This is a sort of sanity check. I recently bought an LMT MWSE rifle (308 caliber AR-10 type semiauto rifle, with 16 inch chromelined barrel). I want to make ammunition far superior in consistency than what I could make on my existing Dillon 650 progressive machine (which I am selling). Speed and volume are not the targets. Accuracy, consistency, and the ability to “feel” every step of every cartridge are.
I have posted this question on 2 sites that I have come to really like, because they both have very knowledgeable and experienced members: Snipershide.com and SIGforum.com.
So, here we go . . .
The ammunition starting point is:
Sierra Matchking 175g bullet (because I want to be able to shoot 700 yards)
Lapua 308 cases (Bought 200 new, on sale)
Winchester large rifle primer
IMR 4895 powder (everyone says this powder absolutely will work as a starting point)
Here’s a listing of the tools I want to try using, most either here already, or on their way from Sinclair, Bruno’s, and Harrell’s:
Tumbler
Corn cob media
Polish for tumbling cases? (needed or just a pollutant on the cases?)
Case lubricant - Imperial Sizing Die Wax, applied by hand, not lube pad
Harrell Turret press (turret, so that once set ideally, dies will never be disturbed)
Shell holders (Redding #1 pn 11001)
Shell holders (Redding set of graduated competition shell holders – to use with sizing die to change or control sized case headspace, as needed, without disturbing die once set)
Redding pn 69100 decapping die
Redding pn 36155die set with:
Sizing die (Type S Match Full Length with titanium nitride coated bushing )
Seating die (Redding Competition Bullet Seating Die, with micrometer adjustment)
Redding titanium nitride sizing bushing, size = .336”,pn = 76336 . Bushing sized to make neck ID .003” under bullet diameter (.308” bullet + .155 case neck thickness x 2 - .003)
Redding carbide sizing button kit pn 49307
Sinclair lock ring pliers for Redding dies
Case trimming tool: Sinclair-Wilson Ultimate Stainless with stand & micrometer adjustment
Wilson carbide cutter for ss micro case trimmer
308 case holder for Wilson ss micro case trimmer - for new (unfired) cases
308 case holder for Wilson ss micro case trimmer for fired cases
Case holder clamp for Wilson ss micro case trimmer
Wilson handheld case mouth deburring tool (outside of neck)
Case mouth chamfering tool (inside of neck)
Case neck brush
No Expander die (instead controlling neck-to-bullet squeeze via .336 external bushing noted above)
Stoney Point Chamber-All Overall gauge to determine ideal case-base-to-bullet-ogive dimension
Hornady (Stoney Point Chamber-All) Bullet Comparator Body PLUS headspace bushing set (to measure headspace on fired cases and then reloaded cases)
308 bullet ogive gage insert for above
Hornady anvil base for above (make the comparator / headspace tools easier to use consistently)
Primer pocket cleaner
Primer pocket uniformer tool
Flash hole deburring, chamfering, uniforming tool - Sinclair
Priming tool - Sinclair PT-2000
Sinclair priming tool shell holder for 308
RCBS combo powder dispenser and digital scale
Case powder funnel - aluminum, for 308
Loading blocks
Cartridge case (50) x4
Wilson 308 cartridge case gage
Here’s my proposed process:
Determination of Ideal Base to Bullet Ogive
Purpose: Determine ideal base to bullet ogive dimension that places bullet .010" to .020" short of lands contact.
Use Stoney Point Chamber-All Overall gauge with 308 special threaded case to determine point of lands contact.
Use digital calipers + Stoney Point bullet comparator body + 308 bullet ogive gage insert + Hornady anvil base to determine base to ogive dimensions, when just touching lands.
Subtract 0.010" to 0.020" to get ideal starting base to bullet ogive dimension. Record.
Measure & record ideal OAL of cartridge.
Tools: Stoney Point Chamber-All Overall Gage, special threaded 308 case, digital calipers, Stoney Point bullet comparator body, 308 bullet ogive gage insert, anvil base
Case metrics
Purpose: Determine how firing in MY rifle has altered case dimensions, and use that information to set up case sizing & bullet seating to optimal dimensions for rifle accuracy and case life.
