

[Polytrauma]

Re: Aikido is it real?

TNT, knock down Karate is legit. Georges St- Pierres background is from Karate. Many other well known fighters compete in K1 after they leave the IK01 organzation. Andy Hug, Fransico Filho, Lechi Kurbanov, Shokei Matsui, Dolph Lundgren to name a few of better known fighters.

 

[jasonahull]

Re: Aikido is it real?

I think or should say I know what those guys can do is impressive, having experienced it first hand, so I guess what I should say or ask is, Is it practical, or realistic for fighting against another fighter? In my opinion what i have seen to be the fastest to learn without all the religion mumbo jumbo is krav maga. It looks like with a little practice anyone can pick it up quick. Not against another fighter maybe, but for self defense against thugs. However I do think against a trained fighter you have a better chance sooner with krav maga then Aikido.
Here is why I think that.... I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

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[ghostdog]

Re: Aikido is it real?

Not to throw more stuff into this thread (great thread by the way) but here is a video of Hapkido, which similar to Aikido but integrates kicks and punches. The chinese characters for Hapkido are actually the exact same as Aikido and both arts stem from Aiki-jutjutsu. a-hull don't worry too much about the art. Find something that you are interested in that is a good fit for you and study it whole heartedly.

Bruce Lee once said "Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."

My coach once asked me "What is the best kick?" When I couldn't answer he said, "The one that scores."

The bottom line is that it's the person not the art. Every martial art is effective and ineffective depending on the student. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the video. It seems to be a university recruiting video. Whether you believe it's real or not, it's some crazy stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBiRWqm6DKI&feature=related

By the way, I once sparred with a Hapkido black belt. It was just me and him and no rules. We were pulling our punches but not by much. It came from a discussion about how Hapkido could throw people if they didn't throw big punches or kicks. My strategy was to not commit too much thinking he couldn't throw me if I threw snappy kicks and jabs. I was wrong. Halfway through the sparring match I threw a strong jab and before I could pull it back I was flying through the air. I'd like to think I got my licks in too...haha...but I am a now a believer.

 

[KYpatriot]

Re: Aikido is it real?

Aikido and Hapkido look amazing. I suspect, but don't know because I dont practice it, that the opponents flying through the air are partly the result of trained athletes who "go with the throw" so as not to get a joint dislocated. For instance, the 90 pound woman in ghostdogs video above is not going to spin a 240lb bar brawler nearly 360 degrees due to a wristlock or arm bar. Not going to happen. What will happen is the guys wrist, or elbow, or shoulder will break, because he is not going to be light enough on his feet or quick enough to yield to the pressure on the joint to avoid injury. Not a slam on the discipline at all, she may still disable the guy which is the point, but in a real life fight people aren't going to be flying around like that at all.

My only experience with formal training is boxing. I am under no illusion it is sufficient to combat a trained martial artist. I dont worry about meeting trained martial artists much since most who have the discipline to study a martial art are not the guys you end up needing to fight.

In my limited formal training experience, and few real fights (but no weapons), I think in a real street fight that Krav Maga would be the most effective form of self defense. Real fights are brutal, raw aggression, visceral events in which someone gets hurt fast. The focus of krav maga seems to be to disable or kill your opponent right NOW. In a real fight that is the best and surest way to survive. I think anyone serious about training for the real world should spend at least as much time focusing on knife and gun defenses as they do anything else, incorporating your own CC weapon <span style="font-style: italic">after</span> defeating the initial attack, and the subsequent first aid when you get cut or shot. The instances where even a trained fighter endures an attack by a thug with a knife or gun without getting hurt are likely few, and that goes down exponentially with multiple attackers.

From the training I have had in very close quarters I would rather try to unarm a guy with a gun than a knife...very difficult to relieve a guy of his knife without getting hurt. Guns usually have the clear advantage but only at range. I think very few people understand how dangerous a guy with a knife at close range really is. I have trained with the electric training knives (you turn them on and an arc of electricity goes around the edge) they shock you when you are touched so that the pain teaches you to respect getting cut...it is eye opening. At the full speed a real fight happens at, you are going to get cut and about the best you can do is keep those cuts on the outside of the forearms.

