My procedure for cleaning is after every firing I wet tumble with SS pins and run through my brass dryer. I have been told that removing the interior carbon is a huge mistake as the carbon layer is needed for bullet "lube". Others have said its hogwash and perfectly clean brass is just fine. Well today at the range it was a shouting match between two people telling me different things. Posting here to get the low down...
Am I over cleaning my brass??
- Thread starter Southpaw Shooter
- Start date
I have tried both ways. If you’re loading massive lots, you may get SD spikes over time with the same ammo with Bullet/casing weld - this assumes your ammo sits loaded for a while. If you’re loading right before you go to the range, it won’t matter anyway.
Less time cleaning is better for my process. If anything, I dry tumble to knock off case lube after my sizing procedure.
Less time cleaning is better for my process. If anything, I dry tumble to knock off case lube after my sizing procedure.
You can buy dry neck lubes, to put it back in. Why clean it out, to put it back in though? You could cut down your tumble times. I don't have much experience, I have always used corn cob media.
I have the Imperial dry neck lube in the little ceramic beads but could never figure it out. It always seems to be on the outside of the case but it don't stick to the inside? I even tested this with q-tips and there is hardly any there but thick on the outside, gave up on it and went back to my wet lube method for the case necks. I run a small (22 cal) bore mop with a light coating of RCBS case lube 2 through the inside of the necks and then resize, then swab out the excess with a clean mop.
I used to get mine really clean. I realized it was pointless so now I dry tumble for about an hour with some polish and call it good. As long as the brass looks pretty clean on the outside and any chunks are expelled from the inside I am happy and the ammo shoots good.
Brass starts life out spotless. Factory ammo is loaded into new clean brass and there is some mighty fine factory ammo out there. I have done testing on both wet tumbled brass and just vibratory cleaned brass (same batch split 50/50) and I have not recorded any data that lead to a clear difference. Different brands of brass with different internal volumes (magnums were most widespread) have made much more of an impact on my data than cleaning has.
You need to shake the shit out of it because the lube is on the bottom of the container. Pour out a third of the balls to make this easier. Once the lube is well distributed it will adhere to your cases better.
I lube the necks prior to expanding them with my carbide mandrel. This smears the lube into the neck. The difference between lube and no lube is about 20fps. Lube eliminates cold welding. It is the way to go if you’re wet tumbling.
Well I have decided to do a "back to back" comparison test to find out. I took 10 rounds fired and decapped (not cleaned at all) scrubbed the primer pocket and resized them, also took 10 rounds of clean brass primed and loaded them exactly the same. First off I can tell you its harder to press in the bullet with the dirty brass. The rest will come at the range as I will setup my Labradar and get good ES and SD numbers from them to compare.
Well I guess me wet tumbling for 2-3 hours is overkill LOL.
I use extremely clean brass apparently but I dip bullets into the imperial dry lube. I seat them with one finger pressure with my coax.
I use extremely clean brass apparently but I dip bullets into the imperial dry lube. I seat them with one finger pressure with my coax.
My normal wet tumbling time is 2.5 hours and they come out looking new. This is what I have done since the start and it has seemed to work and now with one rifle giving me fits its a big deal about the clean brass. I'm no expert and will always listen to what is being said, right or wrong I like to hear what others are doing and what works for them. However I'm not to sure on this dirty brass thing fixing my accuracy issues??
New brass does not start out spotless.
If you are having 100y accuracy issues, look elsewhere. Having trouble with vertical spread at distance due to high SDs after your ammo sits for a while, Its probably caused by galvanic corrosion between the two dissimilar metals. Some dry lube or not cleaning all the carbon out of the necks is the common solution.
If you are having 100y accuracy issues, look elsewhere. Having trouble with vertical spread at distance due to high SDs after your ammo sits for a while, Its probably caused by galvanic corrosion between the two dissimilar metals. Some dry lube or not cleaning all the carbon out of the necks is the common solution.
