Am I expecting too much from a cheap rifle?

[Morgan321]

I have the cheapest remington 700 you can buy. It came with a throw away scope, has a toy-like injection molded stock, and you can't even drop the rounds out the bottom of the rifle. I picked it up real cheap for bear hunting a couple years ago and fired under 20 rounds from it. I moved and some guys I know go shoot a lot so I dug it out to shoot at some paper. The scope broke and it now couldn't keep rounds on a piece of 8.5x11 paper!

I threw a swfa ss on it and got to try it out today. When it's cooperating it will do groups around 2 inches(100yd). With a little luck it'll do 1.5 inches. But once every 2-5 rounds it will lose a round. I'm not talking it will be an inch or two off, I mean it will be anywhere from 1-8 inches away from the group!

I'm no world class marksman, but I can shoot good enough to know its not me causing a random round to be lost. The gun is 30-06 and I'm using old surplus garand ammo all from the same lot(today I shot ammo made in 1969!), I saw somewhere how old bullets could sieze to the case so I figured that could be it. I tried a few rounds of new ammo and one of those rounds got lost too! When the round is lost it's not just in elevation, it's off in windage too so I don't see how it could be old primer/powder issues.

I noticed that there is about 1-2mm of clearance between the stock and barrel. The stock flexes so much that simply pushing near the cheek rest area gently with one finger will twist the stock enough to touch the barrel. Interestingly, I got the best groups when I held the rifle as loosely as possible. Coincidence? The barrel is very thin and with the toy stock the rifle is extremely light, well under 10lb.

I also thought perhaps the newly mounted scope was moving or something, but the lost round is random and otherwise it seems as good as I think should be expected. The rings are leupold QRW and the base is whatever cheap base came on the rifle. Everything is tight with no signs of movement.

So, my questions are:
Am I expecting too much from this rifle? I would be happy with these groups from a $400 rifle if it didn't loose a random shot every few rounds.
What would be a reasonable level of accuracy and consistency to expect from this rifle?
Can a stock touching a barrel really make a round shift multiple moa? If so, could I shim the barrel to touch the stock so that it is at least consistent? I don't want to spend $$$ on a nice stock!
If the stock couldn't be my problem what else could I look at?

The pictured groups are representative. If one of the groups lost a round I simply shot another round at it.

 

[ShtrRdy]

The stock could definitely have that sort of effect. Did you also check the tightness of the screws on the bottom?

Otherwise getting about 2" groups at 100 yds is pretty normal for a run-of-the-mill Rem 700.

 

[roggom]

Shoot the rifle off of bags using some other ammo. Pretty sure the results will be better. When approaching group size you should tackle one variable at a time.

Shooting off bags(with hand supporting the forearm or the buttstock) will give you more consistency with stock support. Bipod can add loading in to the mix.

Use some factory ammo, even though the surplus is from the same lot, it could have been banging away in a duece and a half and now some of the bullets are pushed in further. (inconsistant OAL)

I would not dink with the stock, the cheap ones can work if you are hunting at close range and offhand, other than that, useless.

Shooting strings of 5-8 can cause heat shift, especially if the barrel is touching any part of the forearm. Most will have a small pressure pad up front, and it will help a bit. Just remember its a hunting rifle.

All that said, your rifle can be made to shoot sub -moa, but it will take some work. Stock, bedding, trigger and handloads--all or a combination for the win.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

You admittedly bought the cheapest rifle around then fed it with crap ammo. Ummm yep! that is what you can expect.

 

[BigJimFish]

So, my questions are:
Am I expecting too much from this rifle? I would be happy with these groups from a $400 rifle if it didn't loose a random shot every few rounds.
What would be a reasonable level of accuracy and consistency to expect from this rifle?
Can a stock touching a barrel really make a round shift multiple moa? If so, could I shim the barrel to touch the stock so that it is at least consistent? I don't want to spend $$$ on a nice stock!
If the stock couldn't be my problem what else could I look at?

