Annealing

[Chiller]

I would like to get some information on the concept of annealing brass. First how many people do it? How do you do it? Do you use Tempilaq or do you just time it? Do you just throw it in a deep socket? Do you quench it?

Would love to hear what people have done.

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Annealing

Been down this thread before.
Some good info on the site if you use the search function.
BTW, I found some info on a guy in TN that does ultra sonic cleaning and annealing. You might want to look on 6mmbr web site for that.

 

[Triggerhappy]

Re: Annealing

I asked the same question and here is a link to the thread. Now I do and I use the finger roll method and do not quench.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...618#Post1237618

 

[Chiller]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Been down this thread before.
Some good info on the site if you use the search function.
BTW, I found some info on a guy in TN that does ultra sonic cleaning and annealing. You might want to look on 6mmbr web site for that. </div></div>

Been there and read the information $25/100 cases is a bit steep.

Have Googled and read through many of the posts on this site and have yet to hear a conclusive answer.

Still looking for data.

 

[jr81452]

Re: Annealing

Try here

 

[6mmFan]

Re: Annealing

I have a pretty good setup for this. I spin the cases while keeping the head submerged in water so it doesn't get too hot. Maybe I could come by and show you some time.

 

[Hummer]

Re: Annealing

I am with Chiller on this one folks.

When I worked for the Army Small Cal Lab I had a friend down in Ammo Engineering who transferred to Picatinny from Frankford Arsenal when it closed and he was not only a ammo designer but a high power shooter of many years experience. His name was Marty Tyska who is now on the big range up yonder.

I had always heard annealing, dump in water, etc etc so I asked what what he did for his cases.

I was already aware of how Frankford ran the production cases down a chute between gas flames while they rotated as they moved along as the Chief of the Small Cal Lab had been an ammo engineer at Frankford as well and he had told me they ran down the line and dropped them in a buggy. I specifically asked him if they were dropped into water and he said "NO".

Marty said the best he came up with was to use a jewelers alcohol lamp and rotate the cases in the fingers while rotating the neck in the flames. He also explained to have the flame on the case body/shoulder and NOT THE NECK as he said the heat will run to the thinnest section first.

He was very careful to explain you don't want them to turn them red as that completely annealed the case and all you need to do was stress relieve them.

He rotated them in his fingers and said "Your fingers will tell you when it is time to let it go." I bought the jewelers alcohol lamps (one for a spare) and this worked for years but had drawbacks. It had to be stored in a airtight container as alcohol would evaporate out. Then the druggies started buying it to make whatever they make and it went from 2.50 a gallon to about 18.00 so the alcohol lamp and my alcohol stove won't be used again.

The biggest drawback was it was S L O W ! ! ! ! I could do maybe three cases per minute and this worked fine.

A number of years ago I read an article complete with SEM photographs of case grain structure that was "normal" and structure that was "ruined" due to too much heat. This article was in Precision Shooting and I sent it to Suasponte who has sent it to many folks.( he has that exotic high speed and I got Ma Bell)

This article has a complete explanation of how too much heat ruins cases. It was written by a metallurgist and I had another metallurgist who is also a shooter review his article and he concurred it was the correct dope.

Then about five or six years ago I was surfing 6br.com and found the case holders made on a lathe and the judicious use of a propane torch really speeded things up.

These exotic little holders are made from 3/4" round stock about three inches long. On one end turn it down to 3/8" about 1" long.

Remove the round piece and switch ends. Run 1/2" drill into other end and check occasionally while it is being drilled with a 308 case if you are going to load 308 and stop with about 1/4" of the case body still sticking out front. Note: you can do longer cases in these and they will of course stick out longer but assuming you have good holding ability you can use a 308 holder for 270,280,30.06,35 Whelen.

For 5.56 cases I use much small round stock just big enough to be drilled out and hold a 5.56 case.

