And the army wonders

Zoomie

Praefectus castrorum
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Minuteman
Oct 4, 2010
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Behind the Hesco
Yes, this way we breed out independent thinking in tough situations and replace it with dependence on your teammates. Maybe when it hits, you can text them for emotional support.

I have zero issue with team building in the proper context and setting. At the point you're transitioning from CivilianLand ain't the time to do it.
 

Bolo

Apprentice of Disaster
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Minuteman
The house of cards started to collapse the day Fort Benning stopped using cattle cars and "surprise" ruck marches to transport troops to the training areas.
This is a logical stop on the way to complete pussification. I saw it coming 5 years ago and bounced the day I got my 20-year letter.
Shit, one of my Drills even confided in me that most of the Round Browns were half drunk before the shark attack.. it's the only way some of 'em could get that mean. But it was necessary to break down the concept of self, forcing you to rely on team... and hold each other individually accountable. Made it lot easier for an NCO to be a leader instead of having to be the squad nanny.
 

Doc68

Almost a doctor
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  • Feb 17, 2014
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    But war is kind! We need safe spaces and time out when we are at war!
    This is another reason why the discipline in the army has almost but disappeared. I need a medic to execute in war, not ask "why" . They have to be able to do that in a garrison environment, if not then they will never be able to do it while getting shot at.


    Doc
     
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    Sean the Nailer

    Sergeant
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  • May 20, 2006
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    Ah, but the Navy goes in first to clear the landing site of mines and other obstacles and then get set up to photograph the Marines when they come in.
    Ok, I'm headin' for cover. :D
    Next, you're going to say that it's the Air Force that goes in first, that way the captains of the ships know which direction to drive them boats. So as to actually get to where they're supposed to be.

    So the question is then, who shows the Air Force which direction to fly, and how?

    ;)
     

    10ring'r

    Retired U.S.A.F. & Corrections
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    This is the F'n problem with the Mil., and society in general, It's all about "feels" now. I remember back in my B.T. days, listening to a female TI, tell the females during PT, "I want to hear 40 Pussies, pushing air, when you come up from those push-ups!". I about spit my teeth, while us guys were doing our PT. I never, in my life, ever heard a girl or woman for that matter, talk like that. Our F'n society is sooooo F'n pussified. F'n tv anymore, is nothing but, stay-at-home daddies, Yoga daddies, Go get your latte daddies, I mean, just F! What happened to the Marlboro men, Cowboys, and don't give me any shit about "Broke Dick Mountain" boys, either! We, the real men of the world, are just F'd! Mac:rolleyes:
    eta: The purpose of our Militaries are to: 1) Kill the enemy and 2) Win wars.
     
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    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
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  • Nov 6, 2011
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    Nothing wrong with tough training.

    Part of the problem is people are now considered to be children into there 30s.

    Been happening for awhile.

    Guessing the mil is getting flack from weak kids/parents for forcing their cherubs into adulthood.

    I see it in my own kids, they have no where near the autonomy/capabilities I enjoyed as a kid. Simple stuff I did - getting on public transportation going to a Red Sox game, riding a bike down a busy road to dumpster dive at the Mall, staying out late at night - none of it monitored or prohibited by my parents. My kids cant/wont do that shit.

    Im guessing the mil is doing what it can with what they are given and understanding "the war will do the job we were prevented doing".

    It will be ugly as our enemies children have not grown in an aura of fantasy.
     

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
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  • Nov 6, 2011
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    Say what we will about mil.....

    "The children" have been getting it done for twenty years.

    I think a lot of that success is due seasoned troops that taught them the way it is.

    As retirements happen and we transition away from the wars Im concerned its going to be exactly the time we need tough boot camp.

    If you have ever read some pre WWII, pre VN experiences of boot camp it seems different.

    Boots were treated more like adults, less supervision.

    Guessing the Depression imbued most with wisdom beyond their years.

    The training in garrison seemed way more legit - field problems vs PMing hummers in the motor pool.

    Boots were held to accountability - getting written up wasnt a career killer it was expected you would fuck up, you also had to take responsibility for it.