1) No, you are expecting to much from the worthless shit ammo you are buying. You could run that ammo though a Gradous custom rifle and it still wouldn't hold 3" groups. Buy some good ammo. Black Hills, Hornady, and Federal all make a match 30-06 load.
2) I don't know, cheap factory Remingtons can be a bit of a luck of the draw, but better than 2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards anyway. I wouldn't be real surprised if it did between 1" and 1.5"
3) Probably not, that is a bit much shift.... I'm not really sure what you are planning to do with this shim but I'm going to say no as it sounds like your not even really sold on the idea.
4) Your ammo.

 

[jimmykm21]

Did you shoot a bear with it?
If you did you got your money's worth.
You said it's a very thin barrel .
Those barrels heat up quick and even with good ammo you will have flyers.

It's not made for extended shooting sessions, it's a cheap hunting rifle that will get the job done.

 

[Morgan321]

Yes it is a cheap rifle. Yes it is old surplus ammo(I got a few thousand rounds for free!). A more skilled shooter could definitely make the groups tighter. All things considered I'm very satisfied with the groups I'm getting, just not with the random flyer. The flyer is the problem I want to eliminate.

I shot fast enough for the barrel to heat up, but never so hot that you couldn't hold your hand on it. I'm not good enough to account for barrel heat and the flyers were completely random whether the barrel was cold, hot, or in between. I'm quite satisfied that heating is not the problem.

The modern ammo I had yesterday also gave a flyer or two out of maybe 8 rounds and it did not group noticably better than the 40 year old stuff! The new ammo I had was very heavy soft point hunting ammo, not some fancy match ammo. I don't doubt quality ammo would make better groups. I also don't believe either ammo I tried was the cause of the flyers.

So I will try fesh ammo and investigate the stock contact the barrel issue. Anything else I can do? Other than buy a new rifle.

 

[MarinePMI]

This isn't by chance actually a 710? You know, the world's largest excuse for a low cost bolt action rifle? If so, place firmly under rear tire of your vehicle, put said vehicle in reverse and release brake. When completely over previously mention POS rifle, place vehicle in drive and pull forward until tire is clearly forward of said POS rifle. Rinse and repeat as needed until POS rifle is in its natural and normal state of a pile of shit parts suitable for serving as a tomato stake in the garden.

 

[mrbungle]

the ammo you are shooting has alot to do with groupings. i have shot alot of mil surplus and now getting into match grade ammo and my groups are getting better. practice dry firing the weapon. dry firing to get position and trigger pull down. do everything you would do if you were going to shoot a target. the pratice will give you better basics when shooting. but expecting a 300 dollar rifle to preform like a 4000 dollar custom is not going to happen.

 

[Joe Perlo]

I have had the same problem with almost the same gun (.300WM). What I did was take a Bell & Carlson stock off of a 30-06 that I had in the safe and tried it on the .300 and no more flyers. A bedded stock does wonders. Joe

 

[rpk762]

Surplus ammo is not the best but it should consistently hold under 3MOA. I picked up a 700 in 3006 but with a wood stock. I am able to shoot KA ball under 2inches. I just wanted the brass for reloading. Handloads shoot much better.

Any way long story short you may want to pick up a cheap wood stock that someone has taken off their rifle. I have seen some go for $35. I did a quick look and looks like there are many for less than 100.

 

[40xs]

It's hard to make chicken salad out of chiken s--t. just saying. I believe the action you have is a "sleeved" action ( correct me if I'm wrong).
also, the bedding is non existent in that model i think. Thirdly, it's a slim barrel. All of these take away from precison shooting. I had a nice .270 that shot well on cold bore. But after the third shot I had to put it up. It was a thin barrel. You have an entry level hunting rifle, nothing more!! How does it do on first cold bore shot? For hunting that's all you need.

 

[BWB]

You could pick up a reasonably priced laminate stock, bed it and get some decent ammo. You can get a Boyds laminate stock for around $100...

 

[lash]

I dropped my cheap 700 ADL into an inexpensive laminate bedded stock and am now getting consistent groups under 1" at 100 yds. The stock WAS the biggest issue for mine. Second biggest issue is just me.

 

[tylerw02]

You are expecting too much from the shooter, ammo, rifle combination.

If you want it to shoot better, there is a solution.

First, practice.

Second, consider a different stock. I'd look into a laminate as mentioned above for a "budget" stock, bedding, and all that. If you have a hair more cash, consider a B&C with a bedding block, H-S Precision, or if you want the best; Manners, or McMillan.