Take measurements on a good sized sampling of unfired & fired cases, where unfired cases match the brand & lot number of the fired ones (DONE)
Measure unfired cases: body diameter, OAL, outside neck diameter, inside neck diameter, neck wall thickness (reconcile to OD & ID measurements) , headspace, COAL.
Measure fired cases: body diameter, OAL, outside neck diameter, inside neck diameter, neck wall thickness (reconcile to OD & ID measurements) , headspace.
Calculate differences.
Weigh cases, & segregate by weight
Calculate & record ideal target dimensions for cases being loaded:
Case OD - just below shoulder .4549” (= fired case OD .4579 - .003")
Case OD - just above base .4687” (= fired case OD .4717 - .003')
Neck OD .336” (= .308 bullet dia + case neck wall thickness .155 x 2, - .003")
Headspace not yet done (= fired case headspace - .002" to .003")
Case OAL 2.008” (based on dimensions of unfired Lapua and Federal cases as delivered)
Cartridge OAL = Determined by previous operation, but expect to be somewhere near 2.800 (per posting thread suggestions & Federal GM actually measured. MAKE SURE IT WILL FIT IN P-MAGS!!)
Case weight range = not yet done
Tools: Digital caliper, digital micrometer, bullet comparator body, headspace bushing, anvil base, digital scale
Supplies: unfired cases, fired cases
Clean cases in tumbler
Tools: Tumbler
Supplies: Corn media
Inspect cases (any obvious defects, bulging, cracks, etc)
Lubricate case with Imperial die wax
Apply just enough, not enough to cause case denting.
Supplies: Imperial Die wax
Deprime
Deprime fired cases on station 1 of 308 turret of Harrell turret press.
Tools: Harrell press, 308 turret, Redding shellholders, Redding decapping die
Set sizing die
Install correct neck sizing bushing into Redding sizing die to get Neck OD = .308 bullet dia + case neck wall thickness x 2, - .003" = .336” bushing
Install +.010 graduated shellholder into press.
Install Redding sizing die into station 2 of 308 turret on Harrell press, bottoming it on the shellholder?
Size a fired case, measure, & change to lower height shellholder in sequence (i.e. +.080", +.060", +.040", and so on) to get to optimal dimensions previously determined.
Compare headspace. Case OD, neck OD, and case OAL to ideal dimensions previously determined, & determine how to handle deviations from ideal.
Repeat sizing an UNFIRED case. Note any differences, and determine how to handle.
Final tighten die & recheck.
Record correct graduated shellholder size!
Tools: Press, 308 turret, sizing die, neck sizing bushing, graduated shellholders, digital caliper, digital micrometer, bullet comparator body, headspace bushing, anvil base
Supplies: unfired AND fired cases
Size cases
Size cases to optimal dimensions via preset sizing die in station 2 of 308 turret, using correct previously determined graduated shellholder.
Tools: Previously set up 308 turret, press
Supplies: unfired or fired cases
Trim cases
Trim cases to optimal predetermined length = 2.008”
Tools: Wilson case trimmer, 308 insert (for "new" or "fired" cases, depending on what batch being trimmed)
Supplies: Sized cases (fired or unfired)
Case neck turning: No (NOT recommended for semiauto rifles – too much stretch upon firing)
Deburr case mouth (outside)
Deburr outside of case mouth, using Wilson hand deburring tool
Tools: Wilson hand deburring tool
Supplies: Trimmed cases
Chamfer case mouth (inside)
Chamfer case mouth (inside) (sometimes little or no chamfering needed for boattail bullets) using Wilson chamfering tool on Wilson trimmer
Tools: Wilson chamfering tool, Wilson trimmer
Supplies: Trimmed cases
Remove lubricant from cases
Supplies: Lubed cases, paper toweling
Clean primer pockets
Tool: Primer pocket cleaner
Uniform primer pockets
Tool: Primer pocket uniformer tool
Flash hole perfecting
Tool: Flash hole deburring, chamfering, uniforming tool
Reweigh cases
Reweigh cases after all metal removing operations have been completed, & resegregate if necessary
Tools: digital scale
Priming
Prime case– seat primers to .003” to .008” below case head. 006” is ideal for semiauto
Tools: Sinclair priming tool, large rifle primer insert
Set target bullet velocity
Set targeted bullet velocity based on loading manual & replicating Federal GM 175g ballistics
Add powder
Weigh & add powder (based on loading manual, based on bullet weight & type, and on targeted velocity)
Current bullet weight & type = 175g Sierra Matchking boattail
Current muzzle velocity target = ? From ?? Inch barrel
Current powder = IMR 4895
Current target powder weight (grains) = safe starting point much lower than 43.5?