    People failed and recovered - if they didnt than they got the BCD.

    Guess we are lucky to live in our land of excess that allows us to be soft yet at the same time unwilling to accept screw ups.
     
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    Sniperwannabee

    CWO
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  • Feb 14, 2017
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    all over see below:
    Say what we will about mil.....

    "The children" have been getting it done for twenty years.

    I think a lot of that success is due seasoned troops that taught them the way it is.

    As retirements happen and we transition away from the wars Im concerned its going to be exactly the time we need tough boot camp.

    If you have ever read some pre WWII, pre VN experiences of boot camp it seems different.

    Boots were treated more like adults, less supervision.

    Guessing the Depression imbued most with wisdom beyond their years.

    The training in garrison seemed way more legit - field problems vs PMing hummers in the motor pool.

    Boots were held to accountability - getting written up wasnt a career killer it was expected you would fuck up, you also had to take responsibility for it.

    People failed and recovered - if they didnt than they got the BCD.

    Guess we are lucky to live in our land of excess that allows us to be soft yet at the same time unwilling to accept screw ups.
    I would argue that the current generation that’s been fighting since 9/11 is better than the “greatest generation” since it’s been going on longer and all volunteered
     
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    10ring'r

    Retired U.S.A.F. & Corrections
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    I would love to go to Lackland (I know, pussy "fly boys":ROFLMAO:) and watch the newbie's go thru their training. I would almost bet, that TI's, couldn't scream "shit", if they had a mouthful. Also, I bet they can't touch, slap, kick, a recruit either. Even in the 70's, TI's could manhandle you, if you got stupid and I have stories about that. They squared-away, whatever the ol 'man didn't take care of before you got there. Mac
     

    EddieNFL

    SMSgt
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    Jan 11, 2006
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    Next, you're going to say that it's the Air Force that goes in first, that way the captains of the ships know which direction to drive them boats. So as to actually get to where they're supposed to be.

    So the question is then, who shows the Air Force which direction to fly, and how?

    ;)
    First gulf war, AF MH53 Pavelows lead army Apaches into Iraq to destroy radar sites before bombers and fast movers went in. AFA who directs the pilots...lots of folks on the ground...mostly enlisted. Officers attend meetings and sign stuff.
     

    sleeplz

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  • May 12, 2017
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    First gulf war, AF MH53 Pavelows lead army Apaches into Iraq to destroy radar sites before bombers and fast movers went in. AFA who directs the pilots...lots of folks on the ground...mostly enlisted. Officers attend meetings and sign stuff.
    Mostly enlisted...
    1600552193861.png
     

    Snuby642

    Two Star General
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  • Feb 11, 2017
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    By the mid 70's USAF basic at Lackland was disappointingly soft.

    My mother with a frying pan scared me more.

    I was luckily in good shape not a big athlete or anything but wirery.

    One day the di asked if anyone wanted to kick his ass, I stepped forward. He asked why and I told him I was boared and the rest of the guys were too big a pussies to do it. He put me back in line.

    A few days later he stopped at my bunk, called every one to see it and said it was perfect.

    He then proceeded to flip it over and told everyone to watch me redo it.

    He later told me the look on my face was priceless .

    Would hate too see what it looks like now.
     

    EddieNFL

    SMSgt
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    Jan 11, 2006
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    By the mid 70's USAF basic at Lackland was disappointingly soft.

    My mother with a frying pan scared me more.

    I was luckily in good shape not a big athlete or anything but wirery.

    One day the di asked if anyone wanted to kick his ass, I stepped forward. He asked why and I told him I was boared and the rest of the guys were too big a pussies to do it. He put me back in line.

    A few days later he stopped at my bunk, called every one to see it and said it was perfect.

    He then proceeded to flip it over and told everyone to watch me redo it.

    He later told me the look on my face was priceless .

    Would hate too see what it looks like now.
    '77...felt the same, but I grew up with a former army DI from the '50s, so...
     