Just keep in mind: if it’s working for you then it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks.
Try brushing the insides of the neck lightly with a nylon brush - just enough to remove the loose crud, not enough to start removing the 'film'.
I started using the bore tech case cleaner instead of dawn and lemishine and it cuts my tumbling down to 15 minutes total. 1oz to 1 gallons of water and I run more SS pins and less brass, about 80-100 308 sized cases and 8lbs of media. I do 10 minutes the first go and then 5 minutes after sizing and trimming/chamfering to remove the brass shavings and lube. The majority of the carbon is removed but the mouths and necks aren't all peened up from long tumbling times.
Before loading I squirt a little bit of lanolin/alcohol lube on a Q-tip, let it dry out a few minutes and run it around the inside of the necks and reapply some more lube to the Q-tip every 25 pieces or so. It's just a very light film that won't contaminate the powder or cause it to stick, but it gives your rounds some lubricity and keeps them from corroding together.
Before loading I squirt a little bit of lanolin/alcohol lube on a Q-tip, let it dry out a few minutes and run it around the inside of the necks and reapply some more lube to the Q-tip every 25 pieces or so. It's just a very light film that won't contaminate the powder or cause it to stick, but it gives your rounds some lubricity and keeps them from corroding together.
Heres the results,... This is 20 rounds total, 10 dirty brass with only the primer pockets cleaned, 10 like new clean all FL resized loaded using my Chargemaster lite using IMR 4166 40.0gr / Nosler Custom comp 175gr / Rem 9 1/2 primer / seated to .036 jump.
The data is as follows...
Dirty brass velocity 2494 / ES 45 / SD 17.4
Clean brass velocity 2500 / ES 25 / SD 9.9
And the actual target from 200 yds. with the top 10 shots dirty and the bottom 10 clean.
The data is as follows...
Dirty brass velocity 2494 / ES 45 / SD 17.4
Clean brass velocity 2500 / ES 25 / SD 9.9
And the actual target from 200 yds. with the top 10 shots dirty and the bottom 10 clean.
First off, I’d say if you want to look to ES as an indicator, you’ll need 30 of each load to be statistically valid.
Second, I applaud you taking the time to do this test but if those are 1” squares on that target grid then overcleaning case necks shouldn’t really be an issue you focus on right now in your shooting journey.
I’d suggest loading 60 of each, run the same test with 30 of each and set the other batch aside for a few months and then shoot them. That would be an excellent test in my opinion, and test the case weld idea.
Second, I applaud you taking the time to do this test but if those are 1” squares on that target grid then overcleaning case necks shouldn’t really be an issue you focus on right now in your shooting journey.
I’d suggest loading 60 of each, run the same test with 30 of each and set the other batch aside for a few months and then shoot them. That would be an excellent test in my opinion, and test the case weld idea.
I'd say he proved that doing *nothing* to the case necks doesn't help much. And that's being generous.
Most of the better F-class and BR shooters I know tried SS cleaning, and either went back to dry media and/or brushing, or use something like the imperial dry neck lube to overcome the additional resistance that squeaky clean necks cause.
Most of the better F-class and BR shooters I know tried SS cleaning, and either went back to dry media and/or brushing, or use something like the imperial dry neck lube to overcome the additional resistance that squeaky clean necks cause.
I would say with a 2-3 moa load. I would go back to square one. Maybe shoot some factory match. Then run load development again if I found the rifle shoots ok.
I like to wet tumble for approximately an hour. It cleans the brass inside and out plugged primer pockets. I use to just dry tumble. I don't know of a huge difference other than one is truly clean.
Post#3
If you are having issues because the brass is "too clean" you are tumbling it too long. 30 minutes gets it gleaming on the outside, and knocks the big shit off the inside. No more is necessary. Truth be told if you add lemishine it's bright on the outside in about ten minutes.