Sort bullets
Sort bullets by weight & dimensions:
Segregate bullets by weight
Segregate bullets by base to ogive dimension
Tools: digital scale, digital calipers, bullet comparator, anvil base
Supplies: Bullets
Seat bullets
Use Redding micrometer seating die in station 3 of Harrell turret press.
Seat bullet - to correct OAL : Bullet .010” to .020” short of rifling for semiauto rifle, AND fit into magazine with LONGEST bullets (bullet OAL often varies by .015 to .020”)
Pre-determined ideal case base to bullet ogive = ? (determine via earlier operation)
Set Redding micrometer seating die to attain ideal case base to bullet ogive dimension.
Tools: Press, seating die in station 3, Stoney Point bullet comparator, 308 bullet ogive insert, anvil base
Supplies: sized & trimmed & perfected cases, bullets
Crimp bullet NO! Use neck tension alone, via bushing in die, with sized neck ID = .003” smaller than bullet diameter
Inspection, metrics, recordkeeping
Check to ensure that each completed cartridge fits properly within Wilson 308 cartridge gage.
Check to ensure that each completed cartridge has correct headspace per Stoney Point headspace bushing.
Check to ensure that each completed cartridge has correct case base to bullet ogive dimension per Stoney Point bullet comparator.
Measure case body OD.
Measure neck OD.
Complete Ammunition Batch Data Form
Tools: Digital caliper, digital micrometer, Stoney Point bullet comparator, headspace bushing, anvil base
Supplies: Completed cartridges, batch data form
Box
Insert completed inspected cartridges into ammunition boxes.
Tools: None
Supplies: Boxes, completed inspected cartridges
Label
Complete a label for each box of ammunition. Label contents:
Date
Caliber
Bullet
Process ID
Batch ID
So, have I got this right?
Any errors?
Any omissions?
Any suggested improvements?
Please post your advice . . .
Jim G
I have posted this question on 2 sites that I have come to really like, because they both have very knowledgeable and experienced members: Snipershide.com and SIGforum.com.
So, here we go . . .
The ammunition starting point is:
Sierra Matchking 175g bullet (because I want to be able to shoot 700 yards)
Lapua 308 cases (Bought 200 new, on sale)
Winchester large rifle primer
IMR 4895 powder (everyone says this powder absolutely will work as a starting point)
Here’s a listing of the tools I want to try using, most either here already, or on their way from Sinclair, Bruno’s, and Harrell’s:
Tumbler
Corn cob media
Polish for tumbling cases? (needed or just a pollutant on the cases?)
Case lubricant - Imperial Sizing Die Wax, applied by hand, not lube pad
Harrell Turret press (turret, so that once set ideally, dies will never be disturbed)
Shell holders (Redding #1 pn 11001)
Shell holders (Redding set of graduated competition shell holders – to use with sizing die to change or control sized case headspace, as needed, without disturbing die once set)
Redding pn 69100 decapping die
Redding pn 36155die set with:
Sizing die (Type S Match Full Length with titanium nitride coated bushing )
Seating die (Redding Competition Bullet Seating Die, with micrometer adjustment)
Redding titanium nitride sizing bushing, size = .336”,pn = 76336 . Bushing sized to make neck ID .003” under bullet diameter (.308” bullet + .155 case neck thickness x 2 - .003)
Redding carbide sizing button kit pn 49307
Sinclair lock ring pliers for Redding dies
Case trimming tool: Sinclair-Wilson Ultimate Stainless with stand & micrometer adjustment
Wilson carbide cutter for ss micro case trimmer
308 case holder for Wilson ss micro case trimmer - for new (unfired) cases
308 case holder for Wilson ss micro case trimmer for fired cases
Case holder clamp for Wilson ss micro case trimmer
Wilson handheld case mouth deburring tool (outside of neck)
Case mouth chamfering tool (inside of neck)
Case neck brush
No Expander die (instead controlling neck-to-bullet squeeze via .336 external bushing noted above)
Stoney Point Chamber-All Overall gauge to determine ideal case-base-to-bullet-ogive dimension
Hornady (Stoney Point Chamber-All) Bullet Comparator Body PLUS headspace bushing set (to measure headspace on fired cases and then reloaded cases)
308 bullet ogive gage insert for above
Hornady anvil base for above (make the comparator / headspace tools easier to use consistently)
Primer pocket cleaner
Primer pocket uniformer tool
Flash hole deburring, chamfering, uniforming tool - Sinclair
Priming tool - Sinclair PT-2000
Sinclair priming tool shell holder for 308
RCBS combo powder dispenser and digital scale
Case powder funnel - aluminum, for 308
Loading blocks
Cartridge case (50) x4
Wilson 308 cartridge case gage
Here’s my proposed process:
Determination of Ideal Base to Bullet Ogive
Purpose: Determine ideal base to bullet ogive dimension that places bullet .010" to .020" short of lands contact.