Third, practice some more.

Finally, good ammo is paramount for improving groups.

I've yet to see a 700 that wouldn't shoot sub-moa when fed good ammunition wearing a stiff stock with stress-free bedding.

 

[AZ.noob]

tylerw02 ^ beat me to it, almost word for word.

Some time ago I bought a 700 SPS Varmint in 308, with an interest in getting into precision shooting. My results weren't much better than yours; maybe I got a Monday morning or Friday afternoon gun (off the production line)... who knows. I do know that it was more frustration than it was fun. Upgrading the Remington was looking more and more like trying to polish a turd, so I've since bought a Savage 10 FCP McMillan, and it's night and day.

Not bashing Remington, but I priced out what hotroddin' my 700 would cost, and I'm money ahead by going the Savage route

 

[Morgan321]

It is a 700 adl. The action looks like any normal 700 action I've ever seen, no sign of any sort of sleeve in the receiver or on the bolt. The stock has 0 bedding, the action literally lays on some plastic webbing molded to fill up the hollow space in the stock!

I appreciate the help, but its like some people dont read. I know its a cheap gun, I'm satisfied with the groups, I know a better shooter could get tighter groups, all i want is to stop the flyers! I got some hornady match ammo to try, but I don't see how ammo could cause such distant flyers. I'm also going to experiment with the stock issue and try to borrow a friends better quality stock. Any more ideas? Other than replacing it.

 

[BWB]

You are on the right track, try a different stock. That cheap Tupperware stock isn't helping your cause, a Laminate Wood stock and a good bedding job can go a long ways for little money. I have had really good luck with Boyds stocks, good stock for a good price IMO.

 

[tylerw02]

The flyers are part of the groups. How do you know its not the rifle? How do you know its not the ammo? How do you know its not YOU?

 

[Night Eagle]

im gonna have to +1 what tylerw02 said...this is why they call them groups. dude, your trying to get rich mans haircut for a poor mans price...aint gonna happen.

night eagle

 

[RTK]

There is only one way to measure or claim a group the way I look at it and that is always the one that is biggest. Sure we can all shoot a good group, but what is the average group (worst) we usually shoot.

 

[8AteEight]

+1 for the "hit or miss" comment, but also that that ammo is just crap. I had one of those very 700s, but it was shooting exactly MOA with the correct handloads. I hated the safety-bind, the scope, the trigger, and the general POS-ness of the whole thing, so I sold it and started looking at a Savage. ....juss sayin.

 

[Morgan321]

OK. Shot a a box of hornady match ammo and about 30 more surplus rounds. Pressure on the stock or barrel touching the stock makes a difference, but not nearly as much as I thought. Didn't lose any of the surplus rounds, about 1/2 of the were in 3 inch circle and the other half were scattered around a 7 inch diameter circle. All 20 of the hornady match rounds grouped in 2 inches or less. The conditions were very poor so I'm very happy with the hornady ammo. So I'll eat my words, I could never have imagined the ammo could suck so much! The stock is an issue, but not nearly to the extent I thought it was.

So now decision time.... Will the military brass perform well when reloaded? I have a large supply of surplus ammo and spent brass and want to try my hand at loading my own down the road so I like 30-06. If the brass sucks I'll sell it to Garand guys and get another box stock 700 with a heavy barrel and better stock.

If the brass is good for reloading I'll look for a good stock now and just have the action worked over and a new heavy barrel down the road sometime. Suggestions?

 

[RampedRaptor]

I know for 223 brass with enough work Its as good as most commercial brass.
I would assume the same is true with 30-06. Do all the work on it and I'm sure it will be good to you for many reloads.

 

[ccoker]

Maybe some obvious question,s here but have you cleaned the barrel well, checked the crown, checked the action screws, checked the scope mount screws, etc??

 

[DesertLefty]

I dropped my cheap 700 ADL into an inexpensive laminate bedded stock and am now getting consistent groups under 1" at 100 yds. The stock WAS the biggest issue for mine.