    Matt_KJ

    Gunny Sergeant
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    May 27, 2019
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    The Green Mountain State
    In addition to everything else, another problem is the advancements in society and what is “normal”. One example is fist fights. It’s almost non-existent in today’s culture. Where as two or three decades ago it was acceptable to punch someone in face.

    Now you want that person to establish a warrior culture of hunting men down and visiting them in the middle of the night with 60+ lbs of kit and a gun? Yeah, it’s not happening. The kid today would rather be handed a controller and a drone and say “hey! Look, there they are! Can we like call for fire or something?”

    It’s pathetic and changing the standards by the day...
     

    Bolo

    Apprentice of Disaster
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    Minuteman
    I think a lot of that success is due seasoned troops that taught them the way it is.

    As retirements happen and we transition away from the wars Im concerned its going to be exactly the time we need tough boot camp.
    I agree and and @Doc68's comment is on target. Many of the NCOs leaving are the combat-hardened ones.
    Fuck the "smart book" learnin'... I learned fieldcraft from a few Nam, Desert Storm and Just Cause vets. I passed on every bit of knowledge I gained to the units replacing us in theater and trained my new troops to the realities of real world combat.

    Nothing TRADOC can cook up could have replaced that knowledge.

    I fear the hard lessons we learned in Iraq and Afghanistan will soon be lost, and the new crop of troops coming up the ranks lack the skills and mental toughness to adapt and overcome. I hope I'm wrong.
     
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    Matt_KJ

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    May 27, 2019
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    I agree and and @Doc68's comment is on target. Many of the NCOs leaving are the combat-hardened ones.
    Fuck the "smart book" learnin'... I learned fieldcraft from a few Nam, Desert Storm and Just Cause vets. I passed on every bit of knowledge I gained to the units replacing us in theater and trained my new troops to the realities of real world combat.

    Nothing TRADOC can cook up could have replaced that knowledge.

    I fear the hard lessons we learned in Iraq and Afghanistan will soon be lost, and the new crop of troops coming up the ranks lack the skills and mental toughness to adapt and overcome. I hope I'm wrong.
    Unfortunately, you are not wrong. It’s being lost in translation due to the large gap between the experienced and the not experienced.

    It’s almost to a point where there’s chatter of cutting things out of training due to lack of realistic knowledge and experience...
     

    army_eod

    Retired Army
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    Apr 20, 2008
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    army_eod

    Retired Army
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    Apr 20, 2008
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    That is correct Doc. This is the pussified left-wing commie army.
     

    Powder_Burns

    Shoutbox Veteran
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  • May 4, 2009
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    102 years ago the battle of st mihiel had just wrapped up, where approximately 550,000 us troops fought the germans with springfield rifles in 30-06 from trenches while being shelled and gassed. A lot has changed since then. 🤷‍♂️
     
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    skipjack

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    Feb 28, 2013
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    Hold up they got rid of the cattle cars? That’s bullshit. Those where the best of times being crammed in those. I have heard enough stories from guys from the last ten to twelve years to know the army is a far cry from what it used to be.
     

    sleeplz

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  • May 12, 2017
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    Hold up they got rid of the cattle cars? That’s bullshit. Those where the best of times being crammed in those. I have heard enough stories from guys from the last ten to twelve years to know the army is a far cry from what it used to be.
    Nah, they still have them. Just use it less cause their breaking down. People want modernization and finding a better way to do things but when changes are made, butts are hurt. I guarantee no one in this group likes it when their boss yells and berates them at their job, but their fine with thinking it makes other organizations "tougher".

    Not sure if anyone in here has been through any tough selection, but yelling does nothing. Shouting is also nowhere similar to combat.

    And breaking people down to build them up; if you think this is a real thing, you're part of the institutional inbreeding.
     

    pmclaine

    Gunny Sergeant
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  • Nov 6, 2011
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    I would argue that the current generation that’s been fighting since 9/11 is better than the “greatest generation” since it’s been going on longer and all volunteered
    And they were sent back again.....and again.......and again........

    I feel like Bush and Obama's intention was what that cunt on the plane verbalized.
     
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