Use Stoney Point Chamber-All Overall gauge with 308 special threaded case to determine point of lands contact.
Use digital calipers + Stoney Point bullet comparator body + 308 bullet ogive gage insert + Hornady anvil base to determine base to ogive dimensions, when just touching lands.
Subtract 0.010" to 0.020" to get ideal starting base to bullet ogive dimension. Record.
Measure & record ideal OAL of cartridge.
Tools: Stoney Point Chamber-All Overall Gage, special threaded 308 case, digital calipers, Stoney Point bullet comparator body, 308 bullet ogive gage insert, anvil base
Case metrics
Purpose: Determine how firing in MY rifle has altered case dimensions, and use that information to set up case sizing & bullet seating to optimal dimensions for rifle accuracy and case life.
Take measurements on a good sized sampling of unfired & fired cases, where unfired cases match the brand & lot number of the fired ones (DONE)
Measure unfired cases: body diameter, OAL, outside neck diameter, inside neck diameter, neck wall thickness (reconcile to OD & ID measurements) , headspace, COAL.
Measure fired cases: body diameter, OAL, outside neck diameter, inside neck diameter, neck wall thickness (reconcile to OD & ID measurements) , headspace.
Calculate differences.
Weigh cases, & segregate by weight
Calculate & record ideal target dimensions for cases being loaded:
Case OD - just below shoulder .4549” (= fired case OD .4579 - .003")
Case OD - just above base .4687” (= fired case OD .4717 - .003')
Neck OD .336” (= .308 bullet dia + case neck wall thickness .155 x 2, - .003")
Headspace not yet done (= fired case headspace - .002" to .003")
Case OAL 2.008” (based on dimensions of unfired Lapua and Federal cases as delivered)
Cartridge OAL = Determined by previous operation, but expect to be somewhere near 2.800 (per posting thread suggestions & Federal GM actually measured. MAKE SURE IT WILL FIT IN P-MAGS!!)
Case weight range = not yet done
Tools: Digital caliper, digital micrometer, bullet comparator body, headspace bushing, anvil base, digital scale
Supplies: unfired cases, fired cases
Clean cases in tumbler
Tools: Tumbler
Supplies: Corn media
Inspect cases (any obvious defects, bulging, cracks, etc)
Lubricate case with Imperial die wax
Apply just enough, not enough to cause case denting.
Supplies: Imperial Die wax
Deprime
Deprime fired cases on station 1 of 308 turret of Harrell turret press.
Tools: Harrell press, 308 turret, Redding shellholders, Redding decapping die
Set sizing die
Install correct neck sizing bushing into Redding sizing die to get Neck OD = .308 bullet dia + case neck wall thickness x 2, - .003" = .336” bushing
Install +.010 graduated shellholder into press.
Install Redding sizing die into station 2 of 308 turret on Harrell press, bottoming it on the shellholder?
Size a fired case, measure, & change to lower height shellholder in sequence (i.e. +.080", +.060", +.040", and so on) to get to optimal dimensions previously determined.
Compare headspace. Case OD, neck OD, and case OAL to ideal dimensions previously determined, & determine how to handle deviations from ideal.
