And the army wonders

Doc68

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Say what we will about mil.....

"The children" have been getting it done for twenty years.

I think a lot of that success is due seasoned troops that taught them the way it is.

As retirements happen and we transition away from the wars Im concerned its going to be exactly the time we need tough boot camp.

If you have ever read some pre WWII, pre VN experiences of boot camp it seems different.

Boots were treated more like adults, less supervision.

Guessing the Depression imbued most with wisdom beyond their years.

The training in garrison seemed way more legit - field problems vs PMing hummers in the motor pool.

Boots were held to accountability - getting written up wasnt a career killer it was expected you would fuck up, you also had to take responsibility for it.

People failed and recovered - if they didnt than they got the BCD.

Guess we are lucky to live in our land of excess that allows us to be soft yet at the same time unwilling to accept screw ups.
Problem is here that the Army sends everyone who has "enough" time in rank to the promotion board. Whether they are ready to be a leader or not. I'm not talking about the ones who just haven't had an opportunity to lead yet, I'm talking about the ones who have no business leading soldiers.

Yes, out time in the field is almost non-existent unless you are going to NTC, JRTC or white sands. We spend all day monday PMCSing vehicles that never get run to see the actual problems with them. They get turned on for 10-15min and then turned back off to sit there for a week.

I've gotten in trouble for having my soldiers actually take the vehicles on the road and do little land nav shit/finding points via 10 digit grid locations.

Then a lot more time is spent doing EO, SHARP, OPSEC, and all these other BS computer training that's a yearly training, but somehow we do it 10 times a year.

I plead and beg when another unit is holding a live tissue lab to get some of my medics in them. It will be their only opportunity to work on a live "patient" with the added stress before they deploy.

So I think it's a culmination of things that leads to all this. Most of the E6-E7 i talk to have the same complaint, they are tired of war at this point. Back to back to back combat deployments wears on you mentally and physically, as yall know from my recent surgery. Yes we all signed the proverbial dotted line, but we need a break.

Doc
 

Doc68

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Back in 2008-2010 timeframe, they appointed a black female command Sergeant Major as head of TRADOC(training command) for the Army. She had been in for 23 years at that point and she had not once deployed. Now to put this into perspective, that brings her entrance into the army back in 1984-1986. That means from before the first gulf war to 2010 she had never been to war. I got out of AIT in 25 OCT 2007 and went to iraq in May of 2008 for 15 months. Let that sit in for a minute......

Doc
 

Zoomie

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First gulf war, AF MH53 Pavelows lead army Apaches into Iraq to destroy radar sites before bombers and fast movers went in. AFA who directs the pilots...lots of folks on the ground...mostly enlisted. Officers attend meetings and sign stuff.
To be fair, Navy was also firing BGM-109's and there were F-4g's with HARM's. But the Pavelows did fly balls to the wall in front of the AH-64's. AF also did get their first ATA kill with an F-15 that was flying CAP for the F-117's and B2's.
 

EddieNFL

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To be fair, Navy was also firing BGM-109's and there were F-4g's with HARM's. But the Pavelows did fly balls to the wall in front of the AH-64's. AF also did get their first ATA kill with an F-15 that was flying CAP for the F-117's and B2's.
If my memory is correct, the (then) 58th TFS accounted for half of the ATA kills.
 

ChadChadson

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Everyone always complains about how soft the military has gotten without taking into account that in WW2, VERY few soldiers shot to kill, a bit more did in Vietnam, and now about 95-99% of soldiers do. Knew a super squared away dude that was a heat casualty at the shark attack at Benning at the peak of Summer years ago. Nothing in the article mentions that this is a permanent change- it’s just simply preserving Uncle Sam’s property until it can sling lead. Can’t imagine the amount of people that would stroke out wearing masks in the Georgia heat, may as well bring them into the bays and mop the floor with air conditioned sweat.

If you haven’t seen the wizard as you slowly collapse from exhaustion despite utter determination, you won’t know what i’m talking about. But once you do go down, you can be non-deployable- preventing that is worth the perceived pussification from a warfighter’s standpoint.
 