I went to Home Depot and bought the smallest Burnzomatic tip I could get and READ THIS CLOSELY the green (short/fat) Coleman propane fuel bottles. Do not get the long thin tanks as they fall over very easily and it is a structure fire waiting to happen. The short/fat ones are perfect and provide a sturdy platform for the torch head.

I adjust the flame until the INNER bright blue sharp point flame is about 1" long(torch barely on).

Placing holder in variable speed drill I place case in holder and with bottom of drill on my stomach for support I tilt the drill over until the SHARP POINT FLAME is just touching the case at the lowest exposed point with the drill turning about 200 rpm. (I have a RPM counter and drill is a scosh faster than just turning.) My old Sears drill can be locked at a given speed so as to not get my trigger finger overstressed.

With the small blue flame contacting the case at the lowest exposed point I start to count estimated one second counts and at end of a count to 6 (30 cal cases) I pull the case neck back through the flame for perhaps 1/2 second, point drill down and drop it on towel. This used to be a old T shirt but I found a nice big white towel in the road the other day and will now upgrade to it since it has been washed.

Oh by the way ignition temp of cotton is 482F and I haven't ever ignited a cotton T shirt or sweat shirt.

When the case hits the towel you can see it turn blue on the shoulder/neck. I use a LC Match case as a temperature color gage. If the blue is brighter I did not do it long enough. If it is darker it was a bit too long.

Contrary to popular belief the high heat does not continue down the case body to the head after being removed from flame. Yes if you wait a few seconds it will get hot enough that you don't want to pick it up but no where near the heat generated by the case during firing. As the case hits the towel you can actually reach down and pick it up (anyone want to guess which end to grab??) and toss it to another area and not get burned.

How hot does a case get upon firing? A 5.56 case is approximately 170 degrees when ejected by AR and how is this determined? Take a trash can liner bag (PVC) and place it on the ground and eject your 5.56 cases onto the bag. The melting point of PVC is 176 deg F. I believe you will find the cases will deform the bag just short of the melting point and the PVC will not stick to the bag. A google search says Third Degree burns occur about 155-160 degrees F on most folks at one second exposure. The threshold of pain temperature is about 130 deg F.
Thusly if you pick up brass just dumped out and you drop it and don't experience burns the case head is about 130.
So we have:

Pain at 130F
3rd Degree burn at 155F
Case ejection temp on 5.56 approximatley 170F
PVC Melt point 176F.

I do not use gloves in this operation and assuming you are coordinated there is no reason to touch the case holder which of course gets heated every ten seconds and it will get hot.

Recently I have started stress relieving the cases as they come out of the Thumlers Tumbler after separating the media I have a pan full of wet cases in need of drying.

I have started coming in and stress relieving the necks with the remaining water here and there inside/outside the cases. If there is water up around the shoulder area I see it turn to steam and evaporate. I pick up cases after doing this and still find water droplets inside the cases and primer pockets.

Dumping all the cases in a pile creates its own heat so to speak and this residual heat helps dry the cases shortening the drying time in the sun or on the black plastic outside. I use black vinyl PE sheeting in summer time for a cheap heat source for drying. Dump cases on it and let the sun heat the PVC and dry the cases at the same time. I also have a nylon mesh clothing storage bag from REI I put a couple hundred wet cases in and lay over heat outlet(from floor) over night.

Now that I have a nice big towel, I will take them out and expose them to the sun.

As some of us know there is no prettier sight than a pile of newly cleaned shiney brass from the Thumlers Mod B with the perfect blue tint on the necks/shoulders gleaming in the sun.

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Annealing


Have Googled and read through many of the posts on this site and have yet to hear a conclusive answer.

Still looking for data. [/quote]

There's the answer!
There appears to be no conclusive answer. I bought the cheap little Hornady case annealer. It comes with case spinners and tempalaq. Have not tried it because, after much banter here, am still confused on the proper method.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Annealing

I like the idea of the automated annealers. They are expensive, but probably pay for themselves in the increased number of firings per case as well as all the time put into initial case prep (though I know a lot of folks do zero work, so maybe not as big of a deal to them).