Repeat sizing an UNFIRED case. Note any differences, and determine how to handle.
Final tighten die & recheck.
Record correct graduated shellholder size!
Tools: Press, 308 turret, sizing die, neck sizing bushing, graduated shellholders, digital caliper, digital micrometer, bullet comparator body, headspace bushing, anvil base
Supplies: unfired AND fired cases
Size cases
Size cases to optimal dimensions via preset sizing die in station 2 of 308 turret, using correct previously determined graduated shellholder.
Tools: Previously set up 308 turret, press
Supplies: unfired or fired cases
Trim cases
Trim cases to optimal predetermined length = 2.008”
Tools: Wilson case trimmer, 308 insert (for "new" or "fired" cases, depending on what batch being trimmed)
Supplies: Sized cases (fired or unfired)
Case neck turning: No (NOT recommended for semiauto rifles – too much stretch upon firing)
Deburr case mouth (outside)
Deburr outside of case mouth, using Wilson hand deburring tool
Tools: Wilson hand deburring tool
Supplies: Trimmed cases
Chamfer case mouth (inside)
Chamfer case mouth (inside) (sometimes little or no chamfering needed for boattail bullets) using Wilson chamfering tool on Wilson trimmer
Tools: Wilson chamfering tool, Wilson trimmer
Supplies: Trimmed cases
Remove lubricant from cases
Supplies: Lubed cases, paper toweling
Clean primer pockets
Tool: Primer pocket cleaner
Uniform primer pockets
Tool: Primer pocket uniformer tool
Flash hole perfecting
Tool: Flash hole deburring, chamfering, uniforming tool
Reweigh cases
Reweigh cases after all metal removing operations have been completed, & resegregate if necessary
Tools: digital scale
Priming
Prime case– seat primers to .003” to .008” below case head. 006” is ideal for semiauto
Tools: Sinclair priming tool, large rifle primer insert
Set target bullet velocity
Set targeted bullet velocity based on loading manual & replicating Federal GM 175g ballistics
Add powder
Weigh & add powder (based on loading manual, based on bullet weight & type, and on targeted velocity)
Current bullet weight & type = 175g Sierra Matchking boattail
Current muzzle velocity target = ? From ?? Inch barrel
Current powder = IMR 4895
Current target powder weight (grains) = safe starting point much lower than 43.5?
Sort bullets
Sort bullets by weight & dimensions:
Segregate bullets by weight
Segregate bullets by base to ogive dimension
Tools: digital scale, digital calipers, bullet comparator, anvil base
Supplies: Bullets
Seat bullets
Use Redding micrometer seating die in station 3 of Harrell turret press.
Seat bullet - to correct OAL : Bullet .010” to .020” short of rifling for semiauto rifle, AND fit into magazine with LONGEST bullets (bullet OAL often varies by .015 to .020”)
Pre-determined ideal case base to bullet ogive = ? (determine via earlier operation)
Set Redding micrometer seating die to attain ideal case base to bullet ogive dimension.
Tools: Press, seating die in station 3, Stoney Point bullet comparator, 308 bullet ogive insert, anvil base
Supplies: sized & trimmed & perfected cases, bullets
Crimp bullet NO! Use neck tension alone, via bushing in die, with sized neck ID = .003” smaller than bullet diameter
Inspection, metrics, recordkeeping
Check to ensure that each completed cartridge fits properly within Wilson 308 cartridge gage.
Check to ensure that each completed cartridge has correct headspace per Stoney Point headspace bushing.
Check to ensure that each completed cartridge has correct case base to bullet ogive dimension per Stoney Point bullet comparator.
Measure case body OD.
Measure neck OD.
Complete Ammunition Batch Data Form
Tools: Digital caliper, digital micrometer, Stoney Point bullet comparator, headspace bushing, anvil base
Supplies: Completed cartridges, batch data form
Box
Insert completed inspected cartridges into ammunition boxes.
Tools: None
Supplies: Boxes, completed inspected cartridges
Label
Complete a label for each box of ammunition. Label contents:
Date
Caliber
Bullet
Process ID
Batch ID
So, have I got this right?
Any errors?
Any omissions?
Any suggested improvements?
Please post your advice . . .
Jim G