I don't really tumble to get it shiny, or to clean the inside of the case. I SS tumble primarily because it eliminates the need to clean flash holes/uniform pockets. The clean primer pockets are what sold me initially, and why I keep doing it. The rest is cosmetic unless you overdo it.
If you are having issues because the brass is "too clean" you are tumbling it too long. 30 minutes gets it gleaming on the outside, and knocks the big shit off the inside. No more is necessary. Truth be told if you add lemishine it's bright on the outside in about ten minutes.
I don't really tumble to get it shiny, or to clean the inside of the case. I SS tumble primarily because it eliminates the need to clean flash holes/uniform pockets. The clean primer pockets are what sold me initially, and why I keep doing it. The rest is cosmetic unless you overdo it.
This test was not an accuracy test, I loaded powder I don't like and bullets I don't shoot, not going to waste my good stuff on a clean vs dirty brass test that was really only to prove a point to me. I thought it would be interesting so I posted it up. Shooting this was a "hurry up" affair, loosing light and the trap shooters wanting to setup equipment for tomorrow. Sorry to disappoint on the groups size...
Not sure he was going for group size or load development with his test. The data set is very coarse and small but atleast it is comparing one variable within a reasonable constraint, so the data is comparable. As with any data set people have pre conceived notions about what they believe to be correct. So, regardless of the test or data size some people are going to agree with it and promote it, while others are going to either try to poke holes in the testing parameters or change the focus of the test.
No worries, I think you are spot on and the ES/SD numbers tell the real story. I’d like to see the bullet/case weld idea tested, that would be interesting.
That is a good job of promoting this test while simultaneously trying to discredit anyone who sees problems with it as being "anti SS tumbling." I see what you are doing and its not helpful to anyone. People are in here chasing their tales with jacked up SDs and load development everyday, and attempts like this to stop people from explaining problems in peoples test, so they can learn is stupid. Weighing powder is not controlling variables to with in a reasonable constraint.
New brass is not perfectly clean, it is coated. All manufactures do it with different proprietary coatings.
https://www.petersoncartridge.com/about/technical-articles/93-liquid-chamfer
It's really interesting that you post that... a week or so ago, while shooting the breeze with a fellow competitor at a HP match, we were discussing various loading methods, including using brass 'straight out of the box/bag' and how much if any prep needed done.
Most people I know that use Lapua brass have found that the neck tension out of the box is too high for comfort, and the bullets get all scarred up if you happen to pull them. If I had to guess who the other 'major competitor' in that last photo in the linked article was...
The fellow I was talking with said he'd cornered the Lapua rep at a major match a year or so ago about this, and the advice he was given was literally to "tumble in dirty media". Supposedly the brass from the factory has been chemically cleaned, essentially 'etched', and there is too much friction when seating bullets in bare necks. Tumbling in dirty media deposited just enough of a film over that squeaky clean surface to make seating smooth like it would be on a reload, despite the 'tight' necks.
While I admit I haven't tested this myself - I'm not going to bust open a new box of Lapua for no other reason than to test that one theory - it does jive pretty closely with what my (and others) experiences have been with getting the necks 'too clean' with either ultrasonic or (extended) wet tumbling, vs. using dry media. There needs to be *some* film in there over the bare metal for optimal, consistent seating. Whether that is a 'liquid chamfer' as Petersen calls it, or from "tumbling in dirty media" or from running a bore mop loaded with Imperial dry neck lube in every case... it's my sincere belief that it does make a difference.
I do know that when I went from wet media / bare necks to lubing them with Imperial, my group sizes and ES/SD went down. When I decided that I *really* didn't need clean/shiny primer pockets that badly and went back to dry tumbling... they stayed down.
I’m just going to say this test should be run with a larger data set. To get a good comparison between the data set (sample of shots) and population (all possible shot variance within the parameters) we need a statistically valid sample data set, which is 30 shots for each.
I’m not going to go into the statistics, but standard deviation changes with the size of the data set. Any volunteers with a magnetospeed, SS cleaning setup and lapua brass?