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308pirate

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Everyone always complains about how soft the military has gotten without taking into account that in WW2, VERY few soldiers shot to kill, a bit more did in Vietnam, and now about 95-99% of soldiers do. Knew a super squared away dude that was a heat casualty at the shark attack at Benning at the peak of Summer years ago. Nothing in the article mentions that this is a permanent change- it’s just simply preserving Uncle Sam’s property until it can sling lead. Can’t imagine the amount of people that would stroke out wearing masks in the Georgia heat, may as well bring them into the bays and mop the floor with air conditioned sweat.

If you haven’t seen the wizard as you slowly collapse from exhaustion despite utter determination, you won’t know what i’m talking about. But once you do go down, you can be non-deployable- preventing that is worth the perceived pussification from a warfighter’s standpoint.
Does anyone who know what the fuck is he talking about?
 
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Snuby642

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It is a wonder how the hell our troups manage to still preform to thier standards these days.

Evedently field training still works

I find it disappointing that our troups are not given the best possible training and support from day one.

It's sad and needs corrected imidiatly.
The libtards need to go.
 

ChadChadson

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Does anyone who know what the fuck is he talking about?
The article in question- that basic training is becoming supposedly softer. If it was still ‘hardcore’ during covid everyone would get sick and become holdovers, or have heat stroke due to the need to wear masks during the first smoke session of BCT in the heat. It’s a better alternative than being a shitty leader and permanently disabling able bodied soldiers via heatstroke, no?

edit:regarding the wizard- it’s an altered state of being that you feel right while you can’t stand up, can’t breathe and are losing vision prior to having a full blown heat stroke and getting an icicle up the ass.
 
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Snuby642

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Did you want them to get all the way to some suck hole before you find out?

It used to be a way to weed out the weak.

Evidently they have failed to weed out the incompetent.
 

ChadChadson

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Did you want them to get all the way to some suck hole before you find out?

It used to be a way to weed out the weak.

Evidently they have failed to weed out the incompetent.
Yeah, i’d rather they get there than be chaptered out because leadership can’t figure out how not to permanently injure recruits. Basic training is literally just to assimilate people to a new lifestyle- it’s up to the soldier’s unit to square them away. And if they have balls, they will self select to SOF units where they can trip out in the woods for a few weeks/months to see if they have what it takes. For the typical grunt, a dance with a heat casualty isn’t necessary- if they’re a shitbag they’ll be guarding the gate anyway.

You have to get your raw materials in before you can begin milling and assembly.
 

308pirate

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Yeah, i’d rather they get there than be chaptered out because leadership can’t figure out how not to permanently injure recruits. Basic training is literally just to assimilate people to a new lifestyle- it’s up to the soldier’s unit to square them away. And if they have balls, they will self select to SOF units where they can trip out in the woods for a few weeks/months to see if they have what it takes. For the typical grunt, a dance with a heat casualty isn’t necessary- if they’re a shitbag they’ll be guarding the gate anyway.

You have to get your raw materials in before you can begin milling and assembly.
Tell us again about your military service? Sorry, I missed that part.
 
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EddieNFL

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No dog in this fight, but I have read that some experts (apply your own meaning to the word) consider today's infantryman better trained that the special units of WWII...and discuss.
 
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Doc68

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Does anyone who know what the fuck is he talking about?
I haven't a clue. I've come close to passing out on mission due to heat while dragging a patient or two.

However I've never seen a soldiers medical record where they are non-deployable due to prior heat injury.

The whole shoot to kill.....I'm confused about that. I think our soldiers killed a lot of nazis. That's kinda how we won WW2.

No one here said that not pushing yourself makes for bad soldiers. We are saying that safe spaces and no discipline does.

Doc
 
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Doc68

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Also finding your limit before deployment is also necessary. I'm not talking about permanently injuring people, but as a soldier you need to know your limits BEFORE you deploy. By sitting around on your cell phone instead of training ISNT how that is accomplished.

@308pirate , maybe he will chime in with it....maybe he has served or was a wash out. Who knows. I know, maybe he was a tier 1 operator SEAL sniper ranger ODA guy. The blackest of ops......🤣🤣🤣
 
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308pirate

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Also finding your limit before deployment is also necessary. I'm not talking about permanently injuring people, but as a soldier you need to know your limits BEFORE you deploy. By sitting around on your cell phone instead of training ISNT how that is accomplished.
I don't know shit about grunt shit cause I was in the Navy

What I do know is that if anyone in my division had said "it's too hot today to stand main feed pump watch" the chiefs would have been all over his shit in 1.0 seconds flat.