It is true you should never bring a knife to a gun fight, but it is also true that trying to draw the CCW before defeating the initial attack will either result in your death or at best a mutual kill. You train with those @#$#ing shock knives and you will learn to hate but respect knives. You fight a guy who knows how to use a karambit then hopefully you have backup.

 

[jasonahull]

Re: Aikido is it real?

I agree with you on the trained athlete flying through the air vs a big dude in a bar. But I also cant help but think , some of it is just their way of marketing the martial art. The video posted by ghostdog is cool, any one of those guys cool thrash me with ease. But at 5.05 give or take, the girl sends the guy flying on to his back with a fan pushed against his chest. Thats the stuff I cant help but think is dramatized.

And i agree to about not needing to fight a person trained in martial arts, most of the guys I know that are seriously into it dont go around picking fights.

I was referring more to a fight in the ring, and would it work in there. Since joint locking isnt legal, I guess we will never know.

 

[ghostdog]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aikido and Hapkido look amazing. I suspect, but don't know because I dont practice it, that the opponents flying through the air are partly the result of trained athletes who "go with the throw" so as not to get a joint dislocated. For instance, the 90 pound woman in ghostdogs video above is not going to spin a 240lb bar brawler nearly 360 degrees due to a wristlock or arm bar. Not going to happen. What will happen is the guys wrist, or elbow, or shoulder will break, because he is not going to be light enough on his feet or quick enough to yield to the pressure on the joint to avoid injury. Not a slam on the discipline at all, she may still disable the guy which is the point, but in a real life fight people aren't going to be flying around like that at all.

My only experience with formal training is boxing. I am under no illusion it is sufficient to combat a trained martial artist. I dont worry about meeting trained martial artists much since most who have the discipline to study a martial art are not the guys you end up needing to fight.

In my limited formal training experience, and few real fights (but no weapons), I think in a real street fight that Krav Maga would be the most effective form of self defense. Real fights are brutal, raw aggression, visceral events in which someone gets hurt fast. The focus of krav maga seems to be to disable or kill your opponent right NOW. In a real fight that is the best and surest way to survive. I think anyone serious about training for the real world should spend at least as much time focusing on knife and gun defenses as they do anything else, incorporating your own CC weapon <span style="font-style: italic">after</span> defeating the initial attack, and the subsequent first aid when you get cut or shot. The instances where even a trained fighter endures an attack by a thug with a knife or gun without getting hurt are likely few, and that goes down exponentially with multiple attackers.

From the training I have had in very close quarters I would rather try to unarm a guy with a gun than a knife...very difficult to relieve a guy of his knife without getting hurt. Guns usually have the clear advantage but only at range. I think very few people understand how dangerous a guy with a knife at close range really is. I have trained with the electric training knives (you turn them on and an arc of electricity goes around the edge) they shock you when you are touched so that the pain teaches you to respect getting cut...it is eye opening. At the full speed a real fight happens at, you are going to get cut and about the best you can do is keep those cuts on the outside of the forearms.

It is true you should never bring a knife to a gun fight, but it is also true that trying to draw the CCW before defeating the initial attack will either result in your death or at best a mutual kill. You train with those @#$#ing shock knives and you will learn to hate but respect knives. You fight a guy who knows how to use a karambit then hopefully you have backup. </div></div>

Yeah, I have a lot of respect for Krav Maga and other forms of self defense. They are very effective. I guess the other thing is that it really depends on whether you want to learn martial arts or self defense. There is big difference. I'm often guilty of it but it's important to remember that martial arts are not just about self defense. That is but one aspect. Both are important but definitely different.

 

[Ultraman550]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSSamurai</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ultraman550</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only things that work in real life are forms of grappling and boxing. A trained wrestler will beat anybody's ass unless he's up against a very skilled jiu jitsu practitioner. Muay Thai is another lethal art but only if you're good enough to keep the distance and use your kicks. All the other arts like Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kung Fu etc... are more of a form of art for the body and mind. Granted if you take someone highly skilled in anything he/she will beat someone who is not skilled in anything. </div></div>

I disagree with this, and I think you'll find many who also disagree. The part that Aikido looks at , that very few other arts do well, is multiple attacker strategies. If you're faced with more than one attacker, grappling is suicide. Boxing is a very effective combat art, but like anything else, you have to be good at it.