I’m not going to go into the statistics, but standard deviation changes with the size of the data set. Any volunteers with a magnetospeed, SS cleaning setup and lapua brass?
Very interesting. I wonder if that contributes to the color Lapua brass gets. I always hit the necks in new lapua with an expander ball, but seating pressure is always all over the place still in new brass. Makes sense.
Mother of God. That article is bullshit. The jacket gets fucked by the lands when shot so much more than a little surface marring when loading it into the case mouth it's absurd to suggest we are chamfering for that reason or it makes one iota of difference. I'm not chamfering to, "prevent any burrs (which were produced from over-all-length trimming at the factory) from catching on the bullet jacket during loading". I chamfer mostly to uniform the lip of the case mouth to get even neck tension, and to balance a bullet on the press and reduce run-out during seating. In extreme cases you even need a little bell so you don't crumple a case with a spitzer (which I've done). Peterson is blowing smoke about a lubricant to avoid some surface scratches on the bullet when inserting it into the neck. I've never heard such bullshit before. How deep are those scratches? 1/10,000th? Almost unmeasurable with typical reloading equipment? It is an utter conceit to believe this has any measurable effect whatsoever. They're playing on the hyper anal who don't want to shoot "scratched bullets", and don't understand what happens to a bullet as it moves down the barrel.
I don't buy factory ammunition, or know much about it, but I certainly don't want any coating on the cases I buy. I want them raw brass and clean so I can control all variables and produce the most consistent and uniform cartridges possible. Uniformity is more important than anything else. A coating that I can't reapply and that rubs off would entirely defeat that.
To me this clean or not clean cannot be anywhere near as important as a whole host of other factors, so in that we're in complete agreement that this is mostly a preference thing, and not something to concentrate on in your hand loading till everything else is completely worked out. If everything else is right, and you want to play with tumbling or vibrating, or whatever that's fine, but if you want to see if it really matters go to the benchrest world.
In fact, if I recall correctly the Lyman book says it's a matter of pride in making shiny cases, and (what I consider the authority) Tony Boyer says:
"In my world I am not concerned with cleaning the inside of the case body. I, and many others, do clean the inside of the neck of the 6PPC case with a 6mm bore brush. At one time we used to polish the inside of the necks but did not find that it helped at all. I feel certain that the changes in temperature and humidity play a far bigger role than the difference in internal volume of the case caused by powder fouling.
Regards,
Tony"
emphasis mine.
These are the guys who also meticulously clean out the primer pockets, and uniform their flash holes. They're brushing the necks to make them clean, and nothing more. Does brushing create scratches that affects neck tension...? If you're shooting PRS/Tactical Steel and are holding under a minute you're good to go, and if you never even think about this stuff it will never matter. You can theorize whatever you want, but Boyer and most of the champion bench rest guys did it by trial and error, and they do so many operations they only do the things that matter.
QED as far as I'm concerned.
I don't buy factory ammunition, or know much about it, but I certainly don't want any coating on the cases I buy. I want them raw brass and clean so I can control all variables and produce the most consistent and uniform cartridges possible. Uniformity is more important than anything else. A coating that I can't reapply and that rubs off would entirely defeat that.
To me this clean or not clean cannot be anywhere near as important as a whole host of other factors, so in that we're in complete agreement that this is mostly a preference thing, and not something to concentrate on in your hand loading till everything else is completely worked out. If everything else is right, and you want to play with tumbling or vibrating, or whatever that's fine, but if you want to see if it really matters go to the benchrest world.
In fact, if I recall correctly the Lyman book says it's a matter of pride in making shiny cases, and (what I consider the authority) Tony Boyer says:
"In my world I am not concerned with cleaning the inside of the case body. I, and many others, do clean the inside of the neck of the 6PPC case with a 6mm bore brush. At one time we used to polish the inside of the necks but did not find that it helped at all. I feel certain that the changes in temperature and humidity play a far bigger role than the difference in internal volume of the case caused by powder fouling.