For those who don't know, main feed pump watch is the hottest operating station in a Nimitz-class carrier's main propulsion plant. And it is not only hot AF, it's also humid AF since you're tending a gang of steam turbine-driven high pressure pumps at the very bottom of the ship in a relatively small space.

Also going through the straits of Hormuz into and out of the Persian Gulf at general quarters in MOPP level 4 (which includes all ventilation secured throughout the ship except in a few key places) in the middle of summer was fun.
 

pmclaine

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No dog in this fight, but I have read that some experts (apply your own meaning to the word) consider today's infantryman better trained that the special units of WWII...and discuss.
In WWII our military was truly one of "Citizen Soldiers" built around a tiny core of "Regulars".

Today we have "professional soldiers".

We also have the luxury of a "huge" mil and "relative" peace.

I met a WWII vet and he told me he was a replacement that got to France in February of 1945.

Initial impression is "The war ended in May, how much action could he have seen"

Thing was replacements at that time were basically people sent to the front to quickly catch bullets that otherwise may have hit a seasoned veteran. Once the Army hit the Siegfried line the Germans were done with giving up captured territory and they invested in going Teutoburg Forest on the "invaders" 24/7. Our government was looking at lowering the age of the draft and by no means was it considered the war was wrapping up.

Soldiers in Britain building up for the invasion got a lot of training but once the killing started replacements were thrown in to the fray as bodies were required.

Marine engagements tended to be sharp and relatively short. They rotated units into different operations and between landings units rebuilt and did their best to train replacements to be ready for the next operation.

I think the greater difference was that they came from a civilian existence that was by no means pampered. Poverty did not provide LCD TVs as it does today. Childhood ended at about 13 and experiencing physical labor was not rare.

I think that likely bred more independence into the WWII recruit which was a help and a hinderence. Those recruits likely chaffed at military discipline but they also thought "Hey I get three squares and Ive done worse labor". The "rigors" of military life were not as "shocking" even if they were more Spartan than todays standards.

So training wise I can see where todays line soldier gets more training than a Ranger of WWII. We get the luxury of size, smaller wars, and time.

but......

I think the raw material that had to be trained was imbued with some life experiences prior to going into the mil that prepared them beforehand and did not have to be trained.

Ill also add a different mindset to what war meant.

We declared wars back than, we engaged the rest of the country in the effort, we went to end it quickly and we used the force required to get it done. We didnt wring our hands over what the rest of the world was thinking in regards to our actions. Today it seems we have accepted war as a constant activity, just regular background noise that people "volunteer" to do as their job and the government seems willing to keep them "employed" with the benefit of good contracts going to our mil suppliers in different political constituencies.

My thoughts are superficial and not entirely binding. If you actually read through history many of these same "issues" were brought up again and again in our history. At the start of WWII they thought of their recruits as soft and unable to win against the German and Japanese superman as well at times they argued rules of engagement, commie stuff, and appeasing our enemies.

In the USA what goes around comes around and in that there is hope that the ship will get through the storm and come upon calm seas again at some point.
 

EddieNFL

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In WWII our military was truly one of "Citizen Soldiers" built around a tiny core of "Regulars".

Today we have "professional soldiers".

We also have the luxury of a "huge" mil and "relative" peace.

I met a WWII vet and he told me he was a replacement that got to France in February of 1945.

Initial impression is "The war ended in May, how much action could he have seen"

Thing was replacements at that time were basically people sent to the front to quickly catch bullets that otherwise may have hit a seasoned veteran. Once the Army hit the Siegfried line the Germans were done with giving up captured territory and they invested in going Teutoburg Forest on the "invaders" 24/7. Our government was looking at lowering the age of the draft and by no means was it considered the war was wrapping up.

Soldiers in Britain building up for the invasion got a lot of training but once the killing started replacements were thrown in to the fray as bodies were required.