Ken Light's unit has been around a while: http://kenlightmfg.com/products.html (bootom of page)

There is also a new one on the market: http://www.bench-source.com/id81.html

The Brass-O-Matic is no longer around, but that looked to be a great unit.

I like the automated approach because it guarantees consistency and after you have ruined a couple of cases trying to get the first couple right, you don't have to worry about under-annealing or over-annealing again. You can run about 500 cases an hour on one of these units, which is another big advantage.

For people doing zero case prep, this pays for itself after 8,000 rounds, give or take... that is a lot.

For people who are measuring neck thickness, culling, turning necks, etc., the extended case life from annealing can save time with an automated machine. The other advantage is that neck tension will be more consistent from firing to firing as the stress relieved brass will all have the same or similar "springiness." If you think about it, we measure neck tension in terms of unloaded versus loaded neck diameter, but when we do this, we are assuming the same metallurgical properties for each case. .003" for a work hardened piece of brass is not the same as .003" for a fresh piece of brass.

Might annealing make an accuracy difference... it seems like it could, but who knows?

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Annealing

Get the Hornady annealing kit, and you'll be GTG. All you need is a drill and propane torch. It works well.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Annealing

Chiller - I paint the inside of the necks with Tempilaq and spend them in a holder in front of the torch until the paint disappears and then let them cool on their own with out quenching. My method works for me.

How I anneal so my case necks don't split

 

[Swan]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Been down this thread before.
Some good info on the site if you use the search function.
BTW, I found some info on a guy in TN that does ultra sonic cleaning and annealing. You might want to look on 6mmbr web site for that.</div></div>

Lol! First time I've seen a post recommending a Moderator use the search function!

 

[Chiller]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Been down this thread before.
Some good info on the site if you use the search function.
BTW, I found some info on a guy in TN that does ultra sonic cleaning and annealing. You might want to look on 6mmbr web site for that.</div></div>

Lol! First time I've seen a post recommending a Moderator use the search function!

</div></div>

Problem being I had used the search function and google and 6mmBR and and and......so

 

[ALMAORFE]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Been down this thread before.
Some good info on the site if you use the search function.
BTW, I found some info on a guy in TN that does ultra sonic cleaning and annealing. You might want to look on 6mmbr web site for that.</div></div>

Lol! First time I've seen a post recommending a Moderator use the search function!

</div></div>

Problem being I had used the search function and google and 6mmBR and and and......so

</div></div>

I saw that this morning and had me laughing. LOL

I'm sure you asked Dave before starting a thread right?

 

[Chiller]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ALMAORFE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Been down this thread before.
Some good info on the site if you use the search function.
BTW, I found some info on a guy in TN that does ultra sonic cleaning and annealing. You might want to look on 6mmbr web site for that.</div></div>

Lol! First time I've seen a post recommending a Moderator use the search function!

</div></div>

Problem being I had used the search function and google and 6mmBR and and and......so

</div></div>

I saw that this morning and had me laughing. LOL

I'm sure you asked Dave before starting a thread right?

</div></div>

lol

Was there really a question there..????

and you still <span style="font-size: 26pt">suck</span>....you dive the rifle well....

 

[Unsichtbar]

Re: Annealing

I have Ken Light works fine for me , I made set up gigs for the angles of the torches on different cals, to speed setup. I like the idea of the plate being a heat sink and the boiling water in the center to preheat. Some of my friends preferred the unit type that allowed control of the exposure time. The Ken Light machine has a constant speed, torch angle and flow adjusted to regulate exposure. No quenching.

Allot of people around here have a heat a rod set up, torch heats the rod and they slip the case neck over the rod to heat uniformly, remove after color reaches below the shoulder.
reaches below the shoulder

 

[6mmFan]

Re: Annealing

Very nice report Hummer, thank you.

A long time ago when I thought quenching with water was required, I epoxied a round bread pan centered on a lazy susan. Centered in the bread pan I made a small aluminum nub for my primer pockets to sit on. I poured water until only the head of a case would be submerged and then I would spin the lazy susan while running a torch along the shoulder of the case for a few seconds. When I was finished with the case I would just knock it over into the water.