Regards,
Tony"
emphasis mine.
These are the guys who also meticulously clean out the primer pockets, and uniform their flash holes. They're brushing the necks to make them clean, and nothing more. Does brushing create scratches that affects neck tension...? If you're shooting PRS/Tactical Steel and are holding under a minute you're good to go, and if you never even think about this stuff it will never matter. You can theorize whatever you want, but Boyer and most of the champion bench rest guys did it by trial and error, and they do so many operations they only do the things that matter.
QED as far as I'm concerned.
Boyer says polishing the inside of the necks does nothing. Believe whomever you want to believe.
To be fair, he said. "It didn't help at all." That can be taken as, it did nothing or it did bad things. To my understanding the coating on most brass is something that comes from the final tumbling process. i can't really seem to find anything about it anywhere. So I can't back it up. The only thing I could find was that article about the peterson brass.
I'm glad you took my post at face value. I was afraid you were going to think I was attacking you, which I was not.
There is a lot of opinion, some experience, and not a ton of evidence. To me this thread is almost as advanced as it goes in hand loading, because we're talking about the smallest of the smallest variations. When you're talking about environmental factors being a much bigger part of the cartridges (rather than the shooting) you know you're in the minutia of the weeds.
There is a lot of opinion, some experience, and not a ton of evidence. To me this thread is almost as advanced as it goes in hand loading, because we're talking about the smallest of the smallest variations. When you're talking about environmental factors being a much bigger part of the cartridges (rather than the shooting) you know you're in the minutia of the weeds.
I wasnt promoting the results, i thought that was clear with pointing out the small data set. I think they are smaller than needed to form any reasonable conclusion, I was just stating he compared one variable at a time. Powder charge is irrelevant, if its the same for both tests and all other components are the same, it will just lower the confidence % of the accuracy of the test, doesnt mean its not constrained. In this case with the data so small it could have been a few anomalies that gave the separation the size it is between the two groups, we dont know. I dont know if all other manufactures use a coating but I know in 2011 (one of their competitors) did not as I was on an engineering team trying to improve upon brass forming die consistency at which point no coatings were part of the manufacturing procedure, so to say all companies use a coating (atleast internal) is an assumption.
The OP did a test where clean necks outperformed dirty necks. The problem is that in both cases the ammo was loaded incorrectly. New brass is coated with wax, or at least it should be. If you buy military ammo you’ll notice this right away. The wax is laid on there thick. Commercial cases are also waxed prior to loading. It’s thete, trust me.
Dry tumbled cases shoot well, yes they do. But these cases are dirty on the inside. But on top of the dirt there is a layer of media dust and or wax or some sort of polish additive like Nufinish. Seating against raw carbon is hard as the OP proved. Raw carbon is not the same thing as dry lube. The latter is an actual lube. Raw carbon is a product of combustion.
To do this test right one must compare correctly processed brass to wet tumbled raw unlubed brass. Correctly processed means tumbled in treated media or stainless with dry lubed necks, waxed or graphited.
Dry tumbled cases shoot well, yes they do. But these cases are dirty on the inside. But on top of the dirt there is a layer of media dust and or wax or some sort of polish additive like Nufinish. Seating against raw carbon is hard as the OP proved. Raw carbon is not the same thing as dry lube. The latter is an actual lube. Raw carbon is a product of combustion.
To do this test right one must compare correctly processed brass to wet tumbled raw unlubed brass. Correctly processed means tumbled in treated media or stainless with dry lubed necks, waxed or graphited.
Is this why dry patching the loose the carbon out of barrels between range trips helps maintain cold bore POI? Kind of like brushing the carbon out of necks?
There was NO new cases used in my test. I use SS pins to clean my brass and was told that leaving the brass dirty is better (they never said anything about dry tumbling just clean the primer pockets and reload) so I tried both and those were my results. I used 10 cases that I cleaned and 10 cases I fired a few days earlier all loaded with the same/amount of powder and bullets. Even though a few think I'm trying to prove something to discredit others that is NOT the case. I never ever said one way or the other is better just posted what I found out for me, take it as you wish and do what works for you.