Marine engagements tended to be sharp and relatively short. They rotated units into different operations and between landings units rebuilt and did their best to train replacements to be ready for the next operation.

I think the greater difference was that they came from a civilian existence that was by no means pampered. Poverty did not provide LCD TVs as it does today. Childhood ended at about 13 and experiencing physical labor was not rare.

I think that likely bred more independence into the WWII recruit which was a help and a hinderence. Those recruits likely chaffed at military discipline but they also thought "Hey I get three squares and Ive done worse labor". The "rigors" of military life were not as "shocking" even if they were more Spartan than todays standards.

So training wise I can see where todays line soldier gets more training than a Ranger of WWII. We get the luxury of size, smaller wars, and time.

but......

I think the raw material that had to be trained was imbued with some life experiences prior to going into the mil that prepared them beforehand and did not have to be trained.

Ill also add a different mindset to what war meant.

We declared wars back than, we engaged the rest of the country in the effort, we went to end it quickly and we used the force required to get it done. We didnt wring our hands over what the rest of the world was thinking in regards to our actions. Today it seems we have accepted war as a constant activity, just regular background noise that people "volunteer" to do as their job and the government seems willing to keep them "employed" with the benefit of good contracts going to our mil suppliers in different political constituencies.

My thoughts are superficial and not entirely binding. If you actually read through history many of these same "issues" were brought up again and again in our history. At the start of WWII they thought of their recruits as soft and unable to win against the German and Japanese superman as well at times they argued rules of engagement, commie stuff, and appeasing our enemies.

In the USA what goes around comes around and in that there is hope that the ship will get through the storm and come upon calm seas again at some point.
We've read some of the same books.
 
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abn31c

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Huh, I'll say this. I rember running endless miles in the shitty sands Ft. Gordan, hours under the july sun and heat and humidity of the pt sand pit.
Day after day of reaching "total muscle fatigue" being so dizzy you had to concentrate to remain upright.
I thought it was "training ", and although my levels of fitness have declined over the years that training of knowing my limits serves me well to this day. I guess gone are the days of pullin a guy outta the gig pit and giving him a ice cold bag of saline, some time in the shade and carry on...🤷‍♂️
 

Culpeper

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I hate to say it but I was Air Force and went through Benning for jump school and laughed my way through it with the constant yelling, running, pushups. Coming from a completely different environment I found it comical and they zeroed in on the three of us. The irony being it made not one iota how I later performed my job attached to the 82nd. Just three weeks of mostly bullshit that could have been accomplished in half the time. I'm an old fuck. They were using C123's it was so long ago. Motherfuckers were getting injured and washed out over things that had nothing to do with parachuting. I'm just glad I didn't have to attend zero week. :)
 
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EddieNFL

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I hate to say it but I was Air Force and went through Benning for jump school and laughed my way through it with the constant yelling, running, pushups. Coming from a completely different environment I found it comical and they zeroed in on the three of us. The irony being it made not one iota how I later performed my job attached to the 82nd. Just three weeks of mostly bullshit that could have been accomplished in half the time. I'm an old fuck. They were using C123's it was so long ago. Motherfuckers were getting injured and washed out over things that had nothing to do with parachuting. I'm just glad I didn't have to attend zero week. :)
FAC?
 

abn31c

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I hate to say it but I was Air Force and went through Benning for jump school and laughed my way through it with the constant yelling, running, pushups. Coming from a completely different environment I found it comical and they zeroed in on the three of us. The irony being it made not one iota how I later performed my job attached to the 82nd. Just three weeks of mostly bullshit that could have been accomplished in half the time. I'm an old fuck. They were using C123's it was so long ago. Motherfuckers were getting injured and washed out over things that had nothing to do with parachuting. I'm just glad I didn't have to attend zero week. :)
Ya, I gained 10 pounds in AIRBORNE school..🤩
 

IrishWind

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Yeah, because if the Marines landed at Omaha, they would have used 1/3 the troop size. Secured the beach by lunch. St Lo and Caen by the end of the week. And when they found out there were a lot of lonely, horny, Parisian women who were sick of being called 'Frauline' Paris would have been free by the end of the following week.
 