Edit: and Ikeda Sensei is in Colorado, if I remember right. Should be Boulder Aikikai. </div></div>
I can see your point of being trained for multiple attacks unlike the fighting skills I just mentioned but if you take Chael Sanderson or Mike Tyson in their prime and pit them each against Steven Segal in his prime, Steven Segal is getting destroyed. Aikido works against people with zero training who dont have the balance, foot work, hand speed, core power and hand to eye coordination that someone who is trained does.

 

[KJMOC]

Re: Aikido is it real?

Nearly every "self defense martial art" I've ever seen always starts with what to do AFTER the ambush. Blows my mind. In academy, I can't count the drills we had that STARTED with someone's hand on our gun or with us already in a headlock. Never understood it.

Tony Blauer is a good guy to look into if you agree with my above statement.

 

[Graham]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJMOC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nearly every "self defense martial art" I've ever seen always starts with what to do AFTER the ambush. Blows my mind. In academy, I can't count the drills we had that STARTED with someone's hand on our gun or with us already in a headlock. Never understood it. </div></div>Nearly every martial art teaches how not to get into a fight, and how to avoid fighting. That's why it also teaches what to do if you can't avoid a fight. Otherwise it wouldn't be a martial art.

Aikido randori does not start the way you indicate.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Aikido is it real?

Nearly every "self defense martial art" I've ever seen always starts with what to do AFTER the ambush._
the main difference between a Master and any other aggressor or student,even if younger and phisically on better fit,is that the a Master,even for a fraction of second,can start BEFORE the opponent,allowing better to HIS own technique to flow_That can apparently be seen as a "faster" Master_in my opinion,this can be applied in all of what you call "self def.m.a."_correctly,all is AFTER the ambush,but remembering that ,following the oriental thinking,"fallin' in a ambush" is considered a mayor error,anyway,as will be a fault the fight in itself,considered as last chance to repair&survive to the former "mayor error"_ Any biography of Musashi,or his "Five rings Book"(recommended),will be helpful to understand it, to understand His mindset,and the difference between His" goin'to a fight" and the "falling in a ambush",even if it was only a "japanese barbarian",for the Chineses of His times_ Despite the level of a oriental M.A.student,or Master,even in the or.middle age they know that anyone,even a Master, can make an error,therefore the concept of "AFTER"the ambush_

 

[KJMOC]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJMOC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nearly every "self defense martial art" I've ever seen always starts with what to do AFTER the ambush. Blows my mind. In academy, I can't count the drills we had that STARTED with someone's hand on our gun or with us already in a headlock. Never understood it. </div></div>Nearly every martial art teaches how not to get into a fight, and how to avoid fighting. That's why it also teaches what to do if you can't avoid a fight. Otherwise it wouldn't be a martial art.

Aikido randori does not start the way you indicate. </div></div>

I apologize if I wasn't clear on my point but your response does not address my issue.

 

[shark0311]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Runamuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No I agree with you when it comes to a grappler fighting multi opponents or a striker for that matter. Training for it isn't a bad thing and Aikido at least trains for it, but the reality of it is where I have serious doubts. Cardio and sneakers in that situation is about the only thing I see working. Pick the smallest of the three hopefully run over them and keep on trucking.</div></div>

How about a real fight...

Stupid striker

 

[jasonahull]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJMOC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nearly every "self defense martial art" I've ever seen always starts with what to do AFTER the ambush. Blows my mind. In academy, I can't count the drills we had that STARTED with someone's hand on our gun or with us already in a headlock. Never understood it.

Tony Blauer is a good guy to look into if you agree with my above statement. </div></div>



Interesting, I never really thought of that before. But it is true.

 

[jasonahull]

Re: Aikido is it real?

[/quote] How about a real fight...

Stupid striker [/quote]



I have seen that before. Crazy. Amazing what good straight punches will do.
Not alot of wasted movement there.

 

[Graham]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJMOC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I apologize if I wasn't clear on my point but your response does not address my issue. </div></div>What's your issue?

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Aikido is it real?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a-hull</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote] How about a real fight...

Stupid striker </div></div>



I have seen that before. Crazy. Amazing what good straight punches will do.
Not alot of wasted movement there. [/quote]Any well trained boxeur can be bad news for average untrained people_ the TRAINING is a real sacrifice:NOT EASY,SOFT,or PAINLESS_It's only another (occidental) way to skin the cat,not more sure-fire than others_