There were no new cases. Yes. I never said there were. What I’m saying is what you’re doing is incorrect. Don’t load into raw brass, like stainless tumbled. Don’t load into fired brass either, without first tumbling it in treated media.
I think the biggest issue is that different coating provides different bullet grip which will in turn alter its preferred load. Maybe going up .2 will cause one to be waaay better or adding .001 of additional neck tension etc.
Two different processes will not equal the same product so why would two different products have the same results down range? Do a proper load work up each way and see if the results stay the same.
That is of course why I’ve never done it myself and just find a load that works well in the way that I load and don’t really bother with experiments in case cleanliness. They get vibratory tumbled because I don’t have to be there focused on it and I don’t have to let them dry either. Least effort and labor.
Two different processes will not equal the same product so why would two different products have the same results down range? Do a proper load work up each way and see if the results stay the same.
That is of course why I’ve never done it myself and just find a load that works well in the way that I load and don’t really bother with experiments in case cleanliness. They get vibratory tumbled because I don’t have to be there focused on it and I don’t have to let them dry either. Least effort and labor.
I don’t know what dry patching does. I know people do that but I think it does nothing. I just leave the carbon in there and brush it out once in a while to prevent a buildup.
Thats always been my experience. I just have a rifle right now that shoots about an inch for the first 5-10, then it will tighten up and shoot one hole groups. Last night this thread got me thinking about loose carbon in the barrel being the same as what we brush out of the necks. I dry patched it for the first time, but haven't been back out with it yet.
Sometimes I think people (particularly precision rifle shooters) lose sight of why certain things are done in the first place.
Why do we clean brass? So that it won't mar/scratch the inside of the sizing die, and to a lesser extent the other reloading tools. If that's the reason why, why is anyone bothering with stainless pins? Why waste effort cleaning the inside of the case? Can anyone really offer definitive proof of benefit of doing so? Who gives a crap if brass isn't new-penny shiny so long as it's clean? I certainly don't.
I stopped using walnut media because it lasts a few runs before it's soiled with soot and leaves a film on every case as evidenced by my fingertips turning black after loading 100 rounds.
I now wet tumble with dish soap and lemishine WITHOUT pins. I do it before sizing and depriming and the cases are spotlessly clean and completely residue free throught the loading process. I don't worry about carbon in the primer pockets unless it looks bad in there. Makes no difference that I can measure in loaded ammo. To remove die lube, I dump all sized/deprimed cases in alcohol for about an hour, shake em around, and drain it off. Drying after washing in soap/water or rinsing in alcohol is 20 min at 250 F in an old toaster oven.
90% of the process time is hands off, my own direct labor input is minimal.
Why do we clean brass? So that it won't mar/scratch the inside of the sizing die, and to a lesser extent the other reloading tools. If that's the reason why, why is anyone bothering with stainless pins? Why waste effort cleaning the inside of the case? Can anyone really offer definitive proof of benefit of doing so? Who gives a crap if brass isn't new-penny shiny so long as it's clean? I certainly don't.
I stopped using walnut media because it lasts a few runs before it's soiled with soot and leaves a film on every case as evidenced by my fingertips turning black after loading 100 rounds.
I now wet tumble with dish soap and lemishine WITHOUT pins. I do it before sizing and depriming and the cases are spotlessly clean and completely residue free throught the loading process. I don't worry about carbon in the primer pockets unless it looks bad in there. Makes no difference that I can measure in loaded ammo. To remove die lube, I dump all sized/deprimed cases in alcohol for about an hour, shake em around, and drain it off. Drying after washing in soap/water or rinsing in alcohol is 20 min at 250 F in an old toaster oven.
90% of the process time is hands off, my own direct labor input is minimal.
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