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sleeplz

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Yeah, because if the Marines landed at Omaha, they would have used 1/3 the troop size. Secured the beach by lunch. St Lo and Caen by the end of the week. And when they found out there were a lot of lonely, horny, Parisian women who were sick of being called 'Frauline' Paris would have been free by the end of the following week.
I've also heard IF that one guy went to basic training, he'd punch a drill sgt. Ifs are for fools imaginary thoughts, while history is made by the bold.
 
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IrishWind

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I've also heard IF that one guy went to basic training, he'd punch a drill sgt. Ifs are for fools imaginary thoughts, while history is made by the bold.
So what was your MOS again?
 

IrishWind

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US Navy uses designators. But I'm guessing you did your three years in the S1 shop, or you are one of these three guys: 😁
 

cruiserweight

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Back in 2008-2010 timeframe, they appointed a black female command Sergeant Major as head of TRADOC(training command) for the Army. She had been in for 23 years at that point and she had not once deployed. Now to put this into perspective, that brings her entrance into the army back in 1984-1986. That means from before the first gulf war to 2010 she had never been to war. I got out of AIT in 25 OCT 2007 and went to iraq in May of 2008 for 15 months. Let that sit in for a minute......

Doc
To be fair, my first battalion sgm had only one deployment with regiment to Panama when I was in his battalion in 2009. He would brag about jumping into panama but everyone was really wondering how he dodged continuous deployments to Iraq/Afghanistan. Meanwhile some of us went to osut in 08 and deployed in 09-10, 2012- 2013 etc. Imagine being an 11b e-9 with only one deployment back in 1989.
 

Fig

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Say what we will about mil.....

"The children" have been getting it done for twenty years.

I think a lot of that success is due seasoned troops that taught them the way it is.

As retirements happen and we transition away from the wars Im concerned its going to be exactly the time we need tough boot camp.

If you have ever read some pre WWII, pre VN experiences of boot camp it seems different.

Boots were treated more like adults, less supervision.

Guessing the Depression imbued most with wisdom beyond their years.

The training in garrison seemed way more legit - field problems vs PMing hummers in the motor pool.

Boots were held to accountability - getting written up wasnt a career killer it was expected you would fuck up, you also had to take responsibility for it.

People failed and recovered - if they didnt than they got the BCD.

Guess we are lucky to live in our land of excess that allows us to be soft yet at the same time unwilling to accept screw ups.
There is a shitload of truth in this ^^^^^^
 
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IrishWind

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To be fair, my first battalion sgm had only one deployment with regiment to Panama when I was in his battalion in 2009. He would brag about jumping into panama but everyone was really wondering how he dodged continuous deployments to Iraq/Afghanistan. Meanwhile some of us went to osut in 08 and deployed in 09-10, 2012- 2013 etc. Imagine being an 11b e-9 with only one deployment back in 1989.
Just walk through the Pentagon before COVID hit. It is so hard to not laugh at Army officers O-4 and up walking around with out a combat patch. Especially during the Obama years when Iraq was still recent enough and Afghanistan going hot. As a Naval Officer I spent a year in Iraq and managed to collect 7 combat patches! And if it had mattered to me I could easily make a straight faced argument for 2-3 more. But it is insulting to see these patchless wonders wandering around when many Navy personnel were volun-told to go to Iraq/Afghanistan to do Army jobs when the Army has cadres of their own hiding in staff positions States side.

This article still has me ROFL-coptering!
 

sleeplz

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Just walk through the Pentagon before COVID hit. It is so hard to not laugh at Army officers O-4 and up walking around with out a combat patch. Especially during the Obama years when Iraq was still recent enough and Afghanistan going hot. As a Naval Officer I spent a year in Iraq and managed to collect 7 combat patches! And if it had mattered to me I could easily make a straight faced argument for 2-3 more. But it is insulting to see these patchless wonders wandering around when many Navy personnel were volun-told to go to Iraq/Afghanistan to do Army jobs when the Army has cadres of their own hiding in staff positions States side.

This article still has me ROFL-coptering!
Bro, your in the navy worrying about collecting combat patches. Im sure you measure your peen size when you look at your 7 combat patches for 1 year of deployment and arguing for 2 more. Shut up, do you job, and count bodies dropped.
 