Yup, that flimsy plastic ADL stock is probably the biggest limitation. See if you can find a take-off stock from a long-action Sendero that uses the (old) HS Precision stock. It'll have 10X the rigidity and it has a built-in aluminum bedding block that will help you get consistent contact between the action and the stock without any gunsmithing.

Don't assume that your surplus ammo is the problem. It might be great. Garand ammo made in 1969 isn't old - it's freakin' brand new! It might not be Black Hills Match, but it probably shoots way better than the gun.

Second limiting factor is probably your barrel. Get a jar of JB Bore Paste and spend an hour cleaning and polishing the bore. If you don't have a good one-piece (coated) cleaning rod, go buy one.

Third limiting factor is probably the trigger. Find an experienced gunsmith and pay $40 to get a trigger job. It WILL help, maybe a LOT.

I've been able to get 1/2-1/3 MOA accuracy out of my factory 700's, but they were heavier weight Varmint Synthetics and Senderos. 1 MOA out of a pencil-weight hunting barrel is probably pretty OK and 2 MOA might be as good as you can do with this combo. If you really want match-grade accuracy, sell the ADL plus your truckload of '06 ammo and buy a 5R in .308.

Oh, yeah. Welcome to the game!

 

[Pappasniper]

OK. Shot a a box of hornady match ammo and about 30 more surplus rounds. Pressure on the stock or barrel touching the stock makes a difference, but not nearly as much as I thought. Didn't lose any of the surplus rounds, about 1/2 of the were in 3 inch circle and the other half were scattered around a 7 inch diameter circle. All 20 of the hornady match rounds grouped in 2 inches or less. The conditions were very poor so I'm very happy with the hornady ammo. So I'll eat my words, I could never have imagined the ammo could suck so much! The stock is an issue, but not nearly to the extent I thought it was.

So now decision time.... Will the military brass perform well when reloaded? I have a large supply of surplus ammo and spent brass and want to try my hand at loading my own down the road so I like 30-06. If the brass sucks I'll sell it to Garand guys and get another box stock 700 with a heavy barrel and better stock.

If the brass is good for reloading I'll look for a good stock now and just have the action worked over and a new heavy barrel down the road sometime. Suggestions?

View attachment 7092

Sounds like your on track now. If your gun is a hunting rifle, get a new stock and timney trigger and use it for hunting and occasional shooting or sell it. Then buy a tactical , heavier barrel gun if you want to dump 20 plus rounds per trip to the range. The famous Rem 700's are good guns. I'm a fan of the 5r's. good luck

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I skipped to the end here, and simply assume all that precedes is true. but don't send that rifle to the crusher just yet.

Start with a good cleaning, make sure anything that can get loose isn't, make sure the crown isn't fudged, and invest in a box or two of decent Fed Gold Medal .30-'06 168gr match ammo (assuming you can find any...).

You could still get a pleasant surprise or two.

I did when I bought a used .30-'06 Win 70 plastic stocked hunter off the store wall, and ran it through a Sniper Comp the next day after doing what I just recommended, all the way through to the pleasant surprises (4th place). To this day, it and my Garand will be among the last rifles I would willingly part with.

Greg

 

[Morgan321]

I have many cans of surplus m2 and m72 ammo. I was shooting from a single can of loose m2 ball only because it was loose(ie not in Garand clips). Today I shot a 20-rd box of m72 and some rounds from a sealed can of m72. I did 12 3rd groups and the worst was 2moa with a few under 1moa. I shot a few rounds of some cheap hunting ammo and it did 3moa. Shot some of the loose m2 and it was back to 6-8moa again. I guess the short story is its defenitely the ammo! The m72 was consistent enough I could call most of the shots and it was obvious where my skills need brushing up, so I'm very happy now and will definitely keep this rifle. I'm going to look for a decent remington take-off stock and get a good bipod and the rifle will definitely not hold me back for a while.

Anybody want to buy a few hundred rounds of loose 30-06? I'll guarantee 8moa of accuracy! I had no idea ammo could be bad like this, the whole can is horrible! I'm glad this thread convinced me to try buying some new match ammo otherwise I would've probably gotten rid of the gun and started over with another.

 

[Morgan321]

Forgot to add the requisite picture of one of the better groups. Most of the groups had touching holes even, so I'm very pleased.

View attachment 7758