There are some things about Hummers method I like better. First of all it is unnecessary to get your brass wet. Also I believe it is better to anneal a fired case, and then size it - which is not the way I have been doing it.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get the Hornady annealing kit, and you'll be GTG. All you need is a drill and propane torch. It works well.
</div></div>

does the 475 in the kit work well?

 

[308sako]

Re: Annealing

deleted in protest!

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Annealing

All I need is my search function. Well, all I need is my search function and my Counter Sniper scope. Well........
If Chiller ain't finding the best info here where the hell will he find it?
BTW, glad I could get a laugh out of you guys. When I tried annealing I burnt the Tempalaq and it just ran down the side of the case. Cases didn't get too hot. The paint dries really fast on the applicator and causes it to go on unevenly. But I am going to keep on trying.

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Annealing

BTW. The Hornady annealing kit does not have a case holder for WSM size cases. I called Hornady and they kindly made me one (for $12.00).

 

[ALMAORFE]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">I have only been barely playing with annealing and therefore have no creedance in my own opinion!</span></span></span>

However, my observation so far is that it is clearly an advantage and notice the easier seating etc as mentioned above. I am leaving the computer now to try some assorted caliber cases which were shot today, I will not quench, this time.

Since I first posted, I just was able to anneal over 70 cases from 6 calibers, using a small deep socket for the .223 and 7.62 x 39 (Winchester) and a spark plug socket for .257 Ackely (pictured), .308, .30-06, .375 H&H

I truly love the older Winchester cases for the color they show so easily. Using the socket type approach to rotate in a cordless screwdriver/drill is extremely easy, and uniform. I no longer see a need to quench.

</div></div>

Wow, those are the Ackleys we shot today?

 

[Chiller]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">I have only been barely playing with annealing and therefore have no creedance in my own opinion!</span></span></span>

However, my observation so far is that it is clearly an advantage and notice the easier seating etc as mentioned above. I am leaving the computer now to try some assorted caliber cases which were shot today, I will not quench, this time.

Since I first posted, I just was able to anneal over 70 cases from 6 calibers, using a small deep socket for the .223 and 7.62 x 39 (Winchester) and a spark plug socket for .257 Ackely (pictured), .308, .30-06, .375 H&H

I truly love the older Winchester cases for the color they show so easily. Using the socket type approach to rotate in a cordless screwdriver/drill is extremely easy, and uniform. I no longer see a need to quench.

</div></div>

Just to confirm you are holding the flame on the shoulder?

 

[Chiller]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW. The Hornady annealing kit does not have a case holder for WSM size cases. I called Hornady and they kindly made me one (for $12.00). </div></div>

Thank you for the heads up.

 

[distantfoe]

Re: Annealing

Anyone tried the lead pot method of annealing? Seems like it's the most controllable without investing in an annealing machine.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Annealing

tag

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Annealing

Just yesterday I got my Handloader Magazine in the mail, and one article was about annealing. I fell asleep before finishing the article, but the temp they said the brass needs to get to is 700 degrees. So, the 475 degrees I've been doing may not be enough. I'll finish the article tonight and report back.

 

[mdesign]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Just to confirm you are holding the flame on the shoulder? </div></div>

I have the same question. I center the blue flame of the torch on the bottom of the neck where the shoulder starts and my brass does not show the color your did.

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Annealing

Terry

 

[Queequeg]

Re: Annealing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suasponte</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Terry </div></div>

This man and Kombayoth were who I went to school on for this! When 3 of 40 brand new BHA cases emerged with neck cracks, I wanted to make sure I would get more than one more firing out of the remaining 37. After using the above template and the methods described by Kombayotch, I am at 7 cycles of that BHA brass with no further cracks.

I no longer feel the need to quench either. The socket is sufficient heat sink. I aim the needle point of the blue flame at the junction of the neck to shoulder and count to 6 for .308 brass.