IrishWind

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Your in the navy?🤣😂🤣 You just called yourself out.
And my 6th grade daughter just saw your post and laughed at the grammar mistakes you made.
Still never said your MOS. Or if you even made it to boot camp. So I'm guessing not on both.
As for the patches, you missed the point of what I was saying. But I can see you are jealous of my collection. A simple completement would have sufficed.
 

sleeplz

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And my 6th grade daughter just saw your post and laughed at the grammar mistakes you made.
Still never said your MOS. Or if you even made it to boot camp. So I'm guessing not on both.
As for the patches, you missed the point of what I was saying. But I can see you are jealous of my collection. A simple completement would have sufficed.
😂🤣😅 as expected from a navy guy. Having to bring in his daughter on internet forums.🤣 Your a fun guy. You never stated your mos as well, but thats none of my business. Seriously though, don't live your life worrying about patches. It's extremely petty, just worry about doing your job in your billet.
 

want2learn

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i know this is purely anecdotal but i had the privilege of touring and attending some lectures at the Balboa Military Hospital in San Diego....the men and women i met there sure looked pretty darn awesome to me.
 
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IrishWind

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Keeps making the same grammar errors. Fails miserably at reading comprehension. Immediately puffs out the chest when confronted with a joke. So which bro in the white sunglasses is you again?

If lowlight needs to see my DD-214, I can arange that. But since you're acting like a butt-hurt clown over a joke, I don't feel obligated to let you see it or even discuss my career with you.
 

sleeplz

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Keeps making the same grammar errors. Fails miserably at reading comprehension. Immediately puffs out the chest when confronted with a joke. So which bro in the white sunglasses is you again?

If lowlight needs to see my DD-214, I can arange that. But since you're acting like a butt-hurt clown over a joke, I don't feel obligated to let you see it or even discuss my career with you.
So you ask for my mos but won't divulge yours? Cmon man, why so butthurt. This is just an internet forum to me so grammatical righteousness isnt at the forefront. No one needs your dd 214 or cares. Thats my basic point of you constantly asking. Than you measure deployment patches and it makes you look like a joke. Seriously, no chest puffing; your daughter does that enough for both of us.
 

IrishWind

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NoVa
Dude: The point of the patches was they are not hard to earn. You just have to go get them. And seeing mid to senior level officers AND enlisted wandering around without one boggles the mind. The Navy doesn't use combat patches. But you learn to read another sailor's ribbon rack real fast. A sailor can have a few Achievement Medals, maybe even a Com or two. But if under it is only a NDSM and a GWOT-S, then you have to ask what are they really doing?

But since you are so hung up on my patches, just to let you know I would happily trade 6 of them if I could have worn this patch for the 12 months I was doing the Army's job for some soldier who was to chicken to leave the States. The 7th is the unit that impressed the hell out of me in their dedication to the mission, not to mention it's historical importance, and am proud to have their patch on the inside wall to my safe with my other patches I collected over the years.
 

Doc68

Almost a doctor
Belligerents
Minuteman
Feb 17, 2014
2,146
2,734
CO, Fort Carson
T
Dude: The point of the patches was they are not hard to earn. You just have to go get them. And seeing mid to senior level officers AND enlisted wandering around without one boggles the mind. The Navy doesn't use combat patches. But you learn to read another sailor's ribbon rack real fast. A sailor can have a few Achievement Medals, maybe even a Com or two. But if under it is only a NDSM and a GWOT-S, then you have to ask what are they really doing?

But since you are so hung up on my patches, just to let you know I would happily trade 6 of them if I could have worn this patch for the 12 months I was doing the Army's job for some soldier who was to chicken to leave the States. The 7th is the unit that impressed the hell out of me in their dedication to the mission, not to mention it's historical importance, and am proud to have their patch on the inside wall to my safe with my other patches I collected over the years.
7th what? Army group?
 

IrishWind

Laughing at the Absurdity of it all
Belligerents
Minuteman
Sep 23, 2003
441
344
NoVa
The 7th patch. It belongs to the 4thBde 101stDiv. AKA 506thPIR of Band of Brothers fame. It was nice walking into their TOC back in 2006 and having the feeling they had a handle of their battlespace. Compared to the CF on the other side of the Tigris at the time.