So i received my new benchsource annealer and i have started to anneal my brass and i seem to have a problem telling if its good or not. I have the 750 templaq running two torches with the case about 1/2"-3/4" from pencil tip of blue flame(mid neck)(6xc norma), with a cycle time of 3.25 sec (red tray image) 3.75 sec (green tray image). The templaq is turning clear right before it leaves but i am not seeing hardly any discoloration of the case. Now i know it varies from manufacturer to manufacture and i have read people say it may show very little change, yet every image i look at its obvious the discoloration (annealed not new brass). I have also watched a few videos on youtube mainly the benchsource video by accurate shooter and it shows the brass giving off an orange flame right before/as leaving which i thought was bad. The more i read and watch the more i realize how many different opinions there are. Any help would be appreciated.
Another annealing analysis
- Thread starter STI_1911_Guy
- Start date
case color and depth color mean nothing. Trust in your templaq it is as close as you need to be. Get the room as dark as you can, you should see the neck "just start" to glow right as it leaves the flame. NOT GLOWING but just starting to change color. Good luck.
Diego
Diego
I read on an earlier thread, a couple of months ago, were as a gentleman recited many scientific stats and tables relative to annealing. I believe he was a Metallurgist? All stats were pretty advanced for me, but the one thing I got of it and is much easier (along with the Tempilaq) was that when the flame starts to turn orange, you've been in the flame to long. I believe he said that this is the zinc leaving the brass, not good.
I have been relatively successful following the above advice, and I concur with diego-ted that you should see a light light light brick red, in a dark room, just as it leaves the flame. The brick red I look for is "faint" and almost immediately gone as I come "out" of the flame. It is not that hard to accomplish this setting.
Worthy of mentioning and I have not heard many talk of this, is the different brass manufacturers are obvious to me that different time and temps are needed. Specifically I have been getting 3 different 300 RUMs (Remington Brass) up and going as well as 300 Win (RWS Brass) and the different requirements were significant. I really found that the RWS best gave me the best above mentioned results when I lowered the flame and left it in a bit longer. I don't see any need to rush any of the brass, and by that I mean to hot of a flame. Unfortunately, there is not a buzzer that goes off and tells you your doing it right, but I am comfortable in the results I have achieved and hope this "get a feeling" explanation is helpful to you. Thanks
I have been relatively successful following the above advice, and I concur with diego-ted that you should see a light light light brick red, in a dark room, just as it leaves the flame. The brick red I look for is "faint" and almost immediately gone as I come "out" of the flame. It is not that hard to accomplish this setting.
Worthy of mentioning and I have not heard many talk of this, is the different brass manufacturers are obvious to me that different time and temps are needed. Specifically I have been getting 3 different 300 RUMs (Remington Brass) up and going as well as 300 Win (RWS Brass) and the different requirements were significant. I really found that the RWS best gave me the best above mentioned results when I lowered the flame and left it in a bit longer. I don't see any need to rush any of the brass, and by that I mean to hot of a flame. Unfortunately, there is not a buzzer that goes off and tells you your doing it right, but I am comfortable in the results I have achieved and hope this "get a feeling" explanation is helpful to you. Thanks
I ditched one of the torches on my Benchsource and shoot for the blue tip of flame just off the middle of the shoulder and am using 700 Tempilac. 4.2 seconds for 6x47L and 4.6 seconds for 6.5 Saum and 4.9 seconds for 30-375R. There is slight blueish-maroon discoloration about .3" down the body of the case but nothing like a Lapua case looks like from the factory.
I did a test for elasticity using the vise grip method, the benchsource with Tempilac and looking for the hint of red glow in a pitch black dark room, all coincided.
Many of the videos on youtube are basically showing nimrods ruining their brass as they judge by color alone.
I did a test for elasticity using the vise grip method, the benchsource with Tempilac and looking for the hint of red glow in a pitch black dark room, all coincided.
Many of the videos on youtube are basically showing nimrods ruining their brass as they judge by color alone.
The real test is whether the case neck can be squeezed with a pair of pliers slightly yet still spring back. I'd run a couple of cases that are ready to discard due to large primer pockets through the process and look for the right amount of heat that way. Tempilac or a Tempilstik crayon are great but there's not just heat involved. It has to be applied long enough to actually anneal the metal.
Might also be worthwhile to try sizing a case or two and see how much "spring back" one gets when sizing with a known size bushing. If you size with a .335" bushing, for example, and your case neck measures much larger after sized, the case neck wasn't really annealed.
Might also be worthwhile to try sizing a case or two and see how much "spring back" one gets when sizing with a known size bushing. If you size with a .335" bushing, for example, and your case neck measures much larger after sized, the case neck wasn't really annealed.
750 Templaq?
I use 650 at shoulder/body junction and 400 at the case head. I always see some "discoloration" if you will after annealing but never very far down the case (as with Lapua). You will notice that it is a little uneven, so to speak, but Dave (owner of Bench-Source) says he designed it that way. The longest I run anything is 4.8 sec for WW 300WM and my 7MM08 (or similar 308 based) get 4.2 seconds or so depending on who made it.
BTW, I see a slight difference in coloration where the heat has been. The 6XC is a shorter case and I am afraid you may have overheated the case head by "melting" the 750 to clear. That may, IMHO, be why you are not seeing that classic "Lapua look".
I use 650 at shoulder/body junction and 400 at the case head. I always see some "discoloration" if you will after annealing but never very far down the case (as with Lapua). You will notice that it is a little uneven, so to speak, but Dave (owner of Bench-Source) says he designed it that way. The longest I run anything is 4.8 sec for WW 300WM and my 7MM08 (or similar 308 based) get 4.2 seconds or so depending on who made it.
BTW, I see a slight difference in coloration where the heat has been. The 6XC is a shorter case and I am afraid you may have overheated the case head by "melting" the 750 to clear. That may, IMHO, be why you are not seeing that classic "Lapua look".
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I just checked for spring back and i can see the case mouth spring back one i squeezed it. It appears to be pretty apparent spring back so it should be good there. I am also trying to judge this by accuracy a little and why i bought the annealer was to extend the life or accurate life of the brass since its kinda hard to come by 6xc. This was shot 6 times and accuracy was pretty much shit, i could get around .25-.6 MOA on a very consistent basis with the first and second loading then it satarted to get worse but now i cant get anything under 1 moa. The round count is only about 800 and the primer pockets still feel ok. Is it possible its just time for new brass?
You may have another issue that isn't brass related. Something like carbon of copper buildup at the front of the chamber or in the throat area.
Before you give up on the brass, try cleaning the chamber, especially the neck area with some good carbon cutter (slip 2000 is great) and a brush (I use a 38 cal pistol bore brush to clean the neck area of my rifle's chamber). Then work over the bore with some J-B Bore Brite, paying close attention to the throat and first 6 inches of the bore. This can bring back some lost accuracy due to the fouling buildup that's slowly been accumulating. Much of this isn't always visible unless you have a bore-scope.
I just thought that myself and just got done trying the following:
3 series of foaming bore cleaner
Nylon brush
JB Bore shine
Kroil
I tried the brass again and i got a little better results. I ordered some loaded ammo from tubb since i cant find any brass so we will see what happens with that. Might not shoot great in my rifle but should help me decide what im seeing. Thanks for the advice.
3 series of foaming bore cleaner
Nylon brush
JB Bore shine
Kroil
I tried the brass again and i got a little better results. I ordered some loaded ammo from tubb since i cant find any brass so we will see what happens with that. Might not shoot great in my rifle but should help me decide what im seeing. Thanks for the advice.
As the throat wears, especially with the bigger 6mm's, you need to adjust seating depth. Also with wear you'll loose velocity-then needing to bring velocity back up. On top of that if you are using temp sensitive powders and Secant ogive VLD's there's a little tail chasing going on.
I learned this the hard way with my 6x47L. I changed over to 115 Dtacs, then changed to 105 hybrids later and both with H-4831SC, life has been easier.
I learned this the hard way with my 6x47L. I changed over to 115 Dtacs, then changed to 105 hybrids later and both with H-4831SC, life has been easier.
Excellent! Done any changing on the load since you worked it up?
Been through 3 barrels on mine. 2cnd and 3rd I was using DTACS. 4th only has 300 through it and 5th 80 rounds, hybrids will be used on both so I'll be interested in how long they go before I need to do some more load work.
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Yes i did some work up since i bought a new 8lb jug of 4350 but it was using the 6th time fired brass. I had some issues on the 4th loading and then since but i switched powder lots a couple times and bought an annealer thinking i could extend case life a little but its looking like the brass might just be shot. Cant get it to group consistently for shit.
As has already been said - trying to judge by the colour of the case will lead to problems.
I have found that if I anneal my cases within a day or so of cleaning them with Stainless Steel media I get very little colour change, if I anneal the same cases a couple of weeks after cleaning then I get the classic new case look. This can only be due to surface oxidation, everything else is the same.
I have found that if I anneal my cases within a day or so of cleaning them with Stainless Steel media I get very little colour change, if I anneal the same cases a couple of weeks after cleaning then I get the classic new case look. This can only be due to surface oxidation, everything